Throwing away the wheels

[Bruce Mack]

Eclipse guide, Veritas sharpening system, MK.II, Kell system...all acquired over 20 years. They helped, though imposing off-putting methodology (scales, measurements, notes affixed to the irons on blue tape, name it..)
Thank you Paul Sellers. I'm having fun making things.

[bridger berdel]

Welcome to the free world.

[Winton Applegate]

Until you get into some really hard and or tearout prone wood.

In any case I would STRONGLY recommend . . .
if you have to give up your sharpening jig (would you try to sharpen metal machining mill cutters by hand ? Same deal / better edges translating into longer cutting between sharpenings / deeper cuts/ faster cutting performance from precisely controled edge geometry) . . .
but . . .
if you must go primitive and let it all swing free
Use David's grinder, minimal micro bevel from stones and hard (high quality) strop method.
The Sellers thing is just playing.

[Kim Malmberg]

Winton
Are you implying Bruce needs to go from one perversion to another. :-)

I haven't touched my jigs for a long time and I do freewheel on the grinder as well. Whatever I do wrong I do again. I just like using my senses and training my eye.

[Bruce Mack]

Ah the grinders......devilish, sparks, eyeshields...Dark Satanic Mills to which my O1 will not be exposed.

[David Weaver]

Grinders are definitely no worse for O1 than coarse diamonds are. If I were going to go guide free, and grinder free, I'd prefer to use a method that works the entire bevel only with the coarse stone and focuses toward the cutting edge with the finer stones, and I'd prefer a norton crystolon stone to diamonds, though the diamond plates do have the benefit of being able to work the backs of new tools - crystolon stones aren't particularly appropriate for that.

I'd be curious to find out how many people use the "sellers" method (rounded bevel) and end up going to a different freehand method later - there have been a lot of mentions of the virtues of the methods, followed by "well, I don't use the sellers method any longer". Once someone gets into hollow grinding and manages it successfully, conversion is rare.

[Steve Voigt]

would you try to sharpen metal machining mill cutters by hand ?

Well, you would not try to re-grind the diameter by hand, but we used to sharpen the bottoms of end mills freehand all the time, including converting flat-bottomed end mills to ball nose. And most of us sharpened drills freehand, even though the shop had a Darex jig. As one older machinist memorably told me, "the jig sharpens the drill, but it doesn't sharpen my skills."



The Sellers thing is just playing.

Personally, I share your dislike of the Sellers method (or really anything to do with Sellers), but if it works for people, who am I to judge? Maybe people who use this method will move on to other freehand methods. Or maybe they won't, and that's fine too.

[Brian Holcombe]

The sellers method works until you have to start over and regrind the edge because all of the sharpening has been working toward slowly rolling the edge.

[Jim Matthews]

Welcome to the free world.

Okay.

That's funny, right there.

[Jim Matthews]

Those of us that work in more common species, or plain figured woods find it sufficient.

Mr. Sellers mentioned much finer grits used in tricky situations,
but stressed stropping to get things dressed for best results.

I use a knife grinding abrasive belt, when things are really bad.

I don't see well enough to trust my steel to a fast moving wheel.

While this method may take longer to reach the desired polish on the edge,
I don't overshoot, or have need to regrind past my mistakes.

[Daniel Rode]

I've been flip-flopping between a convex bevel and a typical primary / secondary for bench chisels. I can get a sharper, more consistent edge with the convex bevel than I can with the "normal" bevel. This appears to be the case whether I use a guide or free hand. I don't have a horse in the race, so the only thing I care about is the results.

On Sunday, I was paring shoulders in white pine. For me, this is a task where differences in sharpness are noticeable. I had 2 1/2" bench chisels. They both started with a 25 degree primary and the actual cutting edge would be somewhat higher. I don't know what the actual angle of the convex bevel because I set it by feel and it's convex.

The convex bevel was clearly sharper. It cut across the pine end grain and left a smooth surface. Despite my best attempts to get it as sharp as possible, the normal bevel required more effort to cut and left a less smooth surface. Both setups worked but the convex was easier and left a better surface.

The other thing I find is that it is really fast and easy for me to resharpen or just touch up the convex bevel and I never worry about re-grinding to erase a wide secondary.

I don't know why this works better for me. Being a hobbyist woodworker, the amount of time I have to build physical skills is limited. If I did this every day, I might make different choices or see different results. All I can do is look at the results and go from there.

I do not do this for plane irons. I use an eclipse style guide or sometimes freehand and set a primary/secondary. I might try it some day, though.

[Daniel Rode]

By "rolling the edge" you mean that with each resharpening the cutting edge becomes steeper and steeper? The entire bevel should be worked each time, so the edge angle should remain constant.

