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Lewis Ehrhardt
07-23-2014, 4:22 PM
I've had enough of the trovi takeovers on my computer [not really good with them] and all the constant updates every other hour. I have been using Windows started with 3.1, 95, on and on ad nauseum to now Windows 7. All my software is for Windows. BUT, if what I understand is right???, I can switch to a Mac and not have all the virus threats, updates and such?

Is this true? If so, the, I'm going to bite the bullet and switch.
To Mac users: I thinking mac pro, is there anything I need to know?

All I do is simple word processing, some blog reads and web browsings. Thanks for any help. lewis

Chuck Wintle
07-23-2014, 4:28 PM
I've had enough of the trovi takeovers on my computer [not really good with them] and all the constant updates every other hour. I have been using Windows started with 3.1, 95, on and on ad nauseum to now Windows 7. All my software is for Windows. BUT, if what I understand is right???, I can switch to a Mac and not have all the virus threats, updates and such?

Is this true? If so, the, I'm going to bite the bullet and switch.
To Mac users: I thinking mac pro, is there anything I need to know?

All I do is simple word processing, some blog reads and web browsings. Thanks for any help. lewis

yes you can buy a mac of +$2000 or you can load linux mint, for free, and enjoy the virus resistant quality of linux. linux mint, IMHO, is one of the best. It has an "MS office equivalent" suite as well called libre office.

William Adams
07-23-2014, 7:24 PM
Apple's OS was nicer back when it was NeXT/OPENstep.

One option is to purchase a copy of Parallels (or use Wine) to run your Windows software in a virtual partition which you can readily scrub free of viruses (you can use Wine under Linux as well).

I was actually kind of surprised that the Linux folks didn't make a bigger push when XP was EOL'd.

Phil Thien
07-23-2014, 9:34 PM
There are still updates on OS X but few viruses. Of course, that could change any time. Used to be the Apple Store employees would tell you there are no viruses and no need for anti-virus, they aren't allowed to say that any more. But that probably has more to do with legal (the legal dept.) advising against it.

Jim A Walters
07-24-2014, 12:39 AM
I switched to Mac at home about 5 or 6 years ago. I don't regret it and so glad I did it. It's the simplicity factor. Yes you can get Linux and find lower cost alternatives. You pay more for a Mac and OS X, but you spend your time using it and not fending off viruses or doing seemingly endless updates.

There are many Apple haters and I thought I'd never own an Apple either but Windows drove me to the point of looking for a better alternative. There is a small learning curve but it won't take long to be comfortable with it.

I'm an IT professional and use Windows at work for my primary and use other OS's on servers. I still like coming home to my Mac. It leaves more time for woodworking.

Jim

Rich Enders
07-24-2014, 1:19 AM
Our business started in 1988 and went with Mac when we "automated" the accounting shortly thereafter. Back then viruses were not such an issue, and the Mac decision was made based on the easy interface for our offices, and the fact that there became available a first class Mac ready accounting software (MYOB).

We have continued with Mac, and MYOB.

We have limited experience with Windows and other operating systems, but our offices seem comfortable with the Mac system. I read that the Mac is hacked less, but for the moment that has not an issue.

My office uses MacBook Airs with a 27 inch monitor for viewing engineering design files. Also the MacBook Air is light weight and travels well. We reviewed this decision recently, and the MacBook Pro has similar performance capability to the Air, but a significantly better screen clarity. The Pro is a bit bulkier for travel, but the screen clarity may trump all else.

Rich Riddle
07-24-2014, 7:57 AM
The Mac from which I am typing this response is a Pismo manufactured in 2000. Quite heavy but serves our home well. Our newest Mac is six or seven years old and the main one is now a decade old (we have five). Every once in a while we do an update but it's usually from a third-party software developer that needs to have their software updated. If you do a long-term analysis of the life-expectency and lack of problems, Macs cost far less the PC counterparts. Right now Mac is offering $200 off the prices of machines and $100 coupon if you purchase the computer for college or education. If you like having a CD/DVD slot, just make sure the model you select has one. Good luck with you decision no matter which way you go.

As far as Linux goes, we tried that and it wasn't nearly as easy as it seems. Look up Redhat if you decide to go that way.

Phil Thien
07-24-2014, 9:42 AM
I will say I enjoy my Macs but you have to be careful when it comes to software. For example, some of the CAD stuff I have will only run on Windows. And some programs like Quicken for the Mac kinda stink in comparison to the Windows versions.

People will tell you to just run Parallels or Virtual Box so you can run Windows apps on your Mac, if you need Quicken or some other Windows-only app, but that isn't a great solution because you haven't really made things less complicated by switching to the Mac, only MORE complicated.

So make sure you don't need any applications that require Windows, IMHO.

Tim Morton
07-24-2014, 9:46 AM
When you say Mac pro...are you talking macbook Pro? Or are you thinking of jumping into the full on mac pro desktop? What are your needs?

Curt Harms
07-24-2014, 9:56 AM
yes you can buy a mac of +$2000 or you can load linux mint, for free, and enjoy the virus resistant quality of linux. linux mint, IMHO, is one of the best. It has an "MS office equivalent" suite as well called libre office.

Given that your uses are pretty mainstream and don't require 100% compatibility with MSO files or Adobe stuff, linux mint is a no cost option that runs very well on XP class machines. As Chuck said, it comes with Libre Office and the ability to play flash content 'out of the box'. I suspect it'd print with HP printers as well. All of this from a DVD or USB drive without touching your existing setup. Speed using a 'live USB' is surprisingly close to running Windows from a hard drive. And crapware resistance is similar to Apple. You can create a live USB or DVD using Windows. A live DVD can be created with most DVD burning programs.

Here is one tutorial for USB:

http://www.pendrivelinux.com/universal-usb-installer-easy-as-1-2-3/

I use Unetbootin because it runs on Windows, Linux and Mac OSX and I've used it since I started messing with this stuff.

http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/

Curt Harms
07-24-2014, 10:02 AM
The Mac from which I am typing this response is a Pismo manufactured in 2000. Quite heavy but serves our home well. Our newest Mac is six or seven years old and the main one is now a decade old (we have five). Every once in a while we do an update but it's usually from a third-party software developer that needs to have their software updated. If you do a long-term analysis of the life-expectency and lack of problems, Macs cost far less the PC counterparts. Right now Mac is offering $200 off the prices of machines and $100 coupon if you purchase the computer for college or education. If you like having a CD/DVD slot, just make sure the model you select has one. Good luck with you decision no matter which way you go.

As far as Linux goes, we tried that and it wasn't nearly as easy as it seems. Look up Redhat if you decide to go that way.

Redhat is not an ease-of-use champ though Fedora 20 live USB work pretty well if you're familiar with Gnome 3 desktops. Linux Mint and IME a lesser known distro, solydX or solydK provide a simpler smoother 'out-of-box' experience IMO. Red Hat dominates the commercial sector but those installs are professionally done and administered.

Scott Shepherd
07-24-2014, 10:08 AM
Lewis, I feel your pain. I started on computers when the were attached to mainframes :) Came up with Vic-20, MS-DOS, Windows, and have been around computers my entire life (my Dad ran a computer room for the military when I was a kid). I finally cracked several years ago and bought a used Mac. I loved it. So much so I started swapping out everything I could at work and home. I couldn't be any happier. All I heard prior to the switch was "mac's get viruses too, you'll see", well, some 3 years later and still nothing to worry about. So that's 3 years of not having to worry or fight about it. I come to work and get things like "My computer is acting funny" and that shoots the day right there. I never have those moments on my computers. Are they perfect? No. Are there some growing pains? Sure. Would I ever go back to Windows at this point in time? Never. And it's nothing "major" that sways me. It's little bitty things like when someone sends you an email that says "Can we meet at 3:00 tomorrow", you just hover over it, it pops up and gives you the option to add that to your calendar. It knows, contextually, what things are, so it shows things like that. If you get an email confirmation something has shipped with a tracking number in it, you hover over it, it asks if you want to track the package and it'll do it. It's just a lot of small details like that that make the user experience less "painful" to use for hours and hours a day. Simple things like built in screen shot capability, build in screen recording, and stuff like that.

