Is there really a technique for free handing on a table saw?

[Michael Yadfar]

It's kind of ironic because I have thread going related to tool safety and I'm asking this. Anyway, I've never tried it, and don't really plan to, but I've heard of people free handing wood on a table saw. We were obviously forbidden to do it, but in high school my teacher told me that some of the guys who are experts at woodworking free hand, and they have a technique. He doesn't do it himself, but he was telling me that you follow the line and slowly pull the wood apart at the back of the blade.

I don't know if people actually do this though because it seems dangerous. I've free handed with foam board insulation, but that cuts so easy it doesn't kick back no matter how far I push it off the line, I've never done it with wood and don't plan too. Another thing my teacher told me was that he purposely let a guy go who was doing it because he needed to be taught a lesson, and the guy got hit in the forehead and was apparently never seen again (this was early 80s so people were a bit less uptight)

[Kelly Cleveland]

I have never heard of this and I don't really see an advantage over using the fence. I have learned to free hand rip at the band saw and it allows me to work very quickly, but I can't imagine it being worth the risk at the table saw.

[glenn bradley]

Outside of the obvious dangers why would anyone want to use a tool that is designed from the ground up to cut straight, to cut freehand? The nature of the beast uses a straight feed path. Granted we can make that straight feed path do interesting things like cut cove molding but, the tablesaw is not a bandsaw. I can't wait for the first post with a "I've done this fer forty years and yadda, yadda"; they always come with these types pf threads.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Guys do it on job sites all the time to cut tapers quickly. These are the same sorts of guys you meet who have fingers missing.

[Michael Yadfar]

When I free handed the foamboard I did it because I didn't have a big enough fence/table. I typically use a circular saw when I have to do this for plywood

[Rich Engelhardt]

One of the names for the freehand technique is - "notaroundme" ;).

I

[Mark Bolton]

Guys do it on job sites all the time to cut tapers quickly. These are the same sorts of guys you meet who have fingers missing.

Of course anything can happen at any time but I am 46 years old and I have been operating table saws since my teens (not that thats a long time by any stretch) and I have ten fingers and ten toes, two eyes, and so on. I have free handed cuts on the table saw more times than I can count. Tapers, curves, and of course yes, goofy stuff that should never have been attempted.

I am in no way bragging or saying its fine but the simple fact of the mater is can it be done? Yes. Can it be done safely? Yes. Should it be done? The answer is likely no because there are alternatives however many of us have to operate in the world of time and money and you rely on a firm grasp of your individual capacity when you do things that are, shall we say, sketchy.

The simple fact of the matter is accidents happen when you exceed your capacity, or you take the tool for granted. The vast majority of people I know that have cut off a digit were either doing something very very stupid (and they knew it beforehand) or they were doing something the have done a thousand times and simply took the tool for granted and it bit them in the digit.

It can happen to anyone at any time. That doesnt mean free handing a scribe or any other non-straight cut is deadly, it just means its deadly for some.

[Don Jarvie]

I've done it with 1/4 ply but that's it. Thicker boards I wouldn't since there's more chance for kickback.

[Phil Stone]

It's called "free-handing" because there's a good chance of liberating your hand from your wrist. :eek:

[Art Mann]

My reply is precisely the same as Mark Bolton's (except I have about 14 additional years on him). In the building trades around here, it is done routinely by most crews who work by the job and not by the hour. I do not recommend that anyone else do it because you will get kickbacks unless you do it just right. There are always other ways to get the job done, although it might turn a 30 second cut into 20 minutes of setup and execution. Here lately, I have been using a track saw rather than freehand table saw cutting for those applications where it will work. That is a good compromise between speed and safety for me. I don't work in a competitive environment.

[peter gagliardi]

I'm with Mark and Art on this one. I have done it many a time, though less so now in the shop, as I have a bigger arsenal of tools. Understanding exactly what the physics are of what you are attempting is of utmost importance.

[John T Barker]

Using tools properly is always the best idea. If I had to do what you are describing I would do it on the bandsaw. The only person I saw do that was the same guy who let his work partner put his hand into the table saw blade. figured the second one was as stupid as the first.

[John A langley]

Can it be done yes, should be done no, have I done yes ,by the way I have 24 years on Mark


and 10 years on Art.I possibly look for another way before I did that one again.

[Bill Orbine]

I do freehand on table saw when the occasion calls for it. But I try to avoid it whenever possible... most of the time but not always the case. Will I teach you? NO. This is a technique where skill (as well as stupidity and balls) really comes into play! 25 years... I'm counting this with 10 fingers.

[Albert Lee]

I must and should free hand on my mitre saw, this is recommended by the manufacturer ;)

its a dual pneumatic mitre saw by Omga... :D

the cutting is controlled by your foot (like an accelerator in a car)

here is the photo of it being transported, its arriving on Monday

294015

[Bradley Gray]

OK - not to recommend this to anyone else -full disclaimer. I have most of my lumber boule sawn (through and through) because I do a lot of live-edge work and I daily need to edge boards and although I have a large band saw (32") the table is small relative to my PM66 with a 6' x 8' table. So I regularly edge slabs freehand on the table saw because I get good results and less back strain. I keep the fence far away from the stock and my hands far away from the blade.

[Justin Ludwig]

I free hand all my custom shaped roll-out sides. I've don't too many to count. I occasionally free hand other things in plywood as well: 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", whatever. Too lazy to build a jig I guess. I wouldn't free hand solid wood if you paid me though.

