Crosscut backsaw advice

[Daniel Rode]

I'm considering getting a backsaw for crosscuts at the bench. This would be for cutting shoulders, miters, cutting small stock to length, etc. Because of the combination of price and quality, the Veritas 14pt carcass saw is at the top of my list. I have the 20pt dovetail saw and it's been great. $80 and I can take it out of the box and use it right away.

However, I'm also thinking about a vintage saw instead. I'd need to acquire a saw set, (maybe a tooth jointer?) and some saw files. It's a lot to learn but at some point I'm going to need to learn to sharpen and set saws, so maybe now is the time?

I understand the process of saw sharpening but have no skill or tools. A finer crosscut saw (12-16 pt) seems like a tough place to start. A 7 tpi rip would be much easier, I'd think.

Lastly, there's the hunt for a saw. I'm probably limited to eBay or the classifieds here. No time for prowling garage sales and antique stores. I'm pretty clueless on how to choose one. In addition, I want to limit my first attempt to resharpening. I don't want to fix or replace the handle or try to straighten the blade. I'm not real sure how to hunt down a decent candidate.



What saw set? I'm a hobbyist, so I don't need industrial strength.
What file(s)? I'm only concerned with sharpening backsaws at this point.
Do I need a tooth jointer or any other tools?
Can I make a saw vice? If not, any advice on buying one?

[David Weaver]

* 42x sawset
* depends on the tooth count - if it's 13-14 (a common tooth size on disston saws and other heavy plated older saws) then something like a 5 xx slim is a good idea (just buy one or two from someone who will take them back if you get one that's warped - bahco doesn't sell xx slim files in the US, so you'll probably have to get grobet)
* a bastard file that's actually straight is fine for jointing, as is any other flat file or even a diamond hone if not much needs to be jointed
* If you have a metal/bench vise, just put two boards in the vise jaws along the tooth line and you have a saw vise for small saws. If you have a large metal bench vise, you can do it with large saws, too.

You want a vintage saw that's fairly straight with good teeth. I think you want something 13/14 tpi, and here's why - it will crosscut stuff fine, including finer work (as opposed to trying to start with a larger toothed saw that may break out the back of some fine cuts when you start, or grip at the start more than you want in deliicate work. If you find trouble sharpening a 13/14 tooth saw crosscut, you can file it rip with 15 degrees of rake and use it for crosscutting. And then add fleam another time when you feel like taking another shot. And you won't need to add much fleam, so it should be fairly easy to do.

[David Weaver]

Another aside, I wouldn't get something too too old (like unidentifiable split nuts, etc) for your first saw because the older a saw is, the better the chance it will have brittle teeth. If you think it sucks to cut fresh teeth in a saw, wait until you do it and then three break off when you set them. That *sucks*. Avoid any saws that have broken teeth for that reason.

A disston 4 or something of the sort in 12" length should be buyable for about $40. They are everywhere, avoid any that have pitting for a crosscut saw. Dark plate is OK, pits no. Everything else should be complete and solid. English saws of the late 1800s time frame are also nice, a little more delicate, but a bit harder to find.

Avoid saws that look like they came from a miter box - they'll have a fat plate and be heavy, even if they're just 16" type saws. If you're doing furniture type stuff, the 12 inch saws are a nice size.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks David!

Is there an important difference between the 42x and the other 42 saw sets? I see some just labeled 42, others 42ss or 42w.

[Steve Voigt]

What saw set? I'm a hobbyist, so I don't need industrial strength.
What file(s)? I'm only concerned with sharpening backsaws at this point.
Do I need a tooth jointer or any other tools?
Can I make a saw vice? If not, any advice on buying one?



Just my opinion:

* The 42x is prized but pricey. Lots of others will work. The Eclipse 77 is very nice. The Disston Triumph 28 and 280 work great on coarser saws, but are a bit limiting on very fine teeth. Taintor's positive no.7 is another I like (for fine teeth). If you can't afford the 42x, get something else. There's also the new Somax sets, if TFFW still sells them.
* Don't buy any files til you get the saw. Then look on the LN website. They tell you which file you need. Their prices are very reasonable. Also, if you need a 6" XX or larger, you can probably find a Nicholson at the local hardware store or borg. They are not great, but they work, and it's a good way to get your feet wet. In my opinion, buying whole sets of files is a money pit.
* What Dave said. Any old flat file. I have never used or made a holder--just do your best to file perpendicular to the plate.
* Yes, you can easily make a saw vise for $4 in hinges and some scrap lumber. See mine below, but there are lots of other designs on the web.

Regarding ebay, I've bought 5 vintages disstons there. One needed extensive work, the other 4 just needed sharpening and cleaning. My average price is around $25 plus shipping. Buy from someone who:
* has a very high rating--99.8% or higher. 99.5 would be great in most things in life, but it sucks on ebay.
* shows lots of pictures and will answer any questions.
* Specifically mentions (ask if necessary) the saw is straight, free of kinks, etc.
* has a reasonable return policy.

Good luck!

294753

294754

[Judson Green]

I have a iron saw vise but ended up making one (sans the hinges - its a two piece) much like Steve's but longer - about 24" maybe more. I could probably glue the two parts together at the bottom as I feel the plywood would flex enough to give a good grip but haven't.

