Paul Sellers [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Matthew N. Masail

08-01-2014, 7:13 AM

Rob Matarazzo

08-01-2014, 7:16 AM

I like him. I've enjoyed his videos and don't have a bad word to say.

Charles Bjorgen

08-01-2014, 7:34 AM

I am a non-paying member of his Woodworking Masterclass group. What that means is that I can view some of his special videos meant for the paying members. Yup, I feel a bit guilty about that but I doubt I could keep up with a regularly scheduled class. I think his approach is terrific and feel I have learned quite a bit about hand tool use from him. I don't subscribe to his convex bevel technique for sharpening but his recent videos on tuning the No.80 cabinet scraper and spoke shaves have brought those tools of mine back to usefulness. He's a good teacher and many of his videos are available free on YouTube. Frankly I don't recall that much negativity directed toward Sellers other than the convex bevel thing. Others simply don't, like me, want to pay for an online woodworking school. The same can probably be said about Rob Cosman's online school.

Pat Barry

08-01-2014, 7:55 AM

I enjoy watching his on-line video's and find that he has a wealth of experience and knowledge and does a GREAT job of presenting it. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with him worth the time of day.

Daniel Rode

08-01-2014, 8:21 AM

There are lots of people who earn a living teaching and/or writing about woodworking. You'll find fans and detractors of all of them. I'm information omnivorous. I try to gather as many perspectives as I can and then choose what works for me.

As for Paul specifically, I enjoy his style and I've picked up many things I can use. However, I could say the same for at least 20 other people.

Jim Matthews

08-01-2014, 8:24 AM

I find his method practical, and easy to apply.

As you suggest, it allows a maker to get on with the business at hand -
building furniture. No need for an extensive tool kit to make simple things.

What is often lost in translation is that Mr. Sellers will use more involved
equipment - as needed. Most of the heavy equipment in the New Legacy school
is dedicated to milling lumber, and that's an important aspect.

Having done all the necessary steps in taking a rough board
through resawing, trying, smoothing and finishing, jointing and
fitting I can honestly say some things are better done with machines.

The point of his instruction is that you can do all the things machines do,
but not so quickly or so easily.

I would say that Mr. Sellers is supremely competent, and that can come across as arrogant.

I found him anything but, in person.

Brian Holcombe

08-01-2014, 8:28 AM

One can disagree with some of the particulars of a given method without hating the person. I like Paul Sellers' videos and appreciate his contribution.

He has a way of explaining even the minute considerations of what he is doing, while he is doing it, and that is something invaluable when you are working through the trials and tribulations of a new process.

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 8:30 AM

I was one of the people who had an initial negative reaction, but I don't hate everything paul sellers or everything he does. I just think he's selling a gimmick ("lifestyle woodworking") and "don't spend money on tools but spend lots on classes". I just can't get into that kind of stuff, the sort of anti-modernity stuff that is specifically what affords average people the wealth to go spend money on his classes.

I like that he uses stock tools. I just wish he'd dump the gimmick stuff, like making a hag's tooth router out of a 2x4 and a chisel - anyone ever try to actually use a tool like that for reasonable quality work? And the whining about modern society and the implication that we should all hate precisely the things that make our lives a lot easier. It's part of the gimmick. Not saying he doesn't believe in what he's saying, nor am I saying people shouldn't pay to go to his classes or buy videos, etc, that's all a personal decision. He's certainly had blog posts I've agreed with, though I see them by chance because I don't read anyones' blogs.

What does get on my nerves is how it's always about the next guy who comes out (who has already been teaching students for 30 years), and how their new batch of fans sees something a little different (that they would've figured out in the shop, anyway - like not needing lie nielsen planes or expensive chisels to do good work) and all of the sudden whoever just released something new is the "real woodworker" and the rest of the other guys who make their living teaching students are not quite so real - but the group of all of them is much more the same than they are different. The whole time ignoring that the "real" types, the ones who have made a living precisely off of their work and not off of teaching students, are among us, and there are at least three on this board (two in the carving section and one here in hand tools) who do exceptional work and in quantity and of the likes that I've never seen any of the instructors do. There are a select few folks who still make a living or who made a living doing super fine work, and that's it. That's the kind of stuff you, me and everyone else are not going to figure out on our own.

Most of the stuff taught by the internet and class instructors can be learned on your own if you have the desire - and once you've learned it and gotten the sense to be connected enough to what you're doing to solve your own problems, you're done with the beginners stuff, and there's no reason to review the next guru of this or that. But, the real sense of taste, design, proportion, etc - that's where most of us really need help. I recall warren mentioning a while ago that by the time most apprentices had any technical competence, they already had a decent sense of design. We're missing that. And in the sometimes cases where the true masters are telling us stuff *for free* that people would've traveled to learn when the hobby was made of more serious folks only and fewer of them, we have a group of dogpilers who want to assail the messenger because they could care less about the information and only care that someone tells it to them and acts like we're all on the same level.

Tony Zaffuto

08-01-2014, 8:31 AM

My wife bought me his DVD series, along with the accompanying book several years ago as a present. Much of what was presented I was already familiar with, HOWEVER there was much new stuff and it was refreshing to watch someone actually the stuff I already knew. The price of the set was around $160 and was very much worth it. There are a few that are put off by him, but as another says there are always supporters and detractors. What I particularly like is that he is not a tool tester promoter, though he does have some opinions about his likes and dislikes.

I read his blog and several nights ago I was looking to see when he may have a class in the states, but it looks as if he has suspended teaching in the U.S. temporarily. If I ever have the chance to take one of his classes I will. I also bet that he is the kind of guy that is not the "my way or the highway".

Brian Holcombe

08-01-2014, 8:46 AM

For those, whose lifetime passion is woodworking, traveling, seeing many of it's facets and evolving a personal sense of design will all be part of that.

It it drives my wife crazy.

Daniel Rode

08-01-2014, 8:57 AM

I really don't think most folks can learn hand tool woodworking on their own. I can't imagine learning even the basics of how to use a saw chisel and plane without the help of an experienced person, a book or some sort of class. I don't have any family or friends that do this, so I have to seek the knowledge from the Internet, books, magazines or DVDs. The information I get here at SMC is pretty amazing, but I can't expect folks here to teach me every step of the way. Also, the online classes are cheap and convenient, especially compared to live classes. For a few dollars a month I can watch several episodes and fit them in whenever I have time.

Most of the stuff taught by the internet and class instructors can be learned on your own if you have the desire...

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 8:58 AM

I just read his blog a little bit since this came up. Most of the stuff I'm pretty indifferent about just because it's in the rearview mirror by a long shot, but I will certainly say that in his post where he praises the virtues of the stanley bailey plane, and says that it hasn't been improved upon (supposing he means in the context of actual work, and not catalog contest numbers like iron hardness, cast iron ductility, flatness spec), I certainly agree 100%!!!

Steve Voigt

08-01-2014, 9:43 AM

I'm not trying to start a war here at all, I personally find his videos refreshing and fun, and I'd much rather watch that than watch another guy use 12 different special jigs and power tools to create a M&T joint. However, I have seen a lot of (sometimes random) negative comments about him lately some as bad as "I dislike anything Sellers", and I've been wondering why that is…

I guess I made that comment the other day, so I'll own up to it. I don't want to start a war either; Sellers is a skilled woodworker and if people get value out of his writings/videos/etc, I'm happy for them. But since you asked, here are my objections.

The first thing is that Seller's methods are pretty idiosyncratic. That is, his takes on sharpening technique, stones, workbench design, workholding, coping saw use, and many other things fly in the face of what most other experts have done, in some cases for centuries.

By itself, that is fine. The problem, for me, is when he marries these methods to an absolutely dogmatic insistence that his is the ONLY right way to do things, and everyone else is WRONG. For example, hollow grinding is "weak", using a jig is "not real woodworking", waterstones are "a fad", low workbenches are "ridiculous", etc. On pretty much every subject, he presents himself as a Guru, the lonely truth teller in a world of disbelievers. That's what bothers me.

The other thing is that I'm not really impressed with his methods. Some stuff, particularly the saw sharpening, is just fine. But a lot of other stuff, not so much. Have you ever seen the pics where he's trying to explain why a Record vise is (supposedly) better than any other vise? He's got this incredibly awkward setup, where there's a pony clamp holding the work, wedged into the vise. It could be so much simpler, but he keeps insisting that his way is best.

I think that Sellers learned most of his methods as a young man in the 1960s. People like to represent this as some sort of traditional apprenticeship, but it's not like he was working in an 18th century shop. The 60s were pretty much the nadir of the hand-tool woodworking darkness; it's like saying you learned quality control in Detroit in the 1970s. When I see the chisel-router trick that David mentioned, I think it's a neat trick, but it reminds me of that scene in Terminator where they're sitting in front of a TV, but they're using it as a fireplace. In the 20th century, so many traditional techniques and methods (like leg vises,to take just one example) were more or less abandoned; the chain was broken, except for a very few people who bothered to research the old ways. In the last 20 years, there's been a tremendous resurgence of people rediscovering these old techniques. But it doesn't seem to have affected Sellers at all;I think as far as he's concerned, he already knows it all and has nothing to learn from anyone else. I think if he really tried to understand, say a traditional Scandinavian-style or Roubo-style bench, he would have to admit they work better, but that will never happen. He's too invested in being a guru; it's how he makes his living.

I'd also add that I agree with what Dave said in his post above. You can learn from reading books, watching some videos, and most of all practicing. There are no secrets, and almost all the information you need is free or pretty cheap, either on the web or from your local library. There's no need to pay $160 or whatever to gurus like Sellers, Cosman, etc.

george wilson

08-01-2014, 10:05 AM

I did learn hand tool woodworking on my own. By the time I got into college,and did get a good teacher,as far as taste and design was concerned,I was already a competent woodworker. It can be done. I started trying to make guitars at age 13,in Alaska,a cultural vacuum.
I took high school shop,and became,for practical purposes the teacher's assistant in Virginia,after we left Alaska. There was instruction on machine safety. But there was never a word said about sharpening angles for edged tools,or even a mention of not burning your tools on a grinder.

We did have one of those slow grinders that ran in an oil bath,had 2 stones,IIRC,and a large conical stone for inside gouges. No real instruction on how to use it,though.

I think if you have common sense,and a good grip on mechanics,you can learn on your own as I did.

This might be why I do some things the hard way,though.:)

Daniel Rode

08-01-2014, 10:21 AM

George, you are not "most people" :)

Ray Bohn

08-01-2014, 11:01 AM

I have learned a ton from him. The detailed way he discusses subjects and processes is perfect for me. I simply wish he could find the return key- I find myself copying and pasting some of his blogs into Word and breaking them into reasonable paragraphs before I read them.

Kim Malmberg

08-01-2014, 11:19 AM

This thread is turning out to be a good one, quite opposite to what I expected. I have to admit that I have a general dislike for threads like 'do you like Sellers', 'what do you think of the Schwarz' or what do we think of Rob Cosman and other gurus. I dislike the facts that it tends to get personal about people who are not there to defend themselves.
My motto is that I don't have to like everything and therefore I try to tolerate as much as possible even when I actually dislike it.
Getting to the point it is clear that Sellers divides people just like any other high profile person in woodworking or other occupations.
I will admit that I generally and truly like Sellers because he takes the time to thoroughly explain what he is doing and why it is important. This is something very few other do.
We who spend a lot of our time at SMC are about as different as we are many. Which means that we have different mindsets, skills, preferred methods and that we learn stuff different ways.
I correspond with maybe a handful woodworkers in my country. Two of them have visited my shop and during those times we discussed hand tools more than woodworking. If I didn't have access to Sellers through the Internet I wouldn't know what I do Today. Yes, I have read a ton about how to fettle with tools, how to work the wood and so on. And I have practiced nd practiced and practiced. But when you try to learn by reading you can misunderstand things. You can get it all entirely wrong. And it will frustrate you until the point of desperation. The first saw I filed took me six or seven sessions to make it just about right. Had I seen a good video tutorial before I started working on that saw I'm sure I would have done a better job.
I think it is important to understand that even though there are thousands of skilled woodworkers out there willingly providing tutorials and guides these people are not necessarily skilled in the techniques of teaching or able to understand the level of skills at the receiving end.
It took me close to three years before I actually understood what people mean with a secondary bevel and on which side of the blade it should be.
I'm a novice and will probably never become a very good woodworker. But I still get a lot of satisfaction and joy from this hobby. And I'm thankful that someone like Sellers is there to simplify things for me even if there might be more adequate methods available.
In my mind Sellers is the only one who has dedicated himself to helping us poor and lowly souls who are not yet in the know to discover our possibilities and free ourselves from the burden of doubt.

Matthew N. Masail

08-01-2014, 12:17 PM

I'm really glad to see all these responses.

Steve, your comment was not the first, but it was the one that finally got me thinking about this. I can understand how he comes off that way, I personally do not agree with some of his ways, for instance I think 38" is way too high for a bench, mine was 35" and now it's 33.5" and that feels just right. old German benches I've seen are around 34". but 38" works for him. the way he pulls the plane in that video to 'prove" that a high bench is fine does seems as if he is trying to say that his way it the best, but I actually take it as him showing and proving why he does it the way that he does, which I find to be a good thing as he has a reason for his decision. I never get the feeling that he is dishing other ways, he seems very open minded, but he believe is HIS way very much. the only thing I don't love is that he will set up circumstances in order to prove a point. like that video with the plane sharpened to 250grit.... he didn't say what "250" is, didn't show us the sharpening before hand, and he used pine for the demo. as friend of mine said "all that proves is that a dull blade can cut soft wood". lol.

I have been one of those that fell far down the rabbit hole, buying expensive crap I don't need, and wasting precious time obsessing about stones and planes and types of steel and what not, only to discover in the end that the basics work beautifully and there is no No.4 plane that I know of that I would rather have that an old Stanley. king stones are fine also.. just messy.
I "Blame" people like Rob Cosmen and the such for this, because they are not looking out for the best interest of newbies or advocating a healthy woodworking altitude, they are trying to sell overpriced IBC blades, Woodriver planes and such. Paul seller is the counter force, I can say for me he has helped me gain my sanity back.

Bob Lang

08-01-2014, 12:19 PM

I think that Sellers learned most of his methods as a young man in the 1960s. People like to represent this as some sort of traditional apprenticeship, but it's not like he was working in an 18th century shop. The 60s were pretty much the nadir of the hand-tool woodworking darkness; it's like saying you learned quality control in Detroit in the 1970s. When I see the chisel-router trick that David mentioned, I think it's a neat trick, but it reminds me of that scene in Terminator where they're sitting in front of a TV, but they're using it as a fireplace. In the 20th century, so many traditional techniques and methods (like leg vises,to take just one example) were more or less abandoned; the chain was broken, except for a very few people who bothered to research the old ways. In the last 20 years, there's been a tremendous resurgence of people rediscovering these old techniques. But it doesn't seem to have affected Sellers at all;I think as far as he's concerned, he already knows it all and has nothing to learn from anyone else. I think if he really tried to understand, say a traditional Scandinavian-style or Roubo-style bench, he would have to admit they work better, but that will never happen. He's too invested in being a guru; it's how he makes his living.

I'd also add that I agree with what Dave said in his post above. You can learn from reading books, watching some videos, and most of all practicing. There are no secrets, and almost all the information you need is free or pretty cheap, either on the web or from your local library. There's no need to pay $160 or whatever to gurus like Sellers, Cosman, etc.

I think we're seeing some revisionist history here. At the time I learned woodworking, in the early 1970s, there were plenty of guys who knew how to use hand tools, and used them everyday on the job. Yes, in the world of hobbyists people bought into the post-WWII marketing of power tools as always better, but in the real world there wasn't any "broken chain" or need to research the old ways, guys were doing what they had been shown when they were young. Someone who apprenticed in the 1930s isn't that far removed from how things were done in the 19th century. That's the stuff that the current generation of gurus uses to give themselves credibility. Good new tools were hard to find, but there were people around who knew what they were doing. There are good reasons things have been done certain ways for centuries, and there are also usually good reasons when things are abandoned after being used for centuries. If your goal is to make nice stuff out of wood in a timely manner it isn't hard to figure out when new is better than old, or old is better than new.

Bob Lang

Tony Zaffuto

08-01-2014, 12:20 PM

Since Kim just mentioned Swartz, he made a comment about people of SMC that could be taken as disparaging. It was in response to Mark Harrell tweet (twitter).

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 12:31 PM

the only thing I don't love is that he will set up circumstances in order to prove a point. like that video with the plane sharpened to 250grit.... he didn't say what "250" is, didn't show us the sharpening before hand, and he used pine for the demo. as friend of mine said "all that proves is that a dull blade can cut soft wood". lol.

That's the gimmick work I was referring to. There's a critical detail missing in that whole gimmick demo, I asked a question about it but got no answer. Was the iron stropped on anything? It's not hard to get geometric potential out of an iron when the wire edge is removed, even if the edge is rough. But if you leave what is effectively a fresh coarse/medium india edge on something with no removal of the wire edge, that's an entirely different situation.

I wonder how many newbies took a coarse stone without understand what they were doing, tried to sharpen an iron with it and went with that (this coming from someone who's generally been sharpening with one stone lately).

I don't think anyone should mistake the fact that sellers is getting paid, he's just not getting paid by selling tools, he's selling his school and classes instead.

And the stuff about workbench height - nobody needs someone else to determine that for them. You can figure it out on your own far better than you can adopt someone else's desires. In a situation where you're making your first decision, the best thing to do is still go back to historical use of workbenches and find out where people had them relative to their height...especially if you're going to do more than chop dovetails and smooth boards that were prepared with power tools.

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 12:33 PM

. If your goal is to make nice stuff out of wood in a timely manner it isn't hard to figure out when new is better than old, or old is better than new.

Bob Lang

In short, experience is what most people are lacking. People these days want to know what the solutions are before they know what their problems are. That's a good way to never "own" your own knowledge. Nobody likes to hear that what they need is some experience and repetition, though. They want the answer, and sometimes people want to know the answer without making the effort to think of what the question is.

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 12:37 PM

he made a comment about people of SMC that could be taken as disparaging.

That's OK, I can't see how his opinion matters much when we have access to professional craftsmen here, as opposed to hobbyist fumbling through "discoveries" of things that have been around for quite some time, or that anyone would figure out on their own just with some experience.

Jim Koepke

08-01-2014, 12:54 PM

I am another one of those who had no real training in woodworking. I have not done any great works like others in this boat, but I do enjoy what I have done.

My family environment did teach me about things mechanical and watching my father use a saw it was something I picked up from that. Of course since getting involved on a deeper level I have learned a whole lot more.

Some of the "secrets of woodworking" are repeated so often they kind of float by. Tage Frid often remarks about "sawing to the line" being an important skill. Everyone has heard this "secret." The trick is to understand the secret. Some misinterpret it into splitting the line. That takes a fat line and a thin saw.