The trick? Stay on line, don't get in a hurry or distracted. Say what you will...

[Peter Quinn]

I've seen it done regularly on job sites , I personally don't do it. Its not usually the cleanest cut quality, and while it may be expeditious if a TS is sitting there, I play guitar and prefer not to test the laws of probability with my metacarpal phalangies. Technique? Well first you put on a dusty cowboy hat...then deposit chew in your lower lip.....strap on big boots.......yell "yipee, git er done" a few times. I think Bradley's method above is more common in much of the world, particularly the less developed parts of it, with large slabs and cants. And these may actually be a bit safer given the mass of the lumber involved.

I can remember having a friend in my shop few years back, good carpenter with 25yrs experience, decided to freehand scribe a poplar base molding on the cabinet saw. The look on his face when that board hit him in the gut and took him down was priceless. I told him don't do it, he gave me the usual line about him being a professional and doing this all the time, etc, take my skirt off, etc.....that sort of thing works better apparently on a little job site saw where you can actually slow the motor down and control a cut as you follow a scribe line or taper.....not so much on a 5HP cabinet saw with a full kerf blade. Irony was there was a 20" BS sitting right next to him set up. He went from smug to bludgeoned in just 10ths of a second. Left a good welt and rose the most peculiar little blood drops to the skins surface without actually breaking it. Thank god it was winter, cold shop, he had a vest and heavy sweatshirt to soften the blow. Drove him back about 2 feet and he's an easy 6'1 240LBS. Sound like fun?

[Michael Yadfar]

I've seen it done regularly on job sites , I personally don't do it. Its not usually the cleanest cut quality, and while it may be expeditious if a TS is sitting there, I play guitar and prefer not to test the laws of probability with my metacarpal phalangies. Technique? Well first you put on a dusty cowboy hat...then deposit chew in your lower lip.....strap on big boots.......yell "yipee, git er done" a few times. I think Bradley's method above is more common in much of the world, particularly the less developed parts of it, with large slabs and cants. And these may actually be a bit safer given the mass of the lumber involved.

I can remember having a friend in my shop few years back, good carpenter with 25yrs experience, decided to freehand scribe a poplar base molding on the cabinet saw. The look on his face when that board hit him in the gut and took him down was priceless. I told him don't do it, he gave me the usual line about him being a professional and doing this all the time, etc, take my skirt off, etc.....that sort of thing works better apparently on a little job site saw where you can actually slow the motor down and control a cut as you follow a scribe line or taper.....not so much on a 5HP cabinet saw with a full kerf blade. Irony was there was a 20" BS sitting right next to him set up. He went from smug to bludgeoned in just 10ths of a second. Left a good welt and rose the most peculiar little blood drops to the skins surface without actually breaking it. Thank god it was winter, cold shop, he had a vest and heavy sweatshirt to soften the blow. Drove him back about 2 feet and he's an easy 6'1 240LBS. Sound like fun?

Eh, atleast he's not singing sopranos, that's what would happen to me if I was in the way of a kickback, I'm the right height for that. Sometimes it's good to get a nice friendly lesson like that without being seriously injured. I already told the story of the "know it all" shop student in the 80s. The teacher told him not to free hand the cut, the guy flexed his muscle then proceeded to cut, and the teacher let him. Guy was hit in the head somehow, which is physics I don't understand, and he was never an issue again.

God Bless you guys with all these years of experience, I got about 7 under my belt, and maybe about 3 doing serious woodworking, and I'm just about to finish up the first shop I'll ever own. Never planned on trying to do anything fancy, but I definetely want to stick to proper use for now!

[Loren Woirhaye]

Yeah, I was thinking it might be more forgiving on less powerful table saws. In my installation stuff I have a little belt drive KITY tilt top table saw that runs a 7.25" blade and I think it doesn't have the power to kick back with much vigor.

I had some INCA band saws over the years I would take on jobs. I think this Rockwell Bladerunner thing looks a bit silly for shop use but for a portable scribing and tapering machine I think it might be a handy tool.

[Rick Potter]

I was stupid enough to do it a few times years ago. I was also lucky that I only owned an 8" Atlas table saw with a 1/2HP motor. I was cutting plywood sheeting for a room addition, later paneling.

When the saw started to bind, it would stall rather than kick me, thank goodness.

The things I got away with when I was young........

Rick P

[Mike Cutler]

I've done it, which doesn't make it right, but now that I have the track saw option I probably wouldn't do it again.
It's fast, no doubt about that, so I can see why someone whose time is money would do it. For a hobbiest, there really is no reason not to set up the fence, or fabricate a jig.

[Pat Barry]

I've seen Tommy do it on This Old House. Small, oddball cross-cuts, like trimming (knocking off) a corner. If the fence would do the job it would be senseless not to use it. On the other hand, there are times when things aren't all that regular and a guy has to get a job done.

[Lee Schierer]

I do not recommend that anyone else do it because you will get kickbacks unless you do it just right. There are always other ways to get the job done, although it might turn a 30 second cut into 20 minutes of setup and execution.

There in lies the problem. Any time you have to do something "just right" is a sure formula for something to go wrong. The 30 second cut could turn into a multi-hour trip to the E.R. and a lifetime of pain and regret.

Work safe, don't free hand cut on a TS.

Added thoughts: As an employer, I would rather pay for the small increases in time to set up a fence or use a miter bar than a single lost time accident and workman's comp payments until the injured individual can return to work. I also wouldn't care for the sloppy cuts that would result.

