Hollow Body Electric Guitar

[Julie Moriarty]

Last night we went to a Boz Scaggs concert. I found myself intensely aware of the instruments the band members were playing, the effect of building guitars I suppose. In a few of the songs, Bozz had a Sakashita hollow body guitar. Taku Sakashita was known for making very high quality instruments. I started wondering how much effect the hollow body and the top wood had on the amplified sound. Critical analysis by some concluded the amplification drowned out any effect at all.

Still, I wondered what kind of wood was used for the top, how thick it was and why Boz seemed to prefer the hollow body over the solid body. Anyone care to take a guess?


http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/BozScaggs_c01_zps91c3eafb.jpg

[george wilson]

That type guitar is really solid down the center,so it is essentially a solid body guitar. The larger body would be comfortable for someone who was used to playing an acoustic,or other guitar larger than the usual solid body type.

It appears to be made of maple veneers,glued up and formed inro an arch top and back,like the similar Gibson thin line( as they were called) 335 type guitars.

I must say,I don't care for the deformed soundhole. Can't see the other one. There is nothing about it that is attractive or graceful.

[george wilson]

Julie,most tops like this one are between 1/8" thick(for old Gretsch guitars like I made a copy of,model 6120),and up to 3/16" for others.

These 2 arch tops I made are typical of the 1950's. They are full depth bodied guitars with 1/8" thick plywood tops. Yes,plywood sounds better in an electric guitar. Adds a little more sustain.

Each of these guitars has a spruce strut going under each foot of their bridges. 2 per top. They are not made for the super high volume playing that is done today,as they can start vibrating,and cause feed back. They have a nice combination of electric tone,but assisted by the timbre of their bodies.

The original 1958 Gretsch which I copied here(The old ones cost about $10,000.00,so I made myself one. It has no label inside,or serial number stamped on it like the real ones),had a wooden,arched "bridge" under the string's bridge on top of the body. Chet Atkins wanted this to help eliminate feedback. I left it out of this guitar,because I think it makes the guitar sound too "hard". I had an original Gretsch Anniversary model from 1958 that did have this internal bridge. I traded it off because it sounded too hard.

I think the more modern 335 style guitars,which really are pretty solid down the center of their bodies,sound too hard,too. But,I am not playing on stage in really loud situations. The orange guitar in the picture,is the guitar,of all the ones I have(about 19),that I keep going back to. It's tone is just right.

[Julie Moriarty]

When I was watching the performance and my mind wandered to the guitars they were playing, I was trying to figure out why Boz chose the "hollowed out" guitars and his lead guitarist preferred the solid body. The lead guitarist was every bit as good as Boz and maybe even better. I found myself wondering if the decision each made was simply a matter of aesthetics or if they felt the guitars they chose to play gave them the sound they wanted to produce?

I've read guitars built by Taku Sakasihta (or Sakashta), like the one Boz was playing, originally sold for $20K-$35K. That's a lot of money and my guess is most of the cost comes from the aesthetics.

Anyway, I couldn't make out the wood from where we were sitting and I got to wondering if using Sitka spruce and making the top very thin would enhance the sound at all. I saw one solid body build where the luthier used Sitka spruce for the body in the hopes there would be an improvement in sound. I never read that it did. Obviously, with the need for solid wood through the center of the body, much of the sound the hollow produces would be negatively affected.

I guess the big question for me is if I ever decided to make a thinline-type electric guitar, would it be more practical to focus on aesthetics or is there some value in choosing soundboard-type wood for the top and being attentive to the thickness of the wood and the amount and placement of the hollows?

[george wilson]

I would not worry too much about the soundboard material. Just buy a pre formed arch top and back from Stewart Macdonald and use it.

When I made my Gretsch copy,you could buy REAL left over Gretsch tops and backs for $15.00 each,from the ex vise president of Gretsch. After the fire that brought the company to a close,he bought up the remaining pallets full of backs,sides,pick guards,and peghead overlays,and was selling them. This was back in the 80's. I bought my top,back,peghead overlay,and pick guard from him for about $15.00 each. I made the sides,soundholes,neck and fingerboard. I found some original Gretsch filtertron pickups. I actually made the brass knobs,after making a steel punch that duplicated the G with an arrow through it. I have lost that punch,but it has to be in the shop somewhere.

