Camellia oil on oil stones

[les winter]

Any opinions on whether Camellia oil is too light to use on oil stones? I like it better than Norton honing oil.

[Jim Matthews]

If you can still chase a burr, and keep the swarf clear- what difference does the oil make? I've seen good results with cheap lamp oil, but it has a potent odor.

If it cuts steel and doesn't rust, why not?

[les winter]

I want to avoid clogging the stone.

[David Weaver]

Depending on the temperature, it's similar in viscosity to mineral oil (and i'm not convinced that some of the camelia oils aren't part mineral oil, though it's pretty easy to tell they're not the same thing when you get them below about 50 degrees and the camelia oil starts to solidify).

I see no advantage to mineral oil - both will evaporate over time on an exposed stone. I don't use norton honing oil, well, I use some that I got for free, but I generally use WD 40 or light mineral oil that can be bought by the gallon for about $15. Which of the two depends on how aggressive you want the stones to be and how fine the stone. Oil for coarser stones and WD 40 for finer where sometimes oil will suspend something off of the stone too much.

If your stone seems to be drying off and "clogging" between uses, build a case like the old time cases (out of two pieces of scrap is fine), forstner bit or mortise it out, whatever.....and the stone won't dry off and have dryish-swarf on it.

Stones used with oil never really load too much, and a couple of drops of oil is all it takes to loosen whatever is on the surface of them, but they do get dulled particles.

I have no idea if camelia oil oxidizes over time, but if it does, I wouldn't want to use it on a stone.

[Winton Applegate]

Noooooo , nahhhhhhh , noooooooo don't doooooo that !
Nah
What you want on an oil stone should boarder on being solvent . . . more like kerosene. Camellia oil is closer to oil for finishing wood and will gunk up the pores in your stones. I would say it is too "thick".

In fact unless you are honing valuable old steel blades that rust like crazy then clean the oil stones of all the gunk and then use water. Or better yet use water stones.

[Winton Applegate]

both will evaporate over time on an exposed stone.

David,
You are a brilliant and very attentive sharpener and teacher. I am thinking you got into a bad batch of peanuts or gin or some such and it is TEMPORARILY effecting your thinker . . .

evaporate

Surely you mean the oil will oxidize and turn to a solid like clear rubber
as opposed to
actually evaporating
as in turn to a gas like state and lift off into the great blue yonder.

I have put many kinds of woodworker related oils on glass and watched them over days, weeks and months.

(not a one turned to a gas and left the glass clean as whistle)( like water or paint thinner or denatured alc would do).

are we sure "evaporated" is the best term available to us here ?

PS: I agree the recent batches of camillia is not the real deal but "cut" with mineral oils or what have you. There was a thread here a few months ago that pretty much proved that was the case.

[David Barnett]

Volatile oils do evaporate, do turn to vapor. The evaporation of essential oils, their rate of evaporation and modifiers to this rate is a cornerstone of perfumery and the property of sillage (pr. see-yazh).

[David Weaver]

David,
You are a brilliant and very attentive sharpener and teacher. I am thinking you got into a bad batch of peanuts or gin or some such and it is TEMPORARILY effecting your thinker . . .


Surely you mean the oil will oxidize and turn to a solid like clear rubber
as opposed to
actually evaporating
as in turn to a gas like state and lift off into the great blue yonder.

I have put many kinds of woodworker related oils on glass and watched them over days, weeks and months.

(not a one turned to a gas and left the glass clean as whistle)( like water or paint thinner or denatured alc would do).

are we sure "evaporated" is the best term available to us here ?

PS: I agree the recent batches of camillia is not the real deal but "cut" with mineral oils or what have you. There was a thread here a few months ago that pretty much proved that was the case.

Well, not evaporate like distilled water would, but as David is saying, reduce to some extent and disappear, leaving behind only a residue.

Dry is perhaps a better term. But with WD 40 (not an oil) and mineral oil (an oil), whatever is left behind when it dries up is not detrimental and must be getting removed by the next wet application. I've never had a stone stop cutting for any reason other than the surface gets burnished and the abrasive that's facing the top is just pooped out.

So, anyway, if you use mineral oil one day and you go to work the next with the stone left out in between, you'll find the surface dry. If you put a lid on it - one that's air tight for the most part, you will find the surface still wet.