However, assuming you are correct, how is that any different than regrinding to remove a secondary bevel that has become too wide? Seems like the same work to me.


The sellers method works until you have to start over and regrind the edge because all of the sharpening has been working toward slowly rolling the edge.

[David Weaver]

There's a deficiency in your flat ground edge, or it's at a steeper angle if convex feels better. A 25 degree grind honed right on the hollow would and should outcut a secondary rounded bevel.

But you've got to do whatever works best for you.

[Kim Malmberg]

I know this thread might turn into a battle so I'll stop very soon.
I work predominantly with soft wood, even green wood so I'm sure I would have to pay greater attention to my sharpening if I was using exotic wood.
Still - as much as I agree about the risk of creating round bevels when sharpening freehand I have been able to improve the results very much by switching from a forward-back motion to a sideway action. Maybe that's a no-no but I have found it very useful.
I agree with David W that there is a advantage in starting off with a hollow grind - which I do freehand.
But maybe we should all remember that there is a difference between a quick sharpening of a already well set up tool and a total resharpening of a poorly sharpened ditto. I wouldn't dream of regrinding a bad edge by hand anymore but I'll gladly do it freehand on the grinder. And I don't think a fee passes on several stones to hone a already sharp edge would create a round bevel.
The one thing I believe Paul Sellers is very right about is that training your eye and hands is beneficial for every aspect of woodworking. So that's become my motto. I took up woodworking because I like working with my hands and senses and in that context it has been liberating for me not to worry about being able to shave hair with my sharp edge tools. But again - that's just how woodworking works for me.

[Daniel Rode]

That is what I assumed at the beginning but both chisels started with the same, guide set, 25 degree primary. The convex bevel *should* be as steep or steeper than the micro bevel. FWIW, the primary bevels are flat ground, not hollow.

In my mind, the flat bevel chisels *should* cut at least as well if not better. But they don't and I don't know why...


There's a deficiency in your flat ground edge, or it's at a steeper angle if convex feels better. A 25 degree grind honed right on the hollow would and should outcut a secondary rounded bevel.

But you've got to do whatever works best for you.

[Bruce Mack]

I use the Sellers method on Shapton waterstones 1000-5000-15000. The convexity can be kept subtle. Some rocking is unavoidable, and seems to ensure that the very edge of the blade gets sharpened, something that does not always happen with the freehand side-sharpening approach or requires futzing with a guide. A flat bevel looks nicer but in my hands cuts no better.

[David Weaver]

I know this thread might turn into a battle so I'll stop very soon.

I agree with that. Once most people get some experience, I they will go toward something closer to what is taught at NBSS (quick grind, quick hone - few steps), but until then the idea that a large rounded bevel will be sharper in practice is only true if the flat bevel is not properly made. The sharpest instruments we're likely to use, straight razors, which have to be several orders sharper and smoother than tools to work properly, are hollow ground with a flat bevel.

[Brian Holcombe]

The difference is that a wide secondary bevel will still cut. Lifting the backend of the blade to buff out the edge slowly increases the effective cutting angle.

I moved away from this method because it's difficult to get consistence results. It would start off very well, then eventually get to the point where the edge was sharp but it wouldn't cut in the plane to save it's life.

[Jim Matthews]

Lifting the backend of the blade to buff out the edge slowly increases the effective cutting angle.

Certainly, that's true.
My practicum taught us to grind the entire convex bevel, on each step, to the same point.

The effectively shortens the piece of steel.
My guess is that each time I hone the entire bevel, through all the grits
it shortens the steel by the thickness of the wire edge that's formed.

(Plus the thickness of the aggregate swarf that is particles of steel suspended in oil with the fractured abrasive.)

It's important to stress that doing this by hand isn't dainty.
It requires considerable downward pressure to get a 2" wide blade
ground across the entire width.

It can be a really challenge with broad paring chisels.

I was certainly guilt of increasing the effective angle in my learning days.

I think the advantage of hollow grinding is that it concentrates your
efforts on the cutting edge, where it really matters.

[Brian Holcombe]

Jim, I think we take a similar approach, only difference is that now I work to keep the bevel flat, but just the same I'm working the entire bevel rather than just the front edge.

[bob blakeborough]

I agree with this 100%... The only difference between the SR and the woodworking tool will be the amount of hollow grind and the bevel angle or we would be snapping edges off like crazy!
I agree with that. Once most people get some experience, I they will go toward something closer to what is taught at NBSS (quick grind, quick hone - few steps), but until then the idea that a large rounded bevel will be sharper in practice is only true if the flat bevel is not properly made. The sharpest instruments we're likely to use, straight razors, which have to be several orders sharper and smoother than tools to work properly, are hollow ground with a flat bevel.

