What size mortise chisel?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi guys,
I just finished a bench from an FWW plan that has four 3/4" x 2" mortises (the leg tenons come through the top and are planed flush). The plan showed me how to cut the mortises using regular bench chisels. Im going to make another copy - its a good skill builder project. But this time Id like to try a real mortise chisel and see if thats easier/better.

How wide a mortise chisel should I buy to cut a 3/4" mortise?

I have seen suggestions elsewhere that its ok to use a chisel thats half as wide as your finished mortise, and make 2 passes to get the desired width; e.g., use a 3/8" chisel to make a 3/4" mortise. But, at first glance, that seems like it would actually be harder (require more skill?) to get a good clean 3/4" mortise. What do you guys who mortise all the time do here?

Can you please give me some advise?

Many thanks,
Fred

[Winton Applegate]

I started with one of these (http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=30010&cat=1,41504,41533&ap=1)
See photo bellow.

I found it to be too soft but easy to sharpen.
If you like sharpening A LOT get one of those (they are cheep)
or maybe a fleemarket version would be less dollars and better steel

I would use a 3/4 wide for a 3/4 mortise

better yet get one of these (http://www.amazon.com/Matsumura-Japanese-White-Mortise-Chisel/dp/B00CCTKHLY/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1406432285&sr=8-10&keywords=japanese+mortise+chisel)

Your local Wood Craft may have one. The online store listed NO 3/4 mortise chisels at all. That’s hard to believe. I bought mine there but a long time ago.

You could look at these (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TBMC/item/MS-MORT.XX) (they are supposed to be the cat’s meow but I have not had the pleasure).

Sheeeeezzzzzz . . . . hold on . . . they don’t even list a 3/4. ? ??? What is the world coming to ? ? ?

Go Japanese
The last bastion of sanity and grace.

If you don’t use it much after finishing your bench at least a big zarker like that is going to look good on the old tool board ehhhh ?

PS: the photo shows my first 3/4 mortise chisel the Sorby that is too soft. It is toooo narrow in the area near the edge (see the Q-Tip) it needs to be wider front to back for better “steering” in the cut.
They were saving metal I suppose. Notice how much thicker the Ray Iles and the Japanese chisels are near the edge.
yep that is necessary.

PPS: David what do you think of thisn' here (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product/155942/34-Mortise-Chisel--Matsumura.aspx) ? Not over priced ? I am not up on current prices for the good basic Japanese chisels.

as opposed to something a little longer and better (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product/156022/34-Temple-Carpenters-Blue-Steel-Mortise-Chisel--Tasai.aspx).

PPPS : I just noticed the chisel in my photos is engraved on the blade "Wood Craft" "Made in UK".
Sorby ?

[Winton Applegate]

Took some time (and a whole lot of sharpening) but what the heck ?
I had fun learning.
This is one of my projects that I call "playing scales". There is no reason to do it other than the repetitive practice it provides for learning purposes. I think "The Real one" in the magazine (http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/article/a-circular-saw-in-the-furniture-shop.aspx) was nailed together through the sides of the long components into the ends of the short ones.

I mortised the whole dang thing together. Turns out it had an advantage. I used no glue or other fasteners. All the joints fit snug like. I can bang the thing apart with a dead blow plastic mallet and put it in a box if I need to.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Win! Man, I never saw a $300 chisel before. That must be some kinda tool! Be interesting to see what David says there.

I (now) understand the value of projects like your "playing scales". Strange that I never really felt the need for practice exercises when using power tools, but they are becoming quite valuable to me in the hand tool disciplines. (I made prototypes of course, but that wasnt usually an exercise. It was to find and work through the gotchas on a complex project.) But this shaker bench opened my eyes to the fact that I really do need to do hand tool exercises, like everyone advises. So when I read a Frank Klaus article last Sunday where he recommended learning to cut straight and true without a knife or pencil line -guess what pent the day doing? Yup, I made about 200 dovetail size/style practice cuts just for practice. Got to where I could do it consistently too! Today I try my first dovetail. Next, maybe Ill make one of your " scales".

