Shapton 8000k stone questions

[Mike Cherry]

I have been getting mixed results from this stone and as a beginner I'm not sure what to make of it. When I hone the bevel on a plane or chisel on this stone it leave a beautiful mirror polish. The backs of chisels and plane blades,however, are reflective but more what I would call cloudy. Now I know that the purpose is to get the tools sharp, but I just can't help but wonder why I am experiencing this. Any thoughts?

[David Weaver]

Something loose rolling around on the surface of the stone, or not a clean stone surface. But it makes no difference in terms of the quality of the edge unless there's actually something in the stone swarf damaging the edge. the 8k is something like a 2 micron stone, even if there are loose particles in the swarf (that are from the stone or from the iron), it should be fine.

If you want to get a bright finish just to get it, lap the surface of the stone, remove all of the swarf and just hone on clear water. Repeat if it loads.

[Mike Cherry]

like I said, I get a good edge I believe, just looking for a way to explain the results between the back and front. Could it be that my backs arent as flat as I think they are? I went outside to take a picture of it but realized it is so slight that the camera doesnt really get it. Its minor, but its the there. The bevel is a mirror, the back is a dirty chrome bumper.

[David Weaver]

It's possible, it could be any number of things.

I could get a spider webbed polish with a shapton 5k, and of course the 15k made a bright polish. I think the polish with the 8k should be bright.

If the back isn't as flat as you'd expect, you should still have some bright spots that are polished - the high spots.

Another thing that keeps you from getting a good polish (which I seriously doubt is the issue) is lack of hardness. But the lack of hardness has to be so drastic that it would literally not hold an edge.

[Jim Koepke]

Not sure why, but sometimes it seems my 4K King stone leaves a better polish than my 8K Norton.

The King seems kind of hard and the Norton feels soft in comparison.

The 8K definitely leaves the edge sharper than the 4K.

jtk

[Mike Cherry]

David - I do have certain spots on the back of the blade that are more what I would expect from the 8000k stone. Although I have witnessed this on several blades, I only decided to pose my question because this is a brand new Hock Blade that I am working. I figured if I spent all that money on a new blade I'd shine her up real nice but so far I'm not getting the shine I'm looking for. I usually flatten at 1000k then polish at 8000k(unless the back needs more aggressive work, obviously). Would it benefit me at all to have an intermediate stone like a 5000k to make it easier to remove the 1000k scratches? Up until this point I have hesitated doing this because the bevel has always cleaned up so well on my 8000k.

Jim - Thanks for your input, I believe I have read about there being differences in manufacturers grit ratings. Not sure there should be such a noticeable difference in between those two stones though haha.

[David Weaver]

If you put finger pressure near the edge, do you get a good polish right at the edge? If you get a good polish right at the edge, then you're where you need to be.

It is *extremely* unlikely that a hock blade would be underhard, so it's either a flatness issue or a loose particle/contamination issue.

[Mike Cherry]

It's hard to say, I get a good polish but not as clear as the bevel.

[Mike Cherry]

I have to assume the stone is not flat and that the problem only presents itself when dealing with a wider object such as the back of the blade versus only the bevel. Just strange that it happens to all my chisels and plane blades hehe

[Winton Applegate]

It is like David said originally.
We understand (sounded like you think he didn't understand your original post. He did understand).
If I make slurry or allow slurry to form then I get the cloudiness. If I clean the stone with water and take the nagura over the stone like an eraser to get rid of the blackened areas where there is still metal imbedded in the stone THEN RINSE THE STONE so there is just water on it JUST AS DAVID RECOMMENDED then I get the mirror.

[Winton Applegate]

4K King stone leaves a better polish than my 8K Norton.

"Old Norton" or "New Norton" ? ? ?
the new ones made in Mexico are junk or at least last I conversed with some one about them they were junk. The old ones, like three or four years ago and older are great ! Well made, consistently fine grit, hard enough to work well soft enough to cut fast enough. I love my old one. I just went all Shapton to get the cool storage / drying box. (I don't use the box as a holder for sharpening ever).

[Winton Applegate]

I usually flatten at 1000k then polish at 8000k
DUDE . . . THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM
You need to work through all or most of the grits between your 1000 and the 8000.
If you want the nice mirror.
For the back or for a larger than micro small bevel.
I go 700, 1000, 2000, 4000, 5000, 8000. Some times I will leave out the 4000 which is the Norton and just go 2000 to 5000 (more often than not).

But I am going for the ultimate polish and edge (cause it is "my thing").
You could go 1K, 4K, 8K
I used to go 700, 1200, 4k, 8K and got stellar results with a mix of King and Norton stones.