I explained it to my grandson a few days ago while showing him how to make dovetails. When marking the second piece, whether you do pins first or tails first, the line is outside of the waste. If the sawing is done right to the line, the joint will fit well. If the sawing takes some of the line the joint will be loose. If the sawing is done a hair away from the line the joint will be tight and maybe a little paring will be in order.

So, back to Paul Sellers, he is a much more accomplished woodworker than me. I have actually only seen about three of his videos.

One on his convex bevel method.

One on only needing to sharpen a plane blade to a 250 grit.

One on quick dovetails.

If the convex bevel method works for you then fine. If stropping 30 strokes on each side of a blade works for you fine.

For me my blades are sharpened and tested. I have found that for me using more than 5 strokes per side on the strop can round the edge. It may be my technique, but another "expert" also feels over stropping is not good.

On the sharpening a plane blade to 250 grit being sufficient, it would have been better in my mind if he presented this as an exercise by having people try for themselves honing to different grits. As it is there are likely people claiming that is all that is needed because Paul Sellers said so.

It is kind of like claiming the most important part of the plane is the blade and therefore buying a premium blade will correct all the problems of an improperly set up plane.

Mr. Sellers video on quick dovetails appeared to be a sloppy satire on 5 minute dovetails. I do not think it imparted any information to help someone who may be having trouble making a dovetail joint.

So, in my case, first impressions of Mr. Sellers may actually have been formed based on his three worst videos. It reminds me of working with another technician on my last job. He was being trained by someone with a lot of experience. One of our tasks was to adjust magnetic stripe readers in ticket machines. The specification was for them to be 0.005" above the roller. One trainee from the shift before mine was always setting them tight against the roller and causing the roller to wear out prematurely. When I met up with the two of them one day I brought up the problem I was having with worn rollers and asked the experienced tech to show the new tech how to set the heads a little looser. He jokingly said,"no, you want those as tight as you can so they squeeze out all the information from the ticket." The new tech took this seriously and I ended up having to follow after the new guy and readjust the magnetic heads on everything he worked on or replace rollers. My level of respect for the experienced tech dropped significantly after that day.

There are many ways to get to an end in woodworking. We are all free to choose the way that gets us where we are going. If one leader takes you down a path that works for you then it doesn't matter what others think of them.

Some of us like to have a minimum of tools. That is great.

Some of us can not resist buying another homely Stanley/Bailey #4 to put on the shelf with the other #4s. That is also fine.

I like using a single flat bevel on most of my blades. It works for me.

Some like a hollow grind (by the way I do). That is great if you have the grinder set up to hollow grind your blades.

Some like a secondary bevel. Some like a tertiary bevel. Ain't no skin off my back.

Some cut tails first others cut pins first. Who am I to argue with what works for you?

Schwarz seems to leave some ticked off. I find some of his stuff of interest.

Heck, even some of the stuff Sellers does has information that has value to me.

What is the old story about even the fool can say something wise and useful. One just has to be able to glean the good and discard the useless.

jtk

Sam Stephens

08-01-2014, 12:55 PM

I like Paul's stuff -good approach as a teacher and has a very simple and encouraging tone/method for getting folks started working wood. I think the condescension of whether his or someone else's method is the best/right way is rather a moot point. Sure, he can be dogmatic at times, but so are many of the folks here advocating their own methods. Try it and see. If you like it, stick in your toolbox, if not, move on and get over it. If you feel that your way is superior, then why not put it out there for others to try. In that vein, I enjoy reading Derek Cohen's blog and posts as well.

Tony Zaffuto

08-01-2014, 1:03 PM

That's OK, I can't see how his opinion matters much when we have access to professional craftsmen here, as opposed to hobbyist fumbling through "discoveries" of things that have been around for quite some time, or that anyone would figure out on their own just with some experience.

alluded to us not knowing we're about to saw into our "nether" regions!

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 1:19 PM

lowell holmes

08-01-2014, 1:40 PM

Look at all of the free advertising Paul is getting from you guys.

He has to love it. :)

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 1:58 PM

Look at all of the free advertising Paul is getting from you guys.

He has to love it. :)

I think we've called it "drawing heat" in prior discussions, like the heel wrestler used to do in pro wrestling. Make the old ladies mad so that they will buy a ticket to your wrestling show to have the chance at swinging their purse at you when you run down the aisle (otherwise known as, get people to pay for seats any way you can). I think I drew some heat for calling it huckstering.

Gimmick is also a term I stole from pro wrestling.

Tony Zaffuto

08-01-2014, 2:08 PM

Phil Stone

08-01-2014, 2:14 PM

I may be a bit more thin skinned that I took offense. Chris has helped the newbie hobby side, but give me a guy like Sellers, Our own George and a host of other less vocal people that have real substance.

I will be forever grateful to Chris Schwarz for his research into the Roubo workbench, and for his detailed, friendly and humorous way of describing how to build one. I enjoy his blog, but don't take it as gospel. I'd say he has "real substance", but don't care to get into comparing him with this or that local luminary.

Zach Dillinger

08-01-2014, 2:18 PM

I had to look up what he's talking about. I saw sitting down like that, but not quite so awkwardly.

It looks like someone else was taking a shot at Schwarz and he retweeted it, unless whoever was tweeting it to him said something as satire. Who knows, I'm not a twitterhead, or whatever a person reading twitter would be called.

I may be a bit more thin skinned that I took offense. Chris has helped the newbie hobby side, but give me a guy like Sellers, Our own George and a host of other less vocal people that have real substance.

It wasn't a simple retweet... his tweet said;

@BadAxeToolWorks I recommend that position for the readers of Sawmill Creek. For the rest of us, teeth away from the boys.

And he then retweeted:
@RudeMechanic (https://twitter.com/RudeMechanic)@TwoWheelNeil (https://twitter.com/TwoWheelNeil)@BadAxeToolWorks (https://twitter.com/BadAxeToolWorks) ha! That would involve 'using' a tool and not just talking about it.

Ultimately, not a big deal. But I can see why that would offend some.

David Barnett

08-01-2014, 2:18 PM

He might not like that we (the more picky hacks like me on this board) put the opinions and the advice of the warrens and the georges above the advice of amateurs/publishers/bloggers, and therefore really wouldn't seek any advice from him other than where the next tool selling show might be (that'd be people other than me seeking such advice).

I should say I'm clearly in the Weaver/Voigt camp where Sellers is concerned but I don't get too ruffled about it as I really don't care one way or the other who people choose to follow, learn from, lionize or even canonize. It amuses me these days more than it could ever irk me. I've always been a cafeteria craftsman—take a little of this or that, mix it up—weaving it into my praxis which has and will evolve.

Yes, Sellers teaches a personal and idiosyncratic way of woodworking. I'm pretty idiosyncratic, too, but I don't push my quirks and inclinations as doctrinaire, but then I don't teach—I'd rather make stuff. So not really having any skin in the game, I just share what I do and let others try or pooh-pooh it, which fulfills and entertains me.

Right now, I'm rather enjoying rethinking, relearning and developing new strategies and skills following my CVA. While I haven't quite got my "feel" back when sharpening freehand, it's coming back nicely and I'm revisiting jigs that I haven't picked up in years, although I'm not really relying on them as I first thought I might. Recovering at an amazing pace, I'm using this as an opportunity for innovation. Doing things only one way can certainly sharpen technique and produce consistent results but over time can be limiting, too.

So if Sellers gets people in the shop making things, that's good. Anyone who's really serious, inquisitive and talented will overcome the constraints of a teacher's influence, whether that teacher is good or bad, and will search for and find their own way. If not, at least they'll learn one way of doing things and can happily hack away at what they enjoy or find useful.

Some do need a hands-on up-close-and-personal mentor and a Sellers may give them the confidence they would otherwise lack. Others, like me, are confirmed autodidacts and even with good teachers feel and consider most learning as self-taught lifelong processes.

I quite like sawing while sitting, by the way.

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 2:38 PM

Ultimately, not a big deal.

Yeah, I agree, for several reasons. Not sure I'd use the word mechanic in my name were I me or Chris, though. Bit presumptuous!

Steve Voigt

08-01-2014, 2:41 PM

I think we're seeing some revisionist history here. At the time I learned woodworking, in the early 1970s, there were plenty of guys who knew how to use hand tools, and used them everyday on the job. Yes, in the world of hobbyists people bought into the post-WWII marketing of power tools as always better, but in the real world there wasn't any "broken chain" or need to research the old ways, guys were doing what they had been shown when they were young. Someone who apprenticed in the 1930s isn't that far removed from how things were done in the 19th century. That's the stuff that the current generation of gurus uses to give themselves credibility. Good new tools were hard to find, but there were people around who knew what they were doing. There are good reasons things have been done certain ways for centuries, and there are also usually good reasons when things are abandoned after being used for centuries. If your goal is to make nice stuff out of wood in a timely manner it isn't hard to figure out when new is better than old, or old is better than new.

Bob Lang

Bob, I have to disagree. To take just one example, how many people in the 70s, professional or otherwise, knew how to use a chipbreaker to control tearout on really nasty wood? Certainly not Sellers (http://paulsellers.com/2013/12/caps-chip-breakers/). There are other examples like that, things that were largely forgotten and have been recently rediscovered. Or maybe re-popularized is a better term, because you are certainly right that most things didn't completely disappear. But numbers matter.

I'm not sure I get your point about the 1930s. In 1930, there was an unbelievable number of options for buying quality, mass-produced tools: Stanley, MF, Disston, etc. By say 1965, there were practically zero; the companies were either bankrupt or making garbage. Today, the pendulum has swung the other way (though it's obviously more of a boutique situation). I agree with you that the marketplace isn't perfectly reflective of what people were doing in their shops, but I think it reflects the general trend.

I have to say, I don't have your level of experience working in top-notch shops, but I have worked in shops and on many a job site, and I can count on a hand with five fingers missing the number of guys who could flawlessly plane any board, joint by hand without a guide, and even saw to a line perfectly. And dovetails? Forget it. Hey, has anyone seen the biscuit joiner? :D

Steve Voigt

08-01-2014, 2:56 PM

Chris has helped the newbie hobby side, but give me a guy like Sellers, Our own George and a host of other less vocal people that have real substance.

Tony, I agree with you that Chris is quite a prolific writer, but Sellers sure gives him a run for his money! Actually, I think that's why I get prickly about him. I often check out the blog aggregators, like norse woodsmith, and so I'm seeing a LONG post by Paul almost every day. I really need to get off my butt and make my own RSS feed; I'd probably chill out then.

If anyone cares, here's the difference between Sellers and Schwarz for me. Compare this article (http://paulsellers.com/2011/12/going-against-the-gods-myth-busting/) to this one (http://blog.lostartpress.com/2011/07/27/oilstones-waterstones-whatever/). The difference is stark. One is dogmatic, dismissive, and presents the author as the only person who won't lie to you. The other is open-minded and tolerant, but doesn't pretend that "all ways are equally good": it just presents usable advice that can be adapted to a variety of methods.

Steve Voigt

08-01-2014, 3:01 PM

… I don't get too ruffled about it as I really don't care one way or the other who people choose to follow, learn from, lionize or even canonize. It amuses me these days more than it could ever irk me. I've always been a cafeteria craftsman—take a little of this or that, mix it up—weaving it into my praxis which has and will evolve.

Yes, Sellers teaches a personal and idiosyncratic way of woodworking. I'm pretty idiosyncratic, too, but I don't push my quirks and inclinations as doctrinaire, but then I don't teach—I'd rather make stuff. So not really having any skin in the game, I just share what I do and let others try or pooh-pooh it, which fulfills and entertains me.

Very well said, David.
More importantly, I'm really happy to hear you are recovering nicely!

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 3:21 PM

I'm pretty idiosyncratic, too, but I don't push my quirks

Ditto - it's sort of like the old mathematics text books that said, "i've left this part of the proof out, because you can do it yourself". People who couldn't prove the missing part got upset, but it was a good indication that mathematical theory might not be something they should get into.

Kim Malmberg

08-01-2014, 4:43 PM

Ditto - it's sort of like the old mathematics text books that said, "i've left this part of the proof out, because you can do it yourself". People who couldn't prove the missing part got upset, but it was a good indication that mathematical theory might not be something they should get into.

I'm sorry. "Not pushing my quirks" is a tad strong, when it is followed up with a very unmistakeable view of other people.

I take no personal offense in others being critical about Paul Sellers, Chris Schwarz or others. But I'm not at all surprised if Schwarz feels a bit pissed off about the shaft he has received from this site.

My view is very clear. I don't subscribe to or even grasp all the stuff that Chris Schwarz teaches or preaches. But he deserves credit for being one of very few who has actually taken the time to study woodworking in a historical context. That to me is a feat which has a value of it's own and deserves respect.

Mike Henderson

08-01-2014, 4:53 PM

I have to admit that I've never seen anything by Sellers and really don't know who he is. I took instruction in woodworking at my local community college and found it excellent. The instructors were all very good and the things they taught had been vetted through many classes and were safe practices. My own opinion is that once you have the basics, the rest is up to you. You need to build stuff and try to make each project better.

I also agree that the thing that distinguishes a woodworker as "excellent" is the design aspect. Many, many people can learn the techniques of woodworking, but it seems that very few people can produce furniture designs that are pleasing and functional. I don't know how you can teach design, however. But what looks like a flash of creativity is usually the result of many iterations of a design, and evolution of an earlier design.

And just a side note, I just HATE DVD instruction. I'd much rather have a book with pictures. Most of the time, I only really need to reference a part of the instruction and finding that on a DVD is usually very difficult. I get very impatient listening to the instructor go through things I already know how to do. And most of them talk way too much - blah, blah, blah.

Mike

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 5:13 PM

Matthew N. Masail

08-01-2014, 6:04 PM

Ditto - it's sort of like the old mathematics text books that said, "i've left this part of the proof out, because you can do it yourself". People who couldn't prove the missing part got upset, but it was a good indication that mathematical theory might not be something they should get into.

Dude, he didn't say "you can do it yourself" he said "the side lines of this book are too narrow to contain the proof", and that little sentence drove mathematicians MAD for decades, they put out a multi million dollar prize in hope that SOMEONE would keep going and solve the damn thing. it took the guy 8 years to solve it and they still don't know how Pherma originally proved it because it was solved thanks to a new modern formula by 2 Japanese guys.... I might have been about the guys ego though, because Pherma liked to toy with his british colleagues, and they always took him seriously because, well, he was a genius. I read they used to call him "that dman french guy" . sorry.

edit: just occurred to me that you weren't talking about that

Tony Zaffuto

08-01-2014, 6:11 PM

Kind of funny is that my most useful bench is one long & narrow, and nearly 40" high! Copied from a Pat Warner router DVD!

Mike Brady

08-01-2014, 6:11 PM

Polar<--------------------------------------l-----------------------------------------------> izing

Matthew N. Masail

08-01-2014, 6:16 PM

No, by not pushing my quirks, I mean if you have your bench at 35 inches, or 42, etc, I just don't care as long as you get the results you want. If you use roubo, or if you use a modern bench and taiwanese hardware, same. I just don't think that stuff is important to debate - things of such a rudimentary level do not need to be pored over when the biggest deficiency that most folks have is crappy wood and poor design. Crappy wood is OK if that's part of the design, but not if it's not.

Even beginners should be focused on that stuff and less focused on the shopping list or "tell me exactly how to do it".

The stories of the people doing the great work are littered with bare bones setups for their first few years (or more), despite thinking about those things in the beginning. They aren't littered with discussions of sharpening methods or bench height.

I agree, and I'm guilty too, if I put half as much effort into making stuff as I do into tools, I'd be a much better woodworker, and this is where I like Sellers, because he is the first I've seen that just gets on with it, and helps you feel ok about just going at it, rather than "must be able to control my cuts within 2 microns in order to build anything". he does go into stuff that I think he shouldn't, like the bench height, that video should be named planing mechanics the leave the bench out of it, because that part is good. I imagine he feels the need to find stuff to talk about, it's much simpler than building more stuff in front of the camera.

Jim Matthews

08-01-2014, 6:21 PM

I just can't get into that kind of stuff, the sort of anti-modernity stuff that is specifically what affords average people the wealth to go spend money on his classes.

I pointed out in the class that the Doctors, Lawyers and other professionals in attendance weren't looking for validation, they're the ones that could afford it.

The whole time ignoring that the "real" types, the ones who have made a living precisely off of their work and not off of teaching students, are among us, and there are at least three on this board (two in the carving section and one here in hand tools) who do exceptional work and in quantity and of the likes that I've never seen any of the instructors do. There are a select few folks who still make a living or who made a living doing super fine work, and that's it. That's the kind of stuff you, me and everyone else are not going to figure out on our own.

I've heard this from a couple of instructors, they teach to make ends meet. I know of three NBSS grads that are what I would consider gifted and they
lament the tour schedule required to keep the classes fully attended. It's a perverse incentive, and an odd field for competition.

What I did here in Mr. Sellers' class was an undercurrent of resentment that the most prominent, and frequently quoted articles on the subject of woodworking
are written by people that never made their living by building things for sale to clients. That clearly rankled.

But, the real sense of taste, design, proportion, etc - that's where most of us really need help. I recall warren mentioning a while ago that by the time most apprentices had any technical competence, they already had a decent sense of design.

This is the essential problem I have with all the "make this project" series. Few have lasting appeal, to me - particularly the derivative stuff.

I'm much more interested in things that people make without a template; walking the wire without a net.

The whole "live edge" thing escapes me, for example.

David Barnett

08-01-2014, 7:05 PM

I just don't think that stuff is important to debate - things of such a rudimentary level do not need to be pored over when the biggest deficiency that most folks have is crappy wood and poor design.

Even beginners should be focused on that stuff and less focused on the shopping list or "tell me exactly how to do it".

That resonates with me, and since you brought it up...

It also occurs to me that when I look up Tage Frid, I find an oeuvre of a recognizable and personal style and technique albeit derivative of Danish influences, even more so with James Krenov, and so on. When I look up Paul Sellers, I find occasional workmanlike pieces but not so much anything aesthetically remarkable or memorable.

Technique apart from context of design and aesthetic is valuable, exciting and enjoyable but has never to me been enough in itself. It's on the path, sure, but it's not the destination.

I personally would seek to learn first from those who've made an inspiring and significant impact on their craft. Even in the better colleges and universities, the most accomplished and recognized scientists, authors and artists often taught survey and beginner classes, and I would seek the same in any craft. Design, technical and aesthetic dimensions are too interwoven and integral to want less.

For those who haven't the advantages or drive to begin that way, I'd still think more is gained by immersing oneself in the best and most inspiring first, whether books, films or museums—the skills and technique will follow if the drive and vision are burning inside. Perhaps that seems old-fashioned but that's how I roll, what I've always wanted from my efforts. Again, that's just me. I've always endeavored to create something special and have never been satisfied or fulfilled with less.

"Ford and the world Fords with you. Rolls and you Rolls alone."

