Bought My First Backsaw off the Bay - Advice needed

[Matthew N. Masail]

I just got my first backsaw, never handeled one in person before. I think I got a good deal but there is one issue.


The blade is 10" and straight, 13TPI no missing teeth and all are uniform.
Handle is tight and no damage.


when I took it out I noticed that the folded back was not seated all the way at the handle, light hammer taps only seated it so far. I took the handle off and discovered that if seated fully the folded back blocks the handle holes, and even if the hole were not blocked it is too wide and low for the handle slot:

295003295001295002

Seems like the parts might not be original? I'm not too concerned about it, I'm more interested in fixing is up carefully and making a user.


solution? Best solution seem to redrill the holes for the handle lower and slightly deepen the slot in the handle to recive the back?

Other wise carful marking and grinding of the back part of the folded back to fit would be needed but that dosen't seem right, and the moment the slot for the back in the handle ends about half way down the back.


Many thanks.

[bridger berdel]

The back isn't necessarily meant to bottom out on the blade. It might be that you need to raise it at the toe.

[Moses Yoder]

That is a very inexpensive not very old saw but will work fine. I would modify the handle if necessary to make it comfortable and I would set the back all the way down and then mark it and trim it to uncover the holes for the handle. I would guess they are the original parts, just not very well made. As mentioned too, it is not necessary for the back to seat all the way down.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks Moses, the handle is quite comfortable acually, I didn't pay too much so if it ends up a good user I'll be happy. what would be the change in use if I were to lower it by let's say an inch?

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks Bridger, that way the back will bearly be half way on the saw... It would bother me all day

[David Weaver]

That is a very inexpensive not very old saw but will work fine.

It's a tyzack, they're actually decent saws. They have a fat plate, but so does everything else compared to the lazer line saws made these days.

Matthew - it's unlikely those parts didn't come together. Most likely, they designed the saw, as mentioned above, so that the back is about halfway down the plate. That gives you flexibility up or down if the plate gets out of straight, to move the back a little bit and try to straighten things out. When I make a kit, i shoot for halfway on. The only reason it looks funny is because the end of a saw is usually pinched shut so that you can't see that the plate isn't seated up against the back.

I'd reset the back to halfway onto the plate and use the original holes and just make sure the nuts are tight when you put it all back together.

Just saw or bandsaw into a piece of scrap wood so that you can tap the back up without bothering the plate.

[Mike Holbrook]

I happen to have a No. 120 Tyzack, 200mm/8" 20 pts, more of a dovetail saw I think. It was a present or gift many years ago, close to the same condition as the day it was made. Mine has three bolts attaching the handle to the plate & back and the handle is a little different. Although the back fits it's slot there is a saw line that continues another inch or more into the handle serving as the cut for the saw plate. Removing my handle revealed that the back on my saw is right on 3/4" short of the end of the saw.

If you are not happy with the handle fit, making a new handle is a fun project that would dress the saw up. Then you could drill another hole or three in the plate to secure the handle better.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks everyone, I guess I'm starting to learn to difference between a decent saw and a finely made one. I'll check it out when I get back home

[Steve Voigt]

You do not want the back all the way down the blade. Have a look at the Bad Axe website--I think Mark has an article up on setting the back. I know George has written about it here many times. Lots of other good sources on the web: Isaac (blackburn tools) has a blog, so does Matt Cianci, etc. They will all tell you not to seat the back all the way. Like Dave said, about half way is good.

[David Weaver]

Thanks everyone, I guess I'm starting to learn to difference between a decent saw and a finely made one. I'll check it out when I get back home

I wouldn't get down on that saw - it's got a decent blade and a massive folded brass back. The difference between that saw and a new premium saw is primarily cosmetic. The style of the handle is just a sign of the times when it was made - mostly machine made.

But then again, a great deal of the disston handles were more machine made than hand made, too.

[lowell holmes]

I would keep the saw as it is while you get more comfortable with it. You may find that no alterations are required.

After a few months, you will have more of an idea what to do with it.

[Winton Applegate]

Well here is the view from serendip :
These are all "modern" saws.
All three of the Lie-Nelson saws have the blade bedded exactly the same. Take note that the backs are machined bars of brass (not folded sheet metal).
All three Lie-Neilsons have the blade all the way in the slot, but the slot is not even half way to the middle width of the bar. I am not saying there is any problem with that; they all work great. And the bars are fully seated to the slots they engage in the handles. There are no gaps at any point between the handle and the back or blade.

