What's the footprint for a RAS "Radial Arm Saw"?

[Mike Olson]

I currently have a 12" sliding compound miter saw which is working fine but i'm a bit put off by the footprint it requires. It uses a 42" deep by 46" wide area. I have to angle it off to one side when i'm done so I don't keep knocking into the table angle adjusting arm when I walk by. it's 38" deep when angled out of the way.

I'm wondering if anyone out there has a 10" or 12" RAS and could tell me what the footprint is that it uses. If it's comparable, then I might try and pick one up on craigslist as a replacement for my mitersaw.

Thanks for any input you can provide.

Mike

[Don Jarvie]

Probably need 30 by 35 or so. Depends on what size. May need a bit more than 35 if you go over 12 for a RAS.

[Roy Turbett]

I have a 1957 DeWalt GWI built into my bench. Its about 34" wide by 26" deep and is considered one of the best RAS ever made. It has a 1 1/2 hp motor that can be switched between 115 v and 230 v. When its not in use, you can move the arm to the back and still use the bench.

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[Bill Orbine]

I currently have a 12" sliding compound miter saw which is working fine but i'm a bit put off by the footprint it requires. It uses a 42" deep by 46" wide area. I have to angle it off to one side when i'm done so I don't keep knocking into the table angle adjusting arm when I walk by. it's 38" deep when angled out of the way.

I'm wondering if anyone out there has a 10" or 12" RAS and could tell me what the footprint is that it uses. If it's comparable, then I might try and pick one up on craigslist as a replacement for my mitersaw.

Thanks for any input you can provide.

Mike

Curiously, What 12" compound sliding miter saw takes up roughly 13.5 square feet of floor space? I mean, my 12"scms takes up less than 5 sf space when closed up. But that's when stowed away in storage. My 14" RAS takes about 13-14 sf of space... it's a retracting arm type saw.

[Mike Olson]

Curiously, What 12" compound sliding miter saw takes up roughly 13.5 square feet of floor space? I mean, my 12"scms takes up less than 5 sf space when closed up. But that's when stowed away in storage. My 14" RAS takes about 13-14 sf of space... it's a retracting arm type saw.

It's the Harbor Freight 12". Those bars force it to sit way out front and swing wide from side to side.
http://www.bigdaddyoworkshop.com/_/rsrc/1400109424244/Home/Mitersaw%20shelf.JPG

[Mike Olson]

I have a 1957 DeWalt GWI built into my bench. Its about 34" wide by 26" deep and is considered one of the best RAS ever made. It has a 1 1/2 hp motor that can be switched between 115 v and 230 v. When its not in use, you can move the arm to the back and still use the bench.

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Thanks for the info, that's a very nice looking setup.

[Art Mann]

I had a Craftsman RAS and it takes up considerably more space than my Hitachi slider. In your case, it is possible to rotate the slider arm to one side to minimize how far it sticks out into the room. A RAS sticks out equally as far but it isn't practical to turn the arm to the side all the time. Even if you could, the table sticks out to the end of the saw arm. Recently, I bought a new slider from Bosch (GCM12SD) that uses articulated arms to support the head rather than tubes. The space behind the fence is only a few inches. This is an expensive saw but I have been wanting one for a long time. My Hitachi broke at the same time the Bosch went on sale at Amazon for $100 off - a perfect excuse to upgrade. Another option is one model of slider from Hitachi. The head slides on tubes like other sliders but the tubes are located to the side of the saw rather than behind it. This also allows the fence to be placed very close to the wall. I think Lowes Home Center stocks this model so you can go see it easily if you are near one of their stores.

[ShawnE Curry]

My Hitachi broke

Another reason to choose an old DeWalt RAS! I have my grandfather's 1959 MBF - thing is built like a tank.

I just built a folding sawbuck from 2x4's, and used a lot of half-lap joinery on it, so I needed to make a whole bunch of short crosscut dadoes. Could do it on the tablesaw, but that would require a lot more setup than was needed for the RAS. Mounted the 1/2" dado stack, made a fresh cut in the fence, use that to position stop blocks, cut all the dadoes in under an hour. Lets see you do that with a scms!

