Because one can never have too many... right?

[David Barnett]

Joe Tilson's recent thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220546-Just-one-small-Gloat!) gloats about his dividers/compasses find and rightly so. Jim Koepke responded that his Starrett dividers "are a bit big for everyday woodwork." Mine aren't. Well, at least not these...

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...the discontinued Starrett 277-2 round leg machinist dividers coveted by jewelry makers, engravers, gunsmiths, tool makers, model makers and so on. I have a lot of these little 2" dividers in my various shop venues and they're probably my most used tools, spanning all my eclectic craft domains, including woodworking—mouldings, inlay, boxes, hardware and joinery layout, carving, on and on. I have a lot of longer Starrett round leg dividers, too, but these are easily my favorite and a pair stays in my apron pocket along with a 6" rule, a 4" calipers, scribe, mechanical pencil and 10x loupe.

So why am I posting this if Starrett no makes them? [Starrett does still make the 3" 277-3 for now. (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/1-Precision-Measuring-Tools/11-Precision-Hand-Tools/1113-Calipers,-Dividers-and-Tram/111301-Calipers-and-Dividers/277-3)] Do I need to gloat? To feel the envy? Not at all. Rather than just another gloat, this is a heads-up. For craftsmen who've had to pay a premium on eBay and from vintage tool sellers, there's finally an alternative. The jewelry-making supplier, Contenti, is now offering a 277-2 knock-off for $12.90 (http://www.contenti.com/products/_new_items/_item.html?itemno=240-032&secthome=gauges).
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Yes, it's from Pakistan, and no it's not going to be a Starrett, although it does have a hardened fulcrum stud (holds a setting) and the solid nut—but it is inexpensive enough to try one or two, I'd think.

Two things—I've not yet tried one so can't say if the threading is as fine as the Starrett, which may not be as important to woodworkers as machinists or bench jewelers, and I can't say if the leg tips are as hard as the Starrett's, also likely more important for metalworkers, but for $12.90 I'd give them a try. If they're not for you, Contenti gives refunds with no problems—good company, good customer service.

As for round legs versus square, I'll save that for later.

[george wilson]

Though I am quite surfeit with calipers and dividers,it is always good to see that somewhere someone is making a tool that is good enough to meet your seal of approval. That is a rather sad state of affairs,isn't it? Why did we used to have good stuff readily available? Craftsmen knew better. At least we have a resurgence in good woodworking tools. But metal tools,even a decent file? Better search for NOS ones.

My favorites are my Fay leg(square cross section,tapered legs) Starrett calipers. Old Lufkins are just as good,as are old Brown and Sharpe(who knows where that brand is made these days!!)

As many as I have,yet,whenever I go to a flea market and see a really good condition divider,I am always tempted to buy it. I also buy NOS Starrett center punches. My wife(who makes jewelry),always wonders why I bring her a new,small size Starrett center punch when I go to the Cabin Fever Expo. I finally have it through my head that she has enough,I suppose.

Do you all know that if you grind the point of a center punch into a neat 3 sided tip,your drill (in drilling metal) will not wander about like it frequently will with the usual round punch mark? This is a tip worth remembering. Also,buy yourself some cakes of camphor and keep them in your CLOSED tool box to prevent rust. Synthetic camphor seems to also work. It used to be purchased at drug stores,but what useful extras like that can be had there these days? Nada. Get it on line. Keep the unused cakes tightly sealed up. They slowly dissolve till they are gone in the tool chest after they are opened. They seem to leave a microscopic layer of wax or oil on the tools,keeping them from rusting.

[David Barnett]

Though I am quite surfeit with calipers and dividers,it is always good to see that somewhere someone is making a tool that is good enough to meet your seal of approval.

Well, it hasn't quite earned that—mine hasn't arrived yet—but it is 2" and it does have round legs, so I'm hoping for the best. I certainly don't need another one—I have a drawerful in my machinist's chest (hey, I use several at a time) and more in other shop areas—but I'll take a look at this one before passing it along to a friend. More than once I've felt uneasy because I wouldn't part with my hoard, so finding a source for others can assuage my troubled soul.


That is a rather sad state of affairs,isn't it? Why did we used to have good stuff readily available? Craftsmen knew better. At least we have a resurgence in good woodworking tools. But metal tools,even a decent file? Better search for NOS ones.

