Borrowing from another discipline

[Bruce Mack]

I just completed and mailed a gift box with a coopered walnut top finished with Tru Oil, a product for gunstocks, well known too in luthiery circles. It's a good finish, easy to apply and going from a shine to a sheen with steel wool and wax. Beginning another project with more complex curves I decided to model it in pine before committing to hardwoods. On a shelf sits a Mercury hoof rasp, 14 inches long and 1 3/4 wide, a gift from my wife's farrier. This is the Crocodile Dundee of rasps. It cuts nicely, not splintering, and should be good for the shaped sides.
There must be scores of examples of woodworking tools adapted from other trades. Anything you'd like to pass along?

[george wilson]

I like the looks of Tru Oil,and tried it once on a violin. The violin hung up for months before I got around to rubbing it and stringing the instrument. Some months later,I saw that the feet of the bridge had sunk all the way down to the BARE WOOD. There was NO finish left under the bridge's feet.So,I can't trust it on instruments. I have it on a flintlock pistol I made,but a much thinner finish. I'd be afraid of leaving an instrument with Tru Oil on it in a case. The velvet lining might print it. It apparently never gets real hard.

[Brian Holcombe]

I met a canoe paddle builder who used Tru-Oil on his paddles and it was a really gorgeous finish. Had me wondering how practical it would be to use on furniture.

Edit;

George, is Tru-Oil a finish that requires regular reapplication?

[george wilson]

I don't know. I haven't had to re apply it to my flintlock pistol. I'm not sure how good a finish it is for canoe paddles. I'd be more inclined to use somrthing known to be water resistant and tough,like a spar varnish,or polyurethane spar varnish(Which I don't like because you can't rub poly finishes. You'll see the different layers due to the gassing between coats.

[Stanley Covington]

Dental picks. Change angles and grinds for detailing carvings. Pakistani ones cheap but are too soft.

[Shawn Pixley]

Microplanes. Used in cooking for zesting oranges and the like. I use it for fine forming.

[Shawn Pixley]

Dental picks. Change angles and grinds for detailing carvings. Pakistani ones cheap but are too soft.

I agree. I picked up a box on 150 or so off the site that must not be named for about 30$ all in. I modify some for doing inlay. They are great to cleaning the ends of stringing. I don't mind modifying them either.

[Winton Applegate]

I will say that I borrow woodworking tecniques (measuring / layout / story stick like ideas) (not measuring but just transfering actuall fits) for my metal working and learning real woodworking HAS MADE ME A BETTER / FASTER metal worker.

PS: come to think of it I turn and thread wood on my metal lathe from time to time. Beleive it or not ebony takes threads nice on the metal lathe.

Sorry for the poor photo of the threads. An old photo taken for general demonstration.

[george wilson]

Winton,I LIKE your lathe because it is belt drive. My first DECENT lathe was a 1024 Jet belt drive. I could make finishes with it that looked nickel plated due to the belt drive.(Still can with my Hardinge HLVH belt driven lathe). However,I sold that lathe,still like new,to help raise money for my present 16 x 40" gear head lathe. I wish I hadn't sold it. The gear head lathes are the only ones you can get these days in decent sizes. Everyone is gear head crazy. They are easier to change the speeds on,and you don't have to touch dirty black belts,but they just don't deliver finishes as smooth as a belt drive. At least,the gear head lathes I can AFFORD do not. Some very expensive manual lathes do,which are no longer made,like DSG's. Others leave faint "echoes" of gear meshings on their surfaces,which I don't like.

My HLVH is a very great lathe,which I'd never sell,but the 1024 Jet had a larger selection of threads. The HLVH goes from 11 to 56 threads. The Jet went from 8 to 112,I think. Anyway,a much larger range. Now,I can't find one to buy(though I don't REALLY need it). I mean,I have 2 lathes and 3 milling machines. But,the Jet would be a nice lathe to find again.

So,hang onto your belt lathe if you decide to get a larger one,if you can afford to do so. You will not be able to replace it,except with a much too light model with a flimsy tailstock,and a difficult to manage QC box(where you have to re arrange the gear train to get the QC to cut the full range of the threads it is capable of(I don't know WHY some of them are so poorly engineered). Plus,the new lathe will likely be Chinese,and yours may be Taiwan if it is older. My Jet was bought in 1974,and was Taiwan. A very satisfactory little lathe.