I'm sure Windows 8 has some of that in there now, but I've been using them for years now, not waiting for them to come out in some next release.

Windows 8 might be great, I've never used it, other than in Beta, but I'm quite happy with the decision to change over.

Stan Calow
07-24-2014, 6:35 PM
Switched to Mac when Windows 8 came out. No regrets. Somehow, I need to know less, to get things done on a Mac.

Lewis Ehrhardt
07-24-2014, 9:26 PM
Thanks fellas for all the input. Some I understand, some's really over my head. Like I wrote, just not that good with computers. But, it seems, Mac's the way to go for me, at this stage in my life. Just last week, I wasted four to six precious hours of my woodworking life trying to get a stupid, annoying, senseless trovi virus off my wife's hp laptop. and it's still very slow. And that was with an expensive bought and paid for "anti" virus". Which for all I know could be more there to these these than most of us know??? I'm hoping to get one during the tax free weekend. Anyways, I hear some sycamore calling! Lewis

David Weaver
07-24-2014, 9:46 PM
I've not had any virus issues in 7 years on an HP laptop. I don't use "paid" antivirus, either. Used to be AVG and now avast or whatever the other free one is on another PC. I guess you could get a mac, but it seems like a heck of a penalty money-wise, when it sounds like a little bit more savvy on a windows machine is all that's needed.

When I bought my last HP laptop, an equivalent Mac was more than three times as expensive.....what a penalty.

Rich Riddle
07-24-2014, 9:52 PM
I simply prefer the ease of use with programs. Macs prove far more intuitive for my little feeble mind. It's no fun trying to become a computer programmer to figure out what needs accomplished. I'll pay the fee in order to save sanity and time. Right now a basic Mac is about $1100. What's the cost of a basic type of PC?

Lewis Ehrhardt
07-24-2014, 9:55 PM
David, I'm certainly up for suggestions on how to be "savvy" and avoiding penalties. I'm not sure what I could do. I don't visit suspicious sites, I don't view shady stuff. But, this seems to be a continual problem. Add to that, this thing has slowed to almost a crawl. I have a friend who purchased a Mac a few years ago. I mention him b/c he has about the same if not less computer knowledge I have, (which isn't saying anything) and he's had virtually no problems with his Mac and speedwise, it's about the same. Any help would be appreciated.

Scott Shepherd
07-24-2014, 9:57 PM
I've not had any virus issues in 7 years on an HP laptop. I don't use "paid" antivirus, either. Used to be AVG and now avast or whatever the other free one is on another PC. I guess you could get a mac, but it seems like a heck of a penalty money-wise, when it sounds like a little bit more savvy on a windows machine is all that's needed.

When I bought my last HP laptop, an equivalent Mac was more than three times as expensive.....what a penalty.

You shouldn't have to learn to be a geek or tell the difference in a spoofed email from your bank in order to be able to safely use your computer. Some people would rather spend their time doing other things than learning geek stuff just to keep them "safe". My parents are in their 70's. I don't think there's much hope in my Mom learning what's safe to click or open, nor should she have to.

That's exactly the point people with Mac's are making. We don't have to do that. You see it as a "penalty", I see it as not having to pay for inferior products that expose me and my family to dangerous things. If I had to pay 10 times more to never have to deal with anything like that again, I'd gladly pay it and not ever see it as a punishment.

William Adams
07-24-2014, 10:38 PM
A Mac Mini starts at $599 new. Add keyboard, monitor and mouse and you've got a system. If you don't like Mac OS X, you can install Linux or Windows.

John Huds0n
07-24-2014, 11:59 PM
...All I do is simple word processing, some blog reads and web browsings. Thanks for any help. lewis

If that is all you do, you should consider a ChromeBox. They make a couple of versions, but ASUS makes an upgraded one that sells for $375 and comes with a keyboard and mouse. All you need is a monitor that has a hdmi input or even a TV for that matter. It uses the Chrome Operating System which is based on linux.

It is only 5" x 5" x 1.65" in size. The only drawback is you would not be able to run any window programs, but for your word processing you could use google docs.

Here is a link to a review about the chromebook - which is the laptop version
http://www.cnet.com/news/living-with-chromebook-can-you-use-it-to-actually-get-work-done/

Here is the ASUS chromebox at Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/CHROMEBOX-M075U-Desktop-Bundle-Wireless-Keyboard/dp/B00JY4Q52U/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1406260361&sr=8-2&keywords=chromebox

Rich Engelhardt
07-25-2014, 7:46 AM
Macs are every bit as vulnerable to a virus as any other computer.
So is Linux.

Maybe even more so than Windows because so many people buy into the myth that they aren't and run naked systems with no virus protection.

Scott Shepherd
07-25-2014, 8:24 AM
Maybe even more so than Windows because so many people buy into the myth that they aren't and run naked systems with no virus protection.

You left off the part about they run without virus protection and have no issues for years and years.....

The reality is that there's not much out there that's a risk for the latest version of OSX that the typical user is doing. If I get a spoofed email from my bank and click on it, nothing bad is going to happen. That's the stuff that's causing so much havoc on PC users. Just simple tasks that you shouldn't have to worry about, not the complex "someone could get remote access through a hole in remote access" which so few people use.

Curt Harms
07-25-2014, 10:47 AM
A Mac Mini starts at $599 new. Add keyboard, monitor and mouse and you've got a system. If you don't like Mac OS X, you can install Linux or Windows. If that isn't a stripped or crippled machine, that's not a bad deal. I'm not a fan of Apple's Walled Garden approach but it has its benefits. Re antivirus, catching 45% of threats isn't a great batting average.
“The entire industry has moved beyond anti-virus a long time ago,” said Bret Hartman, chief technology officer of the security business group at Cisco CSCO . “It’s not a surprise.” But anti-virus protection remains important as a first line of defense against threats. According to Dye’s estimates, traditional cybersecurity methods catch more than 45 percent of threats. The problem, he says, is that anti-virus alone is insufficient. “The point that we were making in the interview with the Wall Street Journal and that we make with our customers on a regular basis is that anti-virus alone is not enough,” Dye clarified in an interview with Fortune. “The era of antivirus-only is over.” “If that’s all you’re using to protect yourself, you’re vulnerable,” said Fran Rosch, senior vice president of Symantec’s Norton consumer business. http://fortune.com/2014/05/15/no-anti-virus-software-isnt-dead-yet/

David Weaver
07-25-2014, 10:49 AM
You shouldn't have to learn to be a geek or tell the difference in a spoofed email from your bank in order to be able to safely use your computer. Some people would rather spend their time doing other things than learning geek stuff just to keep them "safe". My parents are in their 70's. I don't think there's much hope in my Mom learning what's safe to click or open, nor should she have to.

That's exactly the point people with Mac's are making. We don't have to do that. You see it as a "penalty", I see it as not having to pay for inferior products that expose me and my family to dangerous things. If I had to pay 10 times more to never have to deal with anything like that again, I'd gladly pay it and not ever see it as a punishment.

I don't get spoofed emails from my bank. Why would that be any different with a mac or PC? I see a mac as the same type of penalty payment that someone pays if they buy one of those credit protection services instead of paying a fraction to write the credit bureaus and have their credit frozen or unfrozen when they need it to be unfrozen.

Rich Engelhardt
07-25-2014, 11:26 AM
I don't get spoofed emails from my bank. Why would that be any different with a mac or PC?
He's using an incorrect terminology - spoofing.
Spoofing is the act of sitting outside someone's network and gaining access to the secured network via the perimeter devices (usually a firewall) by putting an IP address in the packets you transmit that match the secured network.

I believe what he's referring to is Phishing. That's where someone sends you a message and when you view the message, it redirects you to a bogus website.
With a PC, that bogus website can often push down an unwanted installation of malware. It can also do it if you're running a Mac or Linux box & the malware rides in via Java or Flash or some other middleware.
Another trait of Phishing is to redirect you to a bogus site that looks for all the world like the real thing.
But - if you look close at your browser bar, instead of being at http://www.bigbank.com it says http://www.bigbank.net Notice one is dot com and the other dot net.
Once at the bogus site, you are asked to enter confidential information - SS number, driver's license number. bank accounts, passwords, etc.
In this case, then no - it doesn't matter if you have a PC or a MAC or anything else.