Jewelers and engravers bemoaned the loss of these once readily available
tools and have had to settle for the 3" 277-3 or buy the German-made 2½" dividers with too-thick square legs.


My favorites are my Fay leg(square cross section,tapered legs) Starrett calipers. Old Lufkins are just as good,as are old Brown and Sharpe(who knows where that brand is made these days!!)

The Fays are nice and taper long enough where they need to. I have Lufkins and B&S, too, and the round leg Lufkins are almost dead ringers for the Starretts.


As many as I have,yet,whenever I go to a flea market and see a really good condition divider,I am always tempted to buy it. I also buy NOS Starrett center punches. My wife(who makes jewelry),always wonders why I bring her a new,small size Starrett center punch when I go to the Cabin Fever Expo. I finally have it through my head that she has enough,I suppose.

Oh, center punches. Another can't-have-too-many tool, in my book, especially as they can be so easily modified and re-purposed.

Great tip on the center punch. Another thing I do is to widen the cone angle on punches used more for leather or woodworking. A few other punches are ground birdcage for easy and quick drilling, too.

As for camphor, I buy it these days on eBay and have it in my closets, cabinets, drawers, chests, and so on. Besides preventing rust, I like the smell.

[Jim Koepke]

That is a rather sad state of affairs,isn't it? Why did we used to have good stuff readily available? Craftsmen knew better.

Computer controlled machines do not need dividers.

Craftsmen have lost their market to mass produced, low cost, disposable furnishings.

Look at all the drafting kits for sell on ebay. Computers do not need them hence anyone making a living today doing drawings better know how to do it with a computer. The positions for people who can do it by hand are becoming fewer and further between.

It is hard to make a living in such a small market while trying to make something that was once a common tool.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

When I'm working on a project, my dividers pretty much stay on the bench.

I'm so absent minded I need more than one pair. My second pair is a compass with a small nail instead of the lead.

I also have a navigators divider, but it doesn't lend itself to woodworking.

Just curious, why are they known as a pair of dividers when there is only one?

[george wilson]

In college in 1959,I was lucky to get tutelage from an old Navy machinist. He wore wide,WWII Hula girl painted neck ties. Only wore THOSE because he HAD to,being technically a college professor. They were making him go to night school to get a degree,which was ridiculous. The man could take a plate of brass,cut it in the milling machine,check it with a square,and give it a whack with a dead blow mallet. Next cut,the plate would be milled perfectly square. He'd say "You know,that ain't a damned thing but experience". Hardly acceptable professorial language,but one of the most valuable bits of learning I picked up. Most of the other pedagogical yammer(from the degreed professors) went in one ear and out the other. After I passed the tests,the history of education was forgotten along with the rest. I wanted to be a craftsman. The other teaching I retained was from my sculpture teacher: things like "Less talk,more work",and Shut up and get busy". And,"If you're going to be a good guy,be real good. If a bad guy,be a real SOB". Meaning,if something is made to be square,don't round the corners off half heartedly. If it's to be round,make it VERY round(referring to tool handles).

The old machinist taught me to feel a thousandth with calipers,like they used to do in the old days,before expensive micrometers were common in the average machinist's chest. I mean,turn a cylinder,and feel along it to see if it were all within .001" the same diameter.

We had 18th. C. microscopes in the museum collection which were certainly made by feeling with dividers the same way,and without even slide rests. They had to be accurate,because they relied upon slide fits of their tubes to stay focused. I checked one microscope,and it was sure enough,not even a thou off of the same diameter all along the length of its brass tube.

These simple tools were of great use and importance to the early machinist,and they had to be properly made to stay snug at all settings. Most of mine are from the late 19th. -early 20th. C.,where they would have been heavily relied upon.

My dividers have long ago been user ground with one leg slightly longer than the other. That way,they can still scribe circles,but also be used to catch the longer leg over the edge of a piece of metal,and scribe a line parallel to that edge when needed.

There was a special divider made for that purpose,called a hermaphrodite caliper. It had one leg made a divider,but the other leg was a caliper. The caliper leg hugged the edge of a workpiece,while the sharp pointed divider did the scribing. I know they were not common,because you seldom find them. They cost extra money,and the old machinists,being very economical,just filed one leg short on their normal dividers,made a meager living,and lived in little houses, while they made the country and helped immeasurably to win wars from behind the scenes. Their main reward for working for little pay,in dark shops full of dangerous belting and open gears,and harmful chemicals,was the pride they took in their work. In welds that held when ships rammed other ships,and in engines that kept working while crossing oceans. The aircraft that brought their crews and passengers home safely over millions of collectively flown miles.

