Woodworking for a living?

[Michael Yadfar]

By woodworking I mean working out of a shop, not carpentry. I woodwork as a hobby, an expensive hobby, and I'm relatively new at it. Woodworking is something I've considered as a career, and I feel like it's more of a side job or retirement type of career. I'm in the horticultural field and that's a big hobby too, so I do have a career with steady employment, so I don't plan to give it up to wood work full time. However though, I'm interested in what people have to say that do it as a career.

Anyway, the conclusion of my thought is that it wouldn't make a career. Again, I'm not talking carpentry like basement remodels and such, which people have suggested and also consider woodworking since you can built some neat custom stuff, but I'm speaking if working out of a shop. I feel you can become successful if you are confident you can make a name for yourself, but that's what you HAVE to do. From personal experience, it's impossible to match conventional furniture prices, because I typically use higher quality materials, build to higher standards, and don't have an assembly line. It takes hours more doing it yourself at high quality. I also feel there's little demand for the stuff too (unless you make a name for yourself) simply because typical consumers can't even tell the difference between venire and solid wood, let alone fine details, so they will go for the lower price.

[Mark Bolton]

Its definitely difficult. Its my opinion you have to have a firm eye on business and can in no way get caught in the romance of what "you" want to make or what "you" like.

I think makers of anything who are successful, other than a very rare few, will tell you that they make what sells and wait/hope for the rare opportunities to make work you really like.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Well, custom casework is relatively simple to break into. There's demand, but whether or not you'll find it simple to get the money you want, especially as a single-person operation is another matter. You might consider installing Ikea type kitchens for awhile to get a feel for that side of the cabinet business. Technically you can just order everything from other shops and manufacturers and just do assembly and installation. It's arguably not woodworking but you get paid for managing and selling the job just the same.

Jim Tolpin wrote a couple of books on making cabinets for a living. I recommend reading one of those.

In terms of being a furniture maker my advice is, while you have the income from your other job, is to develop mastery skills beyond joinery. Finishing, veneering, things like that you can use to give your work proprietary appeal. Some people who make studio furniture have a basically free source of fine wood as managers of some sort of large piece of wooded land. This is a considerable advantage for certain styles of work.

For fine furniture, there's also the matter of locating yourself in an area where there is a sufficient wealthy population to buy your work.

[Justin Ludwig]

Its definitely difficult. Its my opinion you have to have a firm eye on business and can in no way get caught in the romance of what "you" want to make or what "you" like.

I think makers of anything who are successful, other than a very rare few, will tell you that they make what sells and wait/hope for the rare opportunities to make work you really like.

I agree.

I've only been given carte blanche on a job once in 3 years. Though, most of my ideas get included into the clients ideal end product. For the most part, it's trying to make the cabinets fit their budget, and that can be rather boring sometimes in terms of design.

[Michael Yadfar]

Its definitely difficult. Its my opinion you have to have a firm eye on business and can in no way get caught in the romance of what "you" want to make or what "you" like.

I think makers of anything who are successful, other than a very rare few, will tell you that they make what sells and wait/hope for the rare opportunities to make work you really like.

Thats probably why I wouldn't be successful wood worker as a living. I can't cut corners or build to quality lower than my standards, but if someone wants to pay x amount of dollars for a table, that's what I would have to do. I remember back in high school, I was building a lamp and the school year ran out on me. The teacher told me to do one less coat of finish, and then I asked if he will be around after school ends. He said "yes, why?", and I told him that if I finish this thing I want to finish it right, even after school ends. He told me that's the best thing a student ever told him in 35 years and he will remember that for the rest of his life

[john lawson]

You can make a living at it, especially if you live in a large metropolitan area. I did it and now my son has taken over my shop. But as another father/son team once said "it's a hard way to make a good living or a good way to make a hard living". My son is probably making 50 to 60k now after 2 years.

We focused on a couple of markets that allowed us to grow and still do work we enjoyed. One is furniture repair. It is very good if you can learn to do touch up work. There are a lot of people who will pay $75 to have a chair re-glued properly, and many times it will take an hour or less. There are also a lot of antique case pieces that people have a sentimental attachment to, and they will pay to have them veneered or new legs made. Another market is designers who will commission custom pieces. We have made many custom pieces for designers that are made from a picture. Once you get the reputation of being able to duplicate a photo people will hear about and bring you work. We made many four poster beds over the years.