[george wilson]

I just used to use LOCK OIL the whole time I was in the musical instrument maker's shop. Thin to run into a door lock,evaporated to a thicker oil to stay put and lubricate. It was available in the museum warehouse. I only wanted the thinned out portion of its life. It stayed thin plenty long enough to sharpen with. The millwork shop used to keep their stones soaking in kerosene. I could have used that too. But the lock oil came in a handy can with a sealable little spout on it.

Now,I just use slightly soapy water as my sharpening stones have changed to diamond and white and black ceramic.

[Stew Denton]

Hi Les, Winston is correct. The oil is somewhat similar to linseed oil. It a naturally occurring oil extracted from tea seed. (Linseed oil is extracted from flax seed.) From what I was able to find, it is composed primarily of what are called triglycerides. I don't know whether the oil is a drying oil, like linseed oil, or not, but based on it's structure, I think that it might likely be. At the very least, I think it will gum up. It can thus gum up the stone, and fill the pores like Winston has mentioned.

I can say, however, that it will not evaporate from the stones, it will instead soak in where it will probably eventually gum up. If you have used it on the stone, I would certainly try to clean it off with paint thinner or mineral spirits, but preferably paint thinner. After the paint thinner dries, I would also be tempted to try further cleaning with soapy water followed by clean hot water. If the paint thinner gets the camellia oil off the stone good, then I would skip the soapy water.

You certainly want to try to get the camellia oil off the stone.

Stew

[Winton Applegate]

next realm.
Has David W. kept his faith in Camille ?
Has Camille been faithful to David ?
Was that Camille with David B. and if it was how will they tell David W.?

Now are ya sure you want to go down this road ? You know it will all end in tears.

But first a poser : What pre tell would 100 % pure camellia oil cost ?
and
here’s the clincher . . .
who among us has the bank to almost daily massage their eBay oil stone with it ?
Now really . . .
I want to see hands . . .
Get ‘em up . ..
it is kind of dark in here and from starring at this computer screen I am kind of night blind right now so I need to give my eyes time to adjust but . . .

You knew I would do it. I couldn’t help it.
I got me some glass . . . I made my connection (finish from The Tool Crib (my laundry room)) . . . I put the “stuff” out on the glass . . . I got me a straw (rolled up hunert dollar bill . . . oh wait PUT THAT AWAY we aren’t going there ! ! ! !

You remember The Cheese Cam ? It is an online 24 - 7 web cam focused on some cultured fromage . “Fans” can “tune in” when ever they like and watch the “action”.
Wellllll
friends and neighbors this has the potential to be EVERY BIT AS EXCITING AS EVEN THAT !

It will be just like watching paint dry but more than that
OIL PAINT !
and even more than that
OIL PAINT WITH ATTITUDE
Hey the Tung oil can get pretty FROSTY
and the Stand oil can stand up clear and solid when it needs to be
and even more than that
We will be delving into the very heart and soul of oil paint !
That Devine essence that gives the pigment staying power and resistance to the slings and arrows (well maybe not arrows . . . as such . . . but who knows with our combined faith and imagination.
(((lots of imagination))) . . .
anything is possible.
Well except of course evaporating oil. Even I can’t conjure that one up in the veritable air plane hanger that is MY imagination.
and yet ! And YET ! ?
no ‘fraid not.

PS:it looks like the thin application is on the back side of the glass but actually I smeared it around then pressed progressively harder to thin out the middle; which will have the greatest potential to actually solidify . . . I mean . . . titter, titter, evaporate before we grow old and forget just why we have been coming here every day for years to look at these new updates of the oil.

[David Barnett]

next realm.
Has David W. kept his faith in Camille ?
Has Camille been faithful to David ?
Was that Camille with David B. and if it was how will they tell David W.?
Ah... Camille... yes... that coquettish grisette. Too aspiring, too expensive, too needy and demanding for moi. Yes, Camille... with that ever-pungent stamp of the woman who neglects herself.


...who among us has the bank to almost daily massage their eBay oil stone with it?The Japanese weren't big into olive oil so they used what they had. But I don't have the need to drench my steel or stones in anything so overly priced, and, I suspect, as diluted with other less-costly unctions.