First photo of stones there is the green Shapton 2000 in with the King and Nortons. The 2K was my first Shapton.

[Mike Cherry]

I see, so an intermediate stone would help it sounds like. Would adding just a 5000k Shapton between my 1000k and 8000k get me there? I haven't seen a 4000k shapton lately but maybe I missed it.

[Winton Applegate]

Not that I really can recommend glass stones but here is a 4000 Shapton
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0000000.htm (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0000000.htm)
and the same thing but different :)
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!00000HC.htm (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!00000HC.htm)

If you can get an old Norton 4000 (ebay or old stock at the local WoodCraft store) it is a very effective stone. Old meaning MADE IN THE USA.
One could almost use it as their only sharpening stone. And really there isn’t much reason to go past a 6000 stone for most wood cutting edges but I like to fool around in the upper reaches of silly sharp.

;) I am sure David can recommend a superior fill in stone from Stu. Stu seems to be theeee source these days for great stones at a good price. I have yet to deal with him; mostly because as any one here will tell you I have way too many stones already.

[David Weaver]

I see, so an intermediate stone would help it sounds like. Would adding just a 5000k Shapton between my 1000k and 8000k get me there? I haven't seen a 4000k shapton lately but maybe I missed it.

Something like a 2k would be more helpful. the 5k is 3 microns particle size and the 8k is 2. You want a bigger gap. I think the 2k is something like 7 and the 1000 is almost 15, so you'd have a progression that went like 15,7,2, which is better than 15,3,2

particle size is not linearly related to the stones grit number.

As far as two stones, I used to go 1,5,15k, but it was absolutely fine to go 1k straight to 15 for me. I'd work the polish right at the edge (bias with finger pressure) and gradually the rest of the back would get polished with subsequent flattenings. There was no difference in sharpness.

I think winton is sword polishing or something with that regime. :)

[Mike Cherry]

You guys are hilarious haha. Thanks for your help! I think Ill grab a 2k stone after double checking the microns out and see where that takes me. I live within driving range of the shop Winton linked to so I might drive down there Monday and grab some goodies ;)

[Winton Applegate]

2k is something like 7 and the 1000 is almost 15
David,
Thanks for reminding me why I went 1200 then 2000 early on.
I had forgotten it was that wide a gap. looks kind of questionable to those who have not looked at the facts up close.


I think winton is sword polishing or something with that regime.

Only in MY MIND David . . . only in MY MIND.:rolleyes:
To all others I am just wasting time.
The imagination is a wonderful thing when properly wielded.

[Prashun Patel]

I have learned so much about sharpening from you david. You are a wealth of knowledge. Thx again.

[Mike Cherry]

Yes, thanks for all the help guys. I ordered a 2k stone since I got free shipping. Looking forward to trying it out.

[David Weaver]

I have learned so much about sharpening from you david. You are a wealth of knowledge. Thx again.

Either that or a tremendous money waster! (when it comes to sharpening stones, I'm definitely a tremendous money waster).

[Winton Applegate]

Mike,
Do post a photo or two when you try out the 2k.
I would be fascinated to see if it gives you the finish you have asked for.

[Jim Koepke]

Either that or a tremendous money waster! (when it comes to sharpening stones, I'm definitely a tremendous money waster).

Makes me recall a meeting that I recently attended...

"Hi, my name is Jim and I sharpen my tools by hand... "

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Me too. I struggle with the same thing. I go from a 1000 to a 4000 to an 8000 and I'm getting sharp but not shiny. I tried the flattening/cleaning/removing swarf thing as recommended by David and Winton yesterday, but I was unable to get shiny.

I was always able to get shiny on my Worksharp, and I think that went from 1000 to 3600 then to 6000.

[Mike Cherry]

Mike,
Do post a photo or two when you try out the 2k.
I would be fascinated to see if it gives you the finish you have asked for.

Will do Winton.

[Winton Applegate]

Prashun,


yesterday, but I was unable to get shiny.

A side question : which 8000 ?
But I would recommend on the final passes with the 8000 to rinse it, shake off the excess water, pull the blade in one direction the length of the stone (as opposed to going around and around in one spot, let the stone get a little dry without a build up of slurry.

Rinse, shake the water off until not a lot on top, so you don't have to spend time rubbing to get down to the stone / the back of the blade hydro planes on a lot of water (or oil).

Not a lot of rubbing, lots of rinsing, not a lot of pressure.

PS: and what blade ? Maybe she is too soft ?