The problem arises when the new employee, apprentice or inexperienced hobbyist with less experience tries it and hurts himself or someone else. We have a responsibility here to advocate safe practices since many new woodworkers visit this forum and depend upon our advice to tailor their skills and habits.

[Justin Ludwig]

This was well discussed in another thread (which I'm too lazy to search for) and someone post an amazing Japanese produced video of an old carpenter speedily ripping 6ft boards free hand on a TS. I was fascinated, but not to the point where I'd attempt what he was doing. Tensions released in hardwoods are troublesome enough with a short fence sometimes.

[Art Mann]

There in lies the problem. Any time you have to do something "just right" is a sure formula for something to go wrong. The 30 second cut could turn into a multi-hour trip to the E.R. and a lifetime of pain and regret.

Work safe, don't free hand cut on a TS.

As I said, I don't recommend anyone try to learn how to do this. Unless you are in a line of work that requires it, it isn't worth the risk. On the other hand, I don't think you grasp just how commonplace the practice is in the building trades or what a miniscule percentage of professionals are hurt doing it. There are many other activities in the building trades that are more dangerous. The people who do these jobs every day are not taking a very big risk because they have the skills necessary to do it safely and have done so for decades without incident.

[Frank Drew]

In addition to the obvious safety issues, I don't think that this is very good for the saw blade.

[Mark Bolton]

There in lies the problem. Any time you have to do something "just right" is a sure formula for something to go wrong. The 30 second cut could turn into a multi-hour trip to the E.R. and a lifetime of pain and regret.

Work safe, don't free hand cut on a TS.

Its pretty clear whenever these threads pop up (archives are full of them) that there are those who simply say it never should be done and those who clearly feel its a cautious but accepted practice in the professional arena. It may be fine to insinuate that everyone should simply take the longer path but at whose expense? This forum, and society as a whole, is full of people who are going out and getting 3, 5, 10, or more bids for work. Pitting each bid against each other all to save a nickel. And then something like this comes up and a task which I can complete in a mere fraction of the time it would take in comparison to the longer path (and I will argue endlessly that its safe) is suddenly off the table. That's perfectly fine with me but in a professional environment that course of action must be compensated and in an extreme competitive environment (nearly every job nowadays) that simply isn't going to happen. So yes, if compensated, I would take the longer route.

It will still go over like a lead balloon for the uber safety folks but the simple fact is the professional world and the hobby world are two completely different animals and if one is unwilling to acknowledge that that's fine but its wrong and lacks objectivity. In every one of these threads the overwhelming theme is not to do it, and more specifically for the hobbyist not to ever do it. That's always crystal clear.

To that end, it's clear that many of the people who accept free hand rips are speaking to field work, and yes the vast majority of times this is done on small underpowered saws. I honestly cant imagine why one would have the need to do it regularly in a shop environment given there is a band saw handy as well as quick access to other hand tool options. This isn't the case in the field. I can only think of a couple times in my career that Ive ever had a band saw on the job and I, and I'm sure others, have done jobs where entire rooms were dedicated to a pretty well equipped shop. Further, even if there were one there for many of the free hand rips I do I still would use the option for the reason Scott mentioned about a larger table surface as well as the fact that to back bevel on a BS you have to angle the table as opposed to the blade. This would be a nightmare with a long piece of base or any large piece.

Most of my freehand rips would be scribes. Fillers, baseboard, casing that terminates against a wall, and so on. For these kicking the blade to 5-10 degrees, freehanding a cut leaving the scribe line, and then slicking it in with a block plane takes a fraction of the time. Additionally if you're working with pre-finished material, the back face of the board is riding on the table as opposed to a jigsaw potentially scratching the finished face, and so on. My hands are never near enough to the blade for an issue, the off cut from the rip is a very small piece so the possibility of pinch/kickback is virtually zero. If the off cut is a wider piece I will rip with the fence as close to the scribe as possible getting rid of the bulk of the material and then come back and back bevel to the scribe line. Its completely safe if you're smart.

I can imagine in Peter's scenario the guy got a little bravado and wound up making a fool of himself. Again, one of two criteria, something stoopid... or taking the tool for granted. Sounds like a combination of both.

[Larry Edgerton]

Mark about summed it up....

I can do a lot of things on a motorcycle that many of you can't do as well. Its not a problem with the motorcycle........

[Wayne Hendrix]

When I installed cabinets we did it to cut the scribe strip to match the wall. The "trick" if you will was first ripping the waste area with the fence and the only trimming off less than the thickness of the blade freehand to match the angle. This significantly reduced the chance of kickback. We also didn't cut the full thing in one pass, you trimmed one half and then flipped it around and trimmed the other half from the other end this way your hands never hand got close to the blade and were always on the side such if it did catch and kickback they would be pushed away from the blade not pulled into it.

Not saying it was the best way or safest way but that's how we did it.

[Yonak Hawkins]

OK - not to recommend this to anyone else -full disclaimer. I have most of my lumber boule sawn (through and through) because I do a lot of live-edge work and I daily need to edge boards and although I have a large band saw (32") the table is small relative to my PM66 with a 6' x 8' table. So I regularly edge slabs freehand on the table saw because I get good results and less back strain. I keep the fence far away from the stock and my hands far away from the blade.

I'm with Bradley. I find a table saw better for straightlining a board with two live or curvy edges than a band saw.