These days,you'll have to pay the much higher price for the Stewmac tops and backs.

The alternative would be to carve the top and back. For an electric,I advise the use of the plywood ones you can buy. The sustain is better,even if it seems like the guitar is cheaper made. That guitar that Scaggs is playing is made of plywood. Either that,or the maker carved the top out of maple,which doesn't seem likely. And,the 2 halves of the top don't even look book matched. I can't see the money for that guitar that you have mentioned.

I have another arch top I made as an acoustic. It is carved top and back. The top is spruce,and the back and sides are curly maple. I tried a nice,vintage Gibson Johnny Smith pickup on it,and it does not make a great electric. The tone hasn't enough sustain for electric playing. Acoustically,it is just fine,which was what it was made for,after all. I can post pictures if you wish.

[John Coloccia]

Taku was a brilliant builder and probably would have gone on to be regarded as highly as Bennedetto et al. He was murdered a few years ago...mugged for the couple of bucks in his pocket.

Check out the rest of his work, George. This particular design is a bit bland, but most of his work is stunning and elegant. I've gotten some great ideas from him.

[Shawn Pixley]

As George said Boz' guitar is a semi-hollow body. The block down the middle anchors the bridge / stop tailpiece. These are generally better on stage than a pure hollowbody at rock stage volumes especially in the past. Currently with the state of sound reinforcement and in ear monitors, the true hollowbodies do not have as much problem with feedback. I have a 335 that is one of my favorite guitars to play on stage. I also have a '65 Gretch double anniversary that I really can't play on stage without the risk of awful feedback. My friends in the Rangehoods used to play with a pair of Guild X-175's from the '50's. They needed to be very careful with stage volumes. The guitarist from the Jesus and Mary Chain, made a living off the sound of a hollowbody feeding back. You can imagine the challenges of feedback with humming single coils, microphonic pickups, and loud stage volumes.

The other challenge with hollowbodies is that it is easy for the bridge to slip if you hit the strings hard. Some players pin the bridge but I have resisted that so far. Others put a bit of cello rosen under the bridge plate that provides enough friction to keep it in place with out marring the guitar nor putting pins in the soundboard.

[Shawn Pixley]

There are a few people out there who make semi-hollow and hollow bodied tops out of carved solid maple rather than laminated. When building a semi-hollowbody guitar this way, would you start off as it you were building a solid body (thick maple cap on the body) with the body being bent sides, a back (presumably not yet carved), and center block? Getting everything aligned before carving the top and back?

It would seem to me that this would ensure you had a strong connection of the top and back to the center block and sides. If carving beforehand, the carving / shaping of the center block to fit the top connection might be very challenging if you didn't have a jig for it (I'm presuming bigger manufacturers do have a jig or CNC).

[george wilson]

It just takes a little skill,Shawn. I pre carve the top and back with no special jigs to put them in place. But,I have always warned everyone that I do a lot of things the hard way!!:)
I googled him,John. He was a very prolific builder. Too bad that loser murdered him. His work was very accurate and well finished. I can't say I always share his sense of aesthetics,but he did make very fine instruments.

[Julie Moriarty]

Taku was a brilliant builder and probably would have gone on to be regarded as highly as Bennedetto et al. He was murdered a few years ago...mugged for the couple of bucks in his pocket.

Check out the rest of his work, George. This particular design is a bit bland, but most of his work is stunning and elegant. I've gotten some great ideas from him.

While at the concert, I was trying to figure out what the logo on Boz's guitar was. When I got home the next day I found out he was playing a Sakashta and I did some research on him. That's when I found out about the murder and read the story. It was said Taku was working on a guitar for Boz when he was murdered by a career criminal who had over 30 arrests at the time of the robbery/murder.