PPS:
flattening

hmmmmm describe that please. I tend to flatten on the diamond plate or coarse stone designed for flattening if I have to but then use a stone like the 4000 to give the final tooth to the stone then rinse off really well to get the 4000 grit off.

If your flattening plate is an extremely coarse grit fixed diamond it is introducing unwanted coarseness to the initial surface and if you are using grit on a flattening plate (or sand paper) perhaps that grit is staying imbedded in your 8000.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks, Winton.

I am using a Shapton 8000, and 1000. I have a (I think) King 4000.

I use an EZ Lap diamond plate (per David!) to flatten all the stones.

Mike,
I had a little Duh/Eureka moment this morning regarding Shiny: Wipe the blade well before moving up in grit. Formerly, I was just half-heartedly swiping the blade on a towel, assuming all the grit would get off. However, I found that if I spend extra time wiping it clean (I mean, several strokes instead of one on the towel) the blade is really a lot shinier than it seems off the stone. If that cloudiness is therefore embedded grit from the stone - and not just scratches, then leaving it on the blade probably impedes the next grit's ability to do its job.

I tried it on 2 blades, and was very happily surprised.

ps: My Worksharp never had this issue. I'm guessing that the dry sharpening does not transfer swarf as readily to the blade as wet sharpening appears to.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

It is like David said originally.
We understand (sounded like you think he didn't understand your original post. He did understand).
If I make slurry or allow slurry to form then I get the cloudiness. If I clean the stone with water and take the nagura over the stone like an eraser to get rid of the blackened areas where there is still metal imbedded in the stone THEN RINSE THE STONE so there is just water on it JUST AS DAVID RECOMMENDED then I get the mirror.

Oh wait, what... re-read.... re-read.... Well that explains some things I have seen and never connected the dots on before.

[Mike Cherry]

I got the 2k stone in yesterday and hope to give it a shot later today. Will report back on my findings.

[Winton Applegate]

Wipe the blade well before moving up in grit.

Prushun,

I am not sure if you saw my post some where (probably another thread) that said : USE LOTS OF WATER . . .
rinse your stones under a faucet using cool water (not just a splash from a groady tub or worse yet a spritz and a wipe . . . nah Dude, nah.
AND RINSE THE BLADES OFF
spick and span
And if you have to wipe it on a towel or rag the said cloth should be clean not contaminated with old grit from past grit wiping or dog drying.

It is worth glancing at how mirrors, magnifying lenses and jewelry metal are polished. Maybe a trip to the library would suffice.
I am not saying it has to be so anal for woodworking tools but if you want the same JEWELRY like finish then you will need to emulate the polishing technique.

ONE STRAY GRIT FROM THE COARSER STONE WILL MEAN A "SCRATCH" (a noticeably prominent line). A LOT OF STRAY GRIT WILL MEAN MANY, MANY, MANY SCRATCHES. Enough of which adds up to a haze over the surface.

[Phil Stone]

I hope this is not a derail, but with all that rinsing of swarf, are you at all concerned about stone residue collecting in your plumbing? I wonder if it all gets caught in the p-trap, which is not the hardest thing in the world to clean out.

[Mike Cherry]

295151295152
Post 2k Post 8k

I think we can agree this is cloudy...and extremely frustrating

[Daniel Rode]

It's not something I would personally be concerned with. I've seen bulky objects and most often hair clog plumbing traps but never sand, dirt or anything resembling swarf. Heavy objects like rings or other metal are likely to settle in the trap. The constant flush of water through the trap tends to carry small light particles with it.

Perhaps a very old drum style trap might allow some to collect but I doubt it.

[David Weaver]

It's unusual to see lines like that on something that was on a shapton 8k. Still, the use test applies - if the chisel behaves like it's sharp, then it doesn't matter what the back looks like.

[Prashun Patel]

Ok, I'm going to guess it's about technique now. Can you photo a pic of your blade and your stones and rags during the process?

[Winton Applegate]

stone residue collecting in your plumbing?

In all seriousness I can see where that could be a problem.
In actual practice here are a few points that come to mind from the hip as it were and I have a very sound and "scientific" way to resolve the validity of this one so stay tuned.

in the past I have had way more problem with coffee grounds. I now dump the coffee grounds in an empty milk carton and put in the trash can.
since my stones have lasted practically for ever and i have never worn one apreaciatably I will post a pic of my oldest stone ( the red king there with the strops and first more elaborate sharpening kit ) . . . the amount of silt in the relatively large drain pipe my kitchen sink drops into must be minuscule. Spread out over that span, to the street over which it would cause a "problem", (as opposed to the trap) I see it as insignificant.
I am full of _____ and so do quite a lot of flushing.
If there is a problem it is called a drain snake and more flushing gentlemen. Perphaps Woodcraft can get rich selling these drain snakes to woodworkers HA, HA, HA, AHHHhhhhh. l love the way my mind works. Keeps me entertained, but not out of trouble. I have my drain snakes so you are not going to get wealthy from this poster.
and finally my landlord is a plumber so I can always plead ignorance which he would easily believe or insanity if it comes to that.
the trap is childs play to clear. Q even removes and clears the one on her bathroom lav her self.