[Jim Rimmer]

Reading this post brings me to 2 thoughts:

1. If you ask the question, then you already think it isn't safe.
2. When that many people say "I do it all the time but you shouldn't try it", it isn't safe.

[Michael Yadfar]

Reading this post brings me to 2 thoughts:

1. If you ask the question, then you already think it isn't safe.
2. When that many people say "I do it all the time but you shouldn't try it", it isn't safe.

I truely did know it wasn't safe, and I even mentioned that in the thread description. The question wasn't so much regarding the safety, I was more looking to see if people actually do this

[Brian Holcombe]

OK - not to recommend this to anyone else -full disclaimer. I have most of my lumber boule sawn (through and through) because I do a lot of live-edge work and I daily need to edge boards and although I have a large band saw (32") the table is small relative to my PM66 with a 6' x 8' table. So I regularly edge slabs freehand on the table saw because I get good results and less back strain. I keep the fence far away from the stock and my hands far away from the blade.

Bradley,

It is much easier to do this with a track saw than with a table saw.

[rudy de haas]

When I worked construction I did this many times - but the key to doing it without bleeding is in something Mark Bolton mentions above: using a low power saw. On the typical contractor saw at 110V you've got about 0.75 to 1.5 HP - and that's not usually enough to either rip the board out of your hands and whack you with it or pull your hands into the saw. However.. you do not want to try it with a 3HP or larger cabinet saw because it will throw you around if the blade catches the wrong way.

[Nicholas Carey]

Boatbuilders have been known to cut planks to shape freehand on the table saw. One should note that the workpieces in question tend to be long, with stock 10–15 feet in length or more being common. Further, there's usually an assistant on the outfeed end helping control things. And the wood is usually clear, straight of grain and fairly soft — cedar, larch/hackmatack, for, mahogany being typical planking woods.

And the long moment arm means the operators get a whole lot of leverage on their side if things go south.

[Jim Rimmer]

I truely did know it wasn't safe, and I even mentioned that in the thread description. The question wasn't so much regarding the safety, I was more looking to see if people actually do this

I was somewhat amazed to find out how many people did it. I did see Tom Silva do it on This Od House once. Didn't say anything; just slyly made the cut and moved on.

[Art Mann]

Based on my observations, in the finish carpentry business, it is rare to find a craftsman who doesn't free hand cut on a table saw from time to time.

[Michael Kellough]

There are techniques for everything. The minimum technique required to accomplish something is determined by your skill and experience. Your ability to anticipate and solve problems before they cause harm is what allows you to do something dangerous successfully.

The topic/question made me think of this question, "Is there a technique for navigating Class 5 whitewater in an open boat?"

[John Sanford]

When I worked construction I did this many times - but the key to doing it without bleeding is in something Mark Bolton mentions above: using a low power saw. On the typical contractor saw at 110V you've got about 0.75 to 1.5 HP -
False. While a low power saw will reduce the energy in a kickback, it's going to have zero effect on the probability of kick back, much less the probability of the wood doing wonky things. And yes, a 1.5hp contractors saw can lay down some serious kickback.


I've free handed with foam board insulation, but that cuts so easy it doesn't kick back no matter how far I push it off the line,
Then you've been fortunate. I've had foam board kick back, it's actually quite instructive, and should be used in demonstrations of kickback. The 2x2 sheet of foamboard sailed across the garage at a respectable pace.

As far as the original question:

Yes, it can be done. No, it's not a safe practice. Yes, if you're being paid to work with a tablesaw and you do it, you can get a multimillion dollar settlement in a liability case from an idiotic jury when you lose fingers while doing it. No, not everybody who does it will lose fingers. In a similar vein, not everybody who plays Russian Roulette splashes their brains across the wall. No, it's not as risky as playing Russian Roulette. What's your risk tolerance?

Do I do it? No, but I have done it with a tile saw. Doing so did not make me a happy camper, and I will endeavour to not do it again. Not worth it....

[Mark Bolton]

not everybody who plays Russian Roulette splashes their brains across the wall


There have been lots of funny analogy's and comparisons in this thread and now we have Russian Roulette :cool:

The best ones for me, and the one that made the most sense, are the comparisons to white water, and motorcycles. Travis Pestrana doing a double back flip on an MX bike is something that would be highly discouraged by anyone in the safety camp yet he is a multi-millionaire and very successful. Just because you dont have his capacity doesnt mean its wrong, it just means you dont have his capacity. Own it.

The issue here is simply knowing your limits. If your one who thinks motorcycles are dangerous than by all means stay away from them. But leave Travis alone. Some of us run our table saw's like a rented cruiser bicycle at the beach and some of us run our saws like Travis Pestrana.

[John T Barker]

I'm often surprised at the way I see tool use described on woodworking forums. Here is an unsafe practice being talked about by those that stay away from it and those that believe getting away with unsafe practices is okay...until you lose a finger. I don't understand it. I had a similar reaction when I first saw posts about table saw kick backs and people asking how far did the board go. I would be incredibly embarrassed to author a post like that and equally embarrassed if I had had something like that happen to me. I find it hard to believe that fools measure their kickbacks and joke about it on an open forum. Yeah, we all do things which might be unsafe and that others get away with...running yellow lights, speeding a bit, texting or talking on the phone while driving, etc. We think they are OK until we have an accident and kill someone else.
Mark Bolton- I don't think it's about capacity or lack of nerve. I think there are practices in the wood shop that are a little hazardous and some might shy away from if they feel they haven't built up the skills necessary yet. Then there are practices that are too dangerous and shouldn't be done. One may get away with them many times, perhaps even never have an accident but to my thinking free handing on a table saw is not worth the risk.