I got me some glass . . . I made my connection (finish from The Tool Crib (my laundry room)) . . . I put the “stuff” out on the glassObviously one wouldn't seek a rapidly oxidizing, polymerizing, cross-linking finishing oil—not for honing stones.


...anything is possible. Well except of course evaporating oil. Even I can’t conjure that one up in the veritable air plane hanger that is MY imagination.

Perhaps Camille, you and likely others around you, might benefit from your delving into the world of evaporative oils, that is, the world of scent. Not saying that you'd need an entire perfume 'organ'...

295008

...but a dram or two of a grassy vetiver or something woody might be nice.

[george wilson]

This is becoming exceeding hard to follow. It doth wax too poetic,but doth it wax factual,Oh Winton?

Pray,Do not use tung oil,linseed oil,castor oil,or any other drying oil on your stones. I have not fallen prey to the siren song of Camellia oil,adulterated as it might be. This reminds me of the craze in the 70's of using very expensive lavender oil in your violin varnish. It evaporates away in the end,clearing your sinuses might have been its main benefit. Paint thinner worked quite well for my spray painted smooth,but applied by ox hair brush finishes. It lubricated the brush,and kept the varnish from dragging. It did this well. Technique was important,as always,in the final analysis.

Just use something simple like kerosene and all will be well. WD 40 will do,but wipe it off well when you are done. Left on metals by itself,it tends to leave a gummy brown film that is very hard to remove. It no doubt will do the same on your stones.

Mineral oil? I find it too thick to suit me. Too thick and the oil begins to hold your steel away from the stone,and makes your sharpening harder. It is TOO lubricating. What you want is an oil that will let your stone cut,and just carry away the particles of steel. If you desire more body,perhaps a 50-50 mixture of mineral oil and kerosene? Then,I think we approach my old lock oil.

If you really want to be thorough,order yourself some WATER SOLUBLE cutting oil from MSC. Like "Aqua Cut". It is made for lubricating tools while cutting steel,and will certainly do for sharpening on stones NOT soaked with oil. It is not thick.

If you have old,oil impregnated stones,you may be stuck with oil. I doubt you will ever get it out.Besides,oil type stones are porous,and need more than water. The India stones for example. Some oil stones come loaded with oil anyway. I have changed my stones and my habits,and just use a little slightly soapy water. A touch of WATER soluble cutting oil is beneficial,if I ever get round to ordering more. Meanwhile,a few drops of dish detergent in a cup full of water,in a museum weenie begotten squeeze bottle serve me quite well.

[David Weaver]

It occurs to me that I might be feeble brained. I don't know how fast my kitchen machine lubricant (light mineral oil) evaporates, but the Wd40 definitely evaporates fast, except when you put your stones in a box and then it doesn't.

There's another reason to have a box for oilstones, though - or a cheaply made case, whatever you want to call it - mineral oil left on the surface of a stone attracts every abrasive thing that may ever fly in your shop, and if not abrasive, just dust. It's nice to have a clean surface on a stone that has no more than oil and metal on it (and it's nice not to have the wd40 evaporate, which is what I use) and nice to not have to wipe off the surface of the stones.

It's somewhat OK these days for a stone to get gummed up down below the abrasive, because you're going to be agitating a stone (if needed) with a diamond hone, so the old situation of a stone that hopelessly stops cutting can be mitigated pretty easily. Of course, if you leave a big coat of junk right on the top, it's going to be a pain to remove.

What I use mineral oil on the most is medium india and medium crystolon - I like it for the coarser stones where the particles are long enough to get through the layer of oil, but where I also like the oil's ability to suspend the large amounts of swarf (which with crystolon includes a lot of broken out pieces of silicon carbide) and move them easily.

But it really is all preference and doesn't matter much - the only thing that matters is that we're actually sharpening.

We don't want to become like those people on the knife videos on youtube where if someone doesn't use the same exact method as someone else (none of the guys could possibly do any work as long as they spend sharpening), they insult each other and say that they're "ruining knives" and "such a knife would be unusable". It's especially funny to see those chair jockeys going to a video that shows an actual chef demonstrating what they do *in a professional kitchen* and insulting the presenter about how they couldn't possibly do work after sharpening with a fine india stone and a steel.