Here are a couple of other ideas. Decide if you will pick up and deliver or not. If you do the pickup and deliver be sure you charge for it because you will spend way too much time doing just that. It will also encourage people to ask you to "come look at this" and then they will decide not to use you because of price. NOT offering pick up and delivery will save a lot of time and allow you to focus in your shop, but you will obviously miss out on some business as well.

Last, will it be just you or will you have someone to help? Depending on your physical condition and age this could be the most important single question. If there are two of you you can take on larger work. After I stopped working in my shop my son took on a sub tenant who rents the front 1/3rd of the shop and does upholstry. They help each other move large pieces around the shop and it really helps both of them. There is also some synergy from customers who use both of them on some pieces.

[johnny means]

These are my favorite answers to that question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9hIXiM-yrY

Sorry if I seem negative, but it's really hard to work in this field and not be jaded.

[john lawson]

Those videos are hilarious, and so much truth in them!!

[Mark Bolton]

Well it's not that inherently being in business you have to lower your standards or do poor quality work though its something that comes up often.

Its no different than any profession, you are going to have a hard time being sucessfull if your always delivering substantially more than your being compensated for. It'd be like working an extra 10 hours a week for a company that doesn't pay overtime and is never going to promote you. Its just bad business.

What really happens in my experience is what Justin outlined. You spend a lot of time working with your customer to come to a balance between the customers budget, your standards, and what you can deliver based on those two criteria.

Just pointing out that its not fair to believe that anyone in business is reducing their quality to be in business. I understand the concept though from the hobby world where over engineering and over thinking is so prevalent.

Another component is if for instance you lean towards contemporary /modern but you get some lucrative work that is rustic/country. If your not flush with work or just getting started you can wind up building quality stuff that you just don't care much for.

[Moses Yoder]

Its definitely difficult. Its my opinion you have to have a firm eye on business and can in no way get caught in the romance of what "you" want to make or what "you" like.

I think makers of anything who are successful, other than a very rare few, will tell you that they make what sells and wait/hope for the rare opportunities to make work you really like.

Isn't what we like our own choice? I love my job. There are a few aspects of it I don't like, but mostly I love it. I believe that is because I choose to. I could also choose to hate it.

I have made my living as a woodworker since 1986. If you really love money, do something besides woodworking for a living. Learn how to hack credit card numbers or play the lotto. I have supported my wife and both children by myself most of that time, my wife worked part time the last few years and just got promoted to full time as a bank teller. I probably averaged around $25,000 per year. We have always had everything we needed, we eat good and healthy, and I have had time to spend with my family and also to pursue some hobbies.

[Mark Bolton]

Isn't what we like our own choice? I love my job. There are a few aspects of it I don't like, but mostly I love it. I believe that is because I choose to. I could also choose to hate it.

I have made my living as a woodworker since 1986. If you really love money, do something besides woodworking for a living. Learn how to hack credit card numbers or play the lotto. I have supported my wife and both children by myself most of that time, my wife worked part time the last few years and just got promoted to full time as a bank teller. I probably averaged around $25,000 per year. We have always had everything we needed, we eat good and healthy, and I have had time to spend with my family and also to pursue some hobbies.

I can agree to an extent and I've read your perspective on perceptions vs reality/life is what you make it before ;-)

Its unfortunately not all that widely adopted in my experience LOL.

I have lived (and still do for the most part) a very modest life though perhaps not as modest as 25k/year especially with children (which I don't have). A humble and modest existence is great but it doesn't do much for retirement, investment in insurance, college funds, business planning and growth (even modest), and so on, in my opinion.

I agree though, life is what you make it.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Just because being a custom cabinetmaker is a sort of low hanging fruit doesn't mean it's the right business for you. It's not for me, even though I do it. There's a lot of budget stuff with middle class, even affluent customers... and it's competitive in affluent areas. I do it just to support my development process as a furniture maker set up for proprietary (curved and technical) designs and with expertise appropriate to executing designs for designers who have clients with serious money.

I sincerely recommend everybody interested in selling work to affluent people read "No B.S. Marketing To The Affluent" by Dan Kennedy.

[Albert Lee]

I start out with making $8k a year spending 4 hours a week, now I am doing it 12 hours a week but earning $30k from last year.