[Jim Matthews]

If you're buying used get a good one, already tuned up from Mike Allen.
If you're buying new, get one from Ron Bontz while you can.
(I use one that's not so flashy, and it cuts like stink.)


Learn how to keep it sharp, then progress to rehab projects.
If you're intent is to use tools, start with one that's ready.

I file all my saws with teeth finer than 10 TPI progressive rip cut.
It's slower going, but I get decent results.

I can't really see teeth smaller than 20 TPI, so I'm just guessing until
I take the saw to a board for a test drive.

The advantage of filing rip is that even if I misfile a tooth or two,
when I flip the saw around, things even out.

As to sets, I bought the Somax.
No fuss, works everytime and will get used weekly in my shop.

[Kim Malmberg]

All above advice is sound. I would still go with Jim in that when or if you acquire a first vintage saw you might want to buy it from someone who can be trusted. Someone who will sell you a straight saw with well shaped teeth which you can easily retouch just by tracing already sound shapes. And as far as saw sets goes I think the Somax saw set is excellent value for money. I have both the blue and golden version and they are my most used saw sets. They also have the advantage of being able to reach in tight spaces below the handle.

[Daniel Rode]

My budget for saw and tools is no more than $100. If I buy new, it would have to be the Veritas carcass saw. It's the only quality saw in that price range.


If you're buying used get a good one, already tuned up from Mike Allen.
If you're buying new, get one from Ron Bontz while you can.

[David Weaver]

Tell you what, if you get into a bind and have a file and a saw that has decent teeth, but manage to bungle them a little bit, you can mail the pair to me and I'll straighten it out and get you a good set of teeth to start with (for the cost to ship it both ways). You can do a lot of crosscut sawing with a saw of the Disston #4 type before it needs to be resharpened. I'm close to you and it wouldn't cost much to do that.

Look for something of the turn of the century disston #4 era.

The veritas is a decent option, too.

I'm a bit of a kook, but I just don't love the idea that someone who is just getting started has to unload a bunch of money to get a "refinished" saw to get going. It's money that you'll never get back, which is OK if you don't mind that fact, but when you're starting on a beer budget, I'll help you get a good beer.

Keep your eyes open for stuff that looks like this (no idea where this will end up price wise, but it's the kind of dark but clean plate you're looking for, and with a good set of teeth):


141374115579

(open your search to simonds and atkins, etc, they all made similar saws at the time - plate thickness is about the same, weight is about the same, handle, ...)

It looks like prices have gone up a little bit. I'd still look for clean (not shiny stainless type looking steel - those later saws are soft) unpitted saws and use something like esnipe until you get a decent one 13tpi or finer for about $50 or less.

[Sam Stephens]

I also found the price for the stanley 42x a bit high. I have the somax, the version for finer teeth. I use the least amt of set generally (highest setting). Not sure if other saws allow for less set which I'd prefer. For a saw vise, I have two boards ~1 1/2"-2 wide screwed together at one end and planed a few strokes between the boards for relief for the saw plate -clamp it in a bench vise, leg vise etc works well. I have different lengths for back, panel and full size saws. For fleam, I measured the angle and drew the guide lines on the boards noting the direction of the toe/heel of the saw -just keep the file at that angle and it's pretty easy to do after a few tries. Definitely no pro, so if someone like David offered to sharpen, I'd take him up on his offer. I have a veritas carcase saw that I like, but the vintage ones are good too if the price is right.

[Tom M King]

I used a 42W, that I bought new, for years before I knew anything about a 42X. I'd wait and get the 42X. You might not even need a set to start with. If the teeth aren't nubs, you might be able to sharpen it a couple of times before you need to set the teeth. All of mine are old ones, and most came with too much set anyway.

Once you develop a feel for a sharp one, whet it when your stroke counts goes up, but not WAY up. I'll whet one a couple of times before it needs to be set or jointed. Ideally, I like to be able to take one minimum pressure, full stroke with the file. Lighter strokes leave a smoother finish on the face of a tooth anyway, and more than one stroke needed starts to become a job, not to mention how much more work went into using the saw if you let it get that dull.

[Richard Line]

I have the LV saw, and I think it is a good saw, one that I will keep using and use a lot. Contrary to most of the above advise, I suggest going with the LV saw so there isn't any pressure to learn sharpening right off the bat. Learning to sharpen saws is much easier on coarser toothed saws, especially rip. You can pick up a decent 8 point saw fairly easily, and learn sharpening on it; it will also be good for breaking down boards to near final size.

Making your own saw vise is easy, but you'll probably make a couple before your satisfied. You can easily make a jointing guide from a piece of wood, just cut a groove that fits the file, and then put a machine screw in to hold the file (no thread insert required). When you get ready to start sharpening, consider getting the Somax set. Also consider getting the LV saw filing guide; I'm glad I have mine, also check out the thread on them that ran a few months back. I've found many (most?) saws have too much set. Reducing the set can be easily done using smooth metal vice jaws and 1 or 2 layers of newsprint around the teeth.

Good luck and have fun with your hunt.