Jim Matthews

08-01-2014, 7:12 PM

... I'm not a twitterhead, or whatever a person reading twitter would be called.

They're known as teenage girls, mostly.

David Barnett

08-01-2014, 7:37 PM

And to think many were convinced Fermat did that only to vex generations of frustrated future mathematicians.

Brian Holcombe

08-01-2014, 8:22 PM

I think stuff like bench design and sharpening are important to get up to speed on, then move forward. Given enough time you'll eventually find the minutiae of what you want in a bench or how to process your cutting edges, but that comes with experience and there truly is no substitute. It also becomes very unimportant in the day to day once the foundation is set.

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 9:24 PM

I pointed out in the class that the Doctors, Lawyers and other professionals in attendance weren't looking for validation, they're the ones that could afford it.

Most folks of that ilk tend to have certainty and confidence wrapped up already. And spouses who would not tolerate a change of lifestyle.

I've heard this from a couple of instructors, they teach to make ends meet. I know of three NBSS grads that are what I would consider gifted and they
lament the tour schedule required to keep the classes fully attended. It's a perverse incentive, and an odd field for competition.

I have heard excellent things about the short courses at NBSS.

What I did here in Mr. Sellers' class was an undercurrent of resentment that the most prominent, and frequently quoted articles on the subject of woodworking
are written by people that never made their living by building things for sale to clients. That clearly rankled.

Yeah, I agree there. And I really don't have such a problem with sellers as it may appear I do. I do someone admire the gimmickry and the heat drawing, but I *am* a fan of 1980s pro wrestling where that was part of the game. I always liked that kind of stuff, and it works - they had to get people in the seats. I also note that he *does* use his tools competently and in doing so, the work looks pedestrian and routine, as opposed to always looking like being on the edge of jamming a saw or overexertion as someone like schwartz does. Some people are just ungainly, but I haven't seen too many of the true pros do anything other than make things look pretty subtle. It's good to see people working like that, it gets you to realize what you should look like when you're doing good work - subtle and paced, but consistent. Such a thing is one of the bridges that narrows the divide between dimensioning with hand tools and power tools. The only thing left that i can think of where it really gasses me to do by hand is thickness planing something large when you have the misfortune of ending up with stock that's "tweener", too thick to use and too thin to resaw without a bandsaw.

This is the essential problem I have with all the "make this project" series. Few have lasting appeal, to me - particularly the derivative stuff.

I'm much more interested in things that people make without a template; walking the wire without a net.

The whole "live edge" thing escapes me, for example.

That's quite the problem with many things - no sense in building something you wouldn't actually want. The gateway drug to building interesting furniture is a combination of turning/carving/mouldings and aside from a few classes from folks who are making moulding planes (and thus need to show where you'd use them), there is little press of that. It is something best learned at the bench, but the design sense has to be learned, and the best way I can think of to get design critique is george or warren or mr barnett, etc. I know they own their answers when they provide them, which means they have a see-saw's worth of leverage to help me make adjustments.

David Weaver

08-01-2014, 9:40 PM

And to think many were convinced Fermat did that only to vex generations of frustrated future mathematicians.

I wonder what fermat's version of the proof would've looked like. I was in college at the time the modern proof was being vetted. At the time, the proof was something like 120 pages long, which seemed horribly long, but it seems less long now than it did then (I know a subsequent version is a bit more compact). Not that I'd understand any of it.

One of the things about sellers when he came out with the latest remix, and perhaps it's my irritation with internet viral things more than it is with sellers, was the immediate rush to pummel everyone on the forums with "sellers says so and he has a piece in the white house" (it appears that it's two).

I saw pictures of the pieces on his site, they are fine. He's certainly a better woodworker than me, but I'm not a professional woodworker. I sense the stuff that's in the white house is because of relationships or location of the school (in texas), but that's just my supposition. I see some of the stuff george has made and it leaves you feeling boggled, and the same for some of the vintage carvings mark yundt has blessed us with in the carving section - they are practically alive.

I'm sure I could get along with sellers, though. He's getting people to break a sweat and use their tools, and he seems like a pragmatic guy.

Jim Koepke

08-01-2014, 9:54 PM

Look at all of the free advertising Paul is getting from you guys.

He has to love it. :)

If it is the cause of him interesting one more person in woodworking then it is all good.

Almost everyone who enters the public forum will have detractors.

jtk

Winton Applegate

08-01-2014, 10:16 PM

I'm information omnivorous. I try to gather as many perspectives as I can and then choose what works for me.
That is BEAUTIFUL !
That's just what I do as well.
I enjoy finding and trying all the different methods very much.
My goal isn't to get a lot of woodworking done or make an income from it.
My goal is to LEARN high end HAND TOOL woodworking.

AS FAR AS MR. SELLARS
I know almost nothing about him. I have seen his sharpening video a couple of times.
I have taught public classes for income in more than one field and I agree he does an excellent job. I enjoyed his video.
I just know for certain what works best FOR PLANE BLADES, forgetting about chisels etc., for the moment.
I come at sharpening from a "sharp, HIGH QUALITY edge first" mentality . . . before speed and then start looking at ways to speed up the process while maintaining the quality.

I think David has achieved a very high standard in that regard.

Not talking about David's method now but just all the quicker methods in general that are out there . . .
For my self I am not willing to give up some quality for a more quickly sharpened edge.
I agree it is a perfectly reasonable trade off, in most cases.

FOR A BEVEL DOWN plane blade a rounded bevel is . . .
A__M I S T A K E
PERIOD.

I isn't Mr. Sellers I have a problem with it is the whole crazy cat roundy method I KNOW is just counter productive.
Now if you are sharpening a pocket knife or a steel cutting cold chisel even a wood carving chisel THEN go to it.

I'll say it again
FOR A BEVEL DOWN plane blade a rounded bevel is . . .
A__M I S T A K E

David Barnett

08-01-2014, 10:29 PM

I saw pictures of the pieces on his site, they are fine. He's certainly a better woodworker than me, but I'm not a professional woodworker.

That's my take. It's appropriate to the setting and looks to be well made. It doesn't do anything for me beyond that, however, but that's about taste—mine, that is.

I've seen competently made pieces in homes and public spaces that move me—most don't—but that's about personal taste and preference rather than quality of construction. I've been inspired and moved by work that falls short of technical excellence, as well. I don't care for most period pieces, especially reproductions, even though they may be consummately realized.

Please deliver me from ornately wrought decorative elements and Byzantine or Baroque complexities! As pants the hart for cooling streams so my soul longs for clean lines and quiet spaces.

I see some of the stuff george has made and it leaves you feeling boggled, and the same for some of the vintage carvings mark yundt has blessed us with in the carving section - they are practically alive.

I can easily appreciate and revere craftsmanship apart from my preferences and needs as I can appreciate design apart from the best craftsmanship. When both come together, though, it can stir one to the core. It's all so personal.

If Seller's craft satisfies another, I have no quarrel, and if his ways of making things, his views on modernity. lifestyle and approach to business impresses and appeals to another, so be it. That said, as long as I can express my preferences, opinions and criticisms without ire or reprisal beyond reasoned if energetic argument, I'm entirely content. No cause to get all exercised over differences in taste, technique or opinion. No-one gets hurt until the dogma bites.

Jim Koepke

08-01-2014, 10:33 PM

I don't subscribe to or even grasp all the stuff that Chris Schwarz teaches or preaches. But he deserves credit for being one of very few who has actually taken the time to study woodworking in a historical context. That to me is a feat which has a value of it's own and deserves respect.

Very good point.

Mr. Schwarz is like many of us, on a journey of exploration. He just leaves bigger tracks.

Some of his achievements are worth all the cheers and accolades. Some may come up missing anything to interest readers.

jtk

David Barnett

08-01-2014, 11:14 PM

It occurs to me we're perhaps talking about two different things, or maybe classes of attainment—one, where someone wants to get the basics and flavor of woodworking, to learn to make something that will give pleasure and pride or at least doesn't get hid in a dark corner and to improve on this as time goes on, and the other, where it's desired to approach, realize or transcend some creative and artistic threshold. One needn't move beyond the ordinary or mundane to find artistic fulfillment, though. Charles Rennie Mackintosh endeavored to express what he saw as the "sacredness of everyday life". So depending on one's expectations and goals, the personal benchmark should probably be just how well one attains and derives satisfaction in the creative process in making things, if not the outcome.

I dunno. I should probably go to bed.

Brian Holcombe

08-01-2014, 11:52 PM

Hill House chair and the Argyle chair are very incredible everyday objects. I appreciate his goal, being that everyday objects are the interface of everyday life. I enjoying living amongst craftsman built objects. Taking a moment when using an everyday object to contemplate the creative process, consideration for the user, skill and execution of processes is something I find great enjoyment in.

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 12:35 AM

Paul Sellers is a very good teacher, better than anyone who cares to spend their time sharing their comments here. His approach may not please everyone nor may his style. I see no gimmicks from him, just his ways of presentation which we may or not may accept. What I really like about his videos (some of his recent blog posts suck) is that they are easy to understand and most, if not all, are free of unnecessary fillers. His sharpening method has allowed many people to start sharpening free hand, something no other woodworkers before him, including Rob Cosman, have succeeded.

Since not every woodworker likes him, he must be doing something right. I consider his free Masterclass episodes a community service.

Simon

Kim Malmberg

08-02-2014, 7:01 AM

David Barnett

08-02-2014, 7:33 AM

His sharpening method has allowed many people to start sharpening free hand, something no other woodworkers before him, including Rob Cosman, have succeeded.

New to you, perhaps?

Ever hear of Ian Kirby, Simon? His "Sharpening with Waterstones: A Perfect Edge in 60 Seconds (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1622488.Sharpening_with_Waterstones)", written well before Sellers' recent re-popularizing, is an entire book based upon his method, just one style of freehanding which worked for a generation of woodworkers. And how about Frank Klausz? So many others, too, but I'll leave it there.

When I started, a mere twenty years ago, freehand sharpening was pretty much the norm in the shops I visited and learned in. Jigs (which had been around forever) were becoming ever more popular, though, especially with Veritas' introduction, and many of us incorporated them into our work, in spite of the stigma still prevalent in many shops. Sellers' convex technique (with fewer steps, mind you), was more common among on-site tradesmen—a somewhat quick-and-dirty way to keep going until they could touch up and restore their bevels once back in the shop. Nothing wrong with convex, though—nothing at all.

george wilson

08-02-2014, 8:03 AM

Kim,I spent 40 years studying woodworking in a historical context in Williamsburg. A bit longer than Chris has been working,I'd think.

Most of my life,I have used a convex edge by default,since I have always sharpened freehand,starting about 1954 in a more serious involvement in woodworking. Frankly,sometimes I sharpen with a micro bevel,now that I can use a grinder. I just don't make that much of a deal out of the two methods. When I was in an 18th. C. setting,we didn't have an effective grinder on hand,so hand beveling was what we had to do.

Those sandstone wheels the museum managed to get made at $300.00 a pop,were so fine,it was impossible to bevel a plane iron on them. They were all we had.I once spent 3 or 4 hours,with kids from the audience turning the crank,trying to grind a bevel. Mostly just made the existing bevel more shiny.

David Barnett

08-02-2014, 8:06 AM

Hill House chair and the Argyle chair are very incredible everyday objects. I appreciate his goal, being that everyday objects are the interface of everyday life.

Truly so. CRM's vision, simpler and more straightforward than FLW's, say, reflected this more deeply than most others in the the A&C movement.

I enjoying living amongst craftsman built objects. Taking a moment when using an everyday object to contemplate the creative process, consideration for the user, skill and execution of processes is something I find great enjoyment in.

Having, too, grown up surrounded by Craftsman furnishings and objects, I share your sentiments and sensibilities.

Brian—your avatar—it never fails to make me wonder whether the Duke shifted from his characteristic Sasieni to perhaps a Charatan (I have two like that) or even a Barling in those later years—a question likely never to be resolved.

Jim Matthews

08-02-2014, 8:27 AM

When starting out, I took the introductory machine woodworking course at NBSS.

I hated it.

The endless set up, to fine degrees of precision for individual pieces seemed inefficient.
I spent more time dialing in cutterheads than cutting wood.

The approach seemed geared toward making multiple, uniform pieces - where I need cut only one.

Backwards, exactly to my thinking. But it was NBSS, so I tried to keep an open mind.
By the fourth day of ear splitting shop time, I knew this wasn't for me.

The last 5 days were liberating, as I spent less time in the shop and more time visiting the students upstairs.
The most interesting things were being done by hand. It was to be three years before I saw my first
Sellers video, illustrating a method that has proven easy to emulate.

While I understand that the NBSS method prepares students to build furniture for a living,
it's not my aspiration, in the least.

I was flummoxed.

I didn't see any way that I would fit a jointer the size of a battleship in my garage.
The instructor mentioned that he had a 6" Craftsman and lunchbox planer at home, what he could afford.

I felt that the approach of the school, while laudable, was heavy on conservation and light on innovation.
It focused on historical perspective, and as a result, produced what appeared to be fine replicas
for most of the full-time program.

Only when I saw the showcase of graduating students did I see novel approaches.

The instructor reluctantly showed his photo book to me, on the condition that I did not mention it,
and it was breathtaking, inventive and fresh.

He confided that there was no market for "his stuff" and clients kept asking for Hepplethwithe TV cabinets.

It pays the bills, mostly.

Teaching the classes started as a necessity, but he enjoyed the enthusiasm of us Noobs.

I loved that instructor's furniture, but took little from his instruction.

******

I've seen Paul Sellers display book, and it's not to my taste - but his stuff sells.

I'm not a fan of his furniture, but his instruction has made it possible
for me to start and finish projects; out of my basement shop.

Something of a paradox, that.

Brian Holcombe

08-02-2014, 8:47 AM

David Weaver

08-02-2014, 9:10 AM

Since not every woodworker likes him, he must be doing something right. I consider his free Masterclass episodes a community service.

Simon

They are intended as a hook. If there wasn't a pay class, the free one wouldn't be offered. Let's be realistic about it.

In terms of teaching and learning, I'd much rather spend two weeks a year in george wilson's shop with an open agenda, but that's just me. He may be a better teacher than those of us who literally are not doing it for a job, and he may be a better instructor of beginners than someone like george, but if you judge teachers by results, I seriously doubt the results of his students compare to those produced by the apprentices the george has taught.

Let's keep all of this in context when the context is folks teaching beginners. No pieces that are made are going to show up on MJD auctions (or their furniture equivalents) in 50 years. Something that is already occurring with george's work.

David Weaver

08-02-2014, 9:27 AM

When starting out, I took the introductory machine woodworking course at NBSS.

I hated it.

The endless set up, to fine degrees of precision for individual pieces seemed inefficient.
I spent more time dialing in cutterheads than cutting wood.

I had a friend who introduced me to woodworking, and not the NBSS class, but the start was the same otherwise. He was (and still is) a fanatical machine user, but with a bias toward everything being absolutely perfectly fit to a level appropriate for metal. Multi routers, dial indicators on equipment, etc.

Seemed interesting at first but the interest quickly went away - way too much time setting things up. I'll admit that I wouldn't mind having his planer, though, a DC 580 delta with a spiral head and dial indicator depth setup.

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 10:16 AM

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 10:25 AM

Until and unless George does the teaching as Paul is doing, we can't tell if he can match Paul's success. Woodworkers around the world, not just in North America, wrote to Paul to express their gratitude for his "hooks," if you may. I prefer my students to get free "hooks" rather than no hooks. Rob Cosman offers freebies that fit into your definition of hooks, but not Paul. To say Paul offers free videos to hook people into his classes means you have not had a chance to see what he really offers. He offers full episodes that really teach people something, not just a highlight of the end result. No one new to woodworking could cut dovetails with the result Rob showed in his famous youtube vid no matter how many times he or she has watched it. Everything Paul shows in his vids can be copied or duplicated.

Hooks? I hate them, unless they are from Paul. The more the better.

Simon

David Barnett

08-02-2014, 10:30 AM

I should clarify my statement, I mean to say objects having been built by a craftsman, rather than Craftsman era objects. Though I do enjoy much of both. If I had to narrow down a period of furniture that I like the most it would probably be Danish Modern.

As much as I've admired so many Danish Modern chairs, it's the rare one I could actually sit on without catastrophic attrition. Following the '92 Windsor Castle fire, David Powell was commissioned to replace the saddle-seat chairs with their sleek lines and pristine workmanship for which he was known. Those chairs always seemed very Danish to me with their delicately contoured rosewood arms and narrow legs. He kept an exemplar at the Leeds Design Workshops and when John Tierney brought it out during the chair design seminar I attended, I immediately pretended to mindlessly sit on it. Given my prodigious avoirdupois and that neither Powell nor Tierney knew my sense of humor, I probably shaved years from their too-short lives.

I agree, While I like much of FLW's work, it's the work like that of CRM and Earnest William Gimson that really call out to me from the period. They achieve their goal without the heft of FLW. Gimson's cabinets, in particular, have an incredible amount of detail without complicating the design.

Gimson's use of ornament, while intricate in pattern and execution, was always naturalistic, lively and never overwhelming in scale. Although I rather disdained the Byzantine and Baroque in my previous post, I can actually absorb a whopping dose of the ornate, especially in the Belle Époch-Art Nouveau, such as the Carson Pirie Scott entrance ironwork that transfixed me as a child or Louis Sullivan's Owatonna bank features and luminaires.

I saw a cabinet by Dunhill claimed to have been commissioned by him, on ebay, and being a Dunhill, it's gorgeous.

When I go, my 1934 Dunhill Liverpool goes with me.

David Barnett

08-02-2014, 10:37 AM

That was my point: Others before Sellers failed to popularize the simple quick free-hand sharpening method. I didn't nor does Paul say he invented the method. Because of Paul's free youtube vid on the convex sharpening method, many have taken up free-hand sharpening while many of us are still looking for or discussing about a better jig.

Simon

Ah, I see. My bad. Right, I suppose it's more widespread again, at least among those who started out with jigs. Systole and diastole. Freehand sharpening must be quite novel and refreshing to the more recent leisure woodworkers.

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 10:43 AM

Some of Chris' blog posts are quirky and off-point, his style is ... I can go on and on, just like people who want to describe Paul Sellers in a negative way. Again, if a leader is liked (not the same as respected) by all his or her followers, he or she is not the best leader...may not even be a good leader at all.

Both Paul and Chris have had their share of naysayers and that is a good sign (read the above para). We want people like them to lead the current and new generations of hand tool woodworkers, to get them excited about the craft, to understand and learn how they can work wood using techniques Paul or Chris "preaches" as the only right way or as one of the ways and so on. They have their share of conviction and it shows through their personal approaches and styles.