Re antivirus, catching 45% of threats isn't a great batting average.Take all that w/a large grain of salt. Both Cisco and Symantec are pushing their perimeter devices.


The reality is that there's not much out there that's a risk for the latest version of OSX that the typical user is doing.That's not true at all. The entire computer industry has been warning Mac and Linux users for years that the threats to them are increasing daily.
In the last couple years, as the Apple I devices have become the dominant players, the threats to them and the Mac OS is increasing even more.

There's plenty of valid reasons to prefer a Mac. Why this myth of "no virus" won't die is beyond me.
Do yourself a favor and start running an anti virus program on your Mac.
Sophos has one that's a freebie.

David Weaver
07-25-2014, 11:48 AM
A good rule of thumb for all sites, banks, ebay, paypal, or whatever, is if you think that you got a message from them about something - go to the site and log in there. If it's something important, it'll be there.

Jim Becker
07-25-2014, 9:49 PM
I switched to a 27" iMac about four years ago for my personal machine. Two years later I bought a 13" MacbookPro Retina for my BYOD work machine. I still have Windows 7 available for those few applications that require it (run in a virtual machine using Parallels), but I'd be very unlikely to go back to Windows "full time" at this point. My Macs just work...and work well. There is a slight learning curve in the beginning, but it's not significant.

Some folks have mentioned Linux. It's a great operating system and certainly offers a lot to folks who wish to use it. The downside is that it's pretty much limited to "generic" applications. Of course, virtualization can be used there to accommodate other OS, too. Most users who are not reasonably "computer savvy" are probably best to stick with Windows or MacOS. IMHO...and I'm sure that there are folks who do not share that point of view.

Frank Drew
07-26-2014, 12:43 AM
These threads are common on the internet: Should I switch to Mac/What are the disadvantages to switching to Macs?, and so on.

FWIW, I rarely, if ever, read posts from people who switched away from Macs and are happy about it, or switched to Macs and regret the move.

We use Windows at work and I've got an iMac at home, my fourth. One quibble I have with Apple is that once they move beyond a piece of hardware or software, they stop supporting it and you have to suck it up and move on; no backwards compatibility for Apple!

Phil Thien
07-26-2014, 9:48 AM
FWIW, I rarely, if ever, read posts from people who switched away from Macs and are happy about it, or switched to Macs and regret the move.


I have purchased many used Macs from people that found the experience didn't live up to the hype, and switched back to Window PC's.

I have kept a couple but most of them get rehomed to households friendly to Macs.

Phil Thien
07-26-2014, 10:00 AM
Macs are every bit as vulnerable to a virus as any other computer.
So is Linux.

Maybe even more so than Windows because so many people buy into the myth that they aren't and run naked systems with no virus protection.

Well we're going to have to respectfully disagree with that, because the big difference between a default Mac and a default Windows install is the privileges with which a user runs.

Even with Win7 and beyond, a home user typically has administrator privileges. Windows may ask to elevate privileges ("do you want the following computer to make changes to the computer?") but all the user has to do is click on "sure" or whatever. The next thing you know, that app (which may be malware) is installing itself as a rootkit (bad).

On OS X and pretty much anything *ix, you need to supply the root password.

I setup my Windows PC's so they work more like a Mac. So my kids or a guest can't just browse the web and click on "you bet" if something tries to sneak into my PC. A user in this case will be prompted for a password (which they do not have) and so any malware can only infect the user account they're using (and often won't bother, it was designed as a root kit and if it can't deliver the payload just aborts).

So that helps a ton.

But we are still left with the fact that there are a bazillion variants of Windows viruses and few for the Mac.

So advantage is definitely Mac and Linux.

Brian Elfert
07-26-2014, 10:21 AM
I simply prefer the ease of use with programs. Macs prove far more intuitive for my little feeble mind. It's no fun trying to become a computer programmer to figure out what needs accomplished. I'll pay the fee in order to save sanity and time. Right now a basic Mac is about $1100. What's the cost of a basic type of PC?

You can get a decent home use PC for $400 to $500. Sometimes you can even get a monitor bundled in for that price.

I administer Windows servers and Linux/Unix servers for a living. Personally, I wouldn't even consider Linux for my home use. Good as a server, not so good as a desktop. I like some of what OSX has to offer, but I don't like the prices and inflexibility of the hardware. I also have three programs that only run on Windows. Not only would I need to spend twice as much on a Mac I would also need to buy Parallels and a copy of Windows 7.

Rich Engelhardt
07-26-2014, 10:55 AM
Well we're going to have to respectfully disagree with that, because the big difference between a default Mac and a default Windows install is the privileges with which a user runs.Phil,
I understand that & I'm still going to stick by what I said.
*ix is every bit as susceptible to an attack that can elevate privileges.

SQL injection is one such attack. (and I'm not about to go off and spend the rest of my day looking up all the other exploits just to prove a point. Why? Because I just simply don't care which OS is more secure. I stand by my statement that any OS can be as vulnerable as any other - - all it takes is for someone to crack it)
Nearly everyone hears SQL and immediately dismisses it because of Microsoft SQL.

In reality, SQL is just short for Structured Query Language and there's a number of different flavors of it going around.
I believe this forum uses MySQL on a Linux server.
I could be wrong though - but -it really doesn't matter since there's a bunch of Linux based servers that got hacked via SQL injection.

Greg Peterson
07-26-2014, 11:59 AM
State sponsored and criminal enterprises want as great of a ROI as possible. The most common OS will garner the lions share of the attention. It's all about scale and order of magnitude. OS X is less prone to exploits simply because of the relatively small number of installs.

I would guess the most profitable types of exploits are the ones that capture login credentials for web sites where credit card and banking information is stored or used. These exploits are independent of ones hardware/software platform. I can just as easily surrender my credit card or banking information on a Mac, Android or Windows device.

If you're online, rules generally do not apply, or at least are meant to be broken.

Phil Thien
07-26-2014, 1:05 PM
State sponsored and criminal enterprises want as great of a ROI as possible. The most common OS will garner the lions share of the attention. It's all about scale and order of magnitude. OS X is less prone to exploits simply because of the relatively small number of installs.


It is more complicated than that.

First, much of this code is released from parts of the world where until recently, the Mac had not penetrated into the masses due to cost. That has changed, more hackers probably have Macs now than at any point in the past.

Second, you have to multiply the lower # of Macs by a somewhat higher risk factor because nobody has any antivirus on their Mac, and there is little experience cleaning viruses from Macs.

There will ne a D-Day for viruses on the Mac, and it will be ugly. I know people have been predicting this for a long time, it will come though.

Jim Koepke
07-26-2014, 1:44 PM
When I bought my last HP laptop, an equivalent Mac was more than three times as expensive.....what a penalty.

When you bought your last HP laptop, an equivalent Mac had likely already been in use for a few years.

Here is just one simple function of the Mac OS:

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This image was captured on the fly while typing this post.

My PC guru friend doesn't think of it as that big of a deal and besides, he can likely find third party software to do the same thing.

There are a lot of "simple functions of the Mac OS" that there is likely third party software someplace to make a PC able to perform.

I used to work in a PC only environments. Often times for some of the heavy lifting I would do it at home on my Mac and then take it to work on a disk or later on a USB memory stick.

You can spend time working on you PC or you can spend time getting work done on a Mac.

jtk

John Huds0n
07-26-2014, 2:48 PM
Ya, in Windows - they call that the "snipping tool" which comes with the OS since Win7....

John McClanahan
07-26-2014, 3:22 PM
Easy screen capture and screen zoom are 2 of the many things I love about my Mac. (The 27" display is another)

John

Keith Outten
07-26-2014, 3:53 PM
Count me as an Apple fan. I have an iMac, Mac Pro, iPad and an iPhone. I recently installed two of the Airport Time Capsule Routers in my network, they are pretty slick with 2 and 3 terabyte hard drives.