This is an open forum with people of all ages reading. The responsible thing to do here is not recommend trying foolish things like this. Anything that resembles encouragement might be read by a young novice who might hurt him/herself.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark Bolton- I don't think it's about capacity or lack of nerve. I think there are practices in the wood shop that are a little hazardous and some might shy away from if they feel they haven't built up the skills necessary yet. Then there are practices that are too dangerous and shouldn't be done. One may get away with them many times, perhaps even never have an accident but to my thinking free handing on a table saw is not worth the risk.

This is an open forum with people of all ages reading. The responsible thing to do here is not recommend trying foolish things like this. Anything that resembles encouragement might be read by a young novice who might hurt him/herself.

I agree with you to an extent. But to stay on my "analogy", Travis Pestrana doing a double back flip on the X Games and landing it successfully even though he has a foam pit and crane at his house and has suffered numerous major injuries, are you saying he shouldnt be allowed to do that, and more so do it on national TV, because someone, or some "young person" may see it? His crowds are full of young people who dream of getting his autograph or to meet him yet may never feel they have the capacity to complete one of his tricks. Its absolutely not one single bit different. Someone with a different skill level, a different comprehension of the physics, someone with a different capacity to read the board, forecast the possibilities than you, is capable of doing something that would land you in the hospital.

If I jumped on a bike and tried the double backflip today I would be in very bad shape. If I practiced that double backflip for a year I would be in worse shape. In two years I would be a cripple. The answer is to know earlier rather than later that that double back flip is above my level of competency BEFORE I attempt it as opposed to AFTER. Thats where the logic is.

Again, for the second time, in every one of these threads the overwhelming consensus is to stay away from it. Just like a double back flip. Just because you see someone else do it?... Doesnt mean you should.

[Bradley Gray]

Thank you Mark. I enjoy reading about other woodworker's methods on this forum and would not want the content limited to what is appropriate to a novice or child.

[Brian W Smith]

I've been in cabinet shops and on construction jobs for 40 years,professionally and since diapers hangin around my dad/relatives.Can count easily on one hand how many times,I've seen it done.........thats how rare it's been for me?

Onsite work is ALWAYS done with circ saw/straight edging........And I would really really have a problem if a sub was doing it as well.It's an OSHA thing...you know,guards and such,and have been on some pretty big jobs.In cabinet shops it's sliders and vertical panel saws.The latter of which dosen't have to be 50K$ Holzher......ours sure isn't,haha.But they are a joy to use,no limit to the strategies that can safely be done on one.If Travis wanted to do backflips with sheetgoods,this is what he'd be using.

[John T Barker]

I agree with you to an extent. But to stay on my "analogy", Travis Pestrana doing a double back flip on the X Games and landing it successfully even though he has a foam pit and crane at his house and has suffered numerous major injuries, are you saying he shouldnt be allowed to do that, and more so do it on national TV, because someone, or some "young person" may see it? His crowds are full of young people who dream of getting his autograph or to meet him yet may never feel they have the capacity to complete one of his tricks. Its absolutely not one single bit different. Someone with a different skill level, a different comprehension of the physics, someone with a different capacity to read the board, forecast the possibilities than you, is capable of doing something that would land you in the hospital.

If I jumped on a bike and tried the double backflip today I would be in very bad shape. If I practiced that double backflip for a year I would be in worse shape. In two years I would be a cripple. The answer is to know earlier rather than later that that double back flip is above my level of competency BEFORE I attempt it as opposed to AFTER. Thats where the logic is.

Again, for the second time, in every one of these threads the overwhelming consensus is to stay away from it. Just like a double back flip. Just because you see someone else do it?... Doesnt mean you should.

I could swear you are asking a question and answering it too. That's okay, this is the place for such liberties. Regarding your analogy...using a BMX bike, made for what this person uses it for, seems to me to be different than using a tool incorrectly. Would you agree? The table saw was designed to rip and crosscut and some jigs (tenoning jig for example) have been designed for other work with it. The bandsaw and a number of handheld tools are better suited for the cut that is being discussed here. I am a firm believer in using tools properly. One doesn't break the rules of handling firearms, cars and the like. Bicycles designed for acrobatics don't seem to me to fall in to the same category. The fact that this person makes a lot of money and gets on television seems to impress you. Yes, I believe that people acting irresponsibly and making tons of money should not have their acts televised...oh, wait...that's everything on TV. Nevermind.

I don't see your analogy. As I said, the tablesaw has a design purpose and freehand cuts are outside of that design purpose. The BMX bicycle, unlike a bicycle used for the Tour de France or mountain cycling, is designed for exactly what Pestrana does with it. I can not understand the comparison of acrobatics with a bicycle to the use of a tool in woodworking. What is your next analogy, an NFL football to a welding torch? Additionally as adults I think it is wise to discuss responsible tool use and not endorse dangerous or irresponsible use of tools, especially power tools.

BTW, the fact that a person makes a lot of money doing something is hardly a reason to follow his/her lead...unless of course you think drug dealing, robbery, kidnapping, murder and arson are all good careers. In the right circles you can make a lot of money doing these things. I guess we don't agree on this.

