Toe-kick size/dimensions?

[Chris Padilla]

What do folks here typically like to use for toe-kick dimensions in their cabinets?

A cursory Google search tells me 3.5" x 3.5" is about right.

[George Bokros]

What I use and what I believe is common around here is 3" deep 4" high.

[Rick Potter]

Like you, I have been told that 3 1/2 square is about right. That's what Sommerfeld recommends in his videos.

Rick P

[Peter Quinn]

What I use and what I believe is common around here is 3" deep 4" high.

This is standard in my area, 3X4 is burned in my brain.

[Paul Girouard]

3" deep x 4" height is "standard" .

There are times where aligning the top of the toe space with the top of the base looks very nice.

There are other times where a flush or slightly projected base wrapped around a cabinet looks nice, the non- kitchen side and ends of a island or peninsular cabinet can look nice done that way.

But standard old T/S height is what you want 3 x4 ish is about right.

[Todd Burch]

Cutting a bunch of cabinets right now. 3" deep, 4" high, but I let the face frame hang down about 1/2" into that space.

Todd

[Dave Zellers]

Going to go against the grain here. Toe kicks are usually overdone. I count the counter overhang in my horizontal depth. So 2" on the cab plus 1 1/2" of the counter gives me 3 1/2" of toe space for the user. Plenty.

Then 3" vertically is more than enough.

[Jerry Miner]

I use the 3" deep x 4" high standard (but sometimes cheat the 3 to 2 1/2)---you'll find that appliances like dishwashers, icemakers, refrigerators,... use the 4" height standard. Nice when the cabinets line up with the appliances.

[Mark Bolton]

The reason the vertical dimension is moving from 4" down to three 3" is because cabs have always been installed on the subfloor and finish flooring is laid to the cabinet. With the HGTV trend to set cabs on top of the finished floor the extra height isn't needed.

[John A langley]

3 inches deep 4 inches tall the stove and the dishwasher work best with 4 inches tall at the Wall I run the stile to the floor that takes care of the base

[scott vroom]

One common mistake is forgetting to allow for the height of flooring that may be installed after the cabs are in place.

[Chris Padilla]

One common mistake is forgetting to allow for the height of flooring that may be installed after the cabs are in place.

Exactly! I need to add around 5/8 - 3/4" to my toe kick height to compensate for the tile + Ditra Heat membrane since I'm installing the cabinets BEFORE the tile goes down in our master bathroom.

I'm going with 3.5" all around. I do have one cabinet in the master bathroom that will not have a toe-kick so I need to widen the face frame rail at the floor so it matches the rest of the cabinet's face frame dimensions.

[Chris Padilla]

Going to go against the grain here. Toe kicks are usually overdone. I count the counter overhang in my horizontal depth. So 2" on the cab plus 1 1/2" of the counter gives me 3 1/2" of toe space for the user. Plenty.

Then 3" vertically is more than enough.

Dave, that is an interesting point about he counter overhang...hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense.

[Mike Cutler]

Going to go against the grain here. Toe kicks are usually overdone. I count the counter overhang in my horizontal depth. So 2" on the cab plus 1 1/2" of the counter gives me 3 1/2" of toe space for the user. Plenty.

Then 3" vertically is more than enough.

Chris

I pretty much agree with Dave that toe kicks are overdone. Visually I find the "standard" unappealing. Too "cratish" looking.
When I built our kitchen cabinets, they are Green and Green style, designed around a granite top, that overhangs the cabinet face by 2 1/2", the standard toe kick dimension just didn't work . When I fab'd up the mockup, the "standard" toe kick space made everything look like it was sitting on a pallet,and overhanging the edge. It was ugly.
I ended up with toe kicks that are 3" high, but have a deeper depth, because I think seeing the face of a toe kick board is kind of unsightly. The ends of the cabinets meet the floor.



One question though?
Why not just elevate the floors under the cabinets 3/4" with a layer of subfloor under them to accommodate the increased tile height?
Ditra is nice stuff. I used it in our tile jobs too. If you haven't used it before, you're really going to like it. Be sure to burn it in, prior to setting your tile. (A tip I picked up from the John Bridges Tiling forum.)

[scott vroom]

You might also keep in mind that overlay doors/drawers will add depth to the toekick space. My toekicks are 3.5" deep from the drawer face.

[Bill Orbine]

The reason the vertical dimension is moving from 4" down to three 3" is because cabs have always been installed on the subfloor and finish flooring is laid to the cabinet. With the HGTV trend to set cabs on top of the finished floor the extra height isn't needed.

Yes, but not always down to 3".. Sometimes it can be 3 1/2" or anywhere less than the 4" planned height. Especially in kitchens. Sometimes in older kitchens, new flooring is installed around the existing cabinets. As others say, most of the appliances use the 3" deep 4" high toe kick and is pretty much the standard.... doesn't mean you HAVE to follow it.

[Shawn Pixley]

In my experience 4" high is standard in commercial work. 4" aligns with rubber base and therefore a consistant lineis carried around the room. Other than sheet vinyl, VCT or carpet, cabinets are installed over the floor finish material (wood, stone, or tile).