I still have three Windows XP machines. One runs my CNC Router and my Laser Engraver in the shop. The other two are used for design work using software for the shop machines. I NEVER connect my Windows machines to the Internet or use them for email.

glenn bradley
07-26-2014, 5:44 PM
BUT, if what I understand is right???, I can switch to a Mac and not have all the virus threats, updates and such?

One of our worst attacks on campus was through a MAC. Any popular operating system will be tickled by the ne're-do-wells; even network and telephone switching hardware get hacked. I am pretty OS agnostic; I use MAC, Linux, HP-UX and Windows at work, Windows and Linux at home. Choose your poison ;-)

William Adams
07-26-2014, 9:49 PM
A successful attack requires one of the following:

- persuading a user to enter their password
- an unpatched exploit which grants access/control w/o that.

The number of the latter is far greater on Windows than Mac OS X, and the window is far smaller since Apple is far more likely to issue a patch w/o waiting for a "patch Tuesday" to roll around.

David Weaver
07-26-2014, 10:15 PM
You can spend time working on you PC or you can spend time getting work done on a Mac.

jtk

I don't know, Jim. I don't spend any part of the year working on my PC. I do spend about half an hour a year because my wife does something goofy on her PC and I have to fix it. As it stands right now, she has the search conduit spyware, and I'll probably spend 5 minutes getting rid of it.

I can screen capture or window capture on PC, (or use the snip tool) but it's not something I generally find useful unless I'm sending a request for sofware service on proprietary software at work. It's sort of like advertising the virtues of a car by selling the retracting antenna.

People mistake the idea that something is easier to do on one platform or the other in general just because it's easier for them.

Jim Koepke
07-26-2014, 10:28 PM
One quibble I have with Apple is that once they move beyond a piece of hardware or software, they stop supporting it and you have to suck it up and move on; no backwards compatibility for Apple!

I know about that. I have a lot of Appleworks files. The OS on my machine is getting a little outdated. It is the last one to support Appleworks. I understand there is a translator available.

Heck, I still have some old Clarisworks files.

Not sure if I could maintain the old OS on an external drive and upgrade the OS to the latest my old machine will support. It would likely give me another 5 or 6 years of use at least.

jtk

Jim Koepke
07-26-2014, 10:37 PM
Ya, in Windows - they call that the "snipping tool" which comes with the OS since Win7....

Thanks John, glad to hear they finally got around to it.


I can screen capture or window capture on PC, (or use the snip tool) but it's not something I generally find useful unless I'm sending a request for sofware service on proprietary software at work.

I use it all the time when I want to include an image in an email or file. It can be a cut and paste operation or it will create a file depending on the key strokes used. The file type can be set by the user.

Another feature is the image zoom function. Very handy for viewing images or small text.

To each there own. One of my friends occasionally extolls the virtues of the eight dot three naming protocol for naming files. He misses DOS.

jtk

Rich Engelhardt
07-27-2014, 9:02 AM
The number of the latter is far greater on Windows than Mac OS X, and the window is far smaller since Apple is far more likely to issue a patch w/o waiting for a "patch Tuesday" to roll aroundThat's another one of those myths that may have been true once upon a time, but, it won't die no matter how many times the truth is told.

Microsoft responds to a critical threat just as fast as anyone else responds to one.

IIRC, Microsoft calls it an "out of band update".

As far as numbers go, feel free to peruse the archives at Us-Cert and Cert and note how many Mac threats vs Microsoft threats there have been over the years.
Yes - Microsoft has had more, but, as the Apple presence has grown over the last few years, so have the number of and severity of the threats.

Apple has always done a more than stellar job of having all their devices "talk" to each other. (LOL! They sometimes had huge problems talking to anything else though(AppleTalk)!).
It just a matter of time before some exploit rides in on an I-phone and takes out every Mac and I-whatever in the building - or beyond.

A very smart ex co-worker of mine once told me, "You can have security or you can have communication. As one goes up, the other goes down".

Phil Thien
07-27-2014, 9:25 AM
I know about that. I have a lot of Appleworks files. The OS on my machine is getting a little outdated. It is the last one to support Appleworks. I understand there is a translator available.

Heck, I still have some old Clarisworks files.

Not sure if I could maintain the old OS on an external drive and upgrade the OS to the latest my old machine will support. It would likely give me another 5 or 6 years of use at least.

jtk

In a way, the backwards compatibility of Windows has been the Achilles Heel. You end up with new versions of operating systems with things called "thunk layers" and such, just to remain backwards compatible with old apps. Eventually you do have to tell people their 1980's 16-bit app can't run, and they've finally done so with 64-bit versions of Win7 and 8. But it should have probably come sooner.

Phil Thien
07-27-2014, 9:26 AM
That's another one of those myths that may have been true once upon a time, but, it won't die no matter how many times the truth is told.

Microsoft responds to a critical threat just as fast as anyone else responds to one.

IIRC, Microsoft calls it an "out of band update".

As far as numbers go, feel free to peruse the archives at Us-Cert and Cert and note how many Mac threats vs Microsoft threats there have been over the years.
Yes - Microsoft has had more, but, as the Apple presence has grown over the last few years, so have the number of and severity of the threats.

Apple has always done a more than stellar job of having all their devices "talk" to each other. (LOL! They sometimes had huge problems talking to anything else though(AppleTalk)!).
It just a matter of time before some exploit rides in on an I-phone and takes out every Mac and I-whatever in the building - or beyond.

A very smart ex co-worker of mine once told me, "You can have security or you can have communication. As one goes up, the other goes down".

This is very well put, I agree 100%.

Rich Engelhardt
07-27-2014, 11:37 AM
Phil - thanks.

It's funny because I always seem to find myself looking like I'm a fan of Win/Tel, when in reality - I don't care for either.

I've always felt that the Motorola architecture (what Mac was based on) for a processor was/is superior to Intel and that Unix was/is the best operating system there ever was.

As I mentioned earlier - there's all sorts of valid reasons to go Mac.
However - the OP said he wanted freedom from both virus threats and updates and is willing to spend "Apple bucks" to get that.
IMHO, considering that he's probably going to have to shell out for all new software to go with a Mac - he's going to spend a ton of money for exactly - nothing.

Dave Sheldrake
07-27-2014, 12:50 PM
+1 for Phil,

Viruses (or more likely trojans) aren't as common on Macs as the people that devise such things want their *creations* to be wide spread, it would be similar to genetically building a real virus that only infects white tigers....what's the point, once you have got to the 20 or so tigers there is nowhere left to go and no reputation to be gained from it.

Don't be under the impression that the creators of computer malware are maligned kids with too much time on their hands, most of them are far better programmers than any of us will ever be and in general come from the late 20's to early 40's age bracket. Many are also in jobs of significant responsibility (one of the more ,well known, malware authors is a research scientist at Harvard).

"They are only kids who know nothing, I'll be back tomorrow to deal with this" was the response from one well know AV celebrity

He was back the next day... sadly most of his data wasn't.

cheers

Dave

William Adams
07-27-2014, 5:35 PM
Microsoft has kept IT pros hoping recently. While the monthly Patch Tuesday update load has been surprisingly light for the last four months, we’ve started getting some emergency security advisories and updates that have been released outside the normal cycle schedule.
http://www.gfi.com/blog/microsoft-releases-another-out-of-band-update/

Vs.

Critical Security Update for OS X Mavericks - v10.9.2 and Security Update 2014-001

Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:15:47 +0000

Apple has release a Critical Security for OS X Mavericks, Mountain Lion and Safari, addressing an SSL vulnerability and other security vulnerabilities.

For more information see http://support.apple.com/kb/HT6150

Rich Engelhardt
07-28-2014, 8:03 AM
Vs.

Critical Security Update for OS X Mavericks - v10.9.2 and Security Update 2014-001

Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:15:47 +0000

Apple has release a Critical Security for OS X Mavericks, Mountain Lion and Safari, addressing an SSL vulnerability and other security vulnerabilities.

