I've cornered the market on Washita's

[Tony Zaffuto]

My absentee bid package, that I won at the MJD Avoca auction arrived today and I'm pleased, to say the least. I bid on a group that included a MF Buck Rogers drill I wanted, and the condition is better than shown on the auction site, with my price under my bid cap.

The other group was for a Norton Multistone and a batch of other stones. My winning bid was quite a bit less than a new basic Multistone and this one again looks better than the auction pictures. The stones are a fine india and a couple of crytalon. The crystalon will be replaced. But what really put icing on the cake were the group of other stones: 4 stones in wooden carved boxes. 3 are washita's without a doubt. The final is a Norton Behr wooden case (factory made) with metal turning insert. One side is a soft arkansas and the other is a hard black arkansas. Both stones show little use. Also, I got nearly two dozen loose stones, are various types, both natural and manmade. All are oilstones. With this haul, I may quit buying stones for a bit. To get through playing with each of these will take me until next year~

[David Weaver]

When I got my bid updates last week, I got an update that I just missed....by a few bucks....winning....

a group with a multistone and a bunch of other stones :)

I noticed that soft hard combo box from norton, and those are always good stones, as well as the other washitas that were with it.

We must've been the only two people bidding on it.

I kind of figured I wasn't that disappointed to not win it because I have too many washitas and hard arks, and then I got another washita off of ebay this week, and have passed up several certain washitas that were in the $35 range, and nice full sized stones. The bright white unused lilywhites are still going for big bucks, but they always do - they are somewhat rare. The rest of the stuff is off, and nice stones with nifty boxes have been $15 to $45.

[Tony Zaffuto]

The Multistone unit itself, after wiping, looks excellent. There are some of the loose stones will need some cleaning to determine vintage, but quite a few are not man made!

The Multistone will have the crystalons replaced by non-Norton stones, hard Arkansas and probably a soft Arkansas unless I can scrape up an appropriate sized lily white!

[David Weaver]

Love the IM 313. I remember thinking it looked awkward and like it wouldn't work that well and then someone made the reference to me that they were going to get one and outfit it with dream stones at some point.

So I got the trans setup that thebestthings.com has, and I really like the unit, the medium crystolon and the fine india, but I wasn't thrilled about the most recent iteration of norton trans that was on it. It was not a particularly fine stone, and that was complicated by the fact that the light mineral oil in the unit is a bit thick.

So I sold the norton trans on ebay, and bought a dans second hard (not a true hard, black or trans, but the level below) to get a stone that had a little bite and would work through the mineral oil (otherwise one would need to keep a credit card close by to scrape the oil off of the trans stone before use with anything other than knives). The dans hard grade is very close to 2.5 specific gravity and just a bit more bite than the norton trans, but enough to make it ideal in the unit.

At any rate, after thinking it was a bit gimmicky, I really like it a ton. It's super. I would've loved to have the rest of those natural stones in that auction, but not as much as you love having them :) I'm glad they went to someone else who's absolutely nuts about novaculite and washita.

If you can find a no 1 washita or a lilywhite or anything pike or behr manning in that size, it'll be the first I've seen of it, but it'd make a nice stone for the unit.

[Tony Zaffuto]

One of the cased washita's has been cleaned & flattened. Size is about 1-1/2" X 7" and in a case hinge at one end. Had to use a stationary belt sander, but the ten minutes of electrons were sacrificed for many hours of jigless sharpening. Cleaned to a orangish/white color, and just something about speaks to me! Surface feels a little smoother than my other washita's, almost like the feel of a hard arkansas.

Could this be the one stone sharpening answer? Time will tell, after some vintage iron hits the surface. For anyone wanting to pick up a vintage washita, check the w_ _dnet classified section, as one is listed for sale @ $60.00. It is a Pike, but not a lily white.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, that one is in the S&S here, too. I saw it. Anything norton branded is easy to unload on ebay if you ever change your mind about it.

I had a nice pike mine washita delivered on thursday last week, and another interesting soft ark or washita (cleaning will tell) from ebay coming in an interesting case probably tomorrow. That makes about 15 vintage washita or soft stones (the bulk of those being washita) for me, and I have to stop!