After that a lot of musicians got together and held a concert for him and I read what they had to say about him. Comments such as yours, John, were very common. I read he was very meticulous with his builds and that he had been making guitars for about 25 years. What I didn't see was specific reasons, other than what I mentioned, as to why he was such a great builder. Besides Boz Scaggs, Robben Ford is the only well known guitarist I could find who plays Sakashta guitars.

Taku was 43 at the time of the murder and had been working with Boz for 10 years at that time. Why hadn't his guitars gotten into the hands of more artists? The Internet is filled with stories of his murder but it's a bit harder to find out what made him a great luthier.

[John Coloccia]

While at the concert, I was trying to figure out what the logo on Boz's guitar was. When I got home the next day I found out he was playing a Sakashta and I did some research on him. That's when I found out about the murder and read the story. It was said Taku was working on a guitar for Boz when he was murdered by a career criminal who had over 30 arrests at the time of the robbery/murder.

After that a lot of musicians got together and held a concert for him and I read what they had to say about him. Comments such as yours, John, were very common. I read he was very meticulous with his builds and that he had been making guitars for about 25 years. What I didn't see was specific reasons, other than what I mentioned, as to why he was such a great builder. Besides Boz Scaggs, Robben Ford is the only well known guitarist I could find who plays Sakashta guitars.

Taku was 43 at the time of the murder and had been working with Boz for 10 years at that time. Why hadn't his guitars gotten into the hands of more artists? The Internet is filled with stories of his murder but it's a bit harder to find out what made him a great luthier.

There are only a handful of famous musicians, and there are a LOT of guitars out there. David Myka is another world class builder that doesn't show up a lot. Ron Kirn....Terry McInturff. These are all great builders, and fairly well known too. Terry has built a LOT of guitars, but I couldn't name one well known artist that plays a McInturff.

For some builders, their lifetime output might be somewhere in the range of 100 to 400 guitars. Fender probably makes that in a day. It's just a numbers thing.

[David Weaver]

I never had a lot of love for semi-hollow guitars. They look like a hollowbody guitar, but if they have the same pickups and hardware as a solid body guitar, there isn't much difference in their plugged sound.

As far as the super high dollar builders go, it reminds me of straight razors. There are custom makers making straight razors one off for $1000+ per, but they are about as capable as a $100 factory made razor that doesn't have flaws. Guitars at that level of expense are about reputation and relationship between the builder and the customers. 10% mechanics and 90% jewelry and status. Maybe there is some mix of a builder doing everything by hand and expecting to be paid well, but I don't know what a lot of those guys do.

It's a development of the modern world, because the makers of the fine instruments in the 1950s or so didn't get so much out of average customers.

I'd imagine that for most builders, getting the reputation so that mediocre players with a lot of money (as a local dealer put it to me here, "most of my customers can play three songs and sit in a corner office") buy is probably the best proposition.

[george wilson]

In the 15th. C.,David,such poor musicians were described as being able to "Scrape out a few allemandes and boast of their own poverty".:)

I used to teach shop in a school across the street from a music store. I was over there a lot,and did all their repair work and refinishing at the time. I was about 22 then,and very active.

Anyhow,there was an old guy who wore overalls,was obviously not educated,and didn't look like he had 2 dimes to rub together. But,I swear,no exaggeration,honest,every week he was back at the store,trading in his last expensive Gibson,or other good brand of guitar,and buying another. I have no idea how he afforded it.

I had a customer in North Carolina,who regularly bought 5 guitars a year from me. He had built a nice little building to keep all his guitars in. Unfortunately,it was not heated. He would not let me come into his large house,saying there was barely a path through it!!

[Julie Moriarty]

If you can get a great guitarist to play one of your guitars you'll sell more and can charge more. The quality really doesn't have to be there. It just has to be good enough to play well enough to satisfy the owner. I've had some suggest to me I should try to get one of my guitars into the hands of someone well known locally. If I was 30 years younger, that may have appealed to me, but for right now, I just want to learn the intricacies of what makes a guitar a great guitar.