They knew how to get along with nearly nothing,and I knew a few of those old timers. I soaked up knowledge from them like a sponge,learning many little dodges to get work done with simple means.

[Mel Fulks]

George, some interesting info and anecdotes there. Could be used as voice over for a Smithsonian movie. Gonna get my
wife to print that out.

[george wilson]

Thank you,Mel. That is about the nicest thing anyone has said about one of my posts.

[Joe Tilson]

George I think we all have a great deal of respect for you and your skills.
Thanks for the post,
Joe

[Michael Ray Smith]

A couple-three years ago I bought a chest of machinists's tools used in the 1940's (I know because it had a union card with a receipt for union dues). I sold most of them and kept a few that looked handy for woodworking or otherwise interested me. Almost all of the tools were quality names -- Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, E.C. Atkins (they sold a lot more than handsaws) -- One of the most useful has been a small set of Starrett dividers (max span about 7/8"). The biggest surprise was just a couple of set-up blocks that I've used for all sorts of random things, like setting the blade of a rabbet plane flush with the side. Here are some of the ones I kept, the ones I could lay my hands on quickly for a picture. (Anyone know what that little guy with the hook on the end is? George?)
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[Tom Vanzant]

My FIL gave me a divider a couple of years ago. Just a simple lapped pivot and an arced arm marked off with hatch-marks. The setting is a screw (replacement) bottoming on the arm with a fine-tuning adjustment w/ flat spring. Overall length is just under 7 3/4". Legs are square but nicely tapered to the points. Only marking is stamped CRUSADER *.
Works nicely laying out DTs or whatever.

[george wilson]

Not sure about the hook. Seems too sharp to be a hook button shoe hook.

[Matt McCormick]

The hook tool looks like a o-ring tool. Just a guess

[Jim Koepke]

Anyone know what that little guy with the hook on the end is?

There are a lot of things it could be.

Besides an o-ring pick it could also be used as a small spring mounting/dismounting tool.

A search on > machinist hook tool < shows a lot of similar items.

jtk

[Lonnie Gallaher]

It looks like an o-ring removal tool

[Winton Applegate]

Three flats on a punch. I will have to try that.

My habit has always been to ‘“prick punch” the center THEN center punch to widen it then if it is important even use a third larger punch with the more obtuse angle see the three angles of punches out of the four in the photo. The short fat punch was one of my Dad’s and falls some where in between I suppose.

There’s your hemaphrodites and Starrett punches (see my photo). I have no idea where I came across those dividers. It may have been a machine shop supply in Denver, CO. That would have been over thirty years ago. An older women we all called “Mother” owned it. She was a machinist during the war (WWII).

And finally at the top of the photo is one of the things I was working on in the shop today. I need to tweak / bend stuff all the time at work and in the long past I worked in a shop that had a small “monkey wrench” I used it all the time to bend / tweak stuff. I didn’t realize until just recently how much I missed that wrench. I always try to make due by putting a crescent wrench in the what ever and sticking a screw driver or socket extension through the hole in the handle and either abusing the heck out of the crescent wrench or wishing that it worked.

Often the jaws of the crescent or channel locks (which never have the right kind of angle to it to use as a sideways bending thing but that doesn’t stop me from trying on a daily basis. Anyway the crescent wrench and channel lock arc joint pliers have jaws that are way too fat to get in where I need to work.
I warned you I am a slow learner.
Since the stock monkey wrench jaws can not get into every situation, especially the main application I have in mind for these things, and since I bought these monkey wrenches just for tweaking (never wrenching); today I pulled out the magic marker and the hacksaw and did a little surgery.

AAAAaaaahhhh

THERE that’s better. See the 90° areas I cut out. I tend to use these in pairs. One to stabilize and one to do the moving.
I think I will call them my tweakers when they are roaming in pairs and Dinosaur wrench when found solitarily. I wonder that the archeologists will make of them say, a thousand years from now.

Now at home I have all kinds of simple fork like benders that I have welded up on the spot to do certain repetitive jobs. I don’t want to take them to work though so until now I suffered in silence.

No more !