And now it is time for the very sound and "scientific" way to resolve the validity of this one. I would do it myself but due to the fact that I post here more than work wood and so sharpen a little less than some it might not be an enthusiastic experiment.

You all are going to have to get together and determine who sharpens the most with water stones and rinses religiously and that person is going to have to dig up their sewer pipe out in the yard, hack saw (you could use a sawsall but we are Neanders remember) cut out a nice random sample section and post some pics of what you find.
Yuck
Somebody PM me and just describe it I may not have to actually view the photos.
I trust you.

[Winton Applegate]

You really shouldn’t encourage me to keep posting like this. Usually people try to get me to shut the f_____ up.

Keep in mind this is jewelry quality fun and games. You can get away with less for wood working. But as my moniker says “Good enough is good enough but better is better.”

The first photo is of the rags. I used to hang them in the bottom shelf of the pantry just off the kitchen but that was getting to test “the relationship” so before there was a dettante I voluntarily moved them to my closet. Note the Lie-Nielson T-shirt and Duluth fire hose pants (http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens-pants/work-pants-for-men/86125.aspx). All part of the “ESSENTIALS” of the wannabe home shop hand tool woodworker.

From left to right :


bandana
white wash cloth for stone grits 8000 to 15000
yellow wash cloth for stone grits 2000 to 5000
green wash cloth for stone grits 120 to 1000


See second photo; the bandanna in action hangs on the cabinet door. It is to make the final wipe before the blade goes on the stack of blades or into a plane. Just to get the little bit of dampness / clean water off. A hot water rinse leaves not much to dry.

The last photo is of my old mix of stones (not all Shaptons). I lay out the rags (folded on counter in foreground) in the same order so even if I “get color blind” I know which rag when. I rinse the rags every now and then. For a whole bunch of blades in a sharpening session a couple of times. In between rinses I squeeze the excess water out over the sink.

I wipe the jig roller and the neoprene mat (not the blade) with the rags .
That keeps the grit from mixing onto the various stones. I never EVER wipe the stone or the blade with one of these three rags.

You want me to post play by play photos through the grits. Nah, dude, nah that would require me to get up off this couch.
Just picture in your mind going grit to grit slightly altering the angle I pull the back of the blade across the stone to be able to see when I have covered the whole previous surface with the new polish. By the way once you have done the back in the area near the edge you will only need to use your finest or two finest grit stones on the back from then on. For the bevel side I don't look at the surface much and pull the blade with the jig on it like six strokes or even less if it is a very small bevel then I switch stones. Once I get into the 4000 (these days it is 5000 and 8000 some times 150000) range I work the bevel then the back then alternate the bevel for a stroke, or even less than a stroke then the other side alternating and lightening my pressure to very light pressure. Then switch to a finer grit. Obviously rinsing and wiping the above said areas between grits.

Now see . . .
I bet you wished you hadn’t asked.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks winton. I was speaking to mike though. I suspect something is off in his technique since his set up is similar to mine and i am able to get reasonable shine now and i am no pro.

[Winton Applegate]

...................oh

[Pat Barry]

...................oh
Its OK Winton - I appreciate your knowledge

[Pat Barry]

295151295152
Post 2k Post 8k

I think we can agree this is cloudy...and extremely frustrating
My unbiased opinion is that either the chisel back or the stone is not flat. Why do I say that? Because the edges look different than the middle.

[Prashun Patel]

Didnt say i wasnt impressed with, (read, a little frightened of) your thoroughness.

[Daniel Rode]

+1

Didnt say i wasnt impressed with, (read, a little frightened of) your thoroughness.

Winton, I suspect I could eat off of your workshop floor :)

[Winton Applegate]

(read, a little frightened of) your thoroughness.
It scares me at times.

Winton, I suspect I could eat off of your workshop floor :)
Well you would have lots to eat; as long as you like shavings and dead crickets.

[Mike Cherry]

Sorry guys got a little busy around here.

Winton, that's quite the process you have there. I appreciate you providing your process for me to try and get myself straightened out

Prashun, I'll save the photos for now and come "clean" lol I use the same rag during the entire process. In all honesty I didn't know I needed to be that thorough.