I cut tails first and teach cutting tails first and why should I tell my students to learn cutting pins first as well? They can do so if they want to, but it is not my job to cover everything for them. Am I wrong to say cutting tails first is better? Heck, no. That is my conviction and I don't have to change that to please someone out there who says either way works. I have yet to meet anyone in person who cuts pins first for drawer #1 and then tails first for drawer #2...that's ridiculous unless for showmanship. I don't have shop time to be a fool like that.

To Paul, Chris and whoever is "controversial," I thank them for being so.

Simon
PS I have never been a subscriber of Paul's Masterclasses.

David Barnett

08-02-2014, 10:49 AM

We want people like them to lead the current and new generations of hand tool woodworkers, to get them excited about the craft, to understand and learn how they can work wood using techniques Paul or Chris "preaches" as the only right way or as one of the ways and so on.

Why? What am I not understanding?

ian maybury

08-02-2014, 11:04 AM

Must say I feel the whole deal is something of a storm in a teacup - but one that possibly has a whiff of marketing patter about it. (it's packaged to appeal to a certain mindset)

Sharp isn't when reduced to realities a complicated concept, and sharpening isn't magic. Properly thought through and reduced to essentials there's multiple ways of getting there. Some may suit better than others depending on orientation and needs/habits, but none when properly figured out need take longer than a few minutes. They by definition all reduce to a simple few easy looking steps when delivered by somebody well organised and used to using them. All have to deliver an edge shaped to quite a high degree of precision though, so all are by definition the result of a balancing of many variables, and all are very capable of being messed up.

One bit that's not so quick or straightforward is (again regardless of method) the removal of large amounts of metal without doing harm - to either form a bevel, or to flatten a dodgy back. Funny how the performers tend not to dwell on this arguably much more difficult step. (somehow they always start with a tool that's very close to being there)

It's not rocket science, but subtle issues always arise that inevitably get glossed over in presentations. The requirement as ever is to put in enough practice and figuring out time to gain an understanding of what's truly going on. Videos, teachers and the like can help with inspiration, choice of a broad method (it'd be a very long road if we each had to not just work our way through all options but also optimise them to make a choice), insight/understanding and avoidance of gross error - but they can't do it for us.

There's inevitably many that seek to shortcut/avoid putting this time and thought in, and who will instead be drawn to seeking out the 'magic words', the 'touch of the master's cloak' or whatever. This while potentially valuable is also likey to be a recipe for running into trouble through lack of knowledge/awareness if the effort is not made to make the method our own…..

David Weaver

08-02-2014, 11:19 AM

Hooks? I hate them, unless they are from Paul. The more the better.

Simon

I can't imagine what's wrong with hooks. The business model is proven. If people don't come for something, you give them a little of it. It's only a problem when your hooks are better than the paid stuff.

In terms of students, I think you're missing the point. George's students are his apprentices. His apprentices have or are making a living practicing their craft. He is teaching people on a far different level, a level that's intended for the students to be professionals.

The entire point of my commentary is that once people are in the hobby, it is essential that anyone who wants to go somewhere with the hobby learns to examine what they're doing, understand what they want to produce, and not sweat exactly how they're doing something if there are 5 ways to do it and all of them work fine. If they can't get to the point where they can understand what good design is or whether or not some result is generally better than the other when there are two similar results and a decision to be made, then it's just going to be a troupe of woodworkers who imitate the teacher's sharpening method, etc, and who goes around making things like book rests.

I personally don't have any interest in that stuff, I can figure it out myself. There are probably things paul has classes to make that I've never made, like chairs, but I wouldn't really need his class to learn that, either. There's plenty of information elsewhere that if I wanted to build a chair, I could figure it out.

But my point about George is to suggest that he hasn't yet taught anyone and we don't know how well he can teach is plainly incorrect. George's students are literally making a living doing what they learned under him. It would be a twaddle to compare their works to the works of the average Sellers student. What sellers teaches is easy to find, and in most cases, figure out on your own if you're willing to be the type of person who does such a thing (as most successful craftsmen doing more than just making reproductions of specific pieces over and over are). What Georges apprentices have learned from George is not so easily obtained. If you want to find out what I mean, try really hard to do something in good design, proportion and execution. Make a couple and then send a picture of one you're happy with to George. You will find out just how much you could have improved, and it won't be related to sharpening, spokeshave restoration, etc. All of that stuff is just repackaged material, just like the sharpening techniques (and to suggest that there haven't been other successful free hand methods taught is also incorrect. A superior and more accurate and faster method was described by joel moskowitz years ago, and it wasn't something he owned as a method either, it was something someone taught to him and that he has relayed to everyone).

There's nothing new under the sun.

Steve Voigt

08-02-2014, 11:22 AM

… if a leader is liked (not the same as respected) by all his or her followers, he or she is not the best leader...may not even be a good leader at all.

…We want people like them to lead the current and new generations of hand tool woodworkers, to get them excited about the craft, to understand and learn how they can work wood using techniques Paul or Chris "preaches" as the only right way or as one of the ways and so on. They have their share of conviction and it shows through their personal approaches and styles.

I was going to sit this one out, but you drove me off the bench.

Who on earth is this "we" that wants to be "led"? I'm not looking for a leader, nor do I want to be a follower, still less would I want to be a leader. I want to be inspired by great artists, but I want to do as they do, not sit worshipfully at their feet. And that's to do with design, with creation of aesthetic objects. What Sellers teaches is the techniques of woodworking, and those are anonymous. They are centuries old, and they belong To. No. One. They simply exist, and they are there for the learning by anyone with the drive and determination to do so, no gurus needed.

David Weaver

08-02-2014, 11:27 AM

Next up will be how the paleo diet is different (and of course better) than eating the foods on the paleo diet without calling it the paleo diet.

(r), TM, C, All rights reserved, patented

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 11:42 AM

"The requirement as ever is to put in enough practice and figuring out time to gain an understanding of what's truly going on."

This statement, while true (and is also true for anything that requires learning and training), has its problem: #1 practice makes sense ONLY if it is the correct practice; #2 gaining understanding is not something everyone can do it naturally.

I have seen numerous woodworkers sawing badly...because they don't know how to practice correctly to start with such as holding the saw handle too tightly.

Chopping a mortise by hand looks simple and is indeed simple for those who have acquired the skills and practice, but to tell a newbie to practice and to gain an understanding without the help of a good teacher or good vids, etc. is to guarantee failure (well in 99% of the time). Failure, in turn, turns people away from acquiring the mortising skill.

I have taught students of different backgrounds (some reasonably good in hand tools, some newbies, some classes of mixed skills) and I know how effective Paul is, just from watching his free videos. OK, let's call them hooks, but hooks or not, they are effective training or learning materials. Compare his to many other vids offered free on other online school sites or youtube or other bloggers, it is day and night in quality and effectiveness as a learning tool.

One doesn't have to a fan of Paul, a subscriber of his Masterclasses, or an owner of his DVDs or books to see the difference. Just be an open-minded woodworker. I like Frank Klausz's materials, G. Blackburn's, Rob Cosman's, Ian Kirby's, etc. Every author, known or little known, contributes something positive, it's just how you look at the glass -- half full or half empty.

Simon

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 11:56 AM

"What sellers teaches is easy to find..."

Easy to find is not the same thing as how easy to learn. Otherwise, those who subscribe to Paul's classes must be all fools, throwing money at Paul for no good reasons. Why don't they throw their money at somebody else?

To you, there may be nothing new under the sun. I see new ways of learning and teaching as a result of the convictions of people like Paul Sellers and Chris Schwarz. They may be teaching the old stuff, but unlike people before them who also know the old stuff, they manage to excite people. Chris is not even a master craftsman but he does more to promote the hand tool craft in the 21st c than anyone else. Paul has done the same thing in the last 5 to 10 years. Of course, we have Rob Cosman, Frank Klausz, Roy Underhill, etc. who have helped educate woodworkers. But in terms of moving the mass, we can't discount the influence of Paul Sellers. Look at how many people follow him on the Facebook and how many hits his Youtube vids get, and the crowd he drew when he did the (not really hand-tool) woodshows in the US last year.

Simon

george wilson

08-02-2014, 11:58 AM

People like Simon do not know what I have done since I do not do videos or blogs,or do articles in magazines. I have reasons to not participate that I should not mention here.

I taught shop for 6 years before coming to Williamsburg in 1970. By about 1967 I was already getting into making early instruments like lutes and had made a harpsichord. I started making guitars in 1954.

I taught every day in the shop,where we had sometimes 3000 people a day. My film is essentially a teaching film about making a spinet and a violin. You can watch it on you tube in 6 installments now.

I trained about 22 people during my 16 years in public. One is working in the Smithsonian,another is a conservator in another museum. You have seen Marcus Hansen and Ed Wright perform exacting sawing skills,inlay and veneer work on Roy Underhill's show. Another is a very accomplished violin maker. Another was running the neck making department at Taylor Guitars last thing I heard. All became competent instrument makers,but,due to the difficulty of trying to make a living at it,not all are doing it for a living. Nor are anyone else's students. Most of those are hobby woodworkers.

Before you judge me,Simon,I think you should Google George Wilson harpsichord and see the film on you tube. You do not know me,clearly. Neither does Kim.

Some of you only recognize those who do videos,blogs,or write articles. That is understandable,but those are not the end all and be all. There are others of us out there. And plenty of very talented craftsmen no one ever heard of.

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 12:09 PM

People like Simon do not know what I have done since I do not do videos or blogs.

I taught shop for 6 years before coming to Williamsburg in 1970. By about 1967 I was already getting into making early instruments like lutes and had made a harpsichord.

I taught every day in the shop,where we had sometimes 3000 people a day. My film is essentially a teaching film about making a spinet and a violin. You can watch it on you tube in 6 installments now.

I trained about 22 people during my 16 years in public. One is working in the Smithsonian,another is a conservator in another museum. You have seen Marcus Hansen and Ed Wright perform exacting sawing skills,inlay and veneer work on Roy Underhill's show. Another is a very accomplished violin maker. Another was running the neck making department at Taylor Guitars last thing I heard. All became competent instrument makers,but,due to the difficulty of trying to make a living at it,not all are doing it for a living.

Before you judge me,Simon,I think you should Google George Wilson harpsichord and see the film on you tube. You do not know me,clearly. Neither does Kim.

It is natural that I and many others do not know you, but we are not judging you at all -- good or bad. We are simply sharing our views about Paul Sellers whom tens of thousands know about, because his marketing approach is different from yours. The same why so many people know who Elton John is vs a classical music performer; not that one is better. Your name was brought up as a better means of learning vs Paul Sellers and my only response was I couldn't tell. No judgment there.

However, to put down Paul's effort as gimmicks and hooks for personal gains is totally uncalled for.

Simon

David Barnett

08-02-2014, 12:14 PM

"We want people like them to lead the current and new generations of hand tool woodworkers..."

Who on earth is this "we" that wants to be "led"?

Why am I seeing flashes of deco posters with brave craftsmen, chisels in hands, marching ever forward to build rugged furniture for the masses?

Woodworkers of the World Unite!

Struck me funny, too.

Steve Voigt

08-02-2014, 12:25 PM

Why am I seeing flashes of deco posters with bold woodworkers, tools in hands, marching forward to build rugged furniture for the masses?

Struck me oddly, too.

I think this guy just finished a 5-day intensive course:

294073

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 12:34 PM

You and I are not looking at the craft in the same dimension. Hand tool craft is dying for many reasons (e.g. the school system) and the lack of leadership is one of them. I am not a tool maker and I teach for fun and so financially, it doesn't bother me if hand tool woodworking dies. But anyone who loves the art of woodworking would want the art to continue and here I think we lack leadership. Not that I want you or anyone to be led, but that the art needs good and strong leaders to move it and sustain it. Paul or Chris alone couldn't do it, we need the whole community, not just the passive or quiet teachers in the background, but a force. We need the tool makers and suppliers, big or small, to promote the art (or trade or craft, whatever you call it). We need the publishers, the good writers, the wood shows, the forums, the blogs (good ones, though), etc. to excite the new learners.

That is where leaders and leadership come to the picture and that's what my previous comment was about.

Simon

george wilson

08-02-2014, 12:47 PM

First of all,I have no marketing strategy. I am retired. You have only 75 posts here,so I doubt you have even seen any of my work. And,I don't know what happened to the former FAQ section,where much good work and instruction once was kept.

Secondly,I have said nothing about gimmicks or whatever other words you have mentioned. I have said nothing about Mr. Sellers,one way or the other. I don't watch his videos,or most others,for that matter.

I don't think you have accused me of doing that. I just want it to be clear.

It's just never been my style to write articles or books,or to turn every project I made into an illustrated article,and eventually into a book. But,I have met some who do exactly that. And,it has been surprising how ignorant of things some of them really are,when they get out of their narrow area of expertise. I had one major author of musical instrument making books ask me:"You don't believe in this business of tuning violin tops and backs,do you?" I was astounded. I explained exactly why I DID,and what effect doing it had upon the instrument (elimination of "wolf" notes). Another well known author came to a forum,where he was such an arrogant a$$,he really got every craftsman in Williamsburg thoroughly fed up with him. This was one of those types who makes an article out of every simple end table he makes. His stock in trade is being an excellent photographer. He told me he had been using the same set of planer blades for 20 years!! Sorry,you have to USE them to wear them out!!:)

I do not think hand tool work is dying out. If it were,companies like LV and LN would not be here,nor would Woodcraft Supply,and the several small saw makers and plane makers,or my friend Chris Vesper,etc.. I think it is GROWING.

Just in the area of guitar making; When I was young,there were NO books at all about it,NO suppliers of frets,tuners,pickups,etc.. Darned difficult to find out how to do anything. The first book I ever saw was 1/8" thick,and not a good one. Now,there are books every where,and plenty of suppliers. This is illustrative of the growth of just one special branch of woodworking. I started in 1954,and saw my first guitar book in about 1959.

Brian Holcombe

08-02-2014, 12:48 PM

If you've tried the Egyptian chair or model 45 chair I'll relent, but if you haven't, I would encourage you to. Niels Otto Moller's chairs brought me to Danish but it's Finn Juhl and Wegner that have really kept my attention.

http://shard4.1stdibs.us.com/archivesE/upload/8473/444/8473_1303164563_4.jpg

http://shard4.1stdibs.us.com/archivesE/upload/8903/51_13/org_6/6_I.jpg

I enjoy the metal work of the bauhaus as well, really well executed detailing without being the least bit ornate, both furniture and building facade. I can appreciate heavily ornate, but it really doesn't keep my attention. The ornate ironwork of louis sullivan is really something, he did straddle the line very well. The major works of the Bauhaus have been copied so often they have become commonplace, but the original works are still something incredible to behold.

Haha, Dunhill is one of those companies, I've made my own humidors and would still buy one of theirs in a heartbeat if the right opportunity came along.

David Barnett

08-02-2014, 1:09 PM

Paul or Chris alone couldn't do it, we need the whole community, not just the passive or quiet teachers in the background, but a force. We need the tool makers and suppliers, big or small, to promote the art (or trade or craft, whatever you call it). We need the publishers, the good writers, the wood shows, the forums, the blogs (good ones, though), etc. to excite the new learners.

Wow! Just... wow!

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 1:21 PM

Sorry. I didn't mean that you accuse of Paul of gimmicks or hooks. Those are David's words where your name was brought up. That sentence gives the context to my earlier comment.

Of course, you may be right to think the craft is growing, and if so, Paul and Chris would be happy to hear that. I see it differently because none of the kids I know are interested either in woodworking or furniture, except the Ikea stuff. Most people I teach are in their 40s, 50s and (surprise) 60s. Teenagers, the future consumers of LN and LV, almost none. I won't say this may not change, but given the IT influence that is going to be stronger and not weaker, I am not optimistic.

Ten years ago, I saw a lot of garage sales with hand tools, now few and most of the hand tools now end up in the few second hand hand tool stores, meaning hand tool users are dying but not power tools. I can find tablesaws, routers, drills etc. all the time in my garage sale tours.

I must admit I am half glass empty about the future of the hand tool craft. The economy forces people to be efficient or learn to be so. It is hand-tool only businesses that should worry about their future. Small or one-man players (Bridge City, for example) have their own small followers, but for LN and LV, the math is different. LN is expanding to China for a reason and it wouldn't need to do so if the local market is growing. LV has expanded its line to include premium power tools which is sound business strategy because how many people use hand tools alone?

I hope you are right about the status of growth, but it wouldn't hurt if someone takes the initiative to lead the growth further....

Simon

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 1:36 PM

Yah. For the computers and IT world, the force is in the Silicon Valley. Where is the one for hand tool woodworking? None in sight yet.

george wilson

08-02-2014, 1:52 PM

Gee whiz,Simon! What do you think THIS FORUM is ? and the other fora?And the dozens of books out there?

I will sound like an old fuddy duddy,I'm sure,but if I had had access to this forum,or the scads of other things that young people have these days,I'd have thought I'd died and gone to Heaven!!!!

You are sounding like we need to start spoon feeding people into getting involved in woodworking. I SAY THEY NEED THEIR OWN MOTOR!! I certainly grew up in a vacuum. No money,no support from my parents,who thought my aspirations were foolishness,or just ignored what I was doing. My step father was so old fashioned,he thought children should eat at "second table". To him,kids were worthless and in the way,except to serve him as his mules.

I don't know if I was better off getting my craftsman's education the hard way. Maybe I was.

Anyway,the word is MOTOR. Most do not seem to have one. I don't know what David Barnett thinks,but I'd bet he agrees. I know David Weaver does.

LV is constantly putting big money into developing new hand tools. LN is adding to their line. Of course,it is always good to expand into other lines. I see nothing sinister about LV starting to sell power tools. They sell garden tools,too. And other things.

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 2:19 PM

You are sounding like we need to start spoon feeding

???

I am not interested in feeding anything other than to say that I see the craft differently in terms of its future or growth. Many magazines including woodworking titles have died and the consumer world today is so different that business visionaries (I don't claim to be one of them) have to think differently.

All the craft courses run by the center where I teach are attended by the old people, even though the fees are low. When I go to a tradeshow and all I see is mostly my peers -- white-haired and with money to spend. The younger audience (under 40s) is far and between; I think show organizers should offer free admission to those under 30 or 25.

Just like the views on Paul Sellers, there won't be consensus on the future of hand tool craft. Yours is as good as mine and I consider our views have been fully expressed.

Jim Koepke

08-02-2014, 2:56 PM

Ten years ago, I saw a lot of garage sales with hand tools, now few and most of the hand tools now end up in the few second hand hand tool stores, meaning hand tool users are dying but not power tools. I can find tablesaws, routers, drills etc. all the time in my garage sale tours.

Simon,

You have to get up very early to find hand tools at yard sales. They are usually the first thing to be sold.

My grandson is 12. He is very excited to be able to use my hand tools. His younger brother also shows some interest.

LN is likely expanding their market world wide because of their success, not due to being in dire straights.

Many in the industry do not appeal to me for one reason or another. That doesn't mean I think anyone the fool for taking instruction from them.

My feeling is if it works for a person's particular situation then it is fine.