The other saw is a Pax.
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/flinn.htm
It has a folded sheet brass back. The blade is not anywhere near half way into the slot. Looking down into the end of the slot it appears the blade is in the slot about 1/4" to 5/16". There has been no problem with this. The blade back stops short of the end of the slot for it in the handle. There has been no problem with this.

A few photos.

By the way I had to straighten the two large LN back saws the same amount when I got them and it was nearly impossible to do. I had to really horse on them way more than I ever expected to effect a subtle yet necessary change.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I wouldn't get down on that saw - it's got a decent blade and a massive folded brass back. The difference between that saw and a new premium saw is primarily cosmetic. The style of the handle is just a sign of the times when it was made - mostly machine made.

But then again, a great deal of the disston handles were more machine made than hand made, too.

Thanks David. I guess I wasn't too impressed with fit&finish, but I now I know I wasn't looking at the right things.. that's how you learn:) talking practically, the saw is Massive (don't know yet if that's good or bad) and it feels very solid. the slot in the handle is dead straight and fits very snugly, the nuts for the handle are perfect.

I fixed the problem, just lightly. if left as it was, the back edge of the spine would sit only 1\4inch on the blade, and it stood out from the handle meaning it was clearly visible that it's not all the was down, which bothered me a little. I was able to deepen the slot just enough the have the spine sit fully in the handle and it's now about 1\2 way on the blade at the back and a little more than that at the front, making the blade look a little tapered. knowing that I see quite a few saw on the bay are like that! interesting!

I cleaned in up and refinished the handle with shellac, just to give it a new life, It's actually not a bad looking saw!

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Teeth are in good shape but quite dull, and it has zero rake so it's grabby, I'm still waiting for my saw file and I sould get a saw set, thinking Ecalips 77, and then I'll sharpen it up, probably the way Sellers shows.

Thanks everyone for posting! I learned a lot.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Well here is the view from serendip :
These are all "modern" saws.
All three of the Lie-Nelson saws have the blade bedded exactly the same. Take note that the backs are machined bars of brass (not folded sheet metal).
All three Lie-Neilsons have the blade all the way in the slot, but the slot is not even half way to the middle width of the bar. I am not saying there is any problem with that; they all work great. And the bars are fully seated to the slots they engage in the handles. There are no gaps at any point between the handle and the back or blade.

The other saw is a Pax.
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/flinn.htm
It has a folded sheet brass back. The blade is not anywhere near half way into the slot. Looking down into the end of the slot it appears the blade is in the slot about 1/4" to 5/16". There has been no problem with this. The blade back stops short of the end of the slot for it in the handle. There has been no problem with this.

A few photos.

By the way I had to straighten the two large LN back saws the same amount when I got them and it was nearly impossible to do. I had to really horse on them way more than I ever expected to effect a subtle yet necessary change.

Thanks Winton!! the LN is a very clean elegant look, I'd be thrilled with that. the pax on the other hand.... it bothers me, what can I say?
Interesting how the LN sits ALL the way in the slot, but the slot is only half way VS the slot being all the way but still sitting only half way.


How is the Pax saw BTW?

[Winton Applegate]

How is the Pax saw BTW?

Oh it's fine to use and beautiful to look at. I was noticing in my photo the blade looks thinner than the LN's.
I haven't been back to the shop to measure it. Well I was metal working this morning before I went to work but I didn't have even a second to stop and switch gears to look at the Pax.

I'm off Tue. so probably then.

From what David has taught us I think it is just fine as it is blade in slot wise.
And like yours it has a lot of weight from the massive brass back. A lot of high quality back saws that I have seen over the years on first rate blogs etc. have steel backs and are much lighter so I suppose the heavy brass isn't all that important and is more of a glam thing. I will take sharp and proper tooth geometry for the wood being worked over heavy ANY DAY ! But I like looking at my pretty saws too.

It is coming up time for me to get a "real" back saw. A Disston or other old guy. That will be a new adventure for me I am looking forward to. It is gratifying that I have so many great people here on Saw Mill to advise me when I get ready to find one. I would be lost otherwise trying to navigate all the chaff to find the wheat.