Any of them, if allowed to break in without any additional lapping, will become a nice one-stone hone. Takes a while, though, couple of weeks of regular use, maybe. If they get to feeling too fine, I rub two together so they grade each other a little and free up just a tiny bit of stuff.

I've got one that's in a strop top box that will finish a razor. It's only a hair coarser than a translucent, but it has a virtue that makes a specific razor method work really well on it, and it will produce an edge as nice as a translucent and a lot faster and more easily. They are such an interesting stone, there is little else like them. I can't think of anything else that is able to cut as fast but leave as thin of a wire edge that can easily be stropped off to reveal a very nice uniform edge.

[Tony Zaffuto]

This one David, also has a strop top box. I have, maybe a half dozen stones in strop top boxes and (IIRC) every one has the rough edge up, though that may be from many decades of use.

Have you ever tested for specific gravity? I have yet to go that far, though I could do it easily at the lab in my plant. I prefer just to see the practical effects of the stone on the same blade or chisel, though with this latest one, I just may see want to see the results. Major issue with vintage stones is the years of oil that has soaked into the stone. Boiling may remove some surface contaminants, but leave enough to give a false report.

[David Weaver]

I've measured only two, but have a few clean and square stones that aren't loaded with oil.

The two that I've measured are the finer one that I just got (2.4), and the stone that Dan's calls washita, which was 2.0. I have a very clean woodworkers delight that has good enough geometry to just measure and calculate the SG without resorting to water displacement. Dan's washita stone are a very light weight soft that has a uniform texture, but it's not like the pike washitas. The dans stone has less bite and is a bit fragile, which is probably why they say it has limited availability (the corner broke off of mine in shipping - a fairly large bit of it). Interesting stone nonetheless, but not similar to pike.

I suspect that the pike mine washita (the one branded woodworker's delight) will be somewhere right between 2.0 and 2.4, but we'll find out. If the stone is dry and the surface is clean, I don't think the oil will skew the results too much - especially if you look at the sides of your stones and they are fairly clean.

I've measured a lot of the true hards, and they have all been 2.6-2.85 - different animal. The dans and norton stones are not the same density, but close. The dans are a little bit more dense, but feel much finer in use, and even after lapping just feel a little more like you'd expect a finisher to feel. The 2.85 SG stone that I have is a "black translucent" from naturalwhetstone (just a dark gray translucent), but I can't say it seems any finer in use than any other good finisher.

[David Weaver]

Tony - woodworker's delight, more uniform (bright white with no mottling) than my lilywhite or any other norton stone I've used, 2.05 specific gravity.

The stones I have dominated by mottling are definitely more dense, but that's probably the only one I have that's not seen a lot of oil and that is regularly shaped. It feels light to pick it up, too.

I sort of like the stones that have a little bit more mottling, despite the fact that they are a lower grade on the cosmetic scale than the lilywhites and woodworker's delights.

I did get another one in the mail today..ebay # below. I thought it might just be an inexpensive vintage soft, but it's a washita with a significant amount of mottling and a nice box. whoever was using it must've been sharpening something narrow on it - it's uniformly abraded into what's like a crease in the middle, but strangely the surface into that crease is very smooth on both sides.

291204613741

[Tony Zaffuto]

It's not high on my priority list, but I have a smaller lily white still in the box, very little use and a lesser grade washita, think tagged Garret Wade, that also has little or new use, that I may measure for specific gravity, just to see the range. The lesser grade stone is tagged washita, but has distinct veins (pinkish, IIRC) instead of mottling. I also have a Norton soft arkansas, also still in the box, with very little use, that I would also like to see where it falls in the range.

As far as mottling goes, I agree. The washita that has been my goto stone for at least the past five years, is an orangish, mottled stone. The long & narrow stone, with strop top, I got in the Avoca sale, is mottled (very tight mottles) and is simply a great stone, though this is after flattening and with a "newish" feel to it. I sharpened an early 70's era block plane blade last night, then a 1/2" Greenlee chisel and finally a 3/8" LN skew. The first two required flattening and I expected that at conclusion the stone would start feeling broken in, but it didn't. I was using the little vintage can of "Pike" oil that came from the Avoca haul and it is somewhat different than modern Norton oil - a little thicker than modern Norton, but not as thick as my normal Marvel Mystery Oil.