I sharpen blades in a way that works for me. Some have expressed opinions of my keep it simple approach leaves something to be desired. They tend to forget it works for me.

I like to produce a mortise with a heavy chisel and hard blows from a mallet. Some suggest a bench chisel and tapping with finesse. If it works, what difference does it make to have differing strategies?

I tend to chop the waste from dovetails. Others like to saw it out with a coping saw or a fret saw. There is disagreement on whether a coping saw is better than a fret saw. At the end of the day is there really any significant difference?

Pins first or tails first? It really doesn't matter.

One of my favorite 'how to' woodworking videos is Charles Neil and a 'Five Board Bench.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX4fXbRNqqY

I have no idea how effective he is as an instructor, but he inspired me to make a five board bench and then a six board bench.

There is a lot of information available. Lots more than when my first real woodworking project took me on this path.

I think the hobby and craft is growing. I do not see power tool development from Lee Valley being the death knell you envision.

jtk

george wilson

08-02-2014, 3:40 PM

Sorry if I am misreading you,Simon. I do think it is a lack of motor problem if some don't get off their duffs and get going on something. That is a growing problem,I think. We had so much less entertainment years ago. Only a radio. Miles to town,with no way to get there but walk when my step father was gone on the Coast Guard boat.

Now,everyone has so many ways to occupy their minds. Most kids learn to push buttons all the time,it seems. I heard about one teenage girl who gets straight A's,but texts something like 5000 texts a day. It's pathetic. Or,is it just a different sense of values. She'll probably become a big time politician,or worse,president.

Not my idea of what to do,but it takes all types,I suppose.

Kim Malmberg

08-02-2014, 4:01 PM

OK. Ninetyone replies later this thread has turned from promising into bad. Don't take me wrong. Several replies have been both insightful and good. But at the end of this day, I will sum this up the following way.

- Paul Sellers was born and started woodworking in the wrong age. Hence he cannot be a good woodworker. He really should have known better.
- Chris Schwarz is just a hobbyist and hence he can be disregarded. What he's done for woodworking through his research isn't important.
- Unless you sharpen in a particular manner you are doomed.
- Without the contributions from SMC we wouldn't have woodworking.

George, I don't know you, but I have in fact seen the videos,. All of them. I've googled you for more. And I respect you very much as a woodworker, instrument maker and very knowledgeable person. But respectfully it doesn't mean I respect all of your views. You are not a journeyman, you are not a beginner and I don't think you know how it can feel to be one. In short, you and I live in different woodworking galaxies. I have absolutely no problems with that. But I will reserve the right to my own opinion.
My point is that different people can teach different people - at different levels. You George can teach me very little - because I know to little to be taught by someone as skilled as you. But I can pick up both this and that from Pauls Sellers. And I'm very happy about being able to do it. And I hope to one day be able to learn from you. But I am not there yet. And I would beg you who have actual skills to respect the fact that we are not equal and therefore we need different kind of advice.

I say - live and let live. I don't sharpen well enough to shave my arms. And I don't care to. It's not an absolute view, but it is something I don't feel the need for. I might change my mind if or when I learn more. What I am saying is that even though you don't like something, then so what. Who cares? I'm not trying to become a violin maker or a furniture maker (no irony intended). I'm just trying to enjoy myself. And Paul Sellers helps me do that. He helps me stay interested in woodworking and he helps me keep buying tools and lumber. What's wrong with that? Why do we always have to turn these discussions into fights about who's right or who's wrong?

george wilson

08-02-2014, 4:18 PM

Who's fighting?

David Weaver

08-02-2014, 4:19 PM

Kim, if you're going to extrapolate, you should cite the sources for your conclusions.

It's pretty clear that most of the people who think that the whole viral blogger and instructor thing is overdone have said that it's not an information problem, it's, as george put it, a motor problem.

In terms of your #2, I'd agree with that - what chris schwarz does is give beginners information. In terms of the world of woodworking, and what will be seen as important in the history of woodworking, it doesn't move the needle at all. I don't move the needle either, but I sure hope that before I assume room temperature, I can do a few pieces that would at least lean against it a little bit.

Winton might take possession of #3, but nobody else does, and 1 and 4 are extreme extrapolation. I'm sure winton is just bursting at the fact that I use a single stone to sharpen most things - I don't believe your edges don't shave hair, by the way, as they do easily with a single washita stone.

If you like the product that schwarz sells, and that sellers sells, by all means consume it. It's not necessary to develop consensus to determine that you like it or that you'll consume it.

Some of us love the information that george provides more (and you can literally call george to discuss something that is bugging you if you need serious advice), and plainly put, we get turned off when advice targeted at hobbyists is confused as being equal to top level advice, and a mob of followers arrives to drop stink bombs to that effect (which has happened before when folks elsewhere via twitter or other forums have seen something they don't like). Simple as that.

here is an example of what irritates me. Several years ago, the double iron thing re-emerged, and I wrote an article. I got several private messages from people who rudely told me I have no idea what I'm talking about and cited chris schwarz as the reason why. Strangely, I don't remember anyone citing cosman off of the top of my head, though he said the same thing at the time. Chris had no idea what to do with a cap iron on a plane, thus nobody could. A few months later, he wrote a blog post praising the virtues of the cap iron, as he had just learned (no idea where), and I got a PM from someone (not one of the original people who messaged me) giving me some friendly advice that if I wanted to learn how to use a cap iron, I should read Chris's blog or maybe take a course.

Now, Sellers has moved the needle enough with actual work for several decades that if someone would've substituted sellers instead, I probably would've gone to the effort to contact Paul to discuss it. But of all of the amateur bloggers, I really have no interest in hearing their latest pearls of wisdom, the same way I wouldn't seek a 30 handicapper to learn to hit a high draw reliably.

David Barnett

08-02-2014, 4:39 PM

Yah. For the computers and IT world, the force is in the Silicon Valley. Where is the one for hand tool woodworking? None in sight yet.

True. If nothing else I wish I had your passion, Simon, even if our visions differ. Perhaps I'm just too jaded in my dotage, or maybe I just think things will work themselves out—market forces, supply & demand. Perhaps we're collectively nearing or past a point of no return. Either way, I'm not so sure I see hand tool woodworking as needing saving, a movement, with leaders and crusaders, but then I am feeling old lately.

"Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?"

Simon MacGowen

08-02-2014, 4:47 PM

[QUOTE=David Weaver But of all of the amateur bloggers, I really have no interest in hearing their latest pearls of wisdom, .[/QUOTE]

Agreed...some of these bloggers, without knowing it, are hurting the education of the beginners. At least several students told me they got turned off because of the overflooding of blog posts. My answer? "That is why you are here, learning through hands on stuff and not reading blogs."

If anything, the internet is both good and bad for the craft.

Simon

Kim Malmberg

08-02-2014, 5:28 PM

Who's fighting?

George. You just told me I am unaware of your skills. So please, don't tell me you didn't want to point that out. I was not trying to say that unless you have a blog or video diary or even an woodworking class or all of them together, you are not worth the time of day. I wasn't implying that a accomplished instrument maker wouldn't know why he or she dos. Of course they do know. And I will happily admit that I am a bottom feeder in that context. But if we are exchanging views then please let us exchange views without prejudice.

Let me say this. I am a journalist since 25 years. I have done just about everything a journalist can do. I've written stories, taken photographs, designed pages, decided what story goes where, worked with editorial IT, been a consultant and trainer of editorial systems and workflows. I've trained people from Africa to Europe, from Kenya to Ireland, the UK and the north of Finland. I am not a native English speaker, so whenever I trained people outside my country I needed more than just managing the language. I had to learn the culture and adopt my training accordingly. Furthermore I've been forced to adopt my training to those who knows the least, because a journalist who cannot file a story is a journalist wasting her or his wages. So I do know something about how to preach the gospel depending on the audience. And I have learned that different audiences require different techniques. And I am able to see that various authorities are capable of reaching various audiences. Which is fine. What I dislike is the notion that everyone should work at the same level, because the more skilled ones thinks their level is the right level for everyone.

Candidly: I have nothing else than the utmost admiration for those of you who know more than I do. And I want to emphasize this. I am not a person seeking conflict. but I do want the skilled ones to recognize that there are a good few of uses who knows bugger all and who cares dearly about the few teachers who are dedicated to teaching us.

Kim Malmberg

08-02-2014, 5:40 PM

Now, Sellers has moved the needle enough with actual work for several decades that if someone would've substituted sellers instead, I probably would've gone to the effort to contact Paul to discuss it. But of all of the amateur bloggers, I really have no interest in hearing their latest pearls of wisdom, the same way I wouldn't seek a 30 handicapper to learn to hit a high draw reliably.

David, I'm accomplished enough to tell you how to hit a high draw or stinger, cut or low fade. But I have a feeling you would want someone more accomplished to tell you, because I'm a no name and not a real golf coach. And I take no offense, simply because I am just that.

Still, why is it so hard to accept that different people do different things for different people? I wouldn't trust you to be my coach on the golf course either. But would that stop you from trying to hit all of those shots or even refrain from those shots if you had a better game plan yourself.

steven c newman

08-02-2014, 6:19 PM

Maybe I am an exception here? I do look in on a few vids, when I get bored. Even dial up a few of norm Abrams' stuff. I came from a family of both mechanics, and House Builder carpenters. One could merely take your car or truck for a short drive, come back and tell EXACTLY what was wrong, and knew how to fix it back up. Another could, and did, build not only his own house, but a few others, too. Maybe i picked up a FEW skills along the way.

Re; Sellers. I have used his "trick" to make simple Raised panels. I modified it somewhat to fit what I was doing. He provided the idea, and I used it, after fitting it to what I use, and build. Watched his bench build....and built something different. Mine fit in the workspace ( VERY SMALL ) a little bit better. Sharpening? I have my own ways, based on what I have to work with. Will a plane of mine shave a hair off a bald head? No. That is not what I need out of my planes. I want to get to that point as fast as the planes will get me there. But, a see-through shaving is worthless until the final pass, anyway.

Picked up a couple plough/rebate planes, and wanted to learn HOW to grip, and use them. Looked up a few vids, took a few notes, compare to see what was repeated in each, and adopted that to the planes I had.

So, instead of going out, and buying a bunch of books, going to a bunch of classes, and such, I do the research as best i can via the internet. With a very LARGE grain of salt, of course. "Lock your arms to hold the iron thusly, and move it across the stone like this.." Hmmm, what IF one can not "lock" thier arms into that pose? Then what? "You are doomed to dullness" Nah, just adapt, adjust, and overcome. Lack of "Good Lumber" ?? Recycle, Reclaim, reuse. One merely has to be flexiable in what they do. Make a living at this? BTDT, got burned out doing it. It will stay a FUN Hobby, enough to keep me out of the local Taverns. So, for Sellers and all others doing the Vid-blog out there, it is just research to me, or when I get bored. Not worth fighting about whose "Gospel" is the correct path. Too many REAL wars out there doing that....

David Weaver

08-02-2014, 6:27 PM

David, I'm accomplished enough to tell you how to hit a high draw or stinger, cut or low fade. But I have a feeling you would want someone more accomplished to tell you, because I'm a no name and not a real golf coach. And I take no offense, simply because I am just that.

Still, why is it so hard to accept that different people do different things for different people? I wouldn't trust you to be my coach on the golf course either. But would that stop you from trying to hit all of those shots or even refrain from those shots if you had a better game plan yourself.

Kim, I can already hit all of those, it was just a comment.

Clearly different people do different things for other folks, like I said, if you like sellers and schwarz, then by all means be a consumer.

John Powers

08-02-2014, 9:15 PM

Whadya say we put a fork in this Paul Sellers thing. you like him, you hate him. It's getting old as my friends from the south would say.

Jim Koepke

08-02-2014, 9:17 PM

But at the end of this day, I will sum this up the following way.

- Paul Sellers was born and started woodworking in the wrong age. Hence he cannot be a good woodworker. He really should have known better.
- Chris Schwarz is just a hobbyist and hence he can be disregarded. What he's done for woodworking through his research isn't important.
- Unless you sharpen in a particular manner you are doomed.
- Without the contributions from SMC we wouldn't have woodworking.

There must be something gained in the translation and then lost again on the way back. The statements above seem to be amplified well beyond any intent I have detected.

Most of what I see amounts to people saying either Paul Sellers is a fantastic resource or others saying he isn't their cup of tea. I would be hard pressed to find much that I have learned from watching Mr. Sellers' videos.

On the other hand a few things were learned from the folksy rambling style of Charles Neil. I could see how some would be driven bonkers listening to his 'Five Board Bench' video. For me it was easy to watch broken up into different times while I was eating a meal.

Chris Schwarz is a professional/writer/researcher/teacher in the field of woodworking. His style may upset others, but that kind of stuff happens. I read him on a regular basis as I find little bits of information that are new to me even if they were old to my grandfather. His evangelistic nature toward the craft may bother some.

I am not sure what you mean about sharpening. Most here have worked with more than one method and use what works for them or make due with what is on hand.

I have learned many things by reading the posts on SMC. I do not know of anyone who thinks the past, present or future of woodworking depends on SMC.

My hope is the SMC business plan is structured in such a way to allow its survival for another century or two. I hope my heirs can visit these pages and learn about the hobby.

jtk

ian maybury

08-02-2014, 10:19 PM

:) It's fairly clear that Paul S certainly gets our attention anyway - which with his output perhaps explains the high profile he has generated.

For what it's worth it seems that the differences in perception arise not so much out of the substance of what he teaches (and he's pretty clearly a very experienced pair of woodworking hands - i enjoy and have learned from his videos) as his woodworking and teaching style.

He has i think a slightly flippant and minimalist way of presenting and doing - which may make stuff seem easy and inconsequential. Which plays well to some, and puts others off.

I guess as before though that regardless of how it's presented that the content of a given woodworking task is largely what it is - and there's not much that's new, and no escape from practical realities. The factor that makes the difference between our making very heavy weather of it, or its seeming quick and easy comes down to our putting in the time needed to refine the technique, and getting enough practice so that it becomes second nature. With mindset in the mix too. Learning to work with speed and economy is a key part of the game - but as everything else this tends to be fairly hard won.

It seems unlikely that the methods taught by anybody can be a substitute for this grunt work - no matter how easy they make it seem on video. The realisation that a style like Paul's can trigger however is that we don't have to sweat it - that we can afford to lighten up.

It brings to mind a quote in a marketing e-mail from David Savage in the UK last week regarding time spent early in his career with Alan Peters - which is around the same point, and which shows that we're not the only ones that struggle to find balance on the matter: 'I could say that Alan was patient and kind which he was especially with someone he felt was worth the effort. But to be honest he could be abrasive and short tempered. He had little time for incompetence and more than once told me "to stop faffing about, cut it once then leave it'

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 12:35 AM

About loosing posts just about the time you are previewing or posting it . . .
have you ever had a prompt that says “Your TOKEN has timed out ?
I didn’t even know I had a token. Thanks for the token !
Kind of an “Indian Giver” taking it a way again like that.

When will I ever learn to never, EVER compose a post in the chat room but to do it first in my word processor.

I replied to this Sellers thread late last night and had it do that. :rolleyes: Of course what I was saying was earth shatteringly brilliant, life changing for the reader and peerless :p but I have said it all before and am getting tired of listening to my head rattle . . .
(my Mom used to say that occasionally about people who talked too much “Oh they talk just to hear their head rattle”.)
So I couldn’t bring myself to retype it all.
Basically I said :

Delete
hey . . . It's threre. I went back to read some things I missed and viola.
As Mr. Young Guy at work says “I need a nap”.

ian maybury

08-03-2014, 6:47 AM

It's never hapened to me Winton. ;) (not!)

More seriously. Lightness of touch in woodworking is important. It's very possible to work ourselves into a state of mental intensity where the fear of making a mistake makes it impossible to work freely and easily - to access our true ability. We end up mistake prone, and lose sight of the big picture.

Flow comes after practice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) The Zen approach to archery, swordsmanship, art and the like (adopted by lots of tennis, golf and other sports and skills coaches) teaches that once we have been shown more or less correct technique that we should just shoot (practice, practice and more practice) with a light intention to hit the target - without worrying about missing. That eventually our bodily and other intelligences figure it out, body memory takes over and we become nonchalantly expert with no need to think about what we are doing.

Sweating it (actually trying to force a result before the skill is truly learned) just results in the thinking mind getting in the way…

Woodworking is no different - this is what the very experienced guys demonstrate....

Jim Matthews

08-03-2014, 8:17 AM

David Savage in the UK last week regarding time spent early in his career with Alan Peters - which is around the same point, and which shows that we're not the only ones that struggle to find balance on the matter: 'I could say that Alan was patient and kind which he was especially with someone he felt was worth the effort. But to be honest he could be abrasive and short tempered. He had little time for incompetence and more than once told me "to stop faffing about, cut it once then leave it'

That sounds right.

I think of this as a presentation by a conservator of proven methods.
There's little opportunity for nuance in a video demonstration.

In the course work, it was made very clear how different our (paid)
instruction was from that of an apprentice.

It was iterated that there were other methods that worked,
but for the purposes of getting twelve people through 9 days
of projects, we must agree to follow one method for the duration.

There were asides that had me bristling, but I can't fault the course or
style in which things were presented.

I managed to retain a good deal of it, and that's better than my average.

I would agree with others here that there's no substitute for making sawdust.
Following Mr. Sellers' methods (or any others) merely provides a starting point.

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 1:29 PM

Flow
Got It
You mean like the feeling I get (during one of my “sharpening breaks” from the shop) when I go to the refrigerator .
It is there that I feel “In The Zone” !
Movement just comes naturally.
Time seems to slow down.
My focus is kind of a tunnel of concentration were all other concerns magically drop away.
It’s very rewarding . . . . (especially if Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer has just done a grocery run).
I don’t want to say it comes to me naturally, there is a certain amount of dedicated practice on an almost daily basis. I don’t want to loose my edge (which makes tomato and cucumber slicing for sandwiches a bit tedious).
On days when I don’t train it is almost like going without air or water.

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 2:51 PM

Life is soooo inexplicable
or
bent
actually
I (we) are looking out our front window at a camel.
Well an ad on a moving truck actually
There is a U-FixIt (I mean U-Haul) across the street with these advert. slogans etc., on it
Venture across Canada
Yukon
In the middle of it all is a huge face of a camel.
and a camel train bellow that so you know it is a camel Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer wanted me to point that out.

This, apparently, appears to be a Polar Camel then.
It is also . . . white.
Is this the rare albino polar camel or the more common brown eyed polar camel?

Apparently the “artist” and U-Fixit and the ad company do not realize there are actually no native, indigenous, wild pack forming. . . . I can hardly type the words . . .camels in Canada.

I . . . mean . . . are there ? George . . . you used to run tours in Alaska on camel back didn’t you ?