For more information see http://support.apple.com/kb/HT6150 (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT6150)


Again - the truth is something else entirely.


http://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/current-activity/2014/05/16/Apple-Releases-Security-Updates-OS-X-and-iTunes

http://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/current-activity/2014/04/23/Apple-Releases-Security-Updates-Mac-OS-X-and-iOS

http://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/current-activity/2014/05/22/Apple-Releases-Security-Updates-Safari

http://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/current-activity/2014/04/02/Apple-Releases-Security-Updates-Safari

https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/bulletins/SB14-188



That's at least what, 5 updates you missed?

Scott Shepherd
07-28-2014, 8:49 AM
I think some are getting probability and possibility mixed up.

Are there things that can impact a Mac? Sure. Is the average user going to interact with them? Probably not. That's my entire point. The geeks in the room keep stating studies and reports that show active things out there, but yet the reality is people use them every day without issues, day after day. I don't think I've ever met a PC user that hasn't had malware or a virus. On the flip side, I've never talked to a Mac owner that's had one. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it just means in my world, I've not found that person, where every one else I know with PC's (self included) have had issues.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it probably at THIS point in time? No.

David, you asked what the issue with the spoofed emails (yes, it is spoofing, not phishing, well, actually phishing is done from a spoofed email address), the issue is that if you click the link from your "bank" that's telling you that you need to update your account information because it's been breached, when you click on the link provided, it can download malware or a virus onto your computer. Telling a 70 year old person that they "Need to check the url in the email" is meaningless. If you click that same email from a Mac, 99.99% of the time, nothing is going to happen.

You need to put yourself into the world of people that are average users, not super users and almost this entire thread is full of posts from super users. Do I suspect super users to have issues with any operating system? Sure do. However, you aren't the target market for easier to use computers.

David Weaver
07-28-2014, 9:01 AM
I am by no means a super user. I'm just a user who has used computers for a while. I'm not a programmer or engineer, I just apply some sense when I buy and use computers. Part of that sense is not buying into apple's extremely bloated prices and follow-up scheme that has you paying for every single thing you do. It's never taken much time for me to apply that sense or avoid trouble, and my wife who - if there is such a thing as a power user, she is a "powerless" user, has manage to avoid it also.

If the elderly are going to take up computing from out of nowhere, mac is probably a good option.

There are other things where I suspend thought and turn over my money (sharpening stones, fine carbon steel without much alloying, hand made tools by people who are true tradesmen of such things....), but computers and phones are definitely not one of those things. Add cable TV to that. I have not personally met anyone who has had a PC and had money taken from their bank account. My parents and grandparents, I guess, are between the generations you speak of - my parents are competent trouble-free PC and android users (also hard to separate from money at times) in their mid 60s, and my grandparents wouldn't have touched a computer if you paid them. I have one BIL who uses mac and literally everyone else I'm related to uses PCs. The sum total of expense that I've ever seen is that my dad took his laptop to staples or something 5 years ago and paid them $60 to "clean and tune up his PC" or something. I have no idea what that means, but he's saved thousands of dollars over the last 15 years by going the route he's gone, and I guess I don't really need to save money but he *definitely* doesn't. I just don't turn it over where there's no need, and neither does he.

Scott Shepherd
07-28-2014, 9:39 AM
I am by no means a super user. I'm just a user who has used computers for a while. I'm not a programmer or engineer, I just apply some sense when I buy and use computers. Part of that sense is not buying into apple's extremely bloated prices and follow-up scheme that has you paying for every single thing you do. It's never taken much time for me to apply that sense or avoid trouble, and my wife who - if there is such a thing as a power user, she is a "powerless" user, has manage to avoid it also.

If the elderly are going to take up computing from out of nowhere, mac is probably a good option.

There are other things where I suspend thought and turn over my money (sharpening stones, fine carbon steel without much alloying, hand made tools by people who are true tradesmen of such things....), but computers and phones are definitely not one of those things. Add cable TV to that. I have not personally met anyone who has had a PC and had money taken from their bank account. My parents and grandparents, I guess, are between the generations you speak of - my parents are competent trouble-free PC and android users (also hard to separate from money at times) in their mid 60s, and my grandparents wouldn't have touched a computer if you paid them. I have one BIL who uses mac and literally everyone else I'm related to uses PCs. The sum total of expense that I've ever seen is that my dad took his laptop to staples or something 5 years ago and paid them $60 to "clean and tune up his PC" or something. I have no idea what that means, but he's saved thousands of dollars over the last 15 years by going the route he's gone, and I guess I don't really need to save money but he *definitely* doesn't. I just don't turn it over where there's no need, and neither does he.

Just because it hasn't happened to you or anyone you know, doesn't mean it's not happening. As a person who was the first call made to by friends and family, non of which were computer savvy, I'd like to have all the hours back I spent trying to fix their computers from viruses and malware that all they did was "click on a link in an email from a friend".

Removing malware is a lot easier today than it was before, but I know one particular issue wasted about 8 hours of my life on. It was a nasty one that hit XP.

If it was as easy to keep out of trouble as you suggest, there would be no McAfee, Norton, AVG, etc. You should consider yourself quite lucky.

David Weaver
07-28-2014, 10:44 AM
I guess it's all a matter of perspective. What was causing my dad to spend $60 was likely some kind of spyware or toolbars, I didn't ask him. Years ago, when you got a virus, you could literally track down the executable and just eliminate it. Back then (windows 95 era), both macs and PCs were pretty much junk. Our lab at school had some slow PCs and an equal number of macs. The PCs ran NT 3.51 (why I remember, I don't know). You had to line up and wait to get a very slow PC and nobody would get near the macs (they had some OS issue or something at the time) - it may have been that folks were using spreadsheets. If you could tolerate unix, the math lab sparcs were always free, but they were generally beyond my paygrade without specific instruction.

Anyway, I don't know when viruses got better, but I know they used to show up if you were doing things you shouldn't back in the old days, or trying to go to a site to get something for nothing. Email phishing is probably a lot more prevalent now, but I use only AVG free and run malware bytes every once in a while, and have instructed my wife to go to the bank and credit card site manually if she ever wants to go in. That's pretty much been it.

If your friends and family are calling you for tech support, then I'd tell them to get a mac, too, though - but in my case, I'd tell them that because I could literally say "i'm not familar with what you're talking about because I don't use macs on a regular basis".

And a random summary comment - about 5 years ago, I did what I usually do, I bought the fastest PC laptop that I could find in the 600-700 range (I use PCs a lot of hours, I guess, I don't know what qualifies as hard use these days if you're not running a file server off of your PC), and my BIL who is a mac *fanatic* bought some kind of desktop all in one thing (I don't know what they are called now) mac brand, and paid $2200. I endured a whole bunch of browbeating about how PC users were generally unsophisticated that seeing someone using a PC laptop instead of mac usually clued him in that the user wasn't very smart or they were poor. A little over two years later, his mac went kaput. That's unusual for a mac from what I hear. He bought one to follow it up, except it cost $3k instead of 2200. I don't know if that one's still going or not, and maybe since the first one lasted less than three years he got something toward a new one from mac? Who knows. After 7 years, my PC laptop (which was refurbished to start) went kaput last year and I had to replace it. It's the first PC that I've had that didn't make it to 10 years old (the age when I throw them out), and I have to admit that I was kind of disappointed, but had little interest in trying to fix it - for obvious reasons, and just removed the harddrive and threw the rest away. We put our old ones in the guest room so people can check their emails, and now our regular guests have to bring their own (most people just get on some sort of hand device now, anyway).

Rich Engelhardt
07-28-2014, 10:58 AM
I have nothing more to contribute - buy what you want for whatever reason you want.

I'm done with computers 100%. I put in my time in the industry (22+ years) supporting them & I'm pretty determined to not get back into it.

Phil Thien
07-28-2014, 11:43 AM
Macs die, we may as well install a revolving door for people that come here after being told at the Apple store that the miniscule amount of water that spilled onto the keyboard means the motherboard has to be replaced at a cost of $800+. MacBook keyboards are like liquid funnels, getting the water in just the wrong spot. We also see MacBook machines carried like a book that can get 1-2 drops of coffee or whatever in through the vent and it will ruin a machine. In fact, in that last 2-3 weeks I've auctioned/sold three MacBooks that were destroyed by miniscule amounts of water. I've never seen a Windows notebook that is as susceptible.