This is how I find it, there is woodworking and there is business, some craftman will spend hours and hours hand craft an item for sale at $100, because this is good workmanship. for a business, they probably employee someone carry out the hand crafting and spend their time looking for the sales/marketing. I am on the edge of employee someone to carry out the laborious work and I will be out there updating the design and looking for the "business", connecting people and all.

[Yonak Hawkins]

I have worked solely in my woodshop for a living for 13 years. I never go out of the shop for my work unless it's the rare delivery, when I simply drop the stuff off. No installations or set-ups, etc. I have no commute and I set my own hours.

In order to facilitate these good aspects of my occupation, there is a significant downside : I don't make the things I want to make. I must do what I get orders to do. I make consumer items which are sold by others. It's steady work. In fact, more than I can handle most of the time.

..And then, there's my hobby time when I get to make the things I want to make. That part doesn't make me money but it does allow me to exercise my craving for design and satisfaction when I get to give it to its intended recipient.

[Michael Yadfar]

These are my favorite answers to that question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9hIXiM-yrY

Sorry if I seem negative, but it's really hard to work in this field and not be jaded.

Just got around to watch these and I loved them. First one shows my logic on why I don't plan to be a cabinet maker for a living, why I'll stick to what I do now. It's so true. Second one made me laugh because this is the average consumer, I liked the reference on how she wanted to "go green" with mahogany an imported material, while she also lives in a 5,600 sq ft house. Highlights the issues of our society haha

I created this thread to more see out of curiosity how people in this custom woodworking field do. I know a guy who does alright doing custom basement remodels and that kind of work, but that falls more in the line of carpentry, because he will actually buy cheap cabinets from Home Depot for his remodel rather then build them unless the customer wants something custom. Even then he may use venered partical board, because the "average consumer" can't even tell the difference let alone the reason for better materials, as long as it's "pretty looking". It's kind of like how you can probably get a car from the junk yard, freshly paint it, and find someone to buy it.

Personally, I think I may just build little projects as something on the side, just as some return on my hobby. A produce store told me that they would buy bird houses from me to sell, nothing elaborate, just something I can mass produce. It won't make me a living obviously because they probably won't be a hot sell and I might make $5-10 profit on each house, but it's easy and a bit extra money in the pockets. I'm sure I can easily market something like cutting boards too, and maybe build an occasional table, which can probably make me a few bucks on the side

[Ellen Benkin]

When people ask me if I make items for sale my response is that it wouldn't be fun for me if it was a job. If I do make something for a friend, I charge for the materials and my labor is free. People are often shocked at the cost of wood anyway. Another part of the deal is that it takes as long as it takes and I won't work on a deadline. I'm retired and my time is my own. If I want to work in the shop, I do that. If I want to go to a movie, I do that.

[Loren Woirhaye]

The above comment raises another issue.

If you want people to pay good money for your work, one way to get it into a class by itself is to make it so good a prospective buyer cannot realistically ask a friend or a relative to make it for less. Put technical challenges in there hobby woodworkers will not want to take on. Cutting board and craft sellers complain about people taking cell-phone pictures and saying "I'll have my dad make that for me". Dad may also be uninterested in taking on the logistics and lifting of doing a substantial cabinet job, but again, there's always guys out there willing to do those jobs pretty darn cheap... skimping on quality or refinement in some ways generally.

[Peter Quinn]

I work under a company umbrella in a small well established cabinetry and millwork shop. I briefly set about to do the solo shop routine but retreated to employee status when the economy went south. My kids need to eat more than I need to dream about being my own boss or building any monuments to my craftsmanship. Dealing with even upper middle class income clients can challenging, the videos Johnny posted are so true it hurts me to laugh at them. Can't recall how many times I've had that reality check conversation. I'm frank verging on rude at this point. Forget what you think you want. How much will you have to spend. Want cabinets from crate and barrel....to buy them there. Want an ikea kitchen, go get one. I make it clear to anyone foolish enough to believe otherwise that my services will cost them at least 2X-3x the next best price from a stock option, don't want to belabor any misunderstandings about costs. And the attitude that cabinet makers are dirty shlubs while architects and designers are professional to be well paid and respected....been there too. Some architects are great, others not so much, have seen too many half baked designs from designers and architects to not be skeptical. We are wood professionals, your average architect knows more about French drainage systems and roof loads than cabinetry, why they try to pretend otherwise is beyond me. But we often work for them and they can have big egos, so tread lightly. Want to do this for a living, loose any illusions first of romantic notions.