Have a good weekend!
Fred

[Warren Mickley]

Fred, I sometimes make a wide mortise by making two narrow mortises, one at each edge of the wider mortise. For making a 3/4 X 2 mortise, using a 3/8 chisel would not work well because after the first side was done the chisel would want to slip into that first mortise while trying to do the other side. Instead I would use a 1/4 inch chisel to make two parallel mortises, then waste away the piece in the middle. For me this is faster and more accurate than using a wide chisel.

I am not sure this is appropriate for your situation, however. I am thinking you are making a bench with a 1X12 top and two 1X10 feet that have tenons through the top. In this case the mortises go across the grain so you really have a mortise that is 2 inches wide and only 3/4 inch long. You could make a 3/8 X 3/4 or so mortise at each edge, but you would still have a lot in the middle to waste away. I may have done it this way when I last made this kind of bench.

A few more suggestions. I like to make a shallow dado (like 1/8 deep) on the under side of the top after making the mortises so that the leg is somewhat housed in the top. I think it is a little sturdier. If you are preparing the boards yourself I would suggest 7/8 thick stock rather than 3/4 as being stronger and more handsome. 13/16 would also be better. Also if you are using hardwood you might make the mortise a little wider at the top and wedge the tenon to fill this up. The mortises on a bench in my kitchen are 7/8 X 1 3/4 on the bottom of the seat and 7/8 by 1 25/32 on the top.

[David Weaver]

PPS: David what do you think of thisn' here (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product/155942/34-Mortise-Chisel--Matsumura.aspx) ? Not over priced ? I am not up on current prices for the good basic Japanese chisels.


Generally (and I have gotten a couple of things at JWW over the years, but the deals get harder to find the longer time goes on), if there's something at JWW, I try to find it somewhere else, because stu, TFWW, suzuki tool, pretty much name anyone who doesn't cater to "giving you an experience" is going to be less expensive.

By giving you an experience, I mean that there are a few small individuals who used to import something specific, or a few specific things and give you a "person to person experience", but that stuff often comes at a price stiffer than a normal dealer, though sometimes it's less, too.

I don't love timber chisels for heavy mortise work unless the wood is soft or wet. The reason for that is that when a western chisel takes a little bit of damage, it's easy to grind it out. If you need to change the angle, you can grind the microbevel out pretty easily later. I hate to waste much japanese chisel doing that, and if you grind by hand it's a pain. A lot of western chisels are just as tough, even if they're not hard. I've got an old one-inch PS&W framer that's laminated and it was better in practical use than the imai white #1 timber framer that I had of the same type, and easier to sharpen. And $20.

[Mike Holbrook]

I bought Japanese mortise chisels farily recently. I got mine from Tools From Japan. You can get a very good chisel from Stu for half the price of buying it in the states IMHO. The only issue I have had with dealing with TFJ in the last year is they are often backed up and slow to respond. I bought a couple Koyamaichi mortise chisels in sizes for cabinet making. I like Ouchi chisels the best but their prices for mortises chisels are quite high, although they do offer another possibly better option. I wanted a larger chisel for bench making projects. David sent me a link to an auction for an older 5/8" Japanese mortise chisel much like the first ones Winton points you to. The chisel had a bad chip in it that took a good deal of work on a diamond stone to remedy but i got it at less than what it would have cost even from Stu.

The other option Stu offers is a version of the Ouchi Kaku-uchi oire-nomi. These chisels are good bench chisels shaped more like some of the mortise chisels above. I imagine one could make those chisels work for both purposes. I bought four, although I have not made mortises with them yet. There are "experts" who make a fairly strong case for making mortises with bench chisels, claiming the work is faster...

[Chris Griggs]

What Warren said....also a 1/4" chisel will be much more useful than a wide chisel in the long run. I rarely use anything other than the 1/4" (occasionally a 3/8") mortise chisel for furniture work.

[Frederick Skelly]

I am not sure this is appropriate for your situation, however. I am thinking you are making a bench with a 1X12 top and two 1X10 feet that have tenons through the top. In this case the mortises go across the grain so you really have a mortise that is 2 inches wide and only 3/4 inch long. You could make a 3/8 X 3/4 or so mortise at each edge, but you would still have a lot in the middle to waste away. I may have done it this way when I last made this kind of bench.