BTW,I use all kinds of metal working tools for wood working. Too many to list,and I keep inventing them anyway.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks George!

[John T Barker]

Microplanes. Used in cooking for zesting oranges and the like. I use it for fine forming.

I thought that was a woodworking tool first. Good for garlic too I believe.

[Winton Applegate]

yours may be Taiwan

Yep, you are correct sir , Taiwan.
Good stuff.
Interesting about how the belt is a sooth power transfer but the gear pitch shows up telegraphed on to the work.

PS: I realize how important your time is but if you have any particularly favorite metal working practices that translate to wood I am sure there isn't a person here who isn't waiting with abated breath to read about it.
It would really make this thread shine.

[george wilson]

Well,i have posted before how I use a metal lathe with a router fixed to the tool post for cutting threads. I have done this on all sizes of threads,from the giant apple press to 3/8" diameter wooden thumb screws for marking gauges we made for the Historic Area. I have had to make the special taps for these threads,though. At least for the normal,smaller sizes.

The correct angle for wood threads is 90º,not 60º,like all the present day wood threading kits make. The 90º angle makes a stronger thread for wood,which is not so easily chipped off at the peaks.

Using a milling machine works quite well too. Although my vertical mill only reaches about 4000 RPM,the mill is so rigid,it works great on wood for routing. It cuts quite cleanly,without going 22,000 RPM,like a normal wood router. I like the fact that with the slower speed,it does not throw chips and dust all over the place. I just keep a vacuum hose on the work,and get away pretty cleanly. This use of mills for woodworking has become so common that Grizzly started offering a special mill for wood working. It runs faster than usual. Not sure if they still offer it or not.

Since my Hardinge HLVH will go 3000 RPM,the same as my Oliver wood lathe,it is great for generating accurate straight columns of wood for threading,or odd size dowels. I have used it for making handles and other smaller work. I have a half baked tool rest for using wood lathe tools freehand,not only on wood,but even for steel projects which are contoured,such as small hammer heads. In the very old days,metal lathes were often just like wood lathes,with no cross slides or compounds. They were of necessity free hand turning lathes. Watch makers sometimes use freehand turning tools in miniature.

[Winton Applegate]

Oh, cool ! Thanks.

90° thread
Like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_thread_form) ?

PS: I didn't do these on mine because my Grangers brass "Control Knobs" were already threaded when I got them. All I did was counter bore them to make shallow "mortise" sockets for the ebony vise handles to seat into and duplicate the male version of the thread on my handles. Not ideal but in this application so far so good.

[george wilson]

NO!!! Winton,NOT a square thread,a 90º VEE thread!! They had a big press in the book binder's shop that some misguided person had made such a wooden square thread on years ago. The threads broke off in chunks. We made a proper 90º vee thread and a new nut for their big book press.

I can't find the picture of the bookbinder's screw. This is the cider press screw. You might be able to see the 90º Vee threads on it. Also,I mentioned I have to make the taps for special screws I have had to make for various projects. These have ranged from 3/8" to 1" in diameter. Here are a few of my taps. They are sort of rough and ready,with the hardening and tempering colors left on them. Just made as needed,not made as ends in themselves. They are accurate,though,which is all I wanted. You may be able to see the 90 deg. threads on them. One is a double ended tap with right hand threads on one end,and left hand on the other. I made it to make those wooden cooper's compasses with,which have a central screw in them that is threaded both ways. I have no pictures of the compasses,though. They only have to be adjustable for a relatively short range,as they are used to step off distances,not scribe circles.

Note the large size of the threads in relation to their diameter,as is proper for wood threads. Modern threading sets are not correct: They make the threads smaller,like metal threads. Look how large the threads on the smallest tap are. I was making a direct copy of an 18th. C. embroidery frame,and copied its threads accurately. It was made of Violet wood.

[Winton Applegate]

First photo : That ought to do the job ! ! !


90º VEE thread
Threads larger in proportion to dia than metal
Be ware of modern thread sets / not correct / not same as old time

Thanks for the education I think I am starting to get it now.

I sure hope there are groups of young people some where learning this stuff.
Not here.
The young guy who works with me (goes off to college this fall); he was trying to get some body to sharpen a knife for him or talking about it. I said that I would BUT that I saw it as one of the rights of passage young men need to struggle with and over come. He knows I will help him. That was months ago. He won’t even try. (He said he was in The Boy Scouts and claims he sharpened a knife while hanging with them.)
Apparently it is a group effort; no one person can do it outside of THE TEAM.

