Less glossy Waterlox finish?

[Gary R Katz]

I'm finishing an oak dining room table and have read extensively about finishes on this forum. Like a lot of other people I'm trying to develop a finish that protects the wood from stains, but not feel encased in plastic. I decided to use Waterlox Sealer/Finish but since I don't want a semi-gloss finish I was going to use Waterlox satin varnish for the final coat. When I tested this plan I thought the satin finish was too flat. I wrote to the company about blending a little Sealer/Finish into the satin varnish to get the satin to "pop" out just a little. Waterlox wrote back and recommended against this, but didn't provide an explanation. I'm thinking about trying it on a scrap piece anyway, or finishing with semi-gloss and trying various grades of extra fine sandpaper, like 2000 grit or finer. Anybody have any thoughts about how to get a Waterlox finish between satin and semi-gloss? Thanks for your thoughts.

[John TenEyck]

The traditional way would be to use gloss, wait a month, and then rub it out with #0000 for a satin finish, or pumice and rottenstone for any higher sheen you want. Modern abrasives would do the same thing, although I've never done enough to know which ones to recommend.

John

[Steve Schoene]

Yes, you can rub out to satin. Test whether the steel wood or pumice is the right sheen. You do want to plan for the rub out, particularly if you are using wipe on Waterlox seal/finish. You should build to about your final thickness of film that you desire, use a sanding block with 320 or 400 grit paper to ensure that the surface is flat and without defects. Then plan to put on a set of three coats, spaced fairly close together, with the next coat being applied as soon as the previous one is no longer tacky usually 2-3 hours. This will let the three final coats all meld together so that the rubbing out process doesn't leave any witness lines if the rubbing cuts through one coat into a lower coat. It's essentially the same as making the last coat full (but excessively so) when applying full strength (50% solids) varnish by brush.

[Prashun Patel]

Does the Original Sealer finish look too glossy to you? It goes on and dries fairly glossy, but after a few weeks, it settles down to a semi-gloss. It's a phenomenon I have not seen with the full gloss Waterlox product or other gloss poly varnishes I've tried. Rubbing can get you there, but you may find that patience with the OSF gets you there with less effort.

[Gary R Katz]

Wow, thanks John and Prashun, I didn't realize the finish might change over the first month. Steve, its good to hear from you about applying the coats when dry instead of 24 hours like the directions say. I'm putting the third coat on the underside of the tabletop so I'm still perfecting the technique. Thanks guys for the important information! SMC does it again!

[Sam Murdoch]

I wrote to the company about blending a little Sealer/Finish into the satin varnish to get the satin to "pop" out just a little. Waterlox wrote back and recommended against this, but didn't provide an explanation.


OOPS - I've done this on several projects,including a table top (actually 1:1 Satin with Sealer/Finish). No compromise as far as I can tell - in the drying or in the durability or in the appearance. My projects look great and are a nice semi-matte sheen.

As Prashun writes however, the Sealer/Finish sheen diminishes pretty nicely given enough drying time.

[Gary R Katz]

Thanks Sam, yet another option for me. I better see how much the sheen diminishes in the first month before I try anything else.

[Bill McNiel]

Waterlox is my go to finish for multiple reasons; moisture protection, self adhearance (no need to sand between coats other than leveling, etc.) and great for scratch repair), versitility/ease of application and a complete spectrum of degree of gloss options. Original has a "reflectivity" of 75 degrees when first applied that reduces to 50-55 degrees in about 30 days, Satin is 20-25 degrees and Gloss 85 degrees.

Yes, you can mix the Original with the Satin. I believe that Waterlox does not reccomend mixing the finishes due to the possibility that the solids may not get appropriately mixed resulting in cloudy sheens.

I use the Original for almoast every sheen below high gloss. I apply multiple wipe on coats but have never tried the recoating when the last coat is nolonger tacky that Steve has proposed (think I'll have to try a test run on that approach as it would save time). I have never had witness lines but maybe I've been lucky.

To your question - rubbing out. I use, and swear by Micro-Mesh pads. This product was originally developed for rubbing out scratches on airliner windows. It consists of 9 grades ranging from 1500 to 12,000 (not USA or Europian P grades) and comes in sheets, cushioned pads and sanding discs. The 1500 is equivillant to US 400, there is a conversion chart included with the product. The 12,000 produces a true super clear high gloss finish. Typically I will rubout a sample panel for the client to choose from or sometimes perform the rubout with them present (this eliminates alot of agony over weather the sheen is what they rewally want). Micro-Mesh is significantly easier to use than pumice or rottenstone.

I have also used 0000 steel wool to bub out a satin finish. I apply Waterlox with blue shop towels and then rub it wet with the steel wool and wipe off with clean towels. Attached is a photo of a live edge table with Original on the surface (rubbed out to its highest sheen) and base (rubbed to a satin with steel wool as described above).
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I got somewhat wordy but I hope this helps you.

[Scott Holmes]

Bill,

If you apply a wipe-on varnish using the same technique as an oil-varnish blend ...as you said; " ...I apply Waterlox with blue shop towels and then rub it wet with the steel wool and wipe off with clean towels." Then you are wasting an expensive varnish for no reason. Wipe it on and leave it alone. Wiping with steel wool and then a clean towel is not the correct application technique for a wipe-on varnish. That is the technique for an oil varnish blend that cannot build a film finish it must be in-the-wood. Oil-varnish blends are too soft to produce a hard film finish. Waterlox is one of the best varnishes out there, stop wasting it. :) Wipe it on like the kid cleans the table just be fore you sit down at the fast food joint.

[Mike Gresham]

Wow, thanks John and Prashun, I didn't realize the finish might change over the first month. Steve, its good to hear from you about applying the coats when dry instead of 24 hours like the directions say. I'm putting the third coat on the underside of the tabletop so I'm still perfecting the technique. Thanks guys for the important information! SMC does it again!

I believe the documentation on the Waterlox site says the sheen will develop for up to 90 days for original. Apparently, Waterlox is very sensitive to environmental factors. They mention a good oxygen supply being being a requirement for curing on the web site. I find that difficult to understand when 3/4 of a can will turn to jello in a month if you don't purge the can.

[Bill McNiel]

Scott,
I believe that using 0000 steel wool with Waterlox to achieve a satin sheen in the final rubout is a fully acceptable approach. I don't find it to be either "expensive or wastefull". This process has consistantly resulted in a natural, no scratch finish that provides