Say have any of you looked at the price of a new monkey wrench ? Asssssstounding !
I mean . . . I mmmmmeeeeeeeaaaaaan !
You would think they were made by Snap-On and came with a jewelry polish.
During the search I came across this Facom tool company. Apparently they are the Snap-On of Europe or something. To get them into the USA some how they hook the words Stanley and Proto to their name to make it Stanley-Proto-Facom (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002FCGDE8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
The Facom monkey wrenches seemed to nearly always be associated with air craft tools. I am still trying to picture that one. Air craft . . . monkey wrench . . . air craft . . . monkey wrench . . . hmmmmmm


they made the country and helped immeasurably . . . Their main reward for working for little pay,in dark shops full of dangerous belting and open gears,and harmful chemicals,was the pride they took in their work. In welds that held when ships rammed other ships,and in engines that kept working while crossing oceans. The aircraft that brought their crews and passengers home safely over millions of collectively flown miles.

YES SIR ! You said it !

anyway there’s my post. Sorry I got all on that monkey.

PS: now that I have looked at the wrench from the perspective of a postage stamp size photo I now see that the flat horn sticking off the end serves absolutely no purpose and should be cut off.

[george wilson]

Sorry,that is not a true monkey wrench. I don't have a picture handy,but they are more primitive,blackened forged steel,and have wooden slab inserts in the handle,and big,clunkier square jaws. Not sure what yours would be called.:)

[Winton Applegate]

G. W.,

I got your monkey . . . right here (see photos).
How about that one ?

Note I did a little more surgery on the smallest one. Got rid of that useless horn. As you can see the horn on the middle sized one at least has a hope of reinforcing the root of the jaw. (I will probably saw that off tomorrow)


Not sure what yours would be called.:)

Oh I solved that . . . a dinosaur wrench. :p

PS: George you didn't say if my dividers is what you were talking about.

There was a special divider made for that purpose,called a hermaphrodite caliper. It had one leg made a divider,but the other leg was a caliper.

Well ?
Young man ?
What have you to say to that ?

PPS: the small one I used on the very last thing I did at work today. Totally saved my bacon. Like buuuddah.

[Winton Applegate]

George W.,

Are you there ?
over . . .
What do you think about the bigger wrench I posted last and the dividers ?
over . . . .

[Bill Houghton]

Anyone know what that little guy with the hook on the end is?
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Looks like a scriber: http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/1-Precision-Measuring-Tools/11-Precision-Hand-Tools/1116-Precision-Shop-Tools/111602-Scribers/67A

As a result of a yard sale that we stumbled over last Saturday, I've joined David Barnett's tiny dividers club - plus tiny outside calipers and tiny C-clamp thrown in:

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[David Barnett]

As a result of a yard sale that we stumbled over last Saturday, I've joined David Barnett's tiny dividers club - plus tiny outside calipers and tiny C-clamp thrown in:

You are hereby enrolled as a member in good standing, Bill, and are free to donate your dues to the charity of your choice. Nice find, by the way. Tiny dividers, calipers, pin vises, miniature clamps—love 'em all.


Looks like a scriber: http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/1-Precision-Measuring-Tools/11-Precision-Hand-Tools/1116-Precision-Shop-Tools/111602-Scribers/67A

Hooked scribers are useful for getting into awkward or cramped spaces, especially on in-place machinery, automotive, aviation, stuff like that. Useful for machinists and mechanics when troubleshooting or modifying. They're also convenient for retrieving washers and other small parts when magnetized.

[Bill Houghton]

I picked up some General Tool spring installation tools - one with a 90-degree hook, and one with a curved hook like a pirate's - which are marvelous for parts retrieval, too.

[george wilson]

Winton,your larger wrench,seen on the top of the picture,is the closest thing to a true monkey wrench. But,it still doesn't quite make it. At least,in my opinion.

I wish I had one to show you,but I never wanted one. They are so homely looking!:)

[bridger berdel]

You are hereby enrolled as a member in good standing, Bill, and are free to donate your dues to the charity of your choice. Nice find, by the way. Tiny dividers, calipers, pin vises, miniature clamps—love 'em all.



Hooked scribers are useful for getting into awkward or cramped spaces, especially on in-place machinery, automotive, aviation, stuff like that. Useful for machinists and mechanics when troubleshooting or modifying. They're also convenient for retrieving washers and other small parts when magnetized.

and the ones with tiny thin hooks like that are good for removing and installing O rings.