[Mark Bolton]

I could swear you are asking a question and answering it too. That's okay, this is the place for such liberties. Regarding your analogy...using a BMX bike, made for what this person uses it for, seems to me to be different than using a tool incorrectly. Would you agree? The table saw was designed to rip and crosscut and some jigs (tenoning jig for example) have been designed for other work with it. The bandsaw and a number of handheld tools are better suited for the cut that is being discussed here. I am a firm believer in using tools properly. One doesn't break the rules of handling firearms, cars and the like. Bicycles designed for acrobatics don't seem to me to fall in to the same category. The fact that this person makes a lot of money and gets on television seems to impress you. Yes, I believe that people acting irresponsibly and making tons of money should not have their acts televised...oh, wait...that's everything on TV. Nevermind.

I don't see your analogy. As I said, the tablesaw has a design purpose and freehand cuts are outside of that design purpose. The BMX bicycle, unlike a bicycle used for the Tour de France or mountain cycling, is designed for exactly what Pestrana does with it. I can not understand the comparison of acrobatics with a bicycle to the use of a tool in woodworking. What is your next analogy, an NFL football to a welding torch? Additionally as adults I think it is wise to discuss responsible tool use and not endorse dangerous or irresponsible use of tools, especially power tools.

BTW, the fact that a person makes a lot of money doing something is hardly a reason to follow his/her lead...unless of course you think drug dealing, robbery, kidnapping, murder and arson are all good careers. In the right circles you can make a lot of money doing these things. I guess we don't agree on this.

This is going to get into semantics but the motorcycle manufacturer will state that that is an unsafe operating condition. No different than a jet ski manufacturer stating in their operators manual that having a certain percentage of the hull out of the water is an unsafe operating condition. Yet professional riders flip them, submerge them, ride on the nose, standing on their head, on and on.

Its off track but its just to speak to the fact that different people have different skills and a different aptitude for things than others. And yes, just like with anything the unfortunate fact is that some people, when they cross that threshold, are going to learn the hard way. Hopefully they are smart and realize sooner rather than later but it'll never be 100%.

[Bradley Gray]

Wow. The table saw police are on site. Some of us respond honestly to a query and now we are drug dealing murderers.

[Larry Edgerton]

Wow. The table saw police are on site. Some of us respond honestly to a query and now we are drug dealing murderers.

Ya, that kind of cracked me up as well..........

Larry

[Mark Bolton]

I've been in cabinet shops and on construction jobs for 40 years,professionally and since diapers hangin around my dad/relatives.Can count easily on one hand how many times,I've seen it done.........thats how rare it's been for me?

Onsite work is ALWAYS done with circ saw/straight edging........And I would really really have a problem if a sub was doing it as well.It's an OSHA thing...you know,guards and such,and have been on some pretty big jobs.In cabinet shops it's sliders and vertical panel saws.The latter of which dosen't have to be 50K$ Holzher......ours sure isn't,haha.But they are a joy to use,no limit to the strategies that can safely be done on one.If Travis wanted to do backflips with sheetgoods,this is what he'd be using.

Agreed in a shop environment. In the field though it's often a different game. Pretty difficult to ride a circular saw down a piece of colonial casing to back bevel a wall scribe. And its already been covered that it could be done with band saw, hand plane, jig saw, spoke shave, whittling knife, sand paper, froe, adze, sawzall, or whatever else you have in the truck. But the vast majority of times I've done it and seen it done in the field its done freehand on a table saw in a fraction of the time and perfectly safe.

[Jason Roehl]

I'm with Mark on this. I do all sorts of things (including on motorcycles) that would give OSHA apoplexy and my mother a heart attack. The problem is that OSHA doesn't allow for skill, and mothers are often guided by emotion, not logic.

There IS skill involved with freehanding on a tablesaw. One has to be able to follow a line and listen to the motor for changes in loading--if it begins to bog down, you had better be able to straighten the cut back out, get the board off the blade, or get the heck out of the way (this one takes lightning-fast reflexes that nobody has). And, no, I wouldn't do it on a cabinet saw in a shop setting--I've only done it on a portable bench-type tablesaw and a low-end contractor saw. Would I require an employee to do it? I highly doubt it, but it depends on what I know about the employee and their overall skill and approach to work.

I also use ladders in an "unsafe" manner, but that's how I can charge $3000 for an exterior paint job instead of $10,000 to have your house totally surrounded by scaffolding. Another shocker: I often roll walls without drop cloths, and paint to a corner with a brush without masking tape. :eek:

As Henry Ford said, "Whether you think you can do it or you think you can't, you're probably right."

[Duane Meadows]

As Henry Ford said, "Whether you think you can do it or you think you can't, you're probably right."

As long as you remember that the exception to "probably" can be really bad for you!

If you've ever wandered why there are seemingly idiotic safety regulations, I'd guess it because of attitudes like "sure it dangerous, but it saved me 2 minutes!".

I don't mind if someone does something stupid as long as it doesn't risk others. I just get tired of paying for their consequences!

[Pat Barry]

This is a prime example of much ado about nothing IMO. The fact is a table saw can be used to make freehand cuts. The fact is kickback can happen whether or not you freehand. The fact is people have cut off a finger or worse on a tablesaw with or without freehanding the work. If I decide I need to freehand a cut on my table saw then I WILL do it. I will do it as safely as I can. Don't tell me I can't or shouldn't. Don't concern me with regulations about this - I'm not talking about OSHA - I'm talking about what I do in the privacy of my own home/shop. In fact, I don't think it matters if I'm using a cabinet saw, a Sawstop, a portable contractors saw, or even my trusty circular saw, clamped upside down in my bench vise with guard retracted (gasp!). Lets all agree its not a method of choice, it requires forethought about what can go wrong, its not advisable for a novice, but that it does work for certain situations. Let me give you an example. You cut a 3/4" piece of plywood sheet into a 2 foot by 4 foot rectangle to fit in a frame but when you go to put it in the frame the darn thing binds up in the very corners. What do you do? I think taking the thing over to your tablesaw and carefully knocking off the corners freehand is perfectly acceptable.