Dial up up a vid on YouTube from lie nielsen on sharpening and That one guy that shows his sharpening routine doesn't go through several rags when changing grits. It's small factors like this that cause new guys so much frustration at times. I'm trying to keep it all in perspective because I know when I have that"aha" moment it will all be worth it.

When I have the back of a chisel or plane bade on my 8k it gets a lot of suction and sometimes I can't even move my blade. Is this normal? How come sometimes my 8k feels like the blade is hydro planing? The first thing I sharpened on these stones were my Narex bench chisels. I have since learned that sometimes chisels have a finish on them that need removing before sharpening. Would not removing this finish damage my stones at all?

[Prashun Patel]

I also have the narex chisels. I do notice that my chisels hold better edges now than they did in the beginning, but that had nothing to do with shiny. I totally relate to your frustration on things like this. A local creeker, wilbut pan, was generous enough to meet me in person and show me how he does it. Then he watched me do it. It was very helpful. My problem at that time was more severe than yours; i just couldnt get sharp on waterstones.

so, you might try starting a new read asking for local help where you are. Two heads banging against a wall are better than one ( or something like that ;))

[Mike Cherry]

I have had some local people extend their willingness to help with other matters before, perhaps I'll ask them. Thanks Prashun. So you noticed a significant change when being much more careful when moving between stones? Was this your moment when it all started working for you?

Im starting to think I should just use the scary sharp for flattening the backs and only use my stones for honing.

[Prashun Patel]

The shiny thing seems to have been an issue of wiping for me.
The sharp thing was/is a matter of practice and patience. The more (and more frequently) I do it, the easier it gets. I'm still not there, but I'm further than I was a year ago

One thing I notice on your pictures is perhaps you are trying to flatten TOO MUCH of the back. Have you tried only working the area 1/2" from the tip? It just may be that you're not spending long enough on the coarse stone to get the whole back in a state that can be polished by the higher grits. When doing a whole back, it can take a long time. (I use a Worksharp for that, but I wouldn't recommend you buy yet another device.) Beware when doing this that you don't create a back bevel. That's a no-no on chisels I hear. I believe you want a large enough flat area to serve as a reference when paring.

Are you able to get your bevel shiny? That's usually a lot easier to do, and especially easy to do if you are only honing a micro bevel.

I will try to take a pic tonight of my chisel back. They aren't pretty, but the area near the tip is flat and shiny.

[Mike Cherry]

Yea I am certainly able to get highly polished on the bevel normally. Which I guess is what causes my frustration with the backs of blades because I know my stones are capable of shiny. I'm just. It getting them there. When I look at what I just stated, perhaps it makes sense that I am not completely flat and therefore not getting shiny on the backs.

[David Weaver]

I wonder if those scratches are from a prior stone, or if they're occurring on your final stone because of contamination or a problem. We'll never know until you clean everything off and work one of those chisel backs for an hour with no improvement. Those lines should disappear earlier than that, though, if they're from a prior stone.

I wouldn't do it, though - I'd just use the tools, and if the lines would come out, they'll eventually do it just from successive polishing of the back as part of the sharpening.

[Prashun Patel]

Do you have coarse sandpaper (150,240,600) and a flat stone or glass that you scary sharp flatten the back with first? I suppose the 1000 is just too fine to flatten a large surface efficiently with.
You might be able to try using your flattening plate this once - just to test the theory. I suppose long term it's not a good idea.

[Daniel Rode]

If you really, really want it shiny, some green stropping compound on MDF will do the trick. I don't know that they will be any sharper but they will be shiny.

[David Weaver]

If you really, really want it shiny, some green stropping compound on MDF will do the trick. I don't know that they will be any sharper but they will be shiny.

The wax in those sticks hides the scratches a little, too. Autosol also does that, makes the polish look better because it has a slick of stuff in it that fills the grooves.

For anyone playing, by the way, autosol on MDF is a fantastic polisher for the backs of tools. Just a bit of care needed on the MDF not to run the end of the tool in the middle of the MDF for a while and develop sway in the middle or the chisel, etc will get a microbelly. The only detriment to autosol (which I believe is closely graded 3 micron aluminum oxide) is the black coating that it leaves on tools. That comes off of the back of a chisel and onto whatever's being chiseled - looks like soot.

[Mike Cherry]

I don't know, I have a strop coming Ill try that out. I think I am going to try really hard and just leave good enough alone. The tools are sharp and in the end I'd rather be working wood than polishing metal. Thanks for trying to get me sorted everyone. I'm sure I'll get there one day haha.