[Jim Koepke]

Two of my rules on sharpening:

1) Keep it simple
- if sharpening becomes an esoteric ritual it will distract from actual wood working and you may not want to take the time to sharpen when it is needed.
- if something isn't working having a dozen different things like; micro bevels, convex bevels, back bevels, ruler tricks, etc. will make it more difficult to figure out any problems.

2) If it works it doesn't matter what others say.
- if your work looks good no one really cares how you got your blades sharpened.
- if you are not happy with an edged tools performance, try a different method and reread the first rule.

jtk

[Kim Malmberg]

Two of my rules on sharpening:

1) Keep it simple
- if sharpening becomes an esoteric ritual it will distract from actual wood working and you may not want to take the time to sharpen when it is needed.
- if something isn't working having a dozen different things like; micro bevels, convex bevels, back bevels, ruler tricks, etc. will make it more difficult to figure out any problems.

2) If it works it doesn't matter what others say.
- if your work looks good no one really cares how you got your blades sharpened.
- if you are not happy with an edged tools performance, try a different method and reread the first rule.

jtk

Words of wisdom, Jim. Couldn't agree more.

[Jim Matthews]

Do you keep the entire bevel polished?

I think that's the real reason it works so well for me.
I doubt I get mine any sharper than those using a hollow grind.

[Bruce Mack]

If the bevel gets too steep I switch to side sharpening on the 1000 grit stone and quickly level the belly of the convexity. My set up is 3 stones on an auto floor mat and a squeeze bottle of water. No need to wash the wheels of coarse grit before going to the finer stone, no problems of congruity stone to stone if one is slightly concave, no separate grinding station and eye protection, no hesitation to sharpen whatever needs it at the end of a session. We converts are zealots.

[Winton Applegate]

eventually get to the point where the edge was sharp but it wouldn't cut in the plane to save it's life.

Thank you.
Some times I think I live on another planet than everyone else.



One perversion for another
:rolleyes:
Well it depends on the mentality
The Sellers crowd likes to take a while to get off; lots and lots of strokes; you know . . . make it last. Don’t get to the climax right away.

David’s crowd they want to get right to the fire works. No wasted motion only a few strokes and oooooooh LA LA !

I think if they could figure out a way to do it they would just hook electrodes to their pleasure center and throw the switch. Instantaneous like.
;)

A couple of thoughts
I have said if over and over before.
In the 30 strokes he uses on the strop alone that Sellers takes I could sharpen a blade on three stones ten stokes each or even a better edge for finishing five stones six strokes each.
If I had to give up the quick wipe (no wash) of the roller to keep the jig then I would go that route rather than “save the time” of wiping the roller by going to free hand sharpening.

Another thing I say over and over. I sharpen stacks of blades. BEING ALL SENSITIVE and in tune with the edge to hand connection is fun for the first couple of blades but after that I just want to chuck’er in the jig and geeter done without all the concentration. Save the hand to edge “connection” for where it counts . . . cutting dovetails . . . precision planing end grain joints . . .

With one additional thought :
Takes too long to put on the eye protection.
Ha, ha . . . yah that’s why I don’t use the power grinder. Just takes toooooo long to put on the eye protection . He, hee, hee, Ha, HA
Then there is the process of REEEEEEMOOOOOVING the eye protection.
The setting aside of the eye protection.
Way toooooo much involved there.

Yah, you got it.
Oh wait . . . I’m lying again.

In closing I will say to you what my Mom always said to me when I had a “new” improved “idea” that I was trying to impress upon her for the "obvious" brilliance of it.
she would say : :o “Dear if you like it I suppose I can stand it”.

[Brian Holcombe]

I don't have a micro bevel on paring chisels or bevel down plane blades, so I polish the entire bevel. On bench chisels, mortise chisels and bevel up planes I have a micro bevel, so polishing them is easy.

[David Weaver]

David’s crowd they want to get right to the fire works. No wasted motion only a few strokes and oooooooh LA LA !


Yeah, fast. No thinking. I should be able to get the tool I'm sharpening out of the work and sharpened and back into the work before I lose track of what I was doing.

No electrodes for me!

As far as the eye protection thing, in 8 years, I've never worn safety glasses grinding a tool to refresh the edge. I suppose if the wheel broke, some ricocheted pieces could come up into my line of sight, but it would literally be physically impossible for a part of the wheel to come off and fly up into my eye - it would come off in a tangent to the wheel and hit the guard, and the only stuff coming off directly would be bits and pieces around the belt line where the tangent would have open air to shoot toward.

I have had metal in my eye, though, but that was from something completely unrelated. That was a pain in the ding to get taken care of!

Winton - you should make a dispenser for your stack-o-blades.