[Floyd Mah]

Since you seem to have worked out how much space you need on that blue shelf (in front of and in back of the saw), if I were trying to make that saw work, I would modify the table just a bit more. Place hinges at the back of the support and drop the table down when it isn't in use and put a table top in its place when not using the saw. Bolt the saw to the table. I suspect that you are currently not just taking the CMS down, when not in use, is because the saw is very heavy, about 60 pounds if I recall correctly.

[Art Mann]

Another reason to choose an old DeWalt RAS! I have my grandfather's 1959 MBF - thing is built like a tank.

I just built a folding sawbuck from 2x4's, and used a lot of half-lap joinery on it, so I needed to make a whole bunch of short crosscut dadoes. Could do it on the tablesaw, but that would require a lot more setup than was needed for the RAS. Mounted the 1/2" dado stack, made a fresh cut in the fence, use that to position stop blocks, cut all the dadoes in under an hour. Lets see you do that with a scms!

My Hitachi broke because I wrapped a piece of aluminum threshold molding between the blade and the aluminum shroud. It broke the blade guard. It was a stupid mistake where I didn't secure what was being cut properly. I have probably cut many thousands of linear feet of 1 and 2 inch mostly hardwoods over the decade i have owned the Hitachi and have no complaints about its durability or performance. I have also cut thousands of pieces of crown, case and base molding with the saw - a task for which a RAS is not well suited. My personal preference is to have the ability to cut molding rather than the ability to cut dados if I could choose only one tool. I have several different ways to cut dados. By the way, the Bosch and Hitachi saws I suggested hasveprovisions for limiting the cut depth to a specific dimension so as to cut dados with it, although I doubt I would use that feature.

The original poster was interested in saving space and that is what prompted his original question. Your photo shows that your RAS is taking up about the same amount of space as a typical sliding compound miter saw. I suggested what I thought might be an improvement in the amount of space required.

The fact is, I would own and use an old Dewalt or Delta Rockwell or Walker Turner or any of the other great old brands of RAS if I could find one. My shop is large enough to accommodate. I watch Craigslist closely for tool deals and I haven't seen a worthy RAS for sale within 100 miles of my home in several years. Buying one that is new and is the quality of yours would be cost prohibitive if I could even find one. Unless the OP lives in an area full of woodworkers, buying a used saw that is worth owning (not Craftsman!) may not be possible. You obviously don't want to sell yours.

[ShawnE Curry]

That looks to be roughly the size of the table on my RAS. I think the total footprint is roughly 36" wide by 30" deep.

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[ShawnE Curry]

I have also cut thousands of pieces of crown, case and base molding with the saw - a task for which a RAS is not well suited.
[...]
Your photo shows that your RAS is taking up about the same amount of space as a typical sliding compound miter saw.
[...]
The fact is, I would own and use an old Dewalt or Delta Rockwell or Walker Turner or any of the other great old brands of RAS if I could find one.

Most reviews I've seen of chop saws and SCMS's usually knock their accuracy in a bevel or compound setup. These old cast iron RAS's do not suffer from this. I use all sorts of sacrificial fences with it for different purposes, and I've never had an issue cutting moldings. A simple cradle jig keeps the piece in the right orientation.

The photo posted earlier wasn't mine, although I've now posted a picture of mine for comparison. I have the MBF - baby brother to the GWI. The footprint is roughly 36" wide by 30" deep.

I'm surprised you're not able to find one - there are a couple different ones listed on CL in my area. They were very popular saws in their day, and they *never* die. I actually dropped mine about 2-1/2 feet loading it onto the truck, because it wasn't secured to the stand; needed a realignment but everything was fine.

[Mike Olson]

Since you seem to have worked out how much space you need on that blue shelf (in front of and in back of the saw), if I were trying to make that saw work, I would modify the table just a bit more. Place hinges at the back of the support and drop the table down when it isn't in use and put a table top in its place when not using the saw. Bolt the saw to the table. I suspect that you are currently not just taking the CMS down, when not in use, is because the saw is very heavy, about 60 pounds if I recall correctly.

Because it is heavy and it's only a few inches less if I were to fold it down due to the 2x4 the shelf sits on and the height of the saw even when locked down like shown in the picture.

[Mike Olson]

I'm surprised you're not able to find one - there are a couple different ones listed on CL in my area. They were very popular saws in their day, and they *never* die. I actually dropped mine about 2-1/2 feet loading it onto the truck, because it wasn't secured to the stand; needed a realignment but everything was fine.