[Winton Applegate]

OK
We are back.
We are at the site of The Event.

It now appears there has been a definite change . . . yes definitely a change has occurred . . .

I have not had my coffee at this point. I excitedly JUMPED out of bed this morning (before eleven o’clock I will have you know) and ran down to the shop.
. . . now now I must be scientific and keep the FACTS absolutely accurate to eliminate from the start any chance of skewing the data to fit my predicted out come. . . the fact is . . . I stumbled groggily down the steps to the shop . . . but I might add with my duty to my fellow Saw Mill Creek members FOREMOST in my consciousness . . . what little consciousness there was to try to maintain a grip on it . . . zzzzzzz

Oh, oh . . . any way I took some photos. I want to present them here to my fellow colleagues for a consensus evaluation. I don’t trust my judgement right now. Not that I am all that biased or imbalanced by my obsessive nonevaporationist theories it is more that I have not had my coffee yet and so there is grave danger that I may on first blush misinterpret the data at hand.

Oh and by the way you may have noticed I have hired two full time lab assistants. They will maintain a twenty four hour vigil trading off in twelve hour shifts and will report any dramatic or titter, titter disappearances of the substances under observation.

I do note that the bottles of the three test subjects have disappeared. Inexplicable . . . we simply MUST run a new series of experiments to get to the bottom of that . . . no . . . wait . . . it is becoming clear to me. Ha, ha, I put the bottles away last night. No that takes care of that. Mystery solved. Well, well, I haven’t had coffee yet and we are making progress. I anticipate a good day for research in the lab. Yes, yes, better than most I should say.

The four legged assistant . . .
. . . he said he didn't wish to participate in such foolishness and when I said I wished to photograph him taking part in the experiment then demanded double salary and full rights to the photos . . .
His human partner, who was most gratified and excited to be taking part in these "cutting edge" investigations (well I convinced him they were cutting edge investigations) and so he eventually brought his four legged companion around to see "the light" (It was also in his contract that I was not to use his name in any of the documentation or press releases; he was most emphatic on that point). So we will refer to him as "the four legged" . . .
anyway he has the added advantage of being able to haul in extra equipment should we have an EVENT horizon and need to move fast in some unexpected (and I might add so far to modern science undocumented ) direction.

I know the appearance of the assistants may give pause but Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer assures me that they are good boys and help her constantly in her varied and far ranging work.

PS: I have just been informed that I have failed to report the change that has occurred in the oil, specifically the camellia oil under twenty four hour scientific observation. Let me look back through my notes . . .
. . . I have it here some where. . .
. . . yes . . . here . . . I have it . . .
there now seems to be some dust particles that have fallen into the maw of The Fearsome And All Powerful Camellia and have become hopelessly trapped. To rescue them would require funding beyond this institute's purse and would end this all important experiment to improve the general plight of all of man kind (fortunately woman kind is too smart to get involved in this so that is all right then).

any way the plight of the dust particles . . . they will, unfortunately, be lost but they will be remembered for all time by a plaque and a memorial to be erected on this site commemorating their sacrifice for the good of all.

[george wilson]

Winton,I like your posts,but this last one is even more obscure than the others. I mean,say haw?

[Winton Applegate]

soapy water followed by clean hot water.

In all seriousness now.
Do not use hot water on a WATER STONE. It will be cold from being in water that is evaporating from it an, so, cooling it bellow even the ambient and the hot water can
at the very least cause the WATER STONE to chip
and at the very worst cause the stone to crack apart.

Apparently the oil stone is a much more hardy structure and can take this hot water shower with great alacrity.

[David Weaver]

You can boil oilstones without issue, or run them through the dishwasher if you don't value your relationship with your spouse.

[Winton Applegate]

Obviously one wouldn't seek a rapidly oxidizing, polymerizing, cross-linking finishing oil—not for honing stones.
Well I chose those for the dramatic differences in their appearance while drying (oxidizing).

After all I wanted SOMETHING for the readers / viewers to watch . . . ((((since I was sure the performance by the camellia oil would be canceled or at best exasperatingly tardy))). There I go again giving sway to my prejudices and hence the solum (solemn) and critical need for the objectivity of the dear readers of Sawmill Creek.