[george wilson]

I have had a few blue hot chips bounce off my eye glasses from metal lathes. You do NOT want them to weld to your skin!!! But,like David,in years past I never had a problem with a bench grinder. Mine DID have the glass eye shield,mind you!!

I would never advise others to not wear eye protection,though. My polycarbonate eye glasses now provide my eye protection.

[David Weaver]

I would never advise others to not wear eye protection,though.

Neither would I. I'd have trouble finding a hobby grinder who got something in their eye refreshing a hollow, though.

Lots of times, the "danger" of the wheel busting into pieces is brought up about dry grinders, and i'm sure it happens from time to time. The gory accidents that are trumped out (including deaths) are from much larger setups, like commercial or factory grinding setups. I'm sure in the days of cutlers laying over wheels, a burst wheel was a high probability of a fatality, but we're not in that situation.

I don't even have the eye shield on my grinder, but the grinder does have a cast iron guard all the way around such that a tangent drawn from the wheel would be somewhere in my body. I'm just flat out too lazy to put glasses on for that, though I *always* wear them when I'm using something more open and grinding large amounts of metal. The piece of metal I got in my eye was a very round piece of metal off of a fairly low speed belt sander, using the drum on the end - but it was stuck enough that I had to go to the ER to get it out, despite waiting a little bit to see if it would move. It landed right in the middle of my pupil, too....I could SEE it! When the ER doc numbed my eyeball, she said, i can't tell if I got it and I said "I saw it as you were sliding it". :) Bit blurry that close, but I could still see it.

[william sympson]

All,
I converted to a hollow grind. I first used a jig and ground flat bevels on a course india stone and then a small secondary - it took forever and wore out my patience. The I went freehand with the convex bevel again on the norton ib8 stone and an occasional trip to 80 grit paper to take off hump and the corners - better than the jig and flat bevel but... Then I got a little hand cranked grinder and tried the hollow grind...I like this route much better and don't expect to change from it. So hollow grind, norton fine india, and an old hard ark stone is where I ended up. I do use green crayon on mdf for the final smoothing pass occasionally.

[Mark AJ Allen]

Who cares about like ... ; it all works. Pick the one that works for you. No contest here. Freedom from machines ... it's just different from freedom from doing by hand.

[Winton Applegate]

I suppose that is why I go without the power grinder, I like to go full Neander when it comes to sharpening. Most of the time. Too . . . grinding to the edge with the bevel facing away from me just has never CLICKED for me. I want a nice even hollow, what I get is a patch work of guesses at where the stone is actually touching. Different size blades and I just don't do it enough to feel relaxed about it. I have done a ton of hand grinding but I still hate trying to grind a little hollow on the blade.
Then, FOR ME, I sharpen and get a snack in the kitchen. I would have to hollow grind in the shop then finish sharpening in the kitchen. I can see myself going up and down the stairs grinding then sharpening back and forth up and down. That would cut into my snack time too much.:eek:

As far as lathes and blue hot chips etc. George . . . you must like the taste of cutting fluid more than I do . . . I always grab a full face shield when visiting the lathe. The stripes of fluid on the wall and the shield some how whisper that I am doing the right thing especially if something comes off a face plate and tries to break my nose or worse.

My face shields are even easier and faster to put on . . . plunk . . as opposed to opening the ear pieces then threading the ear pieces over the ears.

Not wearing goggles when grinding . . . I HEAR yah . . . but i don't think I could physically make my self do it . . . I have spent my whole life since I was a little kid . . . I mean . . . it would be like, for me, eating a regular sit down dinner with my fingers. I would save all that silver ware washing . . . but I just don't do it that way.
When I grind or use most power tools, even a hand drill, I put on my goggles or face shield.
The eye protection is always right there so it is like the most unconscious process i can think of. I might forget to zip up my fly but I would never forget to put on the goggles.

Put it this way, I would find my self putting them on before I realized it and then would have to consciously take them off to hollow grind without them.

PS: and about the
forgetting where I was going to cut next I always have lumber crayons, red and blue (or white chalk for walnut), I can totally keep track of where I am and where I am going next. I am marking as I go with the straight edge or looking for other problem areas and I mark, mark, mark then plane. Where ever there are marks is where I still need to plane. To day, tomorrow or next week.

PPS: let me show you an extreme example of my marks and being able to tell where I left off even years latter.. I made this bench how many years ago now ? ? ? ?
I planed it flat enough to complete our bubinga dining table. Pretty darn flat but . . .
see the blue crayon marks bellow the ebony vise handle in the photo ?
The bench is just a tweak high there. When I finish the bench totally I will plane the top again. In the mean time . . . what was the derogatory term for "fancy" girly man benches like mine ? ? ? ?
I forget but those marks left on there must get me some sort of Brownie points.