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 2:56 PM

Oh wait . . . there is movement in the bush . . .
Q has unsheathed her bird watching monocular and is on a reconnaissance to investigate “the fine print (http://www.uhaul.com/SuperGraphics/266/Venture-Across-America-and-Canada-Modern/Yukon)”.

and this (http://www.uhaul.com/SuperGraphics/266/10/Venture-Across-America-and-Canada-Modern/Yukon/Camel-Unearthed-From-High-Arctic)

Just as the monocular has saved Q and I from scientific embarrassment . . .
so too
the microscope may save the round bevelers.
I rest my lens.

If it's doesn't save a single soul we had fun reading the ad, being beside our selves, laughing and making up this post.

Chuck Hart

08-03-2014, 3:54 PM

I subscribe to his master class videos it's $15.00 A MONTH I get a minimum of 4 videos but more often than not he puts out other stuff besides the stuff he is working on. Unlike some other video people who do hundreds of videos for a project his are usually less than 10. I really enjoy his teaching method but that is probably because I am not a 3e0 year veteran of woodworking. Yes some of his stuff is simple but he can do more with a No. 4 plane than anyone else I've seen. He puts out a lot of free stuff also.

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 3:58 PM

1934 Dunhill Liverpool
David Barnett,
Will you give me (us) a link or a photo ?
I don't know what that is.
I searched but nada. A Dunhill lighter . . .

Brian Holcombe

08-03-2014, 4:33 PM

Winton, he's talking about a pipe. This is a newer liverpool than David is talking about it, but to get a rough idea.

http://www.alpascia.com/img/Dunhill-Root-Briar-DR-1-star-Liverpool-pipe-393-Dunhill-393-Alpascia-img-70858-w580-h234.jpg

This is the humidor I was talking about;

http://i.ebayimg.com/24/!CDtRlRwEWk~$(KGrHqJ,!i4E0FlSuh8tBNPeovbP(!~~_12.J PG

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 4:41 PM

One is working in the Smithsonian

George,
Or as someone mistyped earlier THE George . . . (when also talking about The Duke). Did he mean John Wayne ?

anyway . . .

the Smithsonian
Oh man, I am so jealous I am peeing.
That KIND of thing is what I should have done. I am no great woodworker, designer, artist . . . but I sure as heck know how to bring many trades together (in my brain and hands) to fix / preserve stuff. I love properly caring for high end objects. It was what I was born to do.

On that note I have never understood and it drives me crazy when I see world class performers, every time (usually) outside of orchestral music, with their beat to death and scratched up instruments with hand smudges all over them performing on a recorded format.

Does it take SOOOOOooooo much to put some finish on scratches, replace damaged woodwork ? ? ?
Hell . . . at least give the finish a wipe with a cloth with a little soap and water on it ?
Anyway . . . George now that I know about your apprentices, and if I were twenty years younger, and you were twenty years younger.
I would be embarrassing myself by standing outside your gate in the rain and snow until you got me up to speed if for no other reason than to get rid of me.

Course there's that high powered rifle, . . . I hadn't thought of that . . .
No matter . . .
I would have been a rock that couldn't be moved.

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 4:54 PM

he's talking about a pipe.

aaaAAAAhhhHHH
My Dad would have gave me dope slap.
He was a pipe and tobacco man.

Ha, ha I was picturing a desk secretary (and not the kind with silk stockings)(although . . . she would make the trip to Valhalla less tiresome).

PS: thanks for humidor photo as well. This is a good thread that I am still enjoying and catching up on. Despite all the twaddle about sharpening.

Brian Holcombe

08-03-2014, 4:58 PM

Hah!

LOL, those are the best types of desk secretaries.

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 5:06 PM

There are others of us out there. And plenty of very talented craftsmen no one ever heard of.

Fine Woodworking Magazine ! ! !
Hello ! ! !
Anybody home ? ! ? ! ? ???

That is what I keep telling them. Do they get off their keesters and do some interviews that would be interesting and profitable to all ?

I'm deeeeeeeepressssssssssssed . . .

David Barnett

08-03-2014, 5:31 PM

David Barnett,
Will you give me (us) a link or a photo ?
I don't know what that is.
I searched but nada. A Dunhill lighter . . .

Sure, Winton.

294123

My Joel Sasieni Prince is above with my Dunhill Liverpool below.

Sleekly profiled English pipes favored by the Royals and upper classes of the era. Charatans were also held in much esteem—favorites in my collection, as well. Notice the slight forward cant of the smallish bowls and long delicate pencil shanks.

Newer Liverpools (http://www.danishpipeshop.com/product.asp?product=3672#.U96l39K7ZQC) are almost clunky by comparison.

In Brian's avatar, Windsor appears to be smoking what to me appears to be a Charatan pot with a similar pencil shank, but it's hard to say for certain.

ian maybury

08-03-2014, 5:41 PM

You guys might like this page - our local pipe manufacturing operation. They make some very fancy models : http://www.peterson.ie/c/1/pipes

David Barnett

08-03-2014, 5:44 PM

Apparently the “artist” and U-Fixit and the ad company do not realize there are actually no native, indigenous, wild pack forming. . . . I can hardly type the words . . .camels in Canada.

I . . . mean . . . are there ?

Well... camels actually originated in North America 45 to 50 million years ago, if one wants to be all persnickety, despite their modern association with the Levant and Northern Africa.

Don't you just love where these longish threads can go?

David Barnett

08-03-2014, 6:04 PM

Winton, he's talking about a pipe. This is a newer liverpool than David is talking about it, but to get a rough idea.

Ah, a modern Liverpool in Root finish. Mine's in Bruyere, as pictured in my later reply to Winton.

294130

Upper—Sasieni Prince (early mid 1900s)
Bottom—Dunhill Liverpool (1934)

The comparison of profiles between the two pictures, yours and mine, makes my point about the preference for less large bowls and sleeker forms of the 1930s, when the original pipemakers were more directly involved. The briar quality in the earlier pipes was finer, too—all my Dunhills, Comoys, Barlings, Charatans, Sasienis were my smokers through the 1990s, not just collectible objets d'art.

Stunning humidor, by the way.

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 6:29 PM

Well I went to my magazine tear out files to get a photo of Kristina Madsen and the article on the Cartouche Award Winner Fred Stanley.
In the trek I came across a few other things/people that kind of tied together, or not.
Anyway here they are and what I have to say about them.

Since David Powell came up here are a couple photos about him. The first and the last photos.
I had forgotten Kristina Madsen not only studied with him but inherited his tool cabinet.

Some where here on SawMill I read "a woodworker living with his / her work". Interestingly enough Kristina says she loves making what she does and looking at it and all but she can’t really have it in her living space. Wants a quieter ambiance or some such.

I just had to put up a photo of Paul Shurch. I think what he does is breath taking and he traveled to the ends of the universe to learn what he does.

What ever happened to Cartouche Award Winner Fred Stanley ? Time for a follow up in-depth article guys. (FWW) Instead of a page in the back of the mag.

Yep David Powell left his mark . . .

george wilson

08-03-2014, 6:38 PM

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 6:57 PM

BADGES (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdZKCh6RsU)

QUOTE]Who on earth is this "we" that wants to be "led"?[/QUOTE]

Oh . . . I don't know . . . I suppose I don't NEED people to look up to. Like Captain Kirk, Marty Feldman, David Lister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Lister), there are so many greats . . .

But it helps me to have a Klausz or a Maloof in the back of my mind. Maloof was world renowned, people were paying him $30,000 for a rocking chair and begging him to just spend the rest of his life making furniture just for their personal homes.

I like to recall he still made time to hear an "insignificant" person's story (true) that they loved his work but could never afford it. Ever.
He then some times made sure they had what they loved. Or he would drive off to a good customer's house just to wash and wax (Maloof wax) their table etc. once a year or so.

Doesn't hurt to have that kind of Leadership.

Jim Koepke

08-03-2014, 6:59 PM

From their response,it was clear they thought the pictures were too much trouble to download.

Maybe they are on a dial up 300 baud modem.

jtk

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 8:01 PM

My grandson is 12. He is very excited to be able to use my hand tools. His younger brother also shows some interest.

That’s a breath of fresh air.
I was going to say I know of no one who is interested in fine wood that is young, an up and coming craftsperson, or a buyer. I used to travel in a higher society of customers but still.

I am out here in The Wild Wild West but I can almost throw a rock and hit The Broadmoor (http://www.broadmoor.com)

PS: I have done fine art custom bronze foundry work for the New "Wing" of the Broadmoor Hotel. That has been more than a decade ago now.

Not single handedly of course I was part of a team. I did all of the ceramic shell castings and some wax positive mold work and some TIG welding.

Jim Koepke

08-03-2014, 8:19 PM

That’s a breath of fresh air.
I was going to say I know of no one who is interested in fine wood that is young, an up and coming craftsperson

He likes drawing what I would call comic figures.

I suggested he draw one and I would show him how to put it on wood. When he came out to the shop he didn't bring a picture and said he wanted to just use some of my carving tools. He knew what he wanted. He used a veiner like a pencil and went from their. I think he has potential. I will consider buying him a carving set. He does live pretty far away and doesn't have the same wood supportive atmosphere at home. His grandfather that lives down near him has a shop but never uses it. His dad has a 'work bench' but also never uses it.

I think he will have to get a little assertive to start using his dad's bench or make a small carving station of his own.

jtk

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 8:32 PM

- Unless you sharpen in a particular manner you are doomed.

well . . . that one's true anyway. :eek:

I don't sharpen well enough to shave my arms.

see :)

So . . . I’m a little unclear Sellers helped you ? = shave sharp . . .
. . . or didn’t help you ?

Actually shave sharp isn’t all that sharp and certainly is NO kind of indicator of a decent plane blade edge configuration in its self.

Though a decent plane blade edge configuration will most certainly cause arm hair to leap off your arm and run away to hide in the shadows. That’s just one of the fun but unimportant aspects of it.

he helps me keep buying tools and lumber.

If you enjoy that could I have your credit card information?
I think this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kiNJcDG4E0).

Why do we always have to turn these discussions into fights about who's right or who's wrong?

Because it’s fun ?

Winton Applegate

08-03-2014, 8:46 PM

Winton might take possession of #3, but nobody else does
Thank you Clark, I appreciate that. :p

Pat Barry

08-04-2014, 7:25 PM

My wife sent them (Fine Woodworking) several 8x10" color pictures of my pieces by email years ago. She called them to see if they got them. From their response,it was clear they thought the pictures were too much trouble to download. Leonard Lee did remark that it took a very long time to download the same pictures I sent him.

I sort of gave up on them. I suppose they expect me to make them a set of glossies and mail them to them? Meanwhile,they can keep on putting up some of the silly looking tools they seem to manage to process.
Were the pictures intended to be presented in the Readers Work (or whatever they call it) section of the magazine? Were they pictures of tools? Was their much metal work involved? I really can't see the size of the download being any factor whatsoever, I don't think that was the issue, it may just have been that they had no immediate interest in publishing your work at the time. Much of their readers work is furniture type things and I don't see your work fitting in there. Your work would be best served by the Master Class section of their magazine.

Mike Olson

08-04-2014, 9:30 PM

i'm not a huge fan of Paul's because I watch YouTube videos for the Edutainment value. His videos feel more like i'm in a classroom. "i never liked school" While the majority of the YouTube channels I watch feel more like hanging out with a buddy while he shows you something neat.

granted, i'm sure my videos are pretty dry since I am too so I probably don't have the right to complain too much.

David Weaver

08-04-2014, 9:42 PM

Were the pictures intended to be presented in the Readers Work (or whatever they call it) section of the magazine? Were they pictures of tools? Was their much metal work involved? I really can't see the size of the download being any factor whatsoever, I don't think that was the issue, it may just have been that they had no immediate interest in publishing your work at the time. Much of their readers work is furniture type things and I don't see your work fitting in there. Your work would be best served by the Master Class section of their magazine.

Years ago, around the year 2000 or a little after, I worked for a company that limited our email inboxes to 250 megabytes, and if a single message was bigger than 5, the server wouldn't dispense it to us until overnight. We often worked with data files that were larger than that, and to be allowed to use any file sharing, we had to have special permission.

If it was a dozen or so years ago, taunton could've very well hamstrung them if george's wife sent high quality pictures. i haven't ever seen any of georges work that they wouldn't fall over themselves about, and some of the reader submitted work that was submitted 10 or 20 years ago was pretty spectacular.

Pat Barry

08-04-2014, 9:58 PM

When starting out, I took the introductory machine woodworking course at NBSS.

I hated it. ...

... But it was NBSS, so I tried to keep an open mind.
By the fourth day of ear splitting shop time, I knew this wasn't for me.

The last 5 days were liberating, as I spent less time in the shop ...
While I understand that the NBSS method prepares students to build furniture for a living,
it's not my aspiration, in the least.

I was flummoxed.

I felt that the approach of the school, while laudable, was heavy on conservation and light on innovation.
It focused on historical perspective, and as a result, produced what appeared to be fine replicas
for most of the full-time program.

Only when I saw the showcase of graduating students did I see novel approaches.

.

Jim, I'm a bit flummoxed my self. You signed up for an introductory class in machine woodworking, went for a total of 4 days, then apparently gave up and spent the balance of your class time wandering around, and then you seek to categorize a respected school as non-innovative? Help me understand - how innovative did you expect their training on learning the jointer was going to be in an introductory course?

Pat Barry

08-04-2014, 10:06 PM

Years ago, around the year 2000 or a little after, I worked for a company that limited our email inboxes to 250 megabytes, and if a single message was bigger than 5, the server wouldn't dispense it to us until overnight. We often worked with data files that were larger than that, and to be allowed to use any file sharing, we had to have special permission.

If it was a dozen or so years ago, taunton could've very well hamstrung them if george's wife sent high quality pictures. i haven't ever seen any of georges work that they wouldn't fall over themselves about, and some of the reader submitted work that was submitted 10 or 20 years ago was pretty spectacular.
It is inconceivable (to me) that George's wife could send pictures that FWW couldn't open

David Weaver

08-04-2014, 10:13 PM

It sounds like they couldn't retrieve them from email, as opposed to being unable to open them. Who knows what format they were in? I know if I were working for a magazine and didn't care about my job that much, and if I had to wait to get the pictures, I'd just pick the best of what I already had on hand for the month and fill the article obligation.

If george's wife sent 5 or 10 megabyte pictures, 10 or 15 years ago, and they were not on something like business cable, I don't see what's so inconceivable.

george wilson

08-05-2014, 7:20 AM

They were probably too large to conveinently download. I sent some of the same pictures to Leonard Lee. As said,he said they took forever to download,but he did .

My pictures would have fit in with the special "Tools made by readers" magazine they started sending out.

Pat Barry

08-05-2014, 12:41 PM

George,
I think it would be worth trying again. Here is guidance from their website.
Start with a proposal If you'd like to write an article for Fine Woodworking, start by sending us a proposal. Summarize your topic and point of view in a few paragraphs that outline the material you plan to cover in the article. Include a paragraph about yourself and your woodworking background. The better the quality of the visual information you can supply -- both photographs and drawings of work in progress -- the better we will be able to appreciate your ideas. But don't worry if the images are not publishable quality; they will be re-shot or re-drawn professionally if we decide to publish your article. Finally, please include a self-addressed stamped envelope large enough to hold all the materials you send. We'll take good care of everything, and we'll return it all at the appropriate time.
Once we've received your proposal, we'll send you a letter to acknowledge its arrival. You'll hear from us again within a month or two, with a decision about whether we want you to go ahead with the article. If we do, a staff editor will be assigned to work with you, and this editor will be your primary contact with the magazine. You and the editor will discuss and agree on an outline for the article, as well as a deadline for a first draft. Remember, though, that final acceptance of your article depends on whether we can use your manuscript.

David Weaver

08-05-2014, 1:39 PM

George can rebut, but I can't imagine it's worth his time any longer. They know who he is, and have him in videos on their web page (FWW does) where he discusses plane making (I think). Getting published in the magazine doesn't have the same prestige it used to, either.

dan sherman

08-14-2014, 6:03 PM

My take:

I follow Sellers on YouTube, and i can take him or leave him. I really like some of his stuff, and other stuff annoys the crap out of me.

His comments on bench height for example, are at best overly simplistic. You can't base bench height purely on your height, as several things are actually more important.

1. What type of tools you use - Someone who uses woodies will probably like a lower bench than someone who uses metal planes, as woodies are much higher.
2. Type of work - Someone who uses the bench to prepare stock will most likely want a different height than someone who only uses the bench while working on joinery.
2. Your body proportions - Two people of the exact same height can have drastically different arm & leg lengths and that effects how high the bench should be.
3. personal preference - Some people Simply prefer a bench that is higher or lower for any number of reasons that can't be easily quantified.

Simon MacGowen

08-14-2014, 6:53 PM

Speaking of benches, few could match Paul Sellers' creativity with small things or techniques such as his latest blog on adding notches or V-channels to the benches. This opinionated British teacher is liked as well as hated (or disliked, if hate is too strong a word) by a lot of people for a good reason.

Simon

lowell holmes

08-14-2014, 7:25 PM

Daniel Rode

08-14-2014, 8:30 PM

IMO, there is no right answer; no single universal bench height formula. The proper bench height has much to do with what type of work you intend to do at the bench and even which tools. If one want to optimize bench height for planing, it's going to be pretty low for sawing and chisel work and vice versa. If you use wooden planes, an even lower height would be ideal but now makes it less well suited for saw and chisel work. Some height in the middle might seem like a good compromise or it might seem poorly suited to all tasks.

Since I do much of the tedious rough dimensioning with machines, I've set my bench on the tall side to favor joinery type tasks. I built a moxon vice but I rarely use it except for dovetails and even then, only if they are too wide for my face vice.

That's why the old standard I follow is to stand at the bench, arms at your side, and make your bench knuckle high. It will save your back.

Pat Barry

08-14-2014, 8:49 PM

IMO, there is no right answer; no single universal bench height formula. The proper bench height has much to do with what type of work you intend to do at the bench and even which tools. If one want to optimize bench height for planing, it's going to be pretty low for sawing and chisel work and vice versa. If you use wooden planes, an even lower height would be ideal but now makes it less well suited for saw and chisel work. Some height in the middle might seem like a good compromise or it might seem poorly suited to all tasks.

Since I do much of the tedious rough dimensioning with machines, I've set my bench on the tall side to favor joinery type tasks. I built a moxon vice but I rarely use it except for dovetails and even then, only if they are too wide for my face vice.
The ideal bench would be like the benches at work that have height adjustment. Make them comfortable for whatever task you need them for. Hydraulic would be very nice. Maybe someone like Winton could rig up something like the kids use to bounce their cars up and down.

Matthew N. Masail

08-15-2014, 2:34 AM

I recall rob cosmon showing how he has a board hinged to his legs the he can easily use to make his bench higher.