[Bill Rhodus]

The next step will be to sharpen the saw and there is a ton of info on the web to get you started. I traveled this path years ago and the one significant thing I remember is that I believed I had researched the sharpening adequately and practiced enough to produce a good cutting saw. Several years passed and I was satisfied with the performance of my saws until I began building a table from some heritage hickory for a relative and it became apparent that my saws were not up to the task. I purchased one back saw from a premium maker and the performance difference was significant. This gave me a benchmark to shoot for while preparing my saws and caused me to greatly improve my techniques. After this, the cherry, walnut, poplar, etc was child's play. In summary, the difficult to work hickory and the benchmark saw revolutionized my abilities.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I only have my iPhone right now so I'll keep it short, in no way do I have the money to buy a benchmark saw, I am planing to start out the sellers way. What is it that made your sharpening better? Different rake angles? Jointing?

[Bill Rhodus]

I understand completely. I bought used and worked on my sharpening for several years before buying a good new saw. This gave me the ability to appreciate a saw that was prepared better than my saws and motivated me to improve my sharpening processes. After reflecting on your comment concerning money, I believe an approach that would be just as good would be to borrow a saw to compare to one you have prepared would be just as good. With enough effort, you can prepare a saw every bit as good as one you can buy if you know how a good saw should perform. The things you mentioned are all important; learning to alter the rake to match the work a saw will be used for such as the thickness of wood, the species of wood, etc. Adding a bit of fleam to a tenon saw that will be used for rip and crosscuts (think traveling toolbox saw) can give you a versatile saw, etc, etc. Also, I began to log how I prepared my saws; each saw had its own page detailing plate thickness, TPI, tooth configuration (rip, crosscut, or hybrid), fleam, rake, kerf, etc. As I used my saws I changed the configuration to match the way I work; an example would be two each coarse rip saws of 5.5 TPI, one with less rake for ripping softwoods and one with more rake for hard woods.

[Winton Applegate]

the benchmark saw revolutionized my abilities.

I agree. If, early on, we could only experience the serious tools and preparation of those tools it would save us all grief. I definitely hear you there.

[Bill Rhodus]

Just saw a thread on sharpening in Neanderthal by Fitzhugh; hope you are checking it out.

[Winton Applegate]

I was going to just post my first comment as a light hearted nonsense for the fun of it.
I feel now, since I am going to post a second dead serious comment that may offend I need to clarify from the start. I hope I am not being too BAD. And keep in mind your time fixing up these (fixer uppers) and the price of buying several of the maybe / maybe not inferior tools especially hand planes searching for something that does the job.

comment #1

I only have my iPhone right now
You can’t do woodworking with an iPhone no matter what app you have or your sharpening techniques.

Kidding, kidding
I have made some nice wood projects with my iPhone.
but
I still prefer my rock.

Comment #2
Woodworking is EXPENSIVE (though cheeper than keeping a Ferrari). Real tools, in my experience, cost serious bank (though since I didn't waste that four thousand dollars on a REAL electric powered cabinet saw that I didn't need (though I still admire them and dream) I feel I am ahead by that much so hand tools are practically free especially when spread out over the years.
I make very little in comparison to most people and I buy some of the higher end stuff. I would in all seriousness implore you to reevaluate your stand on "expensive" "out of reach" hand tools.
A case in point I see all the time when it comes to an automobile repair people will pay three hundred dollars for an emergency brake cable (park brake cable actually) for one of many examples and not bat an eye not to mention the hundred dollar charge to install it etc.
And yet, and yet and yet . . .
when it comes to a two or three hundred dollar handsaw that they will have after the car with the park brake cable is gone and forgotten and will be a key tool in most projects (projects that could very well replace months or years of counseling and therapy (we all know what that costs)(well I don't but any way) . . .

or at least save their sanity until the shrink can get the net on them . .

they bridle. Too expensive they say.
Unless some poor little guy in flip flops in a third world country who is getting beat with a stick and forced to make the tools in twelve hour shifts is getting paid zip the tool cost too much . . .
is that it ? . . .

. . . OK . . . I'm done . . . I feel better . . .

[Matthew N. Masail]

Oh it's fine to use and beautiful to look at. I was noticing in my photo the blade looks thinner than the LN's.
I haven't been back to the shop to measure it. Well I was metal working this morning before I went to work but I didn't have even a second to stop and switch gears to look at the Pax.

I'm off Tue. so probably then.

From what David has taught us I think it is just fine as it is blade in slot wise.
And like yours it has a lot of weight from the massive brass back. A lot of high quality back saws that I have seen over the years on first rate blogs etc. have steel backs and are much lighter so I suppose the heavy brass isn't all that important and is more of a glam thing. I will take sharp and proper tooth geometry for the wood being worked over heavy ANY DAY ! But I like looking at my pretty saws too.