[David Weaver]

More density data...

I bought the washita that Christian Castillo had listed in the classifieds, labeled "norton washita", but without one of the higher grade marks. It's finer than most lilywhites, and has a few mineral flecks on it. It comes in at 2.20 specific gravity (thanks to Christian, it's nice and clean and the density is probably pretty accurate because it's sludge free).

I also have another stone with a trivial amount of oil on it coming, though I don't know if it's a pike washita type without looking at the bottom of it. It has a label of a stone that I don't have yet, so I couldn't resist if the price stayed right - and it did.

294697

I guess that means that the contest to win a contest that has no real winners is still on! (but I really have to stop buying these)

[Andrew Bell]

I'm sure if you ever clean out your stash of washitas, the addition of a David Weaver stamp of approval would have them all sold in a heartbeat (says he who can't locate any here in Australia)

[David Weaver]

I can't imagine they'll be easy to find in australia, they're in droves in the UK and in the US. The price that I consider reasonable for me for non-branded stones is about $50, which is about what it costs to ship something bigger than small flat rate box to australia - unfortunately. You guys have your share of stuff that's less common here, though - especially swedish stuff for some reason.

Hopefully I'll never have to sell them! As easy as it is to buy them at $20-$50 per (and buy some $20-$50 stones that turn out to not be washitas), it wouldn't be quite so easy to unload them except for the ones with norton labels. I don't have as many misses now when buying guess stones, and I can certainly tell what's pike mine origin stuff and what's not real washitas (and the ones that aren't really washitas, like the multicolored stones have their virtues to some extent if they're cheap and coarse and fast cutting).

[Noah Wagener]

Tony,

You wrote that one of the major issues with vintage Washitas and softs is that they are soaked in oil. Did you just mean for testing specific gravity or for usage? I have read that they should be soaked but maybe the person was confusing the prescription for Indias and Crysyolons with the naturals? When i get these stones i just use them if they are flat with more oil on top but it sounds like you boil everything out of them(does this soften them?). What is the general care of these stones? All mine have little pinholes (is that common and desired, seems to add to the speed) that fill up with black oil fast and would make cleaning a ful time job. Take this one for example:

296163
freshly lapped

296164
it turns to this almost immediately



Once it gets dirty like this, it stays like this. Should i be more meticulous in cleaning. I leave the oil on it when done and just add more if it gels at all.

And what about lapping these. I know Warren Mickley said he only has lapped his soft once in like 40 years. The one above was dished after a few months of occasional use. I try to create a convex stone working the ends more yet it was dished pretty bad. Do you guys know what that stone is? I assume since it does not yellow it is not a Washita? it is the fastest Arkansas i have and seems to give a workable edge.

How about this one?:

296171

It looks like stone Sean Hughto posted pics of that was confirmed a Washita but the seller on ebay (barnes from Uk) usually says they are Washitas if they are. This one has a real green tint to it . Nice stone.

[David Weaver]

You only need to see what comes off if you use it with a liberal amount of oil, and then wipe off the dwarf. That's all the more clean it needs to be. you don't need to wipe it often, either.

[Daniel Rode]

I think they prefer to be called little people.

Regardless of one's stature, wiping too often leads to chafing.

You only need to see what comes off if you use it with a liberal amount of oil, and then wipe off the dwarf. That's all the more clean it needs to be. you don't need to wipe it often, either.

[daniel lane]

I was unfamiliar with these auctions, so did a search and have been perusing the site. I've decided that I really like these people, solely for this description:

"An example of PRIEST'S PATENT HORSE CLIPPER as produced by the American Shearer Manufacturing Company, Nashua, New Hampshire. This early patent device is in unused condition in its original box that retains its original picture label. This device was patented on March 22, 1904 by Joseph K. Priest. Despite the limited success of this innovative tool, Joseph remained essentially obscure, while his elder brother, Judas, achieved notoriety throughout the English speaking world as an epithet."

I have to admit, after I laughed, I decided to double-check, so did a search and found that no, of his 13 siblings, Judas was not one. :)


daniel

[David Weaver]

I think they prefer to be called little people.

Regardless of one's stature, wiping too often leads to chafing.

Curse of the dumb phone auto correct strikes again!