A few more suggestions. I like to make a shallow dado (like 1/8 deep) on the under side of the top after making the mortises so that the leg is somewhat housed in the top. I think it is a little sturdier.

Thank you Warren. The bench is just as you described it and the mortise is 3/4 wide and 2" long. Youre right - if I cut that mortise the way I was thinking - along its LENGTH - Id be going across the grain and that isnt going to work well (if at all). I completely missed that and should have seen it for myself. So I think for this one, Ill have to stay with the method FWW recommended in their plan. But Ill get a 1/4" Narex from LV next time I place an order and practice the two-pass technique you suggested (going WITH the grain). I think that will be very useful to learn. Also, the plan had me cut a 1/8 dado on the bottom side, just as you recommend. It really is rock solid!

Thanks everyone for your help and advice. I really appreciate it!

Fred

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Warren's technique is exactly what I've used when I had to make something wide, it's certainly much faster for me on harder woods, as you can sink a quarter-inch chisel quite deep quite quickly, and the remaining waste in the middle can be knocked out quite easily.

Once mortises start getting as big as you're talking about, though, I start thinking hard about drilling out the waste and then paring to fit.

[Brian Holcombe]

I cut some rather large mortises 3/4 mortises recently and used a 1/2 chisel. I basically cut a 1/2" mortise then went back and knocked out the remainder with the same chisel.

[lowell holmes]

This will stir up a bit, but you can chop a 3/4" mortise with a 3/4" bench or firmer chisel. I've made 7 rocking chairs that have 1" through mortises in the arms.
I used 1" bench chisels in each case.


I learned to do it at woodworking classes that Paul Sellers conducted.

[Jim Koepke]

I would use a 3/4 wide for a 3/4 mortise

better yet get one of these

Your local Wood Craft may have one. The online store listed NO 3/4 mortise chisels at all. That’s hard to believe. I bought mine there but a long time ago.

You could look at these (they are supposed to be the cat’s meow but I have not had the pleasure).

It is always easy to spend someone else's money.

Warren's approach is simple and easy. It is also less prone to error.

A bench chisel can do the job. For deep mortising the heavier the chisel the better, imo.

Lacking a dedicated mortise chisel drilling the waste and cleaning up with bench chisels is a good way to save money. Unless you plan on doing a lot of 3/4" mortises spending a lot of money on a one use tool is folly.

If you plan on doing a lot of mortising, buy the mortise chisels you need. You will be happier in the long run.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Mark the limits of the mortise with a box cutter knife, make a knife wall as they say on the ends, bore 5/8" holes, and then clean it up with a 3/4" bench or firmer chisel.

If you sneak up on it, it should be good.

Besides, Lee Valley has 3/4" mortise chisels in their online catalog for about $50.

[Winton Applegate]

IN HARD WOODS I agree the BAC (Big A . . . Chisel) may be a bit much to drive and rarely if ever used again.

I haven't done a lot of mortise work. The double row of narrow may be a humdinger I need to try that.

I must say the times I have "done the logical thing" and pre drilled my mortises I have HATED the way it felt to chisel the waste. The chisel was going all over the place and felt out of control.
For me I like the way a well made (side tapered and tall front to back chisel feels).
I think if I were to machine drill my mortises on a regular basis I would just get a NICE power mortising machine. I mean why drill it and then pare it when one pass with the drill will do both. Money I guess but a few nice mortising chisels would pay for a mortising machine. Maybe a used Powermatic. I looked long and hard at them back when I was still considering a nice cabinet table saw and a power jointer (8 inch).

After doing some real hand tool woodworking and studying it a whole lot I found I didn't even need/want a table saw or a mortising machine. I have a cheepy Delta table saw I bought on damaged sale and went through it and fettled the hell out of it to make it pretty darned precise but I hardly use it.

My power bandsaw, my cutting table and the nice circular saw with the straight edge guide does it all for me as far as power tools. I have my floor drill press more for metal working than woodworking.