I see people nuts about the Fender logo. And they want what David Gilmour or Jeff Beck or Stevie Ray Vaughn plays (or played). As if having the same looking guitar as one of the great artists plays makes you great too. I understand that in the impressionable youth, but as you get older you'd think that would naturally fade. But that's not always the case.

But when I hear a great guitarist sing the praises of a particular guitar builder I want to know what makes that guitar builder so great. Robben Ford said, "Taku Sakashta made some guitars for me that I fooled with, but they never quite clicked. But this particular guitar I’m playing all the time now." I guess it's like trying to explain why you like this shade of blue over that.

[John Coloccia]

Robben Ford is well known for two things:

1) his playing
2) his tone

By and large, he's only really played a handful of guitars during his solo career. There was the Fender Robben Ford model (also called the Esprit) and I think a Baker Robben Ford model too. Then there's his Telecaster....quite famous. He's also played a handful of Les Pauls and 335s. And now there's Taku's "Noupaul" model. Robben is a very very very picky guy. :)

Honestly, though, I've played the Fender Robben Ford model. I really just didn't like it that much. I thought it was a too bright, but that works well through the Dumble he plays. The Dumble has a big bass response. Robben also has a light touch and knows how to use his tone control. I would imagine most people would sound awful through a lot of his gear.

[george wilson]

I am always going back to that orange Gretsch model I made. It just sounds right.

I haven't played a Dumble,but I did buy myself a Standel tube amp a few years ago. It was considered the world's best amp back in the 50,s. Only about 50 were ever made. All the great players had one. Chet Atkins,Johnny Mathis,Buddy Merrill(sp?)(of Lawrence Welk's orchestra), everyone I can think of.

Mine is an exact copy of the originals,right down to having an original JBL 15" speaker with the aluminum dome. They are made by a very nice guy in California,named Kinney,who worked with the old owner,IIRC,and bought or inherited the company name.

It is only for clean playing,and it is so crystal clear,it will pick out little mistakes in your playing like no other amp ever made. It does not have a big bass,but I jack it through my Roland Jazz Chorus 120,and the tone is perfectly reproduced,but with great bass. I have had about 25 amps,and this is the most remarkable outfit I ever had. It is not for rock,though. I never could play rock.

Standel lost out when players started playing distorted. They listened to their engineers instead of musicians. And,when they went solid state (In the 60's,I guess),they made little cast,solid "cubes" with their transistors in them,so no one could copy them,I suppose. When the electronic values of those cubes drifted a bit, their amps started making noises,and no replacements.

[John Coloccia]

The Dumble ODS kind of sounds like a cranked Fender Bassman, but with more gain and a really tight bass. The clean channel is very "stiff" and not particularly forgiving...very uncompressed. If you like playing acoustically (like me) you'll like the clean channel too because it is very dynamic and reproduces nuances very well. If you like a more forgiving, Marshall kind of compressed sound, you would HATE the Dumble and you'll find it difficult to control in terms of getting nice, even sounds out of it. It sounds like the Standel is similar.

I had a Fuchs ODS for a while. That's basically a copy of the Dumble circuit. I really liked it, but it's very expensive and frankly, so many people have now gotten into that tone that I dumped it and now play through a Fender Blues Deluxe. I'm looking for another nice clean amp. I don't use amp overdrive anymore. It's just not convenient. It far more convenient to get whatever I need from a small pedal board. The Blues Deluxe is nice...breaks up a little early and it's a bit raunchy. It's perfect for a nice, bluesy tone with just a little grit. I really need a good, loud clean amp now, though. I just got rid of a Fender Twin...it's just too loud, AND way too heavy.

I'm thinking of just designing one, actually, and adding it to my product line. I have features in mind that no one else is doing, I think.

Here's the Dumble in action. Nice tone, but it can get fatiguing after a while unless you're a really nuanced player and turn the gain way back. The Dumble is the second one, but also on this clip is a Bruno. They make some of the nicest clean amps today.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnOSCxxtXa8

[george wilson]

It is hard to really tell anything about the Dumble over a video,with some rocker playing a bit distorted. But,thank you for putting it up.