Matthew N. Masail

08-15-2014, 5:12 AM

The ideal bench would be like the benches at work that have height adjustment. Make them comfortable for whatever task you need them for. Hydraulic would be very nice. Maybe someone like Winton could rig up something like the kids use to bounce their cars up and down.

If someone acually made a hydraulic adjustable WOODWORKING bench I'd probably call it a sad day to woodworking history. this because I find, at least for my self, that the more down to earth I get in the shop the more "real" my woodworking gets.

Tony Zaffuto

08-15-2014, 7:22 AM

Fact of the matter is, there exists no "cookie cutter" bench that will serve all aspects perfectly. Height of the bench is determined by our own height, plus the tasks we are doing. There are "appliances" we can use to make a single bench better (auxiliary Moxon vise for cutting dovetails, free-standing sawbench built a knee height easier knockdown sawing) and so forth.

Build you bench and start using it. If you're having workholding issues, buy Robert Wearing's book on woodworking devices - plenty of simple items shown that will make any bench a better bench. Can't find a Wearing book? I believe Lee Valley offers many commercial items that will do the same.

Mel Fulks

08-15-2014, 11:43 AM

Pat, I have an old post that covers the two constant bench concerns: top thickness and bench height. 24 inch thick brazillian rosewood top mounted on old car lift. Because of the extreme thickness it is sometime necessary to stand in the grease pit.

george wilson

08-15-2014, 11:59 AM

Knuckle high is how high you want your anvil to be.For me that is about 34"

Greg Portland

08-16-2014, 12:58 PM

The ideal bench would be like the benches at work that have height adjustment. Make them comfortable for whatever task you need them for. Hydraulic would be very nice. Maybe someone like Winton could rig up something like the kids use to bounce their cars up and down.
I've seen DIY benches that use linear actuators for height adjustment (clamps were used to lock it in place). The thinking was that they could use the optimal bench height for each operation.

Adam Cruea

08-18-2014, 1:51 PM

Hrm, so Schwarz doesn't like us? Got a cold reception here?

Why would that be? The same reason someone (I think it was Weaver) tore Cosman a new one because he was basically just hocking Woodriver and talking out his butt?

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 2:01 PM

I think the last time I caused a stink was when the blades were described as doing something other ones don't, and getting a little anal retentive about just how much wear an unhardened cap iron takes on. There was also some sly discussion of one iron lasting longer than another, etc, and in my experience (including counting strokes) there is almost no difference between non-defective A2 irons - everyone brings them up to about the same hardness. I do have a defective one - shepherd - it's the only defective A2 iron I've ever had.

That was quite some time ago, though.

I don't have any problem with Rob, though. He's making a living and he's forthright about what he's selling and who is paying him. I get engrossed in details a lot and argue points, and sometimes it makes it out like I don't like people, and there's people I'm indifferent about but few that I would say "I don't like that person".

And I'll argue points with people I like. Some people just don't give you much to argue about (like warren, george, etc). I used to argue with warren about cap irons and stock stanley irons and now I'm using cap irons and stock stanley irons, so you see how that turned out (and a wooden try plane).

If some bloggers don't like us, though, that seems like it's their problem and not ours. If some practicing professional woodworkers were stopping by and saying "you guys are completely wrong", then they'd have my attention.

dan sherman

08-18-2014, 2:14 PM

I think some people on this thread have been drinking to much Sawmill Creek Kool-Aid.......

The reason why a lot of woodworking personalities avoid the Creek, is that it seems to have a disproportionate amount of members just looking to argue. One more than one occasion I have seen someone ask a question and the thread goes off on a random tangent because two or more members just want to argue who is the better woodworker. Half the time the original question doesn't even get answered.

dan sherman

08-18-2014, 2:17 PM

If some bloggers don't like us, though, that seems like it's their problem and not ours. If some practicing professional woodworkers were stopping by and saying "you guys are completely wrong", then they'd have my attention.

Please define "professional woodworker", Last time I checked pretty much everyone that has been griped about gets paid for woodworking.

Daniel Rode

08-18-2014, 2:25 PM

Chris Schwarz is a professional writer, editor, publisher and teacher. He does not earn an significant part of his income as a woodworker. Sellers, once earned a living as a professional woodworker but now is predominantly a teacher and writer (books, blog).

David Marks, by contrast, once had a popular TV show, teaches and has done a little writing but he is a professional woodworker. Garrett Hack, is another example of a professional woodworker who writes and teaches.

These two groups might appear similar on the surface, but they are vastly different.

Please define "professional woodworker", Last time I checked pretty much everyone that has been griped about gets paid for woodworking.

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 2:28 PM

Someone who derives their income from the pieces that they make, design, restore, etc.

I shouldn't even need to say anything about george, but lest someone says "he made his salary from a museum", he's done some of his most demanding work on the side from paying customers instead of setting up classes, and his ability to design and execute is completely unquestionable.

And Warren works entirely with hand tools and makes a living doing, if I'm not mistaken, woodworking and historically accurate restoration with hand tools. Warren also has insight on design and execution that is far beyond bloggers "buy premium tools" advice.

Warren and George will offer advice and criticism for free, and all of the "new discoveries" being brought up by bloggers are things both have read, digested and applied in context long ago. (and I have never seen them discourage anyone from woodworking, despite the fact that they don't get anything in return).

dan sherman

08-18-2014, 2:50 PM

Chris Schwarz is a professional writer, editor, publisher and teacher. He does not earn an significant part of his income as a woodworker.

Someone who derives their income from the pieces that they make, design, restore, etc.

So let me get this right, if I do woodworking all day, and get payed because I woodwork all day, but I'm not getting payed by selling what i make then I'm not a Pro?

If so, that seems like a pretty narrow & elitist point of view. Does a person need to be in a biker gang to be a biker?

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 2:57 PM

So let me get this right, if I do woodworking all day, and get payed because I woodwork all day, but I'm not getting payed by selling what i make then I'm not a Pro?

If so, that seems like a pretty narrow & elitist point of view. Does a person need to be in a biker gang to be a biker?

If what you're getting toward is that being a professional editor or writer or publisher and doing a lot of woodworking is not the same thing as being a professional woodworker or craftsman (especially in the warren, george, randall, peter ross, etc, kind of way), that's correct. I wouldn't go to a professional woodworker for publishing advice, either. I'm not sure why it's important to categorize my views, but you can do it if you'd like, just as you can seek advice wherever you'd like to seek it.

Generally in anything, I will seek people who are formally trained and who have a proven track history, and go down the ladder only if no such thing is available. That's not the case here.

steven c newman

08-18-2014, 3:00 PM

The Tool Chest #2 I am building came from a few of Sellers ideas. Raise a panel using a handplane. And from the Schwarz That Tool Chest he built, not the Dutch one, the other one. The feet on mine came from a Norm Abrams idea on a Blanket chest.

I use each Person's ideas as a research project, then adapt to what I need to do my own builds.

Daniel Rode

08-18-2014, 3:05 PM

Perhaps a dictionary might help?

"Professional" does not indicate the quality of the work. It's indicates that one's primary income is generated by this activity.

I'm not aware of any biker that earns a living riding a motorcycle or any bike gang that pays a salary (and I know a lot of bikers). I will happily change professions as soon as they offer a salary.

So let me get this right, if I do woodworking all day, and get payed because I woodwork all day, but I'm not getting payed by selling what i make then I'm not a Pro?

If so, that seems like a pretty narrow & elitist point of view. Does a person need to be in a biker gang to be a biker?

Prashun Patel

08-18-2014, 3:08 PM

These two groups might appear similar on the surface, but they are vastly different.

I don't know why such a heirarchy or dichotomy is relevant. As a rabid woodworking consumer and eager student, I get a lot out of all of it, from Garrett Hack's pictures to Chris Schwarz's articles to Paul Seller's videos to George Wilson and Zack Dillinger's no-nonsense personal advice.

If any of the above were wrong, or mean-spirited, I might have issue with it. But it's all almost always legitimate and helpful. I'm grateful there are all types out there; I'm happy learning from them all, pedigreed or rubber stamped, or pigeon-holed, or black listed.

Daniel Rode

08-18-2014, 3:15 PM

This isn't good versus bad. They have different focuses, that's all.

For example, a professional cabinet maker is going to be busy making cabinets and casework all day. He's not very likely to spend much time making a video of how to cut a dado or choose a saw for a newbie hobby woodworker like me.

CS, Sellers, Cosman, are professional teachers and/or writers, so they may well produce a video that helps me learn something.

I don't know why such a heirarchy or dichotomy is relevant. As a rabid woodworking consumer and eager student, I get a lot out of all of it, from Garrett Hack's pictures to Chris Schwarz's articles to Paul Seller's videos to George Wilson and Zack Dillinger's no-nonsense-personal advice.

If any of the above were wrong, or mean-spirited, I might have issue with it. But it's all almost always legitimate and helpful. I'm grateful there are all types out there; I'm happy learning from them all, pedigreed or rubber stamped, or pigeon-holed, or black listed.

dan sherman

08-18-2014, 3:16 PM

I'm not sure why it's important to categorize my views, but you can do it if you'd like, just as you can seek advice wherever you'd like to seek it.

Generally in anything, I will seek people who are formally trained and who have a proven track history, and go down the ladder only if no such thing is available. That's not the case here.

The reason I categorized is as I did, is I think that's a flawed point of view. It's premise seems to be that if your not a pro, then your point of view and experience is insignificant. If you look back through history You will find a lot of non pros that made pros look like buffoons. Just because someone is a pro, doesn't mean they are always right or better than someone that is not.

Perhaps I'm just different as I wasn't trained through a trade that has a classist hierarchy.

george wilson

08-18-2014, 3:16 PM

I have known a few pretty atrocious "professional" craftsmen!! As mentioned,being pro does not guarantee good quality work.

Cool down,Dan. The terms you are throwing around,like "elitist" and "Hierarchy" and "classist" sound pretty angry.

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 3:22 PM

For example, a professional cabinet maker is going to be busy making cabinets and casework all day. He's not very likely to spend much time making a video of how to cut a dado or choose a saw for a newbie hobby woodworking like me.

Some people like to be taught that kind of stuff, but there are also some (me included) where it's easier to figure that out based on the tools you have around, and then look for direction if you're having problems. The professional knows that what you're lacking is experience, and that you'll find a method and then speed to go with it from experience and repetition. It's like the sharpening thing. I get anal retentive about sharpening fast because I've gotten past the point where I have patience for any other way. I think most people will get there. Hopefully everyone gets the urge to start sharpening everything they can get their hands on because it's a skill that goes outside the workshop (to kitchen knives, garden tools, scissors, and maybe shaving). We don't need to talk details (though we often do) if you're getting results and getting them quickly.

There's a local class here that's on sharpening...it's *all day*. I can't imagine it. I remember the first thing I watched to learn to sharpen was charlesworth's DVD - 45 minutes or something. It worked right away. Done. Next item of concern.

A lot of what we used to have to get on DVDs or out of magazines is freely available, now, too. I think LN has a video with ..can't remember the guy's name, but #2 at LN...showing the basic sharpening method.

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 3:25 PM

If you look back through history You will find a lot of non pros that made pros look like buffoons.

No need for strawmen, it doesn't apply in this case. Plenty is known about everyone involved.

dan sherman

08-18-2014, 3:50 PM

Cool down,Dan.

I'm as cool as a cucumber.

Steve Voigt

08-18-2014, 4:02 PM

I don't know why such a heirarchy or dichotomy is relevant. As a rabid woodworking consumer and eager student, I get a lot out of all of it, from Garrett Hack's pictures to Chris Schwarz's articles to Paul Seller's videos to George Wilson and Zack Dillinger's no-nonsense personal advice.

I'm with Prashun. As was said in one of these other interminable threads, the term "master" seems more appropriate here than "pro"--if master is defined as someone who possesses both skill and experience in great abundance. How one pays the bills doesn't seem particularly relevant, especially with such an anachronistic skill as hand-tool woodworking.

By the way, I was under the impression that Mr. Schwarz did sell a considerable portion of his work. In any case, I would not want to make claims about his sources of income unless I had seen his tax returns first.

Pat Barry

08-18-2014, 4:04 PM

Chris Schwarz is a professional writer, editor, publisher and teacher. ... Sellers, once earned a living as a professional woodworker but now is predominantly a teacher and writer (books, blog).... David Marks, by contrast, once had a popular TV show, teaches and has done a little writing but he is a professional woodworker. Garrett Hack, is another example of a professional woodworker who writes and teaches. These two groups might appear similar on the surface, but they are vastly different.
All the people mentioned here are certainly professional. I don't see how we can possibly classify any of them as less professional than any other we choose to mention. I also don't see them as being vastly different from each other. All of them have training, experience, and do training or video's or write magazine articles. How can we possibly discuss they are somehow less qualified because they are now teaching more than woodworking. Its ludicrous. This is the kind of thing that just upsets people. No wonder those mentioned don't want to be part of this site.

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 4:18 PM

I think the important thing here is whether or not you think discrimination is important. :

Two definitions from merriam webster, the second one applies more so than the first...and it shouldn't be viewed with anything else other than objectivity when someone like me says that George or Warren's opinion about working wood with hand tools or making tools or reconditioning tools bears more weight than any of the bloggers, writers, etc. It's just a matter of discrimination, and not in the same way that the word is usually used now. It is not intended to injure someone else, it's intended to differentiate when the quality of one is better than another. It's not really a big deal, well the difference in quality is sort of a big deal, but the fact that one source has more depth and quality than another isn't a big emotional deal...it just is, as in it's just that way, and that's OK, and differentiating is OK.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discrimination

: the ability to recognize the difference between things that are of good quality and those that are not
: the ability to understand that one thing is different from another thing

(of course, if you're not discriminating and the difference in quality and depth makes no difference to you, then identifying that one source is superior to the other isn't important. It's important to me. It's not important that the same thing is important to you as is important to me).

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 4:23 PM

I'm with Prashun. As was said in one of these other interminable threads, the term "master" seems more appropriate here than "pro"--if master is defined as someone who possesses both skill and experience in great abundance. How one pays the bills doesn't seem particularly relevant, especially with such an anachronistic skill as hand-tool woodworking.

By the way, I was under the impression that Mr. Schwarz did sell a considerable portion of his work. In any case, I would not want to make claims about his sources of income unless I had seen his tax returns first.

I don't know what he sells, but I guess what I'm getting at is there is a group of folks who can pay the bills solely on selling their work. We're lucky enough to have a few on here. If someone wanted to pay me to build planes, that'd be one thing. It'd be entirely different for me to be able to do it and eat pay my bills - I'd have to be a lot better at it and know a lot more about doing it. Consequently, I'd give better answers if I chose to share my knowledge about it.

I could sell basic woodwork to a few of my wife's friends, but there are few things that have less appeal to me than that. I couldn't do what warren and george do, I don't know enough to at this point and the issue of not being able to may be terminal more so than it would be temporary. I am glad to yield to any of the professionals when their opinion doesn't match mine. It's likely if I learned more, I'd find out why.

dan sherman

08-18-2014, 4:48 PM

I don't know what he sells, but I guess what I'm getting at is there is a group of folks who can pay the bills solely on selling their work.

I think this is the grey area. People make a living batch producing simple stuff and selling it on etsy and the like. Others are making a killing doing artistic stuff like this. http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2014/08/cast-aluminum-wood-furniture-hilla-shamia/?src=footer

I most likely wouldn't ask either group, about sharpening media, or what table saw they think I should buy.

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 5:14 PM

dan sherman

08-18-2014, 5:40 PM

If you had a plane you were making and you couldn't get the handle proportions to look right, who would you ask?
I'd start with these. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=63262

If you were going to build a hand plane and you were looking to set up the proportions, who would you ask?
Depends on what type you are taking about, but I would most likely make a Krenov style plane, and thus refer to my copy of Fink's book.

If you were going to make a moulding on a piece of furniture and the lines weren't coming out quite right, or you didn't know how to work a curved part of it, who would you ask?If it didn't look right, I'd most likely look at older works, and I have yet to run into the second issue.

If you were going to flatten a half dozen panels and they were too big for your planer, who would you ask for advice about technique?
I'm pretty well versed on the possible methods, so this question doesn't apply to me.

If you were going to finish a piece, you wanted to age it and you wanted to understand what would be colorfast and what wouldn't, who would you ask
This doesn't apply to me either, as I refuse to die or stain wood. My general stance is if you want a certain color buy a wood that color.

Phil Stone

08-18-2014, 5:42 PM

If you had a plane you were making and you couldn't get the handle proportions to look right, who would you ask?

If you were going to build a hand plane and you were looking to set up the proportions, who would you ask?

If you were going to make a moulding on a piece of furniture and the lines weren't coming out quite right, or you didn't know how to work a curved part of it, who would you ask?

If you were going to flatten a half dozen panels and they were too big for your planer, who would you ask for advice about technique?

If you were going to finish a piece, you wanted to age it and you wanted to understand what would be colorfast and what wouldn't, who would you ask?

I get what you are getting at, David, but one could also ask "If you were going to build a heavy workbench, who would you ask for advice?", and come up with a very good reason to be happy when someone like Chris Schwarz showed up in these parts. I'm sorry to hear that he doesn't feel welcome here. I guess whatever precipitated that is before my relatively brief time here, so I'll try not to form any opinion about it aside from regret.

Jim Matthews

08-18-2014, 6:08 PM

I think some people on this thread have been drinking to much Sawmill Creek Kool-Aid.......

That's offensive.

Comparing what goes on here to a mass murder
that included 300 children is craven, base and unwelcome.

dan sherman

08-18-2014, 6:15 PM

That's offensive.

Comparing what goes on here to a mass murder
that included 300 children is craven, base and unwelcome.

It's a figure of speech, but yes it entered the English lexicon because of Jonestown.

ian maybury

08-18-2014, 7:09 PM

Must say that i'm pretty much wide open to learning from all and sundry and feel that mag and similar woodworking writers fill an important role in transmitting information - at whatever level. They don't have to be placed on a pedestal (and some are all the more accessible for speaking at a level that's meaningful for many) - but lack of pretence, practicality and realism are important.

The one i really do struggle with is when woodworking writers push a particular maker's products - in any format, but especially the under the radar infommercial type stuff that mags, blogs, websites etc print despite their purporting to look out for the reader.

That's it. End of trust - because it's a fundamental conflict of interest, and because it's very unlikely that they are not in this situation at least gilding the lily.

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 8:02 PM

I'd start with these. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=63262

Depends on what type you are taking about, but I would most likely make a Krenov style plane, and thus refer to my copy of Fink's book.

If it didn't look right, I'd most likely look at older works, and I have yet to run into the second issue.

I'm pretty well versed on the possible methods, so this question doesn't apply to me.

This doesn't apply to me either, as I refuse to die or stain wood. My general stance is if you want a certain color buy a wood that color.

These answers pretty well clarify things, I can guess how it would all turn out. I'd certainly rather build a coffin smoother than a krenov plane, I'd rather get design advice than try to transpose something from a non-matching piece, get advice on carving the curved moulding, match the aged piece - and do it in a colorfast way so that it would match for a long time, and i'd certainly take advice from someone who has thicknessed panels on the clock vs. calling it good enough for me and taking twice as long.

