need to fix up some very old doors - any advise

[Brian Ashton]

Hi y'all

I have some 200+ year old doors that are sagging. Anyone got any experience on how to bring them back to square and they say like that? Pulling the doors apart is not an option.

Info: made of fir. They're standard stile n rail with panels and through mortice n tenons, about 8 foot high and 4 foot wide. They've previously been pegged but they're not holding up. Made up of 3rails and 4 stiles.

Thx in advance

[Jim Mackell]

Brian, could you post a photo so we can see exactly what's happening?

[Tom M King]

I've done it plenty of times, but not without disassembling the door. Why is "pulling the doors apart" not an option. Pictures would help, especially of the pegs, and tenon ends. You may like to look over my website: HistoricHousePreservation.com

[John D Watson]

Chair doctor and clamps have worked well for me in the past. You can get that stuff to flow into most joints without too much hassle.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

On one door, I ended up drilling a 1/2" hold into the side of the door in two places, and then I used a 1/2" oak dowel to hold things in place. This is on an exterior door, and it still seems to be going strong after about 8 years.

[Brian Ashton]

Brian, could you post a photo so we can see exactly what's happening?


I was onsite when I started the thread and didn't have a way of shrinking the pic... Here ya go.

I've had a few jobs of late, here and in Australia where I have needed to re-square doors that are a hundred or more years old and it's a bit of a puzzle on how to do it effectively without pulling them apart or, heaven forbid, injecting glue into the joints... This one belongs to a relatively well known castle in the UK as part of their stables restoration.

Under most circumstances I'd say rebuild it but this is a restoration and every little bit needs to be preserved. Therefore that means no glue or pulling it apart and refurbishing the mortice and or tenons.

The M/Ts were pinned in the past but they've also become loose.

[Brian Ashton]

I've done it plenty of times, but not without disassembling the door. Why is "pulling the doors apart" not an option. Pictures would help, especially of the pegs, and tenon ends. You may like to look over my website: HistoricHousePreservation.com


I'm on it. Thx!

[Pat Barry]

On one door, I ended up drilling a 1/2" hold into the side of the door in two places, and then I used a 1/2" oak dowel to hold things in place. This is on an exterior door, and it still seems to be going strong after about 8 years.
This seems like a great approach. It leaves the faces of the door completely untouched. For Brian's door I would expand the idea to run at least two dowels into the door from each side per rail. Use some epoxy to glue in the dowels. Cut the dowels off flush to the door edge after the glue sets up and blend some touchup paint to cover them up

[Tom M King]

I've never had anyone tell me I couldn't take a door apart here, and anything pegged will usually come apart after tapping the pegs out. Google "sorbothane mallet". I've even disassembled 240 year old window sash (you might imagine how fragile they might be), with help of the Sorbothane mallet, and never damaged or left a mark on anything.

Were the original tenons wedged?

If the stiles and rails are wide enough, and the bottom rail looks like it's probably not, I have put a threaded rod inside the hinge side, bottom corner at an angle, used the nuts to pull it back into what will fit the opening, and plug the holes. Taking the door apart and doing something to the parts of the tenons that you can't see would be the best fix though. You don't have to use glue.

If pegs don't go all the way through, or sometimes when you can't get to the other side, I use a slide hammer dent puller, and a little eye screw to pull it back out, and make a new peg out of old wood.

[Brian Holcombe]

Take it apart, clamp it into square then replace the pegs with bigger pegs? I expect it would still come out of square unless they we're draw bored, but if you put a lot of pressure on the joints you might be able to minimize how much it goes back.

[Jim Koepke]

this is a restoration and every little bit needs to be preserved.

That is a conundrum, make it like new without taking away or adding anything.

jtk

[Tom M King]

Looking at the picture, the door itself doesn't look that bad (although I am a little worried about the water intrusion above the bottom rail). Are you sure most of the trouble is not from wear in the hinges?

[Brian Ashton]

I've never had anyone tell me I couldn't take a door apart here, and anything pegged will usually come apart after tapping the pegs out. Google "sorbothane mallet". I've even disassembled 240 year old window sash (you might imagine how fragile they might be), with help of the Sorbothane mallet, and never damaged or left a mark on anything.

Were the original tenons wedged?

If the stiles and rails are wide enough, and the bottom rail looks like it's probably not, I have put a threaded rod inside the hinge side, bottom corner at an angle, used the nuts to pull it back into what will fit the opening, and plug the holes. Taking the door apart and doing something to the parts of the tenons that you can't see would be the best fix though. You don't have to use glue.

If pegs don't go all the way through, or sometimes when you can't get to the other side, I use a slide hammer dent puller, and a little eye screw to pull it back out, and make a new peg out of old wood.

Not pulling them apart has to do with budgetary constraints. pulling the door off its frame and then disassembling the door is ideal but time intensive.

I was thinking of trying a wire and tensioner system sold by Lee valley but someone else mentioned threaded rod, which sounds better.

[Pat Barry]

Not pulling them apart has to do with budgetary constraints. pulling the door off its frame and then disassembling the door is ideal but time intensive.
I was thinking of trying a wire and tensioner system sold by Lee valley but someone else mentioned threaded rod, which sounds better.
Here I was thinking you were trying to preserve some historic integrity of the door. If you are happy with it the threaded rod method hung lower outside corner to middle hinge area or higher should work just fine to get it all back square. Not tight, just square.

[Brian Ashton]

Here I was thinking you were trying to preserve some historic integrity of the door. If you are happy with it the threaded rod method hung lower outside corner to middle hinge area or higher should work just fine to get it all back square. Not tight, just square.

The first thing I was taught when I started doing renos a few decades ago was to let sleeping dogs lie. I'm finding that rule applies no matter the age of the project. Pulling the doors off the frames will mean I'll have to dig out all the old screws and scarf in new wood because there is no way 200 year old screws are coming out for any reason. And after that and I pull the doors apart there is a strong likelihood that I will find things I don't want to. And since I took it upon myself to pull the doors apart I will have to make them right. Taking a drill bit and welding it on the end of a 3 foot steel rod and accurately drilling a 5mm hole on a diagonal and then threading a piece of stainless rod through and tightening it up to pull the door square enough so it doesn't hit the ground as it swings, at least to me, probably will cause far less issues in the end.

I'm new to the world of conservation of antiquities (they don't even refer to me as a joiner, my classification is conservator), and up to now what appears to be the go is to leave something in a slight state of dis-repair but in a stablised condition. Re-making things appears to be committing the unforgivable sin. Another example is they want me to repair a bench seat that has significant rot to the point were it has pretty much collapsed. The bottom rail is about 80% rotted away and one stile has the bottom completely gone, but they still want me to carefully cut off the sound wood and scarf new wood on to them, instead of making a new style and rail. I'm happy to make them entirely by hand, exactly how it was done 200 years or so ago, but they still want as much of the old wood retained as possible.

[Phil Thien]

Like Andrew said.

Self-centering dowel jig, clamped over the stile of the door. Clamp the door tight, run a 1/2" bit through the stile and into the rail at least 3-4", and glue it in (use a LONG dowel, hammer it in, cut it flush).