[John A langley]

I'm with Pat and Mark and I think Pat put it very well that this is a bunch of nothing it seems to me we have to different worlds arguing over something it's a pissing contest nobody's going to win

[Mark Bolton]

I'm with Pat and Mark and I think Pat put it very well that this is a bunch of nothing it seems to me we have to different worlds arguing over something it's a pissing contest nobody's going to win

No aims for victory here, that would be futile ;) Its just a matter of truth in advertising.

In all the time I have been reading construction and woodworking forums I cant recall a single occasion, including this one, where anyone proposed free handing on a table saw should be common practice especially for occasional/hobby users. It is a common practice in the field and on the work its suited for, and depending on the individual, it can be done safely.

[John T Barker]

I don't see the point in continuing here since the result seems to be that one gets misquoted or completely misrepresented. I don't wish harm or ill will on anyone but I don't really care what any of you do in your woodworking. I think it plain makes sense to follow safe procedures when using heavy machinery, power tools, guns, cars, etc. Those that don't just raise insurance rates and give cause for trade magazines to be filled with articles on work injuries. Really, go ahead and freehand, or joint the end of 2x4's, whatever you think is good to do.

[Michael Yadfar]

Then you've been fortunate. I've had foam board kick back, it's actually quite instructive, and should be used in demonstrations of kickback. The 2x2 sheet of foamboard sailed across the garage at a respectable pace.



Maybe the reason is because I'm working with fairly large sheets, but kick as hasn't been an issue with my foam board. I'm not cutting circles or anything, but I've curved off the line a few times with no kick back. One day a few days ago I had a really bad time because some of my pieces warped a bit which I didn't think was possible. He blade wasn't going all the way through, so me being a bit over confident pushed down on the foam board and had a kickback. It started me a bit, but I had a good grip and the board only got pushed back a few inches. I had a small piece "take off" on me once and maybe went about ten feet, foams not a scary projectile.


I had a similar reaction when I first saw posts about table saw kick backs and people asking how far did the board go. I would be incredibly embarrassed to author a post like that and equally embarrassed if I had had something like that happen to me. I find it hard to believe that fools measure their kickbacks and joke about it on an open forum.

I agree. This may sound a bit strange, but when I'm around other people, one of the reasons why I take every precaution to prevent kick back is because I would be embarrassed if it happened. That's not to say I don't take precautions when I'm alone, but I am a bit extra cautious around others for that reason. I find it a bit "amateurish" to have that kind of thing happen. Back in high school, some of the dents on the door behind the table saw were signed, like they were proud of if. Nothing to be proud of. I remember in high school I was the top woodworker in the class by a long shot all years except my first. In shop class you typically have a lot of meat heads, and I did as well, and they would always all gather around me when I was working and just try to catch me messing up for some reason. It was pressuring and distracting, but I never messed up or had a kick back on a machine, but people would start making noises and stuff when they "thought" I was messing up. I was never good at hitting a nail, so I got a lot of hell from the meat heads whenever I missed a nail.

[Art Mann]

It sure is easy to tell the people who have used a table saw to earn a living from those who use one as a hobby on this thread. One group says it is impossible to do this type of cutting safely and another group has actually done it routinely for years, or in some cases decades, without incident.

[Shawn Pixley]

It sure is easy to tell the people who have used a table saw to earn a living from those who use one as a hobby on this thread. One group says it is impossible to do this type of cutting safely and another group has actually done it routinely for years, or in some cases decades, without incident.

So we have less that 30 posters in this thread out of 85,000 members and 1,300+ online right now. I don't think that you can draw that conclusion from that small sample set. I used a table saw for a living at one time. I never saw anybody freehand. I've seen lots of guys tie back the guard on their skill saw. Took several to the hospital too.

[Brian Holcombe]

The woodworkers I know who use a TS everyday are very cautious and take care to use the proper equipment to perform each procedure. 40+ hours a week in the shop means you are given an incredible number of opportunities over a career to injure yourself, so maintaining a high standard of practice is incredibly important.

[John T Barker]

It sure is easy to tell the people who have used a table saw to earn a living from those who use one as a hobby on this thread. One group says it is impossible to do this type of cutting safely and another group has actually done it routinely for years, or in some cases decades, without incident.

Have to be very curious as to which group I'm in.
:)

[Art Mann]

So we have less that 30 posters in this thread out of 85,000 members and 1,300+ online right now. I don't think that you can draw that conclusion from that small sample set. I used a table saw for a living at one time. I never saw anybody freehand. I've seen lots of guys tie back the guard on their skill saw. Took several to the hospital too.

I can draw a conclusion about the group of posters who responded in some way to this thread. That is the only group to which I am referring.

[Albert Lee]

This is how I do it:


http://youtu.be/LHsbzzzZhqo

[Art Mann]

The woodworkers I know who use a TS everyday are very cautious and take care to use the proper equipment to perform each procedure. 40+ hours a week in the shop means you are given an incredible number of opportunities over a career to injure yourself, so maintaining a high standard of practice is incredibly important.