Please forgive my penchant for the dramatic, I get it from my alter ego Holmes.
My analyst keeps banging on about split personalities and medication. He doesn’t realize it but I take no notice of all his blithering.


you and likely others around you, might benefit from your delving into the world of evaporative oils, that is, the world of scent.

perfume 'organ'

Is that what that is, I don't have my glasses, I thought it was some ancient amphitheater.

I thought, ha, ha, that you were telling me in pictures that if I want to be so dramatic to find an audience.

No like all true hermits, dedicated to their art, the cultivated ambiance (if you will) tends to act as front line against all but the most determined visitor. As you say the world of scent doest have it's uses.

[Winton Applegate]

Winton . . . your posts . . . this last one is even more obscure than the others. I mean,say haw?

Some people like this sort of thing . . . well . . . me . . . I like this sort of thing.
Q , after reading these, just looks at me like yes after careful consideration she is, after all, going to take me back to the pound. First thing tomorrow.

Fortunately for me her memory, poor thing, isn't what it used to be and she forgets to do it. Borrowed time my friend; I live (and post) on borrowed time.

[Winton Applegate]

You can boil oilstones without issue, or run them through the dishwasher

That is a harsh way to deal with them. I mean you can't expect them to do better than their best. You wouldn't expect a char woman of the castle (oil stone) to perform as well as a knight in armor (water stone) now would you ?

Torturing the poor thing isn't going to make it any smarter or more loyal.
allll though . . .
he, he, he,
We haven't tried boiling them in OIL now have we ?
Sayyyy THAT would be FUN !
That'll bring the slackers around to see our view of things !
Busss out the caldron me laddies !

[Malcolm Schweizer]

You can boil oilstones without issue, or run them through the dishwasher if you don't value your relationship with your spouse.

The same also works well for VW engine cases on both counts: works well, relationship suffers.

[george wilson]

Before I enlarged the picture,I thought it was a girl,sitting high up in some giant stadium.

[les winter]

Thanks everyone for their input.
Les

[Winton Applegate]

Thanks everyone for their input.

Oh we're just getting warmed up good, starting to swerve back and forth to heat up the tires . . .

. . . lets look in on the "science" essspearment . . . shall we ? Now where have those boys gone off to ? Can't get good help . . . oh there they are. They were hunting crickets. Things get a little slow on this job they just told me. OK . . . if I were them I would be hunting crickets too. I gotta cut 'em some slack on a job like this.

(don't tell David W. but I added some WD-40 bulk from the gallon (not spray) to the glass. I was going to put both on there (you know . . . give him the benefit of the doubt . . .) but Q took my only can of spray to her art studio. I practically had to beg her to take it. When I am there she asks me to fix stuff and I will need it then.)
(the WD-40 didn't flap off into the sky either) (Or as we are calling it "evaporate") (who knows . . . maybe tomorrow or next week . . .)

Hmmmmmm Camillia is still there as well. There were some thunder storms here (for an hour or two) maybe today was not her day for flying.

Can't blame it on the temp of the shop though; around seventy five or eighty in there.

[David Weaver]

Winston, spread that stuff out some, like 2 drops over a 2x8 surface. It's more like a glaze on the stone that dries over a day or two (but a porous stone has a lot of effective surface area).

I'd say for camelia oil, it probably takes a month or two before I see rust on a tool that was wiped.

[Winton Applegate]

David W.,

You are going to have to stay away from that particular brand of peanuts. They don't agree with you.

Back to your good old self now I see.
Right as rain ?
Fit as a fiddle as it were ?
Good , GOOD !


dries

dries . . . Dries I will buy . . . dries is good . . . oxidizes is better; more accurate.
"dries" still tries to whip the tired old imagination into inventing some kind of solvent or thinner that has left the scene.

((((and . . . well . . . I don't quite know how to ask this but . . .) ) )

Isn't the point of the oil on the stone to FLOAT the metal swarf out of the pores of the stone ?
On a mere breath of fluid thickness ? Not bloody likely old chap.

I am getting the idea that you have been trying to reply to the tool wiping thread but this is the stone deluging thread.