Five of us were unloading a truck the other day and the boxes on the pallets were wrapped with that clear cling wrap like stuff. The oldest guy, my age, asked if any body had a knife. He was showing me some of his switch blades a few weeks earlier. I said you do. He said he didn’t carry those around.
Nobody but me even had a pocket knife. Let alone a sharp one.
I didn’t answer (I was temporarily too depressed by the lack of pocket knives to respond) . . . so he went back to the building to get a box knife.
In the mean time I asked Mr. Young Guy how his sharpening was coming and surely HE now had a sharp pocket knife.
Nope.
As the gofer was just about back with the box knife I pulled out my pocket knife and cut the wrap.
I can be a dick when I am around such_______ I don’t even have a word for it.

Anyway thanks for educating THIS old dude. I will try to remember it and pass it on.

[george wilson]

It's even worse in England. You can get arrested for carrying a pocket knife. They arrested a newspaper delivery guy who had a pocket knife necessary for cutting the cord on bundles of newspapers.

It's just stupidly depressing,how much freedom they have lost over there.

I carried my Leatherman,but kept it out of sight. It's a good thing I did,because in 3 different hotels,it was surprising how much stuff did not work in the rooms. And,no one seemed to be able to get the staff to fix anything. Well,it was just water and electricity,what the heck. I couldn't wait to get out of there and back here.

[Tom Vanzant]

Same thing in Scotland. The guys in the shop in Aberdeen sharpened a hacksaw blade to slice into the neoprene jacket of a hose bundle. When I offered them my Swiss Army knife, it was as though I had handed them a viper, but they did accept and use it. Only woodsmen and gameskeepers are deemed needing of knives there.

[Daniel Rode]

I'm not *that* old but even when I was a kid in the 70s leaving the house without a pocket knife was irresponsible. I carried one to school all the way through. I believe the rule was that we were not allowed a pocket knife with a blade longer than our palm.

We live in a world I no longer understand.

[David Weaver]

I was a kid 10 years later than that, and as I recall back then, you could carry a pocket knife and you wouldn't get in trouble. There were kids who would bring "survival knives" with compasses to school (that was a fad back then) from time to time and as long as they didn't get them out and flash them around, I don't remember getting any grief for them, though I never too mine to school. If you kept them in the sheath or just took them out to look at them or empty the contents from the handle, that was OK. The only things that weren't allowed were switch blades, nunchucks and butterfly knives, and back then, half the kids had butterfly knives and nunchucks. When the knives were banned, then people started bringing butterfly combs instead, which made the teachers not-so-happy because they looked like a butterfly knife until they were opened.

[george wilson]

Up in Alaska we carried sheath knives if we wanted. No one got stabbed. I made a very bad looking Bowie knife in school shop,out of a piece of 1/16" thick sawmill bandsaw blade. It was the only tool steel I could lay hands on. It was so bad looking,made that thin,that I immediately lost interest in it. I think I left it laying around in the shop.

In the 7th. Grade,in Alaska,we had an old non commissioned Army officer,Mr. Byers,as a teacher. He instituted the belt line. Every Friday,those who had gotten into trouble during the week had to run the belt line. He just said "No motorcycle belts". It was an excellent deterrent. More humiliation than actual pain as you ran it getting swatted across the rear end!! Most swats missed. Everyone respected that belt line.

He took 2 of us,me and another student,who won a spelling contest,seal hunting in his small boat. He made me stand up while firing his high powered rifle in the choppy ocean. I missed the target,a rock on the shore,not knowing how hard the rifle was going to kick me overboard at the time. I had not fired a high powered rifle at that time. No earplugs,of course!!:)

[Jim Koepke]

...
In the 7th. Grade,in Alaska,we had an old non commissioned Army officer,Mr. Byers,as a teacher. He instituted the belt line.
...
He took 2 of us,me and another student,who won a spelling contest,seal hunting in his small boat. He made me stand up while firing his high powered rifle in the choppy ocean.
...

In todays world, Mr. Byers would likely be either in court or prison.

Some of the things teachers did a few decades ago to advance the maturity of their students are frowned upon today.