Given that none of us make stanley planes, I think I'd request assistance on the plane handle from someone who has tool building and design experience (the handle template george has provided, for example, which is exemplary in design).

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 8:27 PM

I get what you are getting at, David, but one could also ask "If you were going to build a heavy workbench, who would you ask for advice?", and come up with a very good reason to be happy when someone like Chris Schwarz showed up in these parts. I'm sorry to hear that he doesn't feel welcome here. I guess whatever precipitated that is before my relatively brief time here, so I'll try not to form any opinion about it aside from regret.

I don't think he's ever contributed much here - most of the personalities don't come around much. Our beloved charlesworth stops in from time to time, though.

Anyway, I think the bitterness stems from people directing him here after he had a very awkward display of sawing on roy underhill's show. We compared it to some of the professional woodworkers on youtube (including the video of george building a spinet) and some peoples' feelings were hurt. And compared it to something like peter ross when peter is on roy's show, he puts on a display of competence that's satisfying to watch. And a bit of annoyance on my part that as I was babbling about the double iron, people were sending me PMs about how it doesn't work because Chris said so, and then after I had written an article about the double iron, I got a suggestion that I should ask chris about it because he could teach me how to use it. That started a thread that didn't end well, either. That's more a case of the fans than the teacher - each time someone new comes along, there's a huge rush of fans.

What all of this highlights, I guess, is where people like to learn from. I like to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible when getting advice, hence george, warren, or the like (or in the few cases of getting to see george working at pace in videos, watching when possible). I could've been using the double iron 6 years earlier if I'd have listened to warren instead of the bloggers and such. I could've bought fewer (and less expensive) tools, too. What gets people upset is when I say bluntly that when we have george and warren here (and george is regularly accessible), Chris doesn't add anything in terms of additional depth or accuracy. It's just the way it is. (and david barnett is one of my favorite folks to read, too, with great depth on a lot of subjects and practical experience doing them...though he's been here a relatively short time).

george wilson

08-18-2014, 9:07 PM

And,we hope David B. is here for a lot longer. He adds much to the forum,and has a very intelligent writing style.

Jim Matthews

08-18-2014, 9:21 PM

It's a figure of speech, but yes it entered the English lexicon because of Jonestown.

It's a derisive figure of speech used by people who are craven, base and unwelcome.
Dismissing someone like George Wilson tells me what little I need to know.

This might fly on sites that tolerate trash.

You wouldn't speak like this to anyone in public.
At the very least, you should apologize to George.

Phil Stone

08-18-2014, 9:27 PM

I don't think he's ever contributed much here - most of the personalities don't come around much. Our beloved charlesworth stops in from time to time, though.

Anyway, I think the bitterness stems from people directing him here after he had a very awkward display of sawing on roy underhill's show. ...

I've learned more of the back-story on all this, and I can see why CS's rep might be a little tarnished here. Oh well, I can appreciate what he's taught me without necessarily wanting to hang out with him.

I've learned a great deal from you, David, particularly on sharpening, so all this is said with respect.

Pat Barry

08-18-2014, 9:41 PM

That's offensive.

Comparing what goes on here to a mass murder
that included 300 children is craven, base and unwelcome.
That's not offensive Jim. Its a very common expression. We all know where it comes from but there's no point in getting excited about it.

I think your response here makes my earlier point about this entire discussion - all its good for is getting people excited. We should all be above this sort of nonsense.
Ed: not picking on you, just saying this sort of thread only causes emotional responses to predominate and facts to become less valuable.

David Weaver

08-18-2014, 9:45 PM

I've learned more of the back-story on all this, and I can see why CS's rep might be a little tarnished here. Oh well, I can appreciate what he's taught me without necessarily wanting to hang out with him.

I think that may have come across wrong, as it could be inferred that status has something to do with how much exchange goes on at this particular site between him and other folks.

That's not what I intended. We are lucky that George thinks it's as important as he does to shave information and give direction, but his status and the credibility of anything that he said would be no less than it is now if he chose not to post here at all (it'd just be a shame for those of us who learn from him).

What I meant specifically by that (that Chris hasn't contributed a lot here) is simply that he doesn't post here, not that he's in any way obligated to or that it would make any difference in the professionals vs. bloggers discussion. And that the posts that probably frustrated him were not negative exchanges or trolling that he's experienced here, or as a result of posting here. They are peripheral...just wanted to clarify that it wasn't due to someone lighting him up when he was posting here.

dan sherman

08-18-2014, 11:11 PM

I'd rather get design advice than try to transpose something from a non-matching piece, get advice on carving the curved moulding, match the aged piece - and do it in a colorfast way so that it would match for a long time

This is relevant for the type of woodworking that you do. For me, it's not very useful information, as the furniture styles that have these elements are not something I'm ever going to make. In other words, it's all about perspective.

Given that none of us make stanley planes, I think I'd request assistance on the plane handle from someone who has tool building and design experience (the handle template george has provided, for example, which is exemplary in design).
I'm not sure if you noticed or not, but at the bottom of the page I linked to, it had plans for Stanley totes, that are as far as i can tell identical to the various Stanleys I have owned.

Dismissing someone like George Wilson tells me what little I need to know.

What on earth are you talking about? I didn't quote George, refer to George, my post isn't even following one of George's posts. The only time on this entire thread I even said something to George was in response to something he said to me, and it a neutral response.

You wouldn't speak like this to anyone in public. That's funny, because pretty much everyone that knows me would disagree with you, as I'm a very blunt person.

bridger berdel

08-19-2014, 1:54 AM

I have seen a lot of (sometimes random) negative comments about him lately some as bad as "I dislike anything Sellers", and I've been wondering why that is

I think I can comment on that.
people come to woodworking videos for different reasons. the ones who enjoy watching someone demonstrating the basics, making it entertaining and accessible are going to like Sellers. the ones who come to learn the ancient secret knowledge that will make them one of the inner circle, or to keep up with the latest cutting edge stuff, or to somehow have the experience of having watched the video alone elevate their standing in the world of craft, those ones will hate him and his message of just grab some tools and make stuff. now, most people are a little of both, or a whole lot of neither, and won't come away from Sellers with either a hard on or a mission to find a hit man. Sellers teaches to beginner woodworkers, mostly hobbyists. it's what he does and he doesn't pretend that it is anything else. I wouldn't expect George to have any interest in his videos. George isn't Paul's audience.

Matthew N. Masail

08-19-2014, 2:08 AM

All I can say is that if someone dislikes someone like Paul (because hate is a little strong IMO ) simply because it's not what THEY are looking for than that is poor perspective. I'd like to think people are a little more mature than that and that they acually disagree princebly or something with what he stands for and/or is teaching if they post such feeling.

george wilson

08-19-2014, 7:51 AM

Oh heck,I'll watch anyone teach. There's little else on videos when it comes to instructional viewing. Sometimes I think it's funny,more than anything else,to watch the video of Roy and Chris jamming saws,and whacking their saws into the floor,trying amusing sawing sitting down positions(Ouch!). I like to see Peter Ross(when he can get a word in edgeways). I haven't watched a lot of Sellers( I think I will go and watch more,to see what the fuss is all about!!),and don't have an opinion to offer about him.

I haven't gotten into watching videos in general,somehow. I just haven't focused on them somehow. When I do,it's likely to be someone starting up a V 12 Merlin aircraft engine,or something like that. Or good flamenco guitar playing.(Sabicas did accept a guitar from me in 1967. He was the greatest.). Not even woodworking related.

Adam Cruea

08-19-2014, 8:28 AM

Well, I don't know how many Redditors we have here, but. . .

http://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/comments/2dgw4n/im_paul_sellers_and_im_a_lifestyle_woodworker_ask/cjpeoys

From Paul Sellers' AMA (ask me anything) on Reddit in /r/woodworking (which is a decent subreddit).

I enjoyed his AMA, even if I don't agree with everything he does. *shrug* Take in all information you can, and then dissect it and figure out what you need and can use.

David Weaver

08-19-2014, 8:45 AM

Somehow this got from Paul to all of the folks selling woodworking classes, blogging or literature. Paul is in a different class, more accomplished, and when I refer to "learning from the bloggers", that doesn't include him, I'd call him a professional who teaches courses, same as I'd call peter follansbee a professional who teaches courses. The difference is pretty plain to see when they work vs. when a lot of the non-professionals work.

george wilson

08-19-2014, 9:06 AM

I thought it was very funny when Follansbee was on Roy's show. Roy was idly thunking an awl(I think. It was something that WOULD leave marks),on a piece of Follansbee's work. Follansbee made him stop that when he said "You make the more careful of us cringe"!!

Dave Anderson NH

08-19-2014, 10:37 AM

Things have been a bit on the edge here for the last page or two. Lets move back from the lip of the precipice so no one falls off. "Nuff said.

dan sherman

08-19-2014, 10:46 AM

Sometimes I think it's funny,more than anything else,to watch the video of Roy and Chris jamming saws,and whacking their saws into the floor,trying amusing sawing sitting down positions(Ouch!).

I thought it was very funny when Follansbee was on Roy's show. Roy was idly thunking an awl(I think. It was something that WOULD leave marks),on a piece of Follansbee's work. Follansbee made him stop that when he said "You make the more careful of us cringe"!!

So what you're saying is that over your entire career, you have never had an off day in the shop, or done something that others think is silly or dumb, and would thus make fun of you about?

David Weaver

08-19-2014, 10:49 AM

Dan, it's like pro golfers compared to a once a week amateur golfer (or golf writer). George's missteps on a bad day would be better than someone else's solid or even finest work.

dan sherman

08-19-2014, 10:58 AM

Dan, it's like pro golfers compared to a once a week amateur golfer (or golf writer). George's missteps on a bad day would be better than someone else's solid or even finest work.

How are we to know, we aren't sitting in his shop watching him work every day? Thus why i asked him.

Zach Dillinger

08-19-2014, 11:13 AM

Just about anyone who says they aren't screwing something up, on some level, on a daily basis, either isn't paying close enough attention, doesn't actually understand their error, or is simply lying to cover it up. Absolute perfection is impossible because we are all, theoretically at least, human. Making an error once is normal human behavior. It is in making the mistake repeatedly that one begins to learn why the mistake is being made and, with proper reflection sometimes teaching, the person can learn how not to repeat the mistake.

The best artisans in the world are the ones who have made thousands and thousands of mistakes but have learned how not to make them time after time. They progress and they learn to make different and higher-level mistakes, mistakes that they see that guys who are still stuck on the easier mistakes may not see or understand because they aren't there yet.

Being an outstanding craftsman doesn't mean you can teach someone else to be a fine worker. Being a good teacher doesn't necessarily mean you are an outstanding craftsman.

In short, gentlemen, mistakes are the true teachers. The best way to learn is by making them yourself. The next best way is to have an outstanding craftsman share his mistaking making experience. Having a good teacher tell you what they know can be useful, but without the first-hand screwup factor, I'd place it third in the hierarchy of potential for learning.

george wilson

08-19-2014, 11:59 AM

Dan,my film about making two complicated things: The spinet and the violin,were made completely without re takes unless there was a "hair in the lens". Re takes would have meant I'd have had to make multiples of the same item. Many were quite a lot of work to make in the first place. We had about 3 months to make that very ambitious film. We worked like dogs. When I sawed the ivory,the saw did not waggle up and down,nor jam there,or in any of the other sawing scenes. It went exactly straight back and forth like it should,without succumbing to the circular motions that arms impart with less training. And,ivory is not easy to saw. It's hard as bone. I did not stall a plane out in any of the planing scenes. The dovetails were cut with about 3 quick strokes per cut,exactly on the line. I didn't even use a beveled chisel to chop them out. The dovetails fit quite snug,and had to be pushed together as seen on the film. That,and the videos you can see on the Fine Woodworking site,are the only recorded things I can offer on how to use tools the way they should be used.

If the film is "grainy",it's because it has been copied over and over again. It has been attacked for being "grainy". I don't know how it got on You Tube,or how it was recorded for that use. Besides,I was not the one doing the filming. A professional crew did that.

Sorry,Roy and Chris also know when they are on camera. If they don't want these "amusing" scenes to be out there,let them do better,or stop doing them. You don't see Peter Ross make a false move in his video with Roy. I could point out others who have been on the show,and have done well with their tools. And,those craftsmen have a lot less experience being on camera than Roy or Chris. Especially Roy. Both of them have had a lot more experience on camera than I have had. So,I doubt it's being camera shy that causes the problems. I'd say it is that some people are craftsmen,and some are show men.

I'm not trying to brag here,or be snotty. Nothing I have said is false. Look for yourself.

I know you do not care for me,but let your eyes and reason be the judges,and not some emotional thing.

Certainly everyone makes mistakes. But not on camera and just let it go like that. And certainly not repeated mistakes over and over on camera. Dave,I hope this did not go too far. When I am accused of something,I want to tell the truth about it.

Adam Cruea

08-19-2014, 12:23 PM

. . .we are all, theoretically at least, human. Making an error once is normal human behavior.

I find these statements slanderous and derogatory.

How dare you insult me by calling me human, Meatbag.

:p :D

george wilson

08-19-2014, 1:06 PM

I have even been told that I should not post anything I made more than 3 years ago. They are no longer relevant.

That kind of logic completely dumbfounds me.If I made the item,WHY is it no longer relevant? I am 73,and practically "history"myself. I guess I'm no longer relevant.

And who tells me this? A collector. And,I'll bet he collects things that are more than 3 years old!!:)

dan sherman

08-19-2014, 1:09 PM

I know you do not care for me,but let your eyes and reason be the judges,and not some emotional thing.

I have no issue with your skill set, but I do take issue from time to time with how you (and several other members of this forum) occasionally single out someone and then publicly ridicule them or their work. Saying you don't like something specific or you don't care for them in general is one thing, playing pile on is something completely different.

I have noticed you don't seem that way at all when it comes to metalworking. I have yet to see you make a disparaging comment about a specific machinist over at Hobby Machinist!

george wilson

08-19-2014, 1:12 PM

I don't know anyone over at Hobby Machinist who is holding himself forth as a guru. Besides,I'm a moderator there,and most of those guys are beginners. I am there to teach. I was invited there to teach because they need experienced people.

If you are going to be a guru,earn it. Show the proper use of tools when you are making shows about how to use them. Is that asking too much? Isn't that what you should do when making films for all the World to see? It really gets on my nerves when I see new,high quality saws jammed into the floor several times,or nearly kinked sawing 3/4" wood. That is not the way to educate newbies. Nor to entertain (in a positive way) experienced craftsmen.

dan sherman

08-19-2014, 1:19 PM

I don't know anyone over at Hobby Machinist who is holding himself forth as a guru. Besides,I'm a moderator there.

If you are going to be a guru,earn it.

Please show me one place where Schwarz or Underhill have called themselves a Guru. What does being a moderator have to do with it?

Daniel Rode

08-19-2014, 1:23 PM

I too am dumbfounded. Something made 3, 30 or 300 years ago is relevant. That the craftsman is here to discuss it makes it exponentially more relevant. It doesn't even make sense.

I have even been told that I should not post anything I made more than 3 years ago. They are no longer relevant.

That kind of logic completely dumbfounds me.If I made the item,WHY is it no longer relevant? I am 73,and practically "history"myself. I guess I'm no longer relevant.

And who tells me this? A collector. And,I'll bet he collects things that are more than 3 years old!!:)

Daniel Rode

08-19-2014, 1:25 PM

You don't want a discussion. You just want to argue. You have an axe to grind and you'll grind it with whatever stone you see.

Please show me one place where Schwarz or Underhill have called themselves a Guru. What does being a moderator have to do with it?

george wilson

08-19-2014, 1:27 PM

I don't need to debate the obvious with you,Dan. Roy's whole life is doing shows,teaching classes,and making book after book. What is he? What is Chris?

Fact is,you do not like me,so leave me alone. I get it.

David Weaver

08-19-2014, 1:44 PM

That kind of logic completely dumbfounds me.If I made the item,WHY is it no longer relevant? I am 73,and practically "history"myself. I guess I'm no longer relevant.

And who tells me this? A collector. And,I'll bet he collects things that are more than 3 years old!!:)

PBS had a special about this about a decade ago, where a guy doing a documentary went around the country to people who folks would otherwise deem insignificant (because they were "spent" or past their prime), and he interviewed them - he didn't ask them about stuff, he asked them about them. His point was that society is often quick to try to acquire the things people have made, but eager to disregard the people themselves. Most of the people were confused as to why anyone would want to know anything about them (they were all elderly, intentionally chosen to be), but his point was well taken - we're quick to want to have the things for ourselves, but quick to rationalize why it's OK for us to disregard people or just have no interest in them at all.

50 years from now, george, a few knowledgeable collectors are going to be trying to acquire your things, but they will have made no attempt to get to know you. And that's a shame.

Accessibility to people sometimes convinces us that they are not as good as the unknown or less accessible, though, which is also a shame.

Graham Haydon

08-19-2014, 1:50 PM

I spent a lovely Sunday morning watching all four parts of this series. If anyone else can make the time I'm sure they will find it time well spent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K48FezBoPWg

Pat Barry

08-19-2014, 1:56 PM

One point about Roy's work on TV is that, as far as I can see, the filming of an entire show is done in real-time, no editing, no cutaways, etc. As such, when he makes a mistake - which he does often as we all can see, its because he is rushing to get everything done in the 20 minute time period he has allotted. I think he always acknowledges his mistakes and he never tries to blame it on anything, its just what happens when you hurry. I think those mistakes though, are common mistakes anyone can make and therefore the viewer is able to see mistakes and learn from them just as if the viewer himself made the mistake. I give Roy alll the credit in the world for doing what he does because it is so off the beaten path of typical woodworking shows.

dan sherman

08-19-2014, 2:10 PM

You don't want a discussion. You just want to argue. You have an axe to grind and you'll grind it with whatever stone you see.
If that's what you think, by all means carry on under those false pretenses.

Show the proper use of tools when you are making shows about how to use them. Is that asking too much? Isn't that what you should do when making films for all the World to see? It really gets on my nerves when I see new,high quality saws jammed into the floor several times,or nearly kinked sawing 3/4" wood. That is not the way to educate newbies. Nor to entertain (in a positive way) experienced craftsmen.
Since you change your post after I originally responded to it, I'll respond to your update.

This is a good response George, it's succinct and explains exactly what you personally take issue with. Its based purely on your opinions and points of view, and thus as far as Im concerned can't be argued with, because it's not being claimed as a fact.

Roy's whole life is doing shows,teaching classes,and making book after book. What is he? What is Chris? Professional woodworkers who make money by presenting, teaching and writing! As I said neither one of them have ever claimed to be a guru or master, and I would dare anyone so show a single instance where one of them has claimed they are.