Oh, and Apple appreciates you bought the AppleCare extended warranty, but it doesn't cover water damage like most other brands of extended warranties, sorry.

Oh and iMacs that have bad hard drives, where the round trip to replace the drive takes a good tech 30+ minutes, when most PC's can be done in literally 1-2 minutes. Apple is all about the aesthetic, to heck with serviceability.

Oh and David mentioned his relative commenting that he thinks people using PC's are either dumb, poor, or a combination thereof. I'd have to say that least when it comes to critical thinking, my experience has been the opposite. Easily overwhelmed people seem to gravitate towards Apple. Not all, but that has been my experience (on average).

Finally, some keep insisting that malware on the Mac is nonexistent. I can only agree that it hasn't been as substantial as on the Windows side. But this article is a history of major malware strikes on the Mac:

http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2011/10/03/mac-malware-history/

Anyone believing the Mac is immune should READ THAT LINK.

David Weaver
07-28-2014, 11:53 AM
Oh and David mentioned his relative commenting that he thinks people using PC's are either dumb, poor, or a combination thereof. I'd have to say that least when it comes to critical thinking, my experience has been the opposite. Easily overwhelmed people seem to gravitate towards Apple. Not all, but that has been my experience (on average).

I think it has a lot to do with academia and how susceptible groups of people can be to trying to be trendy. You know, like many things, where it's considered unacceptable at all to spend money on some things (of the more traditional type), but mandatory to have others (glasses that look a certain way, t shirts a size too small (my bil isn't part of that movement, though), ...). Going out and making a decision based on your own parameters is not acceptable in such situations, and doing something like fixing your own faucets or changing your own oil is seen as brutish or garish. I guess my same philosophy on the PCs tends to anything that is easily maintained or repaired with just a little bit of desire to understand how things work. I like plain cars that are inexpensive and easy to work on, too - they tend to last a long time - same reason, I haven't seen anyone get anything back when they sell a 7 year old car that has heated leather seats and TVs in the headrests, etc. I've been down that road in the past, but the older I get, the more stingy I get, and the more I want to make all of my decisions rather than follow a trend.

Scott Shepherd
07-28-2014, 12:57 PM
Macs die, we may as well install a revolving door for people that come here after being told at the Apple store that the miniscule amount of water that spilled onto the keyboard means the motherboard has to be replaced at a cost of $800+. MacBook keyboards are like liquid funnels, getting the water in just the wrong spot. We also see MacBook machines carried like a book that can get 1-2 drops of coffee or whatever in through the vent and it will ruin a machine. In fact, in that last 2-3 weeks I've auctioned/sold three MacBooks that were destroyed by miniscule amounts of water. I've never seen a Windows notebook that is as susceptible.

Oh, and Apple appreciates you bought the AppleCare extended warranty, but it doesn't cover water damage like most other brands of extended warranties, sorry.

Oh and iMacs that have bad hard drives, where the round trip to replace the drive takes a good tech 30+ minutes, when most PC's can be done in literally 1-2 minutes. Apple is all about the aesthetic, to heck with serviceability.

Oh and David mentioned his relative commenting that he thinks people using PC's are either dumb, poor, or a combination thereof. I'd have to say that least when it comes to critical thinking, my experience has been the opposite. Easily overwhelmed people seem to gravitate towards Apple. Not all, but that has been my experience (on average).

Finally, some keep insisting that malware on the Mac is nonexistent. I can only agree that it hasn't been as substantial as on the Windows side. But this article is a history of major malware strikes on the Mac:

http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2011/10/03/mac-malware-history/

Anyone believing the Mac is immune should READ THAT LINK.

And all of that proves exactly what I said in a previous post. "Mac's don't like water spilled on them", "They are hard to replace internal components". None of that has a single thing to do with the user experience of operating it on a day to day basis.

Keep actioning off those water damaged macbook pro's. I buy them whenever I can. There's a company that fixes them for a fraction of the price of apple and you can end up with a $2,000 Macbook pro for about $500 once it's all bought and repaired.

David Masters
07-28-2014, 2:48 PM
I performed the ultimate boneheaded stunt — I dumped an entire cup of coffee on my MacBook Air. The laptop was powered on at the time, and although I immediately powered it off, you cannot remove the battery. I drained and sopped up the worst and flushed with distilled water. Waited two days for everything to dry out and powered it on. Still in use today. I've taken many Windows based laptops apart to repair and don't find them any better sealed (even Thinkpads). In full disclosure, I haven't performed the cup of coffee test on a Windows laptop yet.

As to iMacs, we have to remember that we are buying a single processor/monitor unit and aesthetics aside, are designed to tightly control heat and noise. Although I haven't worked with the Lenovo, HP, Acer, and Dell single processor/monitor clones that were introduced after the iMac, I suspect changing components in these are somewhat difficult as well. If you really want to test your skill in replacing a hard drive, try upgrading one of those Acer desktops like the Revo, and Veriton. (but I love these guys for single application use)

But when I choose a computer, I consider productivity first, and I have found Apple and OS X to be better over Windows (XP, 7, and 8.1) and Linux (Ubuntu). It's not that the others can't perform the tasks I need to accomplish, but Apple has a lot of little things that make me more productive.

Dave

William Adams
07-28-2014, 4:34 PM
That's at least what, 5 updates you missed?

It's what came up w/ a quick search. Kind of like this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acert.org+microsoft --- About 4,710 results
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acert.org+apple --- About 1,810 results

With Microsoft, one gets ``Patch Tuesday'' plus the odd out-of-band patch: http://blogs.vmware.com/go/2012/09/the-meaning-of-out-of-band-patches-and-their-microsoft-history.html

With Apple one gets ``Apple will release security updates from time to time'': https://ssl.apple.com/support/security/

and that essentially restates my original statement which you've been attempting to dispute. (That Microsoft has a patch schedule and occasionally has their hand forced to release one, while Apple releases patches on an as-needed basis, so has more flexibility.)

I'd be interested in seeing a reasonable analysis which documents how many vulnerabilities there are for each platform at a given time if you can provide a link.

I use both, and don't much like either these days, and really wish the Linux camp would catch up on the things which matter to me. Oh well, my mislike of where the computer industry has gone is one of the reasons I do hand tool woodworking.

Phil Thien
07-28-2014, 4:51 PM
And all of that proves exactly what I said in a previous post. "Mac's don't like water spilled on them", "They are hard to replace internal components". None of that has a single thing to do with the user experience of operating it on a day to day basis.

Keep actioning off those water damaged macbook pro's. I buy them whenever I can. There's a company that fixes them for a fraction of the price of apple and you can end up with a $2,000 Macbook pro for about $500 once it's all bought and repaired.

LOL, failures are part of the "user experience of operating it on a day to day basis." You cannot separate one from the other.

And I'm not saying Macs are especially failure-prone. They don't like liquid, but otherwise tend to be highly reliable.

David Weaver
07-28-2014, 4:59 PM
I performed the ultimate boneheaded stunt — I dumped an entire cup of coffee on my MacBook Air. The laptop was powered on at the time, and although I immediately powered it off, you cannot remove the battery. I drained and sopped up the worst and flushed with distilled water. Waited two days for everything to dry out and powered it on.

This has pretty much been my experience with everything computer and liquid related, and was going to ask the same thing - based on my experience at work of seeing other people inundating their computers and keyboards with water, only to have them work again a few days later, I'd wait a couple of days before I took any PC (and if I had a mac, same thing) to be repaired.

I don't know the different levels of mac books, but do you have to take it back to them to get the battery replaced if you mistreat it and let it discharge too many times?

Phil Thien
07-28-2014, 5:00 PM
I performed the ultimate boneheaded stunt — I dumped an entire cup of coffee on my MacBook Air. The laptop was powered on at the time, and although I immediately powered it off, you cannot remove the battery. I drained and sopped up the worst and flushed with distilled water. Waited two days for everything to dry out and powered it on. Still in use today. I've taken many Windows based laptops apart to repair and don't find them any better sealed (even Thinkpads). In full disclosure, I haven't performed the cup of coffee test on a Windows laptop yet.