The group of woodworkers I am talking about seldom do any woodworking in a shop environment. These are the guys who do finish carpentry in new and newly remodeled houses. They are using portable table saws. What you call "proper" types of tools are either totally impractical in that environment - like a band saw for example - or they are much less efficient and/or more dangerous than just using the table saw. When I see this being done hundreds of times and have done it myself more times than I can count, and I haven't seen anyone hurt, it just seems silly to claim that the practice is too dangerous for anyone to do.

[Art Mann]

As a young man, I worked in the woods harvesting saw logs and pulp wood. The kinds of things I saw people do with a chain saw, and the things I did myself, would make freehand cutting on a table saw look about as dangerous as taking a nap in a padded room. I just don't think some people realize just what kind of a world other people live and work in or what can be done with relative safety if you know what you are doing.

[Mark Bolton]

This is how I do it:


http://youtu.be/LHsbzzzZhqo

Pretty nifty.. A little slow for me though.

PS... Not sure what that has to do with a free hand rip?

[John T Barker]

Wow. The table saw police are on site. Some of us respond honestly to a query and now we are drug dealing murderers.

Not even close to what I said. If you would like to respond to anything that I have written and don't understand it just let me know. I'll try to clear up what you obviously have trouble with.

[Jerry Wright]

John- Give it a rest! None of us are experts on every topic. Also this site is full of knowledge and requires mutual respect and "give and take". Some of us seem to give better than we take!

[John T Barker]

John- Give it a rest! None of us are experts on every topic. Also this site is full of knowledge and requires mutual respect and "give and take". Some of us seem to give better than we take!

Jerry- I'm not sure why you are singling me out here. As I scan through this thread there are more than a few people who have responded multiple times. As for my being an expert or not that is something you know nothing about. You speak of a respect attitude toward others, is the above post respectful? The post I put up, that you are commenting on, was an intentional misrepresentation of what I had offered earlier on this thread. It irritated me and I responded to it. Why is there a problem with that? I have no problem with a good respectful give and take but when posters deviate from that I will let them know how I feel.

I'm guessing you think it is your job to tell people what is okay to post and what is not, what you think is appropriate and what is not. It isn't. Don't do it with me, you will be wasting your time.

[Jerry Wright]

Interesting glass house outlook!

[Brian Holcombe]

The group of woodworkers I am talking about seldom do any woodworking in a shop environment. These are the guys who do finish carpentry in new and newly remodeled houses. They are using portable table saws. What you call "proper" types of tools are either totally impractical in that environment - like a band saw for example - or they are much less efficient and/or more dangerous than just using the table saw. When I see this being done hundreds of times and have done it myself more times than I can count, and I haven't seen anyone hurt, it just seems silly to claim that the practice is too dangerous for anyone to do.

Those are most commonly the people who wind up in the ER. I know one in particular who now has 7 fingers….35+ years into his career then hurt himself one day doing something like that with a job site table saw.

There are proper tools available for every aspect of carpentry on the job-site.

Other people doing dangerous things regularly is of little consequence to wether or not I would consider doing those same practices. If they are unnecessarily dangerous I will find another method, as mentioned above something like cutting a live-edge top straight can be done with a track saw.

[John T Barker]

Interesting glass house outlook!

Jerry. Give it a rest! Your attacks on members of this forum do nothing to further the experience of working wood.

[Art Mann]

Those are most commonly the people who wind up in the ER. I know one in particular who now has 7 fingers….35+ years into his career then hurt himself one day doing something like that with a job site table saw.

The typical problem with free hand cutting is kick back. It is not very likely the guy you know lost his fingers while free hand cutting. Maybe he was one of those guys who tied the guard back on a circular saw. There are some people who will hurt themselves doing any kind of job. By the way, how many tradesmen do you know who have been maimed using a table saw in a dangerous way? I know a person who was paralyzed from the waist down in a car wreck but I never considered that as proof that riding in a car is too risky. I know too many people who have done it for decades without incident.

[John T Barker]

If I knew someone that had been paralyzed in a car accident I would conclude that something had gone terribly wrong. Someone might have not adhered to the rules of the road, had been careless, maybe someone was not wearing a seat belt. It would be a reminder that one to tons of steel hurtling down the road at 40, 50, or 60 miles per hour can do a lot of damage. We have rules about the proper use of these machines in the interest of keeping people safe and alive. If we all follow those rules the chances are better that fatalities and injuries will be fewer. If those rules aren't followed, if people are not careful people will get hurt or dead. Riding in a car is not so risky that it shouldn't be done but there are plenty of things you can do with a car that make it incredibly risky. Moral of the story: do not make freehand cuts while operating a motor vehicle.

[John A langley]

This thread is getting ridiculous

[Charles Taylor]

Moral of the story: do not make freehand cuts while operating a motor vehicle.

I don't know about you guys, but any time I cut someone off with my vehicle, I do it freehand. Most people acknowledge with their free hand, too.

[John T Barker]

I don't know about you guys, but any time I cut someone off with my vehicle, I do it freehand. Most people acknowledge with their free hand, too.

Bravo. Clearly the best post of this informative thread.

[Jason Roehl]

I don't know about you guys, but any time I cut someone off with my vehicle, I do it freehand. Most people acknowledge with their free hand, too.

Now that made me smile.

But, ahem, ten and two, cough...