[Brian Holcombe]

I work under a company umbrella in a small well established cabinetry and millwork shop. I briefly set about to do the solo shop routine but retreated to employee status when the economy went south. My kids need to eat more than I need to dream about being my own boss or building any monuments to my craftsmanship. Dealing with even upper middle class income clients can challenging, the videos Johnny posted are so true it hurts me to laugh at them. Can't recall how many times I've had that reality check conversation. I'm frank verging on rude at this point. Forget what you think you want. How much will you have to spend. Want cabinets from crate and barrel....to buy them there. Want an ikea kitchen, go get one. I make it clear to anyone foolish enough to believe otherwise that my services will cost them at least 2X-3x the next best price from a stock option, don't want to belabor any misunderstandings about costs. And the attitude that cabinet makers are dirty shlubs while architects and designers are professional to be well paid and respected....been there too. Some architects are great, others not so much, have seen too many half baked designs from designers and architects to not be skeptical. We are wood professionals, your average architect knows more about French drainage systems and roof loads than cabinetry, why they try to pretend otherwise is beyond me. But we often work for them and they can have big egos, so tread lightly. Want to do this for a living, loose any illusions first of romantic notions.

I think people often forget that. For instance, architect Le Corbusier hired Joseph Savina to collaborate with on projects. Savina had won the Meilleurs Ouvriers de France.

[Andrew Joiner]

I was a pro for 25 years. I loved public school shop classes as kid. I attended a vocational school cabinetmaking class but dropped out when I got a job in large woodworking shop. I learned a little in schools and more working for other shops. I learned the most when I had my own shop. The biggest lesson was build what is in demand,fast. Deliver the quality promised. Building to the quality promised is often not the best quality in my opinion,but getting paid comes first.
I was able to make a good living by doing all kinds of low class work. Tons of particle board store fixtures covered with plastic laminate left my shop. I loved getting paid well for low prestige jobs. Sometimes I'd get a job that was fine furniture but per hour it was often less profitable.

I had learned many tricks to keep customers happy. Often I would quote 2 prices. Production grade (to match mass produced ) and furniture quality grade. 90% of residential consumers chose production grade after looking at samples. 50% of my office furniture consumers went with furniture grade and paid the up-charge. Ultimately I chose to market mostly to the office furniture trade.

I agree passion for the craft is important. Passion for a profit is WAY more important if you want to keep a business going.

[Mark Bolton]

I was a pro for 25 years. I loved public school shop classes as kid. I attended a vocational school cabinetmaking class but dropped out when I got a job in large woodworking shop. I learned a little in schools and more working for other shops. I learned the most when I had my own shop. The biggest lesson was build what is in demand,fast. Deliver the quality promised. Building to the quality promised is often not the best quality in my opinion,but getting paid comes first.
I was able to make a good living by doing all kinds of low class work. Tons of particle board store fixtures covered with plastic laminate left my shop. I loved getting paid well for low prestige jobs. Sometimes I'd get a job that was fine furniture but per hour it was often less profitable.

I had learned many tricks to keep customers happy. Often I would quote 2 prices. Production grade (to match mass produced ) and furniture quality grade. 90% of residential consumers chose production grade after looking at samples. 50% of my office furniture consumers went with furniture grade and paid the up-charge. Ultimately I chose to market mostly to the office furniture trade.

I agree passion for the craft is important. Passion for a profit is WAY more important if you want to keep a business going.



Andrew, do you think the reason why most of the office furniture clients went with the up charge is because it wasn't their money? (Assuming)

It seems to me that when others are spending against a company budget or even if its their own project but the money is financed, they will go with the upgrade.

The "after seeing samples" part makes me think your production grade met or exceeded most available options with the retail market.

[Michael Yadfar]

I was a pro for 25 years. I loved public school shop classes as kid. I attended a vocational school cabinetmaking class




Same here, I loved shop class, and took it all four years of high school. I started taking it seriously sophomore year, and was easily the top in the class junior and senior year. We learned all about everything from fine woodworking (jointery, finishing, etc) to residential construction. The teacher liked me and highly suggested a woodworking program at a vocational school when I said I have interest in the field. I considered it , but ultimately made the decision to attend a horticultural program and keep woodworking a hobby...