[Chris Padilla]

Chris

I pretty much agree with Dave that toe kicks are overdone. Visually I find the "standard" unappealing. Too "cratish" looking.
When I built our kitchen cabinets, they are Green and Green style, designed around a granite top, that overhangs the cabinet face by 2 1/2", the standard toe kick dimension just didn't work . When I fab'd up the mockup, the "standard" toe kick space made everything look like it was sitting on a pallet,and overhanging the edge. It was ugly.
I ended up with toe kicks that are 3" high, but have a deeper depth, because I think seeing the face of a toe kick board is kind of unsightly. The ends of the cabinets meet the floor.



One question though?
Why not just elevate the floors under the cabinets 3/4" with a layer of subfloor under them to accommodate the increased tile height?
Ditra is nice stuff. I used it in our tile jobs too. If you haven't used it before, you're really going to like it. Be sure to burn it in, prior to setting your tile. (A tip I picked up from the John Bridges Tiling forum.)

I could do that but I really don't know exactly what the height of the finished floor will be. The Ditra Heat is claimed to be 1/4" and the tile is claimed to be 10 mm (3/8"+) and then you add in some mortar and you end up with what exactly? :) I figured it'll be somewhere around 11/16". It seems less risky to just mount the cabinets to the floor and then butt the tile up to the toe kick board & bottom rail. I may have a finishing strip of something in there like the Dilex that would actually meet the walls/wood for movement joints. SWMBO doesn't want any tile baseboard or I could tailor the toe kick height to meet that.

What exactly is "burning in" the Ditra mean? From what I understand, you trowel the modified thinset (for the ditra to plywood connection) with the flat edge into the floor plywood and then comb it with the notched side. This will be my first use of all the Schluter products. I'm slowly gathering up the parts I need. I'm getting stuff cheaper on eBay and Craigslist as I pick up people's extras. I'm putting in the sloping shower pan (55" x 55") with the long drain at one end. I just got a Schluter bench for about half of eBay because it was slightly damaged. Since I plan to cut it down on my bandsaw, it worked out great for me! Actually, I have to cut it on an angle to match the sloping shower tray anyway.

[Chris Padilla]

You might also keep in mind that overlay doors/drawers will add depth to the toekick space. My toekicks are 3.5" deep from the drawer face.

Yep, that is figured in as well...I didn't miss THAT one! :)

[Mike Cutler]

Chris

The process of "burning in", as I was instructed from the tiling forum, is essentially this;

After the Ditra is put down on the substrate material the exposed surface looks like a giant orange plastic waffle iron. You then take the thin set that will be used with your tile and using the flat side and edge of the trowel you fill the "waffles in, by forcing thinset into them, and leave a very, thin layer of thinset on the entire surface to level if necessary. Once the whole floor is done, you start laying tile. Some guys let it sit overnight, some don't prior to laying tile.
Basically you're ensuring that the waffles are full of thinset and you get maximum adhesion of surface area. Thinset sticks very well to thin set. My bathroom was small, 5'x 10' so I didn't use a leveling system. If you have a big area you might want to look at the Tuscan leveling system to avoid any "lippage".

[Dave Zellers]

I ended up with toe kicks that are 3" high, but have a deeper depth, because I think seeing the face of a toe kick board is kind of unsightly.
I have taken to using black matte formica for toe kicks for this reason. I fit it between the finished edges of the end panels. It disappears into the shadow of the toe kick.

Also, this is absolutely one of those classic situations where we as the cabinet makers, obsess over a minor detail which no one, even ourselves after the project is completely done, ever notices again.

Lets hear from all the cabinetmakers who have ever heard anyone say, "WOW, beautiful cabinets, but I'm sorry, I just don't like that toe kick". :)

That's not to say we shouldn't obsess over these things, because for me at least, that's part of the fun.

Plus I believe, some day, whether I'm around or not, someone is going to say, "Those black toe kicks are a nice touch".

And if no one does, who cares. I did it for me.

[fRED mCnEILL]

Instead of toe kicks in my kitchen I put drawers down there. There are recessed like toe licks but the finish is the same as the cabinets.Wife loves them.

[Dave Zellers]

Instead of toe kicks in my kitchen I put drawers down there. There are recessed like toe licks but the finish is the same as the cabinets.Wife loves them.
I like that. We had a client who insisted the drawers go right down to the floor so we extended the counter by 3" to allow for toes.

[fRED mCnEILL]

I also did 30 inch counters. Increases the work space by 25% and allowed me to put in a knive rack where ther knives hang down behind the drawers.

[Chris Padilla]

I have taken to using black matte formica for toe kicks for this reason. I fit it between the finished edges of the end panels. It disappears into the shadow of the toe kick.

Also, this is absolutely one of those classic situations where we as the cabinet makers, obsess over a minor detail which no one, even ourselves after the project is completely done, ever notices again.

Lets hear from all the cabinetmakers who have ever heard anyone say, "WOW, beautiful cabinets, but I'm sorry, I just don't like that toe kick". :)
...

Interesting idea, Dave. These maple bathroom cabinets are to be stained a dark walnut brown so the toe-kick will be dark as well. I'm further kicking around putting a drawer in that space. My wife likes to draw and we struggle with storing her large artist pads. Right now they are under the bed but the cat like to mess with them.