As to iMacs, we have to remember that we are buying a single processor/monitor unit and aesthetics aside, are designed to tightly control heat and noise. Although I haven't worked with the Lenovo, HP, Acer, and Dell single processor/monitor clones that were introduced after the iMac, I suspect changing components in these are somewhat difficult as well. If you really want to test your skill in replacing a hard drive, try upgrading one of those Acer desktops like the Revo, and Veriton. (but I love these guys for single application use)

But when I choose a computer, I consider productivity first, and I have found Apple and OS X to be better over Windows (XP, 7, and 8.1) and Linux (Ubuntu). It's not that the others can't perform the tasks I need to accomplish, but Apple has a lot of little things that make me more productive.

Dave

Huh.

Two days after getting a motherboard wet, it is still wet. Thin spaces (between the PCB and components, for example) soak up the water via capillary action.

My advice to anyone that spills anything on a notebook is: (1) Invert it (make gravity work for you), but don't let fluid get to the panel. (2) Turn it off. (3) Unplug it. (4) Remove battery, if you can. (5) Seek the help of someone that can tear it down, clean it, and dry it (with compressed air).

Any moisture left behind will just result in corrosion (see pic). If it is bad enough, eventual failure.

David Masters
07-28-2014, 5:32 PM
Don't disagree, but with three years after the incident, I'm pretty impressed that it's still going. I suspect that the liquid was largely contained to the keyboard and little if any fluid leaked onto the motherboard.

Rich Engelhardt
07-28-2014, 5:40 PM
I'd be interested in seeing a reasonable analysis which documents how many vulnerabilities there are for each platform at a given time if you can provide a link.


www.cert.org (http://www.cert.org) - they handled all the advisories up until 2010.
After 2010, then www.us-cert.gov (http://www.us-cert.gov) took over.

Just go to both and go over all the bulletins from the archives. They list a totally unbiased history and assessment of all the vulnerabilities from 1980- something up through the present.


Cert and US-Cert are the authority on security and vulnerabilities.
They rate a threat as it comes to their attention - usually well before the actual vendor is aware of it's existence - and assign it a numerical value based on a number of things.

Feel free to peruse both sites and read the archives. It's a real eye opening experience and it pretty well will tell you that all the bogus myths of this being more secure than that are just that - bogus myths.
Every single electronic device that runs an operating system has vulnerabilities - from a Microcell to an HP disk array to you name it - - Cert -or US-Cert will list them.

Chris J Anderson
07-28-2014, 10:45 PM
I started using Mac about 2 years ago, on a few air books, now I'm using macbook retina pro.

Its the best thing I've done.

I run windows 8.1 as a virtual machine using VMware Fusion, and windows runs better / faster there than it does on a new toshiba laptop we have at home.

I run McAfee antivirus on the windows virtual machine, but I don't use any antivirus on my mac.

I do all my email / browsing on the mac, and use windows for coreldraw etc.

Once you go Mac, you'll never go back...

Cheers,
Chris

Brian Elfert
07-28-2014, 11:04 PM
Citrix is a company that specializes in delivering virtual Windows desktops and applications. Citrix has a Bring Your Own Device policy and various employees have told me that the Macbook Air is one of the most popular devices. It is more about the hardware than the OS because employees connect to virtual apps and virtual desktops via Citrix software much of the time.

Kev Williams
07-29-2014, 12:47 AM
What I find amusing about all this is, in the past 4 months I've bought 3 fairly new used computers from rebuilders... for $100 I get really fast multi-core processors, 4 gigs of ram, and plenty of HD space for my needs. I have a copy of XP, SP3 with every 'fix', and a cheap subscription to a driver update service. I load up the software, get "Avast" AV going, turn on the firewall, turn off the update notices, and without all the daily update nonsense, I have 3 of the fastest computers I've ever seen. Now of course, I've been warned by countless people that I MUST get these XP computers off the internet. Well, they're all on the internet, and I get no threats of any kind. No viruses, malware, nothing. I'm pretty sure it's because nobody cares. And why should they? How much fun can hacking into a few XP's be that Microsoft won't even bother hacking into anymore? Kinda like swatting already dead flies is my guess... ;)

And for the record, I use XP because I have to. I make my living using older machinery that anything newer than XP won't run. And until some virus or hacker gets in, I'll keep using it.

William Adams
07-29-2014, 6:10 AM
That's one of the things which I really mis-like about Mac OS X --- NeXT/OPENstep ran well on 33MHz 68040 processors (okay on the 25MHz board I had in my Cube, esp. once I managed to almost max out the memory) --- and simply flew on faster machines.

``Windows vanish'' was one quote from someone who installed the developer's preview.

Somehow, w/ all the overhead for transparency, Quartz, Carbon, &c., this O.S. which would fit comfortably on a 105MB H.D. and run well on a 32MB machine lost its elegance and incredible performance, to say nothing of features such as Display PostScript, nxhosting, PANTONE colour libraries at the system level, pop-up main menu, &c.

Phil Thien
07-29-2014, 9:34 AM
Citrix is a company that specializes in delivering virtual Windows desktops and applications. Citrix has a Bring Your Own Device policy and various employees have told me that the Macbook Air is one of the most popular devices. It is more about the hardware than the OS because employees connect to virtual apps and virtual desktops via Citrix software much of the time.

I support RDP servers in institutional (hospital, financial, etc.) environments and Apple users are a minority of our clients, and they always struggle.

My E-Mail instructions seems to be easily followed by Windows users. The Apple users almost always get stuck. Just telling them to get something from the app store seems to result in confusion!

I would also say that Apple users are way-overrepresented in the group that needs a password reset. Apple users simply forget their passwords way more often than Windows users. I find that interesting.

Brian Elfert
07-29-2014, 2:41 PM
I support RDP servers in institutional (hospital, financial, etc.) environments and Apple users are a minority of our clients, and they always struggle.


The folks that work for Citrix and choose to buy Apple are highly technical folks. The Citrix employees I have talked with all bought the Macbook Air because they like the hardware and could care less about the OS. The MBA is just a device to connect to virtual desktops running Windows where they do their real work.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose
07-30-2014, 11:57 AM
I know about that. I have a lot of Appleworks files. The OS on my machine is getting a little outdated. It is the last one to support Appleworks. I understand there is a translator available.

Heck, I still have some old Clarisworks files.

Not sure if I could maintain the old OS on an external drive and upgrade the OS to the latest my old machine will support. It would likely give me another 5 or 6 years of use at least.

jtk

FWIW, I've heard that LibreOffice (a fork of OpenOffice after a kerfuffle when Oracle started taking OpenOffice in a direction the community was less than enthusiastic about) can handle a lot of legacy Appleworks/ClarisWorks documents.

Jim Becker
08-10-2014, 9:35 PM
The folks that work for Citrix and choose to buy Apple are highly technical folks. The Citrix employees I have talked with all bought the Macbook Air because they like the hardware and could care less about the OS. The MBA is just a device to connect to virtual desktops running Windows where they do their real work.

Plausible for sure. Work environments are like that!

My employer started formally allowing BYOD about a year and a half ago. Nearly every participant I've met (including, well...me) has opted for an Apple machine. And we only use Windows for a few applications where their nature makes them Windows only. (some system design tools, primarily) I don't even use VPN anymore most of the time...80% of what I need to get to is available via single sign-on without VPN. Honestly, we should all be able to use whatever platform we enjoy and feel most comfortable with to do our work. (and play) I and others have been lobbying very, very hard for the above mentioned tools to migrate to web applications and be browser independent, for both internal users and our partners "out there" who also use those tools.

Jason Kowell
08-13-2014, 4:06 PM
The number one security vulnerability on any system is the user. You can have the most secure system, but if a user with admin rights decides to install some random program they found online, it doesn't make a difference. It's like buying the best alarm system in the world for your house, but opening the door for someone claiming to be a repairman without stopping to think "did I actually call a repairman?".