[Andrew Joiner]

Andrew, do you think the reason why most of the office furniture clients went with the up charge is because it wasn't their money? (Assuming)

It seems to me that when others are spending against a company budget or even if its their own project but the money is financed, they will go with the upgrade.

The "after seeing samples" part makes me think your production grade met or exceeded most available options with the retail market.

Mark, Maybe partly because it wasn't their own money. I think the big reason was that production office furniture was expensive and had long wait times. We could often beat the price and delivery times.
Yes, my production grade met or exceeded most available options in the retail market, but to be honest many consumers look at price first and details second. Another good thing about giving the customer 2 choices is many complaints could be handled by saying"remember, you didn't choose furniture quality".

[Michael Yadfar]

I feel another benefit of your two price deal is people may feel like they're getting a "deal" with the cheaper price, even though your profit margin is probably the same

[Larry Edgerton]

I work under a company umbrella in a small well established cabinetry and millwork shop. I briefly set about to do the solo shop routine but retreated to employee status when the economy went south. My kids need to eat more than I need to dream about being my own boss or building any monuments to my craftsmanship. Dealing with even upper middle class income clients can challenging, the videos Johnny posted are so true it hurts me to laugh at them. Can't recall how many times I've had that reality check conversation. I'm frank verging on rude at this point. Forget what you think you want. How much will you have to spend. Want cabinets from crate and barrel....to buy them there. Want an ikea kitchen, go get one. I make it clear to anyone foolish enough to believe otherwise that my services will cost them at least 2X-3x the next best price from a stock option, don't want to belabor any misunderstandings about costs. And the attitude that cabinet makers are dirty shlubs while architects and designers are professional to be well paid and respected....been there too. Some architects are great, others not so much, have seen too many half baked designs from designers and architects to not be skeptical. We are wood professionals, your average architect knows more about French drainage systems and roof loads than cabinetry, why they try to pretend otherwise is beyond me. But we often work for them and they can have big egos, so tread lightly. Want to do this for a living, loose any illusions first of romantic notions.

What he said......

I have had my own business for many years, tried to go just shop work, went back to building houses because, well, I like to eat. When times were better about 50% of the work was stuff I wanted to do. Now that the economy here in Michigan [rural] is is the tank, still, about 5% of the work I do is something I want to do, and those jobs I generally do too cheap just so I can do something that is challenging.

Today, I was sanding a drywall ceiling. So much for the grand illusion.........

Larry

[Ryan Mooney]

I think the big reason was that production office furniture was expensive and had long wait times.

Still is and does. I've recently seen simple cubicles run close to $10k or more (price out stuff from steel case if you want heart palpitations). The main problem is that you're usually fighting against a "company standard' for companies of any size and smaller companies often end up buying used (the prize curve on used is a lot better). That still leaves lots of room for executive desks and conference or boardroom tables and similar things to that (and out of the cube farm into the "professional' office area you have folks who will pay well to make an impression on clients).

[James Baker SD]

All through my career I was a hobbyist woodworker and made some pretty good stuff and gradually acquired a pretty nice garage shop. Then the layoff came and I thought "who needs this, I will become a pro woodworker". Two things I learned quickly.
1. middle class customers are cheap. I cannot count the number of times when offering a price estimate on a piece that I heard, "its basically only a box, how hard can that be to make?"
2. to get the clients with deep pockets, skill alone doesn't do it. You need connections and a reputation and I was old enough that there was not time to acquire both.
After two years I ended up accepting an offer to return to my old field. It paid the bills and I enjoyed my hobby woodworking again, making high quality stuff for our house with no compromises. I also came away with a great deal of respect for those guys who do make a successful career in woodworking. They are doing something I failed at.

James

[Dominique Meuris]

To be honest it isn't simple to do woodworking for a living.
And in my opinion there are only 2 way's to succeed.

1 is by having a shop with high end furniture and cabinets. This is what we are doing in Belgium. we offer top of the line furniture made custom to the wishes of the customer.
The only problem with this is when you are runing a factory, it's taking a longer timer and a lot more effort + money then when you are making serie furniture.
We also often have customer's who go elsewhere because they think we are to expensive, but the thing it most of the people are willing to pay a like 10-15% more then for a seriepiece because they can notice the quality difference. Also the reason why we can offer it only 10-15% more expensive, is because we produce it ourself.
other shops have to buy it from a wholesaler, this wholesaler is buying it from a factory. so there are more people turning a profit on it.
The only big problem is that producing of it, it takes a shitload of money. because you have to preinvest in timber and other materials, ...