I recall visits by students to one of our high school teacher's home on Saturdays. Another thing that is likely "out of bounds" in todays paranoid society.

jtk

[george wilson]

Well,at the time,Mr. Byers was a well liked and effective teacher. We are nurturing a nation of incredibly soft kids these days.

I am in favor of some of the things being done today,like stopping bullies. But,when a kid gets kicked out of school for eating his pop tart into the shape of a gun,it has just gone insanely too far. Lord help us if there is another World War.

I actually had a chemistry teacher in college who asked me to make a missing rear sight for his revolver. I carried it in my notebook over to the art department,where my sculpture teacher,quite a liberal (but not by today's standards),presided. He saw me making the sight and fitting it to the pistol. Nothing was said. I never took it out or showed it to anyone else while carrying it to classes. I returned the gun to the teacher,who said it shot quite straight. End of event. Try that today!! This was about 1962.

[Jim Koepke]

Try that today!! This was about 1962.

A century earlier, kids likely carried small caliber rifles to school so they could hunt rabbits on the way home to have some meat on the table.

jtk

[george wilson]

I heard about ROTC students who kept their rifles in their cars so they could go to shooting practice after school.

When I started teaching shop in 1963,there was an incident that sent the entire school running and screaming through the halls. I mean total panic: Some kid took a piece of pipe from his locker,and broke another kid's head with it. Took the assistant principal over an hour to find the pipe. The little thug had cooly put it back into his locker. Blood everywhere.

That was the first time I ever saw anything like that in a school. A rude awakening for me,after I had been in college 4 years. Before that,there might have been fist fights,but nothing thugish like that in high school.

There were some other incidents I can't describe here,but they did not involve violence. All of them were new to me. Trashy behavior between boys and girls.

[Tom Vanzant]

In the early-mid 1950s, several of us had dove-hunting gear in our cars at school...went straight to the fields after classes. No problem with it at all. Of course, that was the time when any punishment you got for misbehaving at school was nothing compared to what was meted out when you got home. Then Dr. Spock told us that was bad for little developing children....see where that got us now?

[george wilson]

Back then,you did not dare to tell your parents that you got disciplined at school. At least,no one I knew did!!:)

[Winton Applegate]

That can have a palpable kick back as well.

I remember I fell under the evil influence of "Bruce". He had a smirk that wouldn't quit and quite a funny guy actually. Grade school. We bent good size nails into a U shape and shot them with stout rubber bands. You know how little fads pop up. Anyway I guess they decided to draw the line when he and I shot a few in library class up at the pin up board near the ceiling. Ripped that construction paper a few feet before they stopped I can tell you.

That same day I had the enlightening experience of finding out what a cricket bat with holes in it feels like when applied at high velocity to my gluteus maximus.

I think Bruce got it worse than I did. They realized he was the instigator. I wasn't crying but he sure was when he came out of the principle's office. I liked the principle. He was a good person even if he had that bat.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT I CAME BACK HERE TO ASK
Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer wants to know if anyone has traveled in Germany or Switzerland and the state of the hotel facilities there. We are betting they don't put up with inoperable amenities in Switzerland but she says Germany may have slipped. I am voting both are responsible.
What say you all ?

[george wilson]

I think I'd be bankrupted very quickly in Switzerland. In the late 80's.an American harpsichord maker working in Switzerland visited me. He said an 8" pizza and a pony size bottle of beer there was $30.00. Even ditch diggers made $50.00 equivalent an hour. So,how could I possibly afford a room,even if the water and electricity,and possibly even the HEAT worked!!:)

I wish I had had the money to go to Europe back in the 60's. An old German guitar maker told me you used to could get the best spruce guitar top in Germany for $2.50. I felt like the poor relatives when I was in Italy and England several years ago. I'll take Italy any time,by the way,even though I don't speak much Italian. Many of them speak enough English,fortunately.

They wanted 80 pounds to go into St. Peter's in London(160 a couple!),and the same to go aboard the Cutty Sark,which has now burned,unfortunately. We didn't go aboard because I thought it would just mostly be full of tea crates. Aboard the HMS Victory in Portsmouth,they were quite poor in budget. They had only one working flintlock for their signal cannon. I'd make one for them if I had the dimensions of the mount on the cannon (and the energy). I did see them for sale for $400.00,somewhere. Talk about esoteric things for sale!

I don't know how people afford to live over there.