I'm in your area and am now, on the hunt!

[HANK METZ]

"...I have also cut thousands of pieces of crown, case and base molding with the saw - a task for which a RAS is not well suited...."

Well, actually the radial saw, be it DeWalt, Delta or others was the tool of choice for thousands of lumber yards themselves cutting thousands of pieces of trim, millwork, 1X and 2X, etc. stock. The saw type played a prominent role in the construction of Levittown, and other mas- produced affordable housing stratagem. The DeWalt "Moto Miterbox"- the original spawn of all contemporary miter saws (ca. 1940's) was originally designed as an dedicated, narrow- scoped version to answer trim and finished carpentry needs.
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[Art Mann]

If you are going to install crown or casing or base molding, you don't do it at the lumber yard. If you just want to cut off a shorter piece to sell at a lumber yard, almost any saw will do just fine. I have been around new house construction most of my life and I have yet to see a finish carpenter lug around a RAS.

Out of curiosity, I just looked again on Craigslist in the three largest towns that are close enough for me to drive to in a few hours - Birmingham, Nashville and Chattanooga. I only found one Dewalt 105 miles away that might have been worth buying. I couldn't tell because the picture and description were bad. It was $300. I did find probably 50 or so Craftsman saws that are no better than the one I just sold.

Like I said, if I could find a good RAS, I might buy it. I have the room for it. But, it takes up the same amount of room on a shop floor as a SCMS and that is what the OP was originally concerned about.

[Mike Olson]

Out of curiosity, I just looked again on Craigslist in the three largest towns that are close enough for me to drive to in a few hours - Birmingham, Nashville and Chattanooga. I only found one Dewalt 105 miles away that might have been worth buying. I couldn't tell because the picture and description were bad. It was $300. I did find probably 50 or so Craftsman saws that are no better than the one I just sold.

Like I said, if I could find a good RAS, I might buy it. I have the room for it. But, it takes up the same amount of room on a shop floor as a SCMS and that is what the OP was originally concerned about.

There are 6 Dewalt RAS in just the 2 cities near me. one is really nice but it's an old post and the person has not responded yet. They are all 100 - 150. Like you said, there are TONS of craftsman ones that i'd rather stay away from.

The takes up the same amount of room as a scms isn't technically correct. As the saw slides all the way back and you can have the surface the same height as all the rest of your stationary tools you can share that work surface, where the scms can't share any of it's space. coming to that conclusion is why i'm planning on replacing my scms for a RAS.

[Art Mann]

I hope you find a good one!

[jack forsberg]

I cant see you replacing one for the other but putting them side by side sharing the same table does not take any more room. I have a 14" RAS a 12" mitersaw and large drill press that all use the same table and take about 6 feet of wall.

here is my set up. you will see the RAS miter saw drill press near the end sorry


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kjgit-Gt5E&list=UUI6jpIs2zjN9DmVvK2ZAWXA

[Art Mann]

The video player says "This video is private". Hope you can fix it so I can see your setup.

[Art Mann]

Video is working now. You have a very nice RAS!

[jack forsberg]

Video is working now. You have a very nice RAS!

That's a Delta 14" 40C turret arm i picked up for $143 and i like them over the Dewalts because the controls for the fence/rise and fall/angles are all up front. the carege rides on replaceable harden drill rod and not the milled ways in the arm like the dewalts. Lots of old dewalts with lots a ware in the fist bit of travel that would need a machine shop to bring back into spec. The Dewalts have just as much to blame as the craftsman's in giving the RAS a bad name for accuracy.


the Delta 40C in a nice little compact saw but if you have the room then I would get one of My Wadkin CC 18" cross cut. a killer saw. It will take cutters or stacked dado's up to 4" wide . these thing don't ware out a bit.

you build a timber fence and the control are bolted into the table. for 32" cross cuts.