Another way to succeed in woodworking is to start a small carpenter bussiness, and offer custom made kitchens, build-in wardrobes, ... to customers.
mostly the big company's only work with standard sizes, and this is why there still is an open market for this.
Also dare to be different then other company's, offer them different materials. but al the time try to keep the price as low as possible.

offering 2 prices like Andrew is saying is a good idea, offer the customer's a price like standard cabinetry is doing it. and offer a price with a higher quality.
my experience tell's me that if the difference isn't to big, customer's are often leaning to the more expensive option.

[Michael Yadfar]

Living near Lancaster county, what people here like is "amish made" furniture. I sort of feel like it's a scam though. First of all, if they're truely amish they wouldn't be using power tools, and none of this stuff appears to be made with hand tools. The "Amish made" stuff also typically possesses the quality of regular furniture, I see this stuff built with low quality materials as well. My parents showed me their new "amish made" coffee table, and I said that their table top is plywood with a thin layer of venere on top and one the sides. Then they said "we paid a lot of money for this and the amish made it, so it can't be", I just shaked my head. The shed on my property is "Amish made" and isn't even square, and they cut corners in every spot they could. I think people put an image in their head of the furniture being build with hand saws and hand planes in a barn, while majority of it is likely being built in large modern wood shops to the same standards as everything else. Maybe if I grew a beard and said I was amish I can make a living

[Max Neu]

I have been self employed since 1999,after working for a custom shop for a few years.I can tell you,if you want to make it,it's all about getting good contacts.Try to hook up with designers and quality builders,they will lead you to the people with money.My advise is not to try and contact them until you are ready,make a good presentation,you only get 1 first impression,wait until you have some good samples,pictures of your work,references etc.The 1 thing I have learned over the years when working with designers and customers,is stop thinking like a woodworker,and think like a designer.Designers don't care about hand cut dovetails,mortise and tenons etc.They want the piece to compliment everything else around the piece,they want the proportions right,the finish a certain way,etc. Don't focus on things like "wow,that's a beutiful piece of wood,where should I put it ?",or "these dovetails are super tight and perfectly made".You are wasting time thinking like that,because they don't care,they just want it to look good.I am not saying you should do low quality work,because you won't be able to get into the high end market,but you need to pick your battles.Also,you have to be creative and offer things other guy's in your area are not,even if you don't sell them those unique pieces you come up with,you can still WOW them by showing them what you are capable of.

[Yonak Hawkins]

To be honest it isn't simple to do woodworking for a living.
And in my opinion there are only 2 way's to succeed.


A third way, that is seldom represented, is being a manufacturer for another concern. The itch for custom designing is rarely in the product but it's in the methods of production and is quite satisfying.

If you look around at things made of wood, all of it must be made and some of it is made in small shops by entrepreneurs. If I were looking for a new product line, I would identify a set of products that appeals to me, find out who distributes it, and strike up a conversation with them. Most distributors are interested in finding a maker who complements their enterprise, either by your close proximity, better quality, reliability, flexibility and, possibly, even price.

[Tom M King]

The best way to make a living in woodworking is to get other people to pay you to talk about it.

[J.R. Rutter]

The most important requirement for making a good living in woodworking is business sense, including marketing and accounting. Secondary to that is the ability to produce what your customers are willing to pay for. Be organized and disciplined. Avoid debt. Drive costs down. Find the profitable niches. Take great care of customers. Get legal advice early on if contracts will be involved. Network with other business owners (not just woodworking).

[Loren Woirhaye]

If you're into a sort of crafty approach and don't mind doing a lot of sanding, things like nut trays can be sold directly through Amazon. I read an article recently on a shop that was doing that and doing alright. They did a lot of excavating with routers and had relatively mundane equipment except for Butfering wide belt sander. Certainly a production shop approach and a far cry from being known for joinery, but they were turning a profit. Amazon's markup isn't nearly what a brick and mortar retailer does, so in effect if your product can be shipped and hits good price points you can act as your own retailer. It's worth noting outfits like Thos Moser who treat the marketing and selling almost as a separate business and mark up the product just like a 3rd party retailer would. They have showrooms but the backbone of the sales machine was exquisitely printed direct mail catalogs. I'm sure they're saving a bundle now on printing and postage with the internet.