While OSX/Linux are a lot less prone to system-compromising attacks due to their design (despite what a lot of Windows apologists think it isn't just because Macs are less popular), the mentality of "Macs don't get viruses so I'm completely safe" is setting yourself up for problems. A trojan is not a virus, so immunity to the latter doesn't mean much when it comes to the former.

As for Windows, the majority of attacks aren't caused by hackers finding a new vulnerability, they're caused by hackers who wait for MS to release a patch and then use it to find the weakspots. If users would update their systems asap, there would be fewer less issues.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose
08-13-2014, 6:35 PM
The number one security vulnerability on any system is the user. You can have the most secure system, but if a user with admin rights decides to install some random program they found online, it doesn't make a difference. It's like buying the best alarm system in the world for your house, but opening the door for someone claiming to be a repairman without stopping to think "did I actually call a repairman?".

While OSX/Linux are a lot less prone to system-compromising attacks due to their design (despite what a lot of Windows apologists think it isn't just because Macs are less popular), the mentality of "Macs don't get viruses so I'm completely safe" is setting yourself up for problems. A trojan is not a virus, so immunity to the latter doesn't mean much when it comes to the former.

As for Windows, the majority of attacks aren't caused by hackers finding a new vulnerability, they're caused by hackers who wait for MS to release a patch and then use it to find the weakspots. If users would update their systems asap, there would be fewer less issues.

Exactly - I'm my experience, the user ends up being the key vector in most malware; a poorly patched system might make things worse, but when you basically let someone untrusted install a RAT or similar, all bets are off.

The last major Mac virus/trojan scare I remember ended up being specifically tied to folks trying to install an infected, bootleg "cracked" copies of "Photoshop" they found on BitTorrent. Yeah; who'd have thought that would end poorly.

Jeremy Treibs
09-17-2014, 5:43 PM
This thread is relevant to my interestes....

Big selling point of Apple is simplicity and ease of use. They used to throw "it just works" into that. And although I agree with that still to an extent... it isn't so much for the reasons people think.

Windows is designed to be "compatible" with millions of hardware combinations. Apple.. well, they can release 3 with VERY limited room for upgradability and test those systems to work out "all" of the bugs. (yes, I understand the inherant stability of Unix based software).

The most common issues with windows based computers are not viruses (the uninformed tend to blame everything on viruses) are driver incompatabilities (since they have to make an attempt to work in millions of hardware combinations) and power supply (inconsistent power supply) / memory faults (due to cheap memory).

Simply put, you get what you pay for. I hear all the time of people bragging they got a brand new system with fancy stats for 250 bucks. So either it was on a super sale or "they got what they paid for."

Having built/assembled my own systems since PC Dos on an XT+ machine (23 some odd years ago), I RARELY have any issues with my windows computers as I hand select every component before assembly. They just work.

There is a reason Apple charges 2000+ for even their basic system. It is the same reason my machines cost 1500+ when I build them.

You really do get what you pay for. There is a place for Apple, Windows, Android, iOS, Linux, etc. The key is to find what works best for you and research to determine the best you can get with the budget you have.

Scott Shepherd
09-17-2014, 5:56 PM
There is a reason Apple charges 2000+ for even their basic system. It is the same reason my machines cost 1500+ when I build them.



$1500 for their basic system? I don't think so. You can get a Mac Mini for $599 and a Macbook Air (laptop) for $899. I've been with PC's since they were invented. I'm done with them. It would take some serious mistakes by Apple to make me ever go back to another Microsoft product.

Phil Thien
09-17-2014, 6:06 PM
The most common issues with windows based computers are not viruses (the uninformed tend to blame everything on viruses) are driver incompatabilities (since they have to make an attempt to work in millions of hardware combinations) and power supply (inconsistent power supply) / memory faults (due to cheap memory).


Apple uses the same components (RAM, hard drives, DC-DC controllers in notebooks, etc.) that everyone else uses. Certainly nothing exotic or especially pricey.

Jeff Heil
09-18-2014, 11:27 PM
We went Mac at our house in January 2012 after we liked the experiences we had with our iPads and iPhones. Bought two Macbook Pros for my wife and I as we both seem to be on the computer at the same time at night working from home or doing household bill paying, web surfing and email. Have also added the Apple Airport Router and plugged in a 2 TB HD as a backup and as a hub to plug two shared printers on the network into as well as two Apple TV units to allow streaming into the home tv's. We have been very happy and won't go back to Windows. I have Parallels on my Mac to VPN into work and for a few applications that did not support Mac OSX, but in the last two years I have almost stopped using that too as most software platforms support Macs. It is more of an upfront investment, but low aggravation and just works. My next machine will be a macbook air with the SSD for fast boot ups and portability. I do 75% of my home computer work in my comfy chair with my macbook on my lap, even with a dedicated home office.

Keith Outten
09-19-2014, 7:05 AM
And I am looking forward to all the new features that will allow my iMac and MacPro to interface with my iPad and iPhone.

Jim Becker
09-21-2014, 8:28 PM
And I am looking forward to all the new features that will allow my iMac and MacPro to interface with my iPad and iPhone.

Yes, there are some very useful things coming next month when the new MacOS release hits in combination with iOS8.

William Adams
09-22-2014, 6:53 AM
I just wish they'd bring back some of the features which they left behind:

- Display PostScript
- nxhosting (ability to remotely run apps on other machines, interleaving the windows w/ apps on the current one)
- system-level PANTONE colour-licensing
- respositionable and tear-off menus, pop-up main menus (makes a lot of sense on large displays)
- Inspector options for folders when viewing in Miller-column browser mode allowing for persistent customization of sorting
- some sort of control for the Sidebar allowing one to determine how many items are showing (I miss the drawbar for hiding stuff when it was on the Shelf)
- all apps being written in the same (Objective-C, NeXT/OPENstep Frameworks) toolkit
- top-menu level Print, Hide, Quit and Services --- esp. the latter

Keith Outten
09-22-2014, 11:04 AM
I have to admit I find it really handy to be able to leave my phone in my office on the charger and be able to answer the phone on my iPad in the shop. Both of my daughters have already received the new iPhone 6 and the new camera can pretty much take the place of a standard camera in picture quality. I'm not sure that it will take the place of a digital SLR yet but it maybe down the road it could happen.

Waiting on Yosemite for the iMac now :)
.

Rich Riddle
09-23-2014, 11:09 AM
You know after reading all these posts, I purchased a new laptop. Works great and seemed the right time to give the Pismo built in 1999 a break. At this rate, I'll need another new one in 2029. Sure complained about the 1K the Pismo costs me back in the day, but didn't blink at the price of this new model with Retina display.

Jim Becker
09-23-2014, 2:04 PM
You know after reading all these posts, I purchased a new laptop. Works great and seemed the right time to give the Pismo built in 1999 a break. At this rate, I'll need another new one in 2029. Sure complained about the 1K the Pismo costs me back in the day, but didn't blink at the price of this new model with Retina display.

Yea...that was a good, long life for that old machine! I love the Retina display on my 13" MBPr, but I will readily admit that when I'm traveling and using only the small screen I need to use my reading glasses for sure!

Rich Riddle
09-23-2014, 3:46 PM
Yea...that was a good, long life for that old machine! I love the Retina display on my 13" MBPr, but I will readily admit that when I'm traveling and using only the small screen I need to use my reading glasses for sure!
WAS a good life? Heck, I still use it as my primary travel computer. No one will want to steal it because of its bulk and weight. I don't want to prematurely get rid of the old girl as lots of life left in her. I tend to like old tools and things; fortunately so does my wife...

Brian Elfert
09-23-2014, 10:34 PM
Apple uses the same components (RAM, hard drives, DC-DC controllers in notebooks, etc.) that everyone else uses. Certainly nothing exotic or especially pricey.

The point is that Apple has near absolute control over their hardware thus minimizing the number of drivers required. Windows has to run on any of thousands of models of PCs currently on the market.

William Adams
09-25-2014, 8:08 PM
There are more drivers than you'd think --- look at the success of the OSX86 project.

The big thing is there are nice techniques for polling the hardware and only loading the drivers which are needed.

Apple also has the advantage of having the cash to fund manufacturers building infrastructure and as a condition of doing so, get a period of exclusivity on the production.