Working with Epoxy or Plastic Resin Adhesives

[John Stevens]

All this talk about "creep" on the other thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21822) has me interested in using epoxy or plastic resin instead of white or yellow glues. Being fairly new at this, I have a stupid question about how to apply them to mortises and biscuit slots.

I've used acid brushes, toothpicks, bamboo skewers, q-tips and "micro brushes," but for applying glues to mortises and biscuit slots, I find it really convenient to use a squeeze bottle or this applicator set--

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=20007&cat=1,110,42967

Can applicators like that be used with epoxy or plastic resin adhesives, too? Maybe the better question is whether they can be "re-used" repeatedly for epoxy or plastic resin?

Or are applicator bottles like that for weenies, and real woodworkers have other ways of putting the glue where it belongs? Thanks in advance for your help.

[Chris Padilla]

John,

David Marks of DIY's Woodworks squeezes his plastic resin out of plastic bottles all the time and spreads it with acid brushes usually.

[Frank Hagan]

Plastic Resin Glue (Weldwood) can be rinsed out with plain water, but epoxy resin is a bit more difficult. You have to use either acetone, the "real" solvent that thins and removes epoxy before it hardens, or ... in the early stages before it starts to harden ... white vinegar. The white vinegar stops the resin from kicking off, so you still have to rinse well and wipe off the residual. You should be wearing latex or vinyl gloves when working with epoxy, as some people develop sensitivity to the resin that can be quite dramatic (red, blotchy hive-like spots all over their face and hands and enough itching to drive them nearly nuts).

I think all that argues against putting epoxy resin in a squeeze bottle with a nozzle, but I'm sure there are those that do it. I'm just not sure how easy it would be to clean. I have used a small hypodermic without the needle to draw up a bit of epoxy and deposit it in a small area, then I just actuate the hypodermic in white vinegar, dissassemble and wipe clean. So it might not be too much trouble. But its definately an extra few steps over PVA glue!

[Alan Turner]

John
An acid brush works well, as does a 50 cent palstic wallpaper seam roller for coating evenly an edge joint. If you wash them out in water just after use, you can reuse them for a long while.
BTW, I have some Unibond 800 still in the beer cooler from late 2002, and it is still just fine. I think it is a lot friendlier than epoxy, unless you are building Noah's ark.

[Martin Shupe]

Not to sidetrack, but I would like to see recommendations on what kind of glue to use for gluing up panels.

Specific brands encouraged.

I have been using PVA glue, but all this talk of creep has me a little worried, too.

I use Old Brown Glue for all my joints, just wondering about the panels.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/glues.htm

Jeff Jewitt has a nice little write-up (Mr. Smalser borrowed some of it in his thread Is your glue repairable?) but it needs updated with poly glues. Anyone "in" with Jeff should request an update from him.

Plastic resin sounds nice...wish it had a broader temperature range in which to cure....

[Cecil Arnold]

I have used WEST system in the past for filling worm holes in bowl blanks and found that WEST has plastic syrenges (sp?) that the epoxy will not stick to. It is a simple matter to "chip out" the epoxy after it sets. I have also found that a small flat piece of scrap works as a squeege to spread epoxy rather well.

I don't work for WESTn nor own stock, etc.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Not to sidetrack, but I would like to see recommendations on what kind of glue to use for gluing up panels.

Specific brands encouraged.

I have been using PVA glue, but all this talk of creep has me a little worried, too.

I use Old Brown Glue for all my joints, just wondering about the panels.

I've been using DAP Weldwood plastic resin for tabletops and panels for two or three years now. Very happy with it. What is 'Old Brown Glue'? Never heard of it...

[Martin Shupe]

I've been using DAP Weldwood plastic resin for tabletops and panels for two or three years now. Very happy with it. What is 'Old Brown Glue'? Never heard of it...

Old Brown Glue is hide glue in a bottle. Pricey, but I like it. Cleans up with water, is reversible, and you don't have to worry about it ruining your finish. I think it was mentioned in the latest issue of Popular Woodworker.

I'll try the DAP next time I glue up panels. Thanks for the info.

[larry merlau]

[QUOTE=Martin Shupe]Old Brown Glue is hide glue in a bottle.


hey martin, where is a good source for the brown glue and what issue had the review of it.

[James Carmichael]

I certainly can't add to the expertise here, but I noticed John's original post specifically referred to biscuit slots. Now, I've never used biscuits, I've been eyeing them lately as a solution to attaching a face frame, but from what I've read, don't biscuits need the moisture from in a PVA glue to expand like they're supposed to?

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

I certainly can't add to the expertise here, but I noticed John's original post specifically referred to biscuit slots. Now, I've never used biscuits, I've been eyeing them lately as a solution to attaching a face frame, but from what I've read, don't biscuits need the moisture from in a PVA glue to expand like they're supposed to?

So they say. The DAP plastic resin is mixed with water, so that works fine. I've heard that poly glues aren't supposed to be good with biscuits, but I've used it with no problems.

KC

[Michael Perata]

John,

David Marks of DIY's Woodworks squeezes his plastic resin out of plastic bottles all the time and spreads it with acid brushes usually.
Actually, he uses a glue roller or flat plastic spreader where he can to spread the plastic resin glue. Much faster, and then he throws the roller/spreader in a can of water he keeps outside and washes the rollers at the end of the day. ;)

[Bill Arnold]

I certainly can't add to the expertise here, but I noticed John's original post specifically referred to biscuit slots. Now, I've never used biscuits, I've been eyeing them lately as a solution to attaching a face frame, but from what I've read, don't biscuits need the moisture from in a PVA glue to expand like they're supposed to?James,
I think the answer to this depends on which camp you're in regarding the use of biscuits in the first place. I'm not trying to start any arguments here, just looking at both sides of the issue. On side is whether biscuits add strength to a joint; the other is that they should be considered an alignment tool only. Everyone has to decide what they believe based on their own processes.

In your case, attaching a face frame seems an excellent use for biscuits. Whether the glue expands them to tighten the fit is immaterial; they will hold the face frame in alignment while the glue dries. The same can be true for other types of joinery as well.

I used biscuits for years to align boards when gluing up panels. After hearing the issue about them 'telegraphing' through the joint after a period of time, I didn't use them on the past panels I made. The long grain to long grain orientation of an edge glue-up is where the strength lies; it's not the biscuit.

Regards,

[Chris Padilla]

I think it was Chris DeHut (of the woodworking at home DVD magazine) that showed how biscuits, due to the vast amount of glue (PVA) they use, do swell up the wood fibers around them and therefore can telegraph through the wood.

However, he said after the glue dried and the fibers had a chance to dry out, everything was fine.

I personally use biscuits as an alignment tool. Here is a tip when using them: be sure to separate them out into at least 3 piles: tight-fit, good-fit, loose-fit. Each will have their uses....

[Bill Arnold]

I think it was Chris DeHut (of the woodworking at home DVD magazine) that showed how biscuits, due to the vast amount of glue (PVA) they use, do swell up the wood fibers around them and therefore can telegraph through the wood.

However, he said after the glue dried and the fibers had a chance to dry out, everything was fine.

I personally use biscuits as an alignment tool. Here is a tip when using them: be sure to separate them out into at least 3 piles: tight-fit, good-fit, loose-fit. Each will have their uses....Good point, Chris.

Another thing I've heard (from Norm, I think) is that since the biscuits swell as they are designed, they cause a slight bulge. Then you sand the piece flat and finish it. In time, the biscuit dries completely causing a slight depression. So, if one waits a few days to allow the glue to cure, there shouldn't be a problem.