[Chris Padilla]

I took a class from Paul Schurch at David Marks' studio in Santa Rosa, CA last March regarding inlay and marquetry. David is a real down to earth fella but he told me that woodworking for a living is a tough tough thing to do. Even with his commercial success at Woodworks, he still feels to this day he got pretty ripped off by the network and didn't make much money and worked 80 hours/week while doing the show. He prays his kids steer clear from woodworking as a living! :)

[Erik Loza]

I suspect Michael Y. is meaning "one man operation" with the question about being able to do this for a living.

Here is my observation as the guy who is selling machinery to folks like that: Cabinetry? No problem to make a living. Cabinetry and "some" furniture pieces here and there? Still viable. "Just furniture"?... Based on my 10+ years and hundreds of customers, I can count the actual owners who make a living doing exclusively furniture on less than one hand.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Andrew Joiner]

The most important requirement for making a good living in woodworking is business sense, including marketing and accounting. Secondary to that is the ability to produce what your customers are willing to pay for. Be organized and disciplined. Avoid debt. Drive costs down. Find the profitable niches. Take great care of customers. Get legal advice early on if contracts will be involved. Network with other business owners (not just woodworking).
I totally agree with J.R. I got my first business experience at age 8 in 1959. I built a shoeshine kit and went around to barbershops and asked if I could shine shoes at their shops. 5 or 6 turned me down,until I found one that let me. Dealing with real customers and performing a service was a valuable learning experience. I really believe it helped me when I got into the woodworking business.

[Frank Drew]

Lots of sound advice and real world experiences offered here; I agree especially with everything that Dominique and Max said because their advice closely matched my own learning process in the business.

Just for clarification, the Amish I've come across use machinery, just not connected to the electric grid; the young Amish carpenter who bought my shaper planned to convert it to hydraulic, which in turn would be powered by a gas engine; that was a common practice. (He wanted me to drop my price to compensate him for the retrofit to hydraulic; I told him that as much as I felt his pain, that wasn't my problem. His dad laughed and said, "Jake, that ain't his problem!")

[Michael Yadfar]

Just for clarification, the Amish I've come across use machinery, just not connected to the electric grid; the young Amish carpenter who bought my shaper planned to convert it to hydraulic, which in turn would be powered by a gas engine; that was a common practice. (He wanted me to drop my price to compensate him for the retrofit to hydraulic; I told him that as much as I felt his pain, that wasn't my problem. His dad laughed and said, "Jake, that ain't his problem!")

Yea I actually looked that up last night and never realized til now that the amish are allowed to use generators. I actually had an Amish guy buy a dirtbike off me to give to a guy he does business with in the diesel generator business, and even though he hired a guy to drive him to my house, I was wondering why an Amish guy did business with diesel generators, but now I know. I was also reading that they (the Lancaster ones) are actually being forced away from farming to these industries due to the commercialization of Lancaster County. It's kind of sad that our Western society comes in and changes theirs, but that's a whole different subject. I still can't quite say that the Amish made furniture lives up to the hype, like I said, people think that "Amish made" always means better, but a lot of stuff I see is no different than non Amish made. With that said though, I have seen some really high quality Amish stuff, I'm not trying to bash them, I just feel like the label is over judged.

[Brian W Smith]

Slight thread tangent......a little.

WRT generators....and to another degree,the original topic;It's not just Amish runnin generators.A buddy of mine who lives a little off grid,has a stable of 100 y.o.,4 head moulding machines.There's probably a half dz,.....having no 3 phase in his neck of the woods,he uses a rather nice diesel generator to run them.It's an interesting place.

He had the property,built the necessary building,and serves a very valuable service in a time when moulding shops are in decline.He is very specialized in this market,and does pretty good once you get past the initial? effort.Meaning,he can go in the shop,hit the lights,hit the remote on the big gen,and more than likely one of the machines is already setup for that profile?......run a cpl thousand feet and then go find something else to do to finish the day.

I guess?....one could examine where they "fit",or mesh in with folks(those who need "that" service/part),and then make a concentrated effort to set the bar,WRT tooling/skillsets.....to precisely hit that mark.Your success being how well you do hit the mark.Bigger isn't always better.Think,"the right size"..........