[Winton Applegate]

Well here we are late evening of the fifth day. Looks like the Camellia oil is here for the duration.
There has been NO "evaporation"
and
NO drying. It is wet to the touch in the spot I rubbed until it is thin in the middle.
(same goes for the WD-40)
The Stand oil has glazed over a bit and is not oily to the touch.
I would have expected the Tung oil to have begun to "frost" but it still looks clear. A sign there are no driers in it and it is 100% Tung as stated on the original bottle.
Probably in a week or two it will be frosted looking.

My money says the Camellia will be about the same as it is now; still there and oily to the touch. In months I know it can turn rubbery, at least the old stuff from several years ago. That is why I stopped putting it on my tools and went to wax. I don't want my saws with a rubbery layer on them. I run very little set to the teeth and don't need any, bindication causing, glue on them.

[Stanley Covington]

All oils evaporate, or at least the volatile components in the oily compound you are using do. Not a question of if, but when. By definition, they are volatile.

As I have said before, the camellia oil you are buying in the States is not real camellia oil, but mineral oil with a bit of artificial scent and color added. They don't sell it as pure camellia oil, so it does not qualify as false advertising. Mineral oil is a fine product for corrosion protection, but real camellia oil oxidizes, goes rancid, and hardens into a gummy mess over time. Using real camellia oil on an oilstone would be a disaster.

I think mineral oil is too thick for oilstones.

George has it right. Nothing beats kerosene. WD-40 works good too, and smells better, but it is not nearly as cost effective.

Stan

[Tom Bussey]

It is great to see the play back and forth, but who cares? Use whatever works and suits you, Use whatever you have, get the whatever sharp, and use it. The project will not get any closer to being done until you work on it.

[les winter]

It is great to see the play back and forth, but who cares? Use whatever works and suits you, Use whatever you have, get the whatever sharp, and use it. The project will not get any closer to being done until you work on it.


I agree. During the time this thread has run, I put my oilstones aside. Sold a half ton of my water stones. The oil stones are next. I'm using all diamonds with a diamond paste leather strop. My edges are great and my hands are clean. I'm done.

I appreciate all of he input.
regards
Les

[Winton Applegate]

While I have my strength up I thought I would update the evaporating oil thread.

I am seeing what I theorized that I would see, and have in the past observed.
Does that mean I know a fact ?

One fact I know is the fact that the oils I expected to see cross link and solidify (the Tung oil and the Stand oil) are extremely slow in doing it. These are from the same batches of oil I originally used several years ago to do this same sort of exploration.

Back then they glazed over and began to solidify much sooner than they are here.
I did not stir up the contents in the jars because the jars are full of big marbles to displace the air form the jar. I think I learned a lesson there; stir up the contents. These are supposed to be 100% pure but I suspect they have a hint of catalytic dryer and it has settled out.

Any body want to comment on that one ?

The Stand oil thick puddle is still wet and unglazed.

At least the Tung oil is doing something; it is wrinkling like before and is dry to the touch. It would not smear . . . it looks green because I have the light raking very low to try to get the photo and is reflecting some color from the glass . . . there is no green in the actual appearance of the tung oil . . . notice the WD-40 is still very wet and easily smeared
(and . . . ahem . . . has failed to evaporate)

Also note the Camilla readily smeared and is so wet it ran when I picked up the sheet of glass to move it from the shelf to the bench to be photographed again.

again
no evaporation action from the Camilla either.

PS: Gumby and Pokey say hi and are still on the job but are pretty bored at this point though there was a celebration with balloons and noise makers when the tung oil wrinkled. I was at work and missed it.

[Winton Applegate]

Another change
the thick / small diameter pool of tung oil has now hardened over and wrinkled.

It has taken about seven weeks for this to occur.

The imitation camellia oil has not evaporated
The WD-40 has not evaporated.

Both of the camellia oil and the WD-40 remain quite fluid and unchanged except for some dust particles that have fallen into them.

PS: part of my finding is that this camellia oil is not pure and is more resistant to thickening than previous batches from say, ten years ago. If it were pure it would have turned gummy or at least thickened by now and would have gummed up the stones.
Apparently the camellia oil from this vender could perhaps be used on a stone. I would rather use kerosene though and avoid the potential for clogging up the stone with camellia oil.