I can't play right now due to a worn out and very painful right thumb joint(from finger picking for 60 years),and two broken fingers on my right hand. I don't know if they are eve going to get better. At least I'm left handed. But,I was trying to do something the other day,and my hand felt more like a club than anything useful.

[Julie Moriarty]

You never get this kind of in depth talk any where else. You guys rock! And roll. ;)

Now get your butt over to the bass thread and tell me if I'm in for a disaster. :p

[Shawn Pixley]

I've never had the opportunity to play a Standel, but I like the Dumble. I had the pleasure of playing a Matchless DC30 which is an outstanding amp. Tweed and blackface Twins can get a decent sound but they are too loud and can get very shrill easily. There are a few Mesa models with good dynamic clean sounds but the heavy metal line I hate (as I do Marshalls).

Unlike John, I favor power tube overdrive rather than pedals for a dirty sound. For this, I favor low power, Class A amps such a Tweed Champ (5F1) and mic it through the PA or in an amp closet in the studio. AC30's and Hiwatts (vintage) are nice sounding, but like twins are too loud and too heavy. I used to play a 1970 Ampeg 4x10 but it proved unreliable. Lately I've used a Mesa 5/25 express through a VHT Pitbull 2x12 closed back cabinet. It has two class A 5 watt channels. I run one clean with some reverb, the other I run dirty but in Class A so it has a lot of dynamics. Play softly it has a creamy sound, hit the strings hard and you get a great growl. Currently, I am not using any pedals, and have a real simple signal chain.

[george wilson]

I have a Matchless DC 30,but it really is an amp for rock and roll. Mine is covered in burgundy colored leather. It weighs a ton,from the chassis being made of thick steel,ceramic tube sockets,and a massive 12" Celestion speaker. The Standel 25L15 is no lightweight either at 65# for a not real high powered amp(25 watts). It's that 15" heavy JBL speaker that does it. Mine has the usual cream colored covering like most of the originals.

[Shawn Pixley]

Yes, an amp for rock & roll, but that is what I play most. Of course, there are almost an infinite number of sounds in "rock & roll." This can range from pure noise distortion to the cleanest sound possible.

Chassis, speakers and output transformers are the heavy items. Nearly all good amps are pretty heavy unless it is a very low wattage amp. There is a cottage industry for very low watt amps (1/8 to 1/4 watt). But they are for getting power tube saturation at low sound levels.

[george wilson]

The cleanest sound possible that I have found,after being an amp pig for many years,is the Standel ,followed by the Roland JC 120. The 120 is more forgiving of little playing technique mistakes,though,because it is not as clean as the Standel. It will mimic the Standel perfectly,if the Standel is jacked into it. Mr. McKinney graciously sent me a special cord that jacks the chassis of the Standel directly into the JC 120.

I love the sound of the older JC 120,s aluminum dome speakers so much,I bought about 5 just to have on hand. I'm thinking about building an aux. speaker cabinet,using one of these speakers for the Standel,just to see how the amp sounds through it. The 15" JBL does not "propagate" a lot,you see,leading to a surprising lack of bass response from such a large speaker. The 15" JBL that McKinney found for my amp(He has to hunt these expensive vintage JBL's down one at a time),is in immaculate condition. It is incredible how much treble response the 15" JBL has. It's due to the aluminum dome.

Unfortunately,the new Roland JC 120 amps do not have the aluminum dome speakers. I haven't played through one of them,but I'm pretty sure the upper range has suffered because of that(unless they've done something else to keep that response).

[Shawn Pixley]

There is a sort of "magic" that happens with certain amps and certain speakers. The Hiwatt amps and the Fane speakers give a particular sound that others have difficulty duplicating. The old Fender tweeds and the Jensons celestions in a closed back cabinet also have a desireable sound.

Somewhere I have an old Crown high end ower amp sitting around. I have run a guitar into it and then into single Altec Lansing speaker. It would give pretty perfect reproduction. There is no control except for volume and It had enough headroom that there was no distortion. I recorded it once by setting it up in one corner of a high school gym and then close micing it and another mic out in the gym through a second channel. It gave a really nice sound with the two tracks blended together.