It is coming up time for me to get a "real" back saw. A Disston or other old guy. That will be a new adventure for me I am looking forward to. It is gratifying that I have so many great people here on Saw Mill to advise me when I get ready to find one. I would be lost otherwise trying to navigate all the chaff to find the wheat.

Yeah I have no doubt the saw work perfectly fine with even 1\4 of the spine on the back, but it doesn't look good. with the front pinched and the back edge buried in the handle it much cleaner looking.


I'll only know about heavy vs light once I actually own both... but I we'll see, even before sharpening I'm very happy with the balance and feel of this Tyzack


I know, this place is amazing, there many people here who give amazingly time and advice. and it's a great place to be part of, I hope to start sharing some real stuff sooner rather than later.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Just saw a thread on sharpening in Neanderthal by Fitzhugh; hope you are checking it out.

Thanks so much Bill, I did check it out. but experiance has told me that jumping in the water is the best way to learn. I will probably make a saw vise and sharpen this puppy up in the next 2weeks, still have a project to finish for my newly married brother in law. Keeping a log sound like a great idea, I'll do that if I can discipline myself enough.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I was going to just post my first comment as a light hearted nonsense for the fun of it.
I feel now, since I am going to post a second dead serious comment that may offend I need to clarify from the start. I hope I am not being too BAD. And keep in mind your time fixing up these (fixer uppers) and the price of buying several of the maybe / maybe not inferior tools especially hand planes searching for something that does the job.

comment #1

You can’t do woodworking with an iPhone no matter what app you have or your sharpening techniques.

Kidding, kidding
I have made some nice wood projects with my iPhone.
but
I still prefer my rock.

Comment #2
Woodworking is EXPENSIVE (though cheeper than keeping a Ferrari). Real tools, in my experience, cost serious bank (though since I didn't waste that four thousand dollars on a REAL electric powered cabinet saw that I didn't need (though I still admire them and dream) I feel I am ahead by that much so hand tools are practically free especially when spread out over the years.
I make very little in comparison to most people and I buy some of the higher end stuff. I would in all seriousness implore you to reevaluate your stand on "expensive" "out of reach" hand tools.
A case in point I see all the time when it comes to an automobile repair people will pay three hundred dollars for an emergency brake cable (park brake cable actually) for one of many examples and not bat an eye not to mention the hundred dollar charge to install it etc.
And yet, and yet and yet . . .
when it comes to a two or three hundred dollar handsaw that they will have after the car with the park brake cable is gone and forgotten and will be a key tool in most projects (projects that could very well replace months or years of counseling and therapy (we all know what that costs)(well I don't but any way) . . .

or at least save their sanity until the shrink can get the net on them . .

they bridle. Too expensive they say.
Unless some poor little guy in flip flops in a third world country who is getting beat with a stick and forced to make the tools in twelve hour shifts is getting paid zip the tool cost too much . . .
is that it ? . . .

. . . OK . . . I'm done . . . I feel better . . .

Ok! Good, I'm glad you feel better! :)

I DID NOT buy and iPhone..... oy..... my dear wife bought it for me for our anniversary, and it sat in my closet for months... awaiting me to finally give in... I don't like this stuff and would never spend money on it. anyway, now that I have it, it's pretty cool, I can spend time here on m lunch break and on the bus!


I agree good tools are worth it. buying 1 300$ saw can be better than 6 50$ saws. for me at the moment it's about getting what I need to work, and work well, thats it, and that's all the matters.

[bridger berdel]

Think of it like this: pinch your thumb and forefinger together, making an O. This is the cross section of the back. now pinch something thin and flat between those fingers. That's the blade. If you shift the blade all of the way up until it bottoms out in the palm of your hand, the contact there influences the hang. Wiggle your fingertips past each other and back, watch the blade warp. Any tiny variations in the folded back are magnified out to the teeth edge. The back grabs the blade only at it's lower edge, and it doesn't matter how much of the saw plate it grabs, as long as it doesn't fall off or bottom out. The bottom line is that the toothline be straight.

[Pat Barry]

....I am planing to start out the sellers way.
lets not start on that path again. LOL JK

[Steve Voigt]

What is it that made your sharpening better?

Practice, just as with anything else.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Bridger, that makes perfect sense. Pat, I plan to start that way because It seems simple and seems to work well, I have nothing to lose by trying, I will not let the mere mention of Paul's name turned into " starting again" this place is better than that.