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/side.jpg


it did come as a portable unit though you need a train track:cool:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c258/Real_Scrit/UK%20Workshop%20Images/PortableSaw.jpg


so nice i pick up 2 for $400 that came with all the tooling (4 16" dado stacks and 4 18" blades)

they come in at just over ton each so there not for everyone:rolleyes:

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/ImageUploadedByTapatalk1383183956095126_zps5cf7986 3.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2K0BnOhLI0&list=UUI6jpIs2zjN9DmVvK2ZAWXA

[Mike Olson]

:eek: drool....... I wish I had the room

[Mike Olson]

I cannot get the smile off my face!!!

saw a post on craigslist from 21 days ago about an estate sale and radial saw was listed. called the number after work and went out there at 7:30 and just got back.
The guy was older and had a friend put it up for him and he couldn't tell me anything about it besides it's old so I went there having no idea what he would have...

$125 for the saw, a bunch of blades and a 7" dado blade.

Jack, I can see what you were talking about with the drill rod that it rides on. very nice...

I don't know a model number on this thing, all I can find is a serial number which I posted in the pictures below.

Edit: forgot the pictures
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ndVVPpVIIzI/U_aZACT5rtI/AAAAAAAATKc/ml6lB1zioYU/w1167-h875-no/IMG_3778.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hWNxLyXEjAs/U_aZAMbdWlI/AAAAAAAATKc/NdGc1ucSiog/w1167-h875-no/IMG_3775.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7a_LZ8IY0sU/U_aZAGoUJUI/AAAAAAAATKc/lFwybAIQWfE/w1167-h875-no/IMG_3773.JPG

[jack forsberg]

good for you

[Mike Olson]

Well, after hunting through Vintagemachinery.org I figured out why I couldn't find a model number... because it doesn't have one. This is simply known as Delta 10" Radial Saw. The user guide I found that looks exactly like it is from 1962

It looks a lot like the 30-C except the top of the motor is different and my knobs are not red. Also, all the 30-C's serial numbers start with MX3 and mine starts with MX2 so i'm guessing this is the predecessor to the 30-C

[Roy Turbett]

That's a Delta 14" 40C turret arm i picked up for $143 and i like them over the Dewalts because the controls for the fence/rise and fall/angles are all up front. the carege rides on replaceable harden drill rod and not the milled ways in the arm like the dewalts. Lots of old dewalts with lots a ware in the fist bit of travel that would need a machine shop to bring back into spec. The Dewalts have just as much to blame as the craftsman's in giving the RAS a bad name for accuracy.


Jack - I have to disagree with you in regard your comment that the DeWalts "have just as much to blame as the Craftsman's in giving the RAS a bad name for accuracy." I've rebuilt two DeWalt MBF's and a GWI and I was able to adjust all three of them to within .005" at 90 degrees. I sold the two MBF's but still have the GWI that is pictured above and it has remained spot on accurate. The GWI replaced a Craftsman because I couldn't keep it accurate. The reason the DeWalts are more accurate is because the locking mechanism is a machined wedge on a lever as opposed to a spring loaded ball and locking lever on the Craftsman. This setup almost eliminates any "end of play". I also disagree somewhat with your comment that "Lots of old DeWalts (have) lots of wear in the first bit travel." It is true that some DeWalts in production environments develop this condition but it is not all that common. It is, however, something to check before you buy by running your finger along the ways. I also moved the fence locking mechanism on my GWI to the front by mounting some cams on threaded rods underneath the table similar to some Delta models. The cams are available through Rockler.

I recently picked up a rare 1951 Delta 40B that I'm going to restore. I like that it will take a 14" blade and the turret arm lets you use more of the table. It also has detents for common miters that are lacking on some of the other Delta models. One drawback to the Delta 40B is that parts are going to be much harder to find than they are for the DeWalt. Fortunately, the saw is complete except for the anti-kickback pawl. I'm probably going to have to rebuild the carriage bearings.

[ShawnE Curry]

That thing is sweet!! Good luck on the refurb. Old Woodworking Machines http://owwm.com [EDIT: guess it's vintagemachinery now?] was a good resource for me. Looks like a rare bird, but I'm sure you'll have a bunch of guys over there who can help. Looks like you'll want a new table. Does she run? I'm guessing she'll need some new motor bearings if it hasn't been run in a while. Looks pretty complete though - the kickback pawl is missing a lot of times from the dewalts.

Very nice score. I'll have to keep an eye out for pics of the restoration.

[HANK METZ]

..."I also disagree somewhat with your comment that "Lots of old DeWalts (have) lots of wear in the first bit travel."...

And I agree also, on both statements. Inexperience in machine tool usage leads some to believe that normal wear is somehow indicative of a design fault. The most common example would be metalworking lathes whose ways will almost always show more wear at the chuck end rather than the tail simply because that is where most of the work is performed. I have found DeWalts easy to restore, even when they should have been sold for scrap, and far and away they were the best of the best ever produced. DeWalt MBF restoration (http://people.delphiforums.com/perristalsis/MBF_%20Saw_Restoration/DeWalt_MBF_Saw_Restoration.htm).

[Mike Olson]

Here is a snippet of the owners manual on adjusting the guides. It's crazy easy, can be done 4 times, and they are easily replaced.
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Hank, that's a very nice restore. I'm not yet sure how involved I will get with my restore. Everything seems to work fine on it. The motor runs fine and the motor bearings seem to be fantastic as the blade was still spinning after I tested it out the entire time we were discussing the price and looking at the other tools he had for sale. There is no play on the motor shaft, the blade remains stiff with no wobble. This weekend I'll start trying to figure out the alignment and new table.

I'll have to sign up on the vintagemachinery website, didn't realize there was a forum there.

Oh, and as for the answer to my origional question. This radial arm saw takes up much less room than my scms.

- My scms set at 90* sticks out from the wall 44" and has 12" length of cut.
~ This Radial Arm saw set at 90* sticks out from the wall 33" and has a 14" length of cut.
- The scms has 12" of surface out front but it's so far out from the wall it can't really be shared at all.
~ The Radial Arm saw has 16" of that front table which can be shared space with other tools

The Only thing the Radial arm saw does not win at is moving from 90* to 45*. It takes maybe 5 additional seconds.

[Myk Rian]

The motor runs fine and the motor bearings seem to be fantastic as the blade was still spinning after I tested it out the entire time we were discussing the price and looking at the other tools he had for sale.
That indicates dry bearings. They need to be changed.

[Mike Olson]

Doh! thanks for the info Myk. Is it OK to use it as is for a while or will it damage it?
Once owwm.ORG approves my registration i'll be hitting that place up for a bunch of info on what to do next.

[Steve Peterson]

The Bosch glide is another suggestion that will get you a modern machine with a small footprint. I have one on a bench that is 33" deep and the front control knob is flush with the front of the bench. It would also fit on a 25" deep bench if you turn it after you are done using it.

A bit more money would get you a Festool Kapex with a different mechanism to fit on a narrow bench.

Steve

[HANK METZ]

"The Only thing the Radial arm saw does not win at is moving from 90* to 45*. It takes maybe 5 additional seconds."

Here are a couple of tricks that I use on my RAS when the need arises.

I rarely move the arm to 45 degrees, I simply clamp on a miter board to guide the workpiece:
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Trimming and ripping small pieces can be done with the same jig board, only use the 90 degree side:
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The scrap 1X (clamp or freehand) holds the workpiece up against the fence and keeps hands well away from the blade.

[Mike Olson]

"The Only thing the Radial arm saw does not win at is moving from 90* to 45*. It takes maybe 5 additional seconds." Here are a couple of tricks that I use on my RAS when the need arises. I rarely move the arm to 45 degrees, I simply clamp on a miter board to guide the workpiece: <img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=295405"/> Trimming and ripping small pieces can be done with the same jig board, only use the 90 degree side: <img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=295406"/> The scrap 1X (clamp or freehand) holds the workpiece up against the fence and keeps hands well away from the blade.

very cool, thanks for the tips

[Art Mann]

I used to do that with my Craftsman RAS, I knew from experience that if I rotated the arm 45 degrees and then back again, it would never go back to the same place. Plus, it took about 300 ft-lb of torque on the crank handle to raise the arm.

[Myk Rian]

Doh! thanks for the info Myk. Is it OK to use it as is for a while or will it damage it?
If a bearing locks up you'll have big problems.

[Jim Davenport]

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I have to agree that the old Dewalt's are very accurate. mine is a 1956 MBF that I refurbished. I mounted it on a Craftsman roll away tool chest. It's very compact.

[Roy Turbett]

..... Plus, it took about 300 ft-lb of torque on the crank handle to raise the arm.

I have a sacrificial top on my RAS that is 1/2 thicker in front of the fence than it is behind the fence. This lets me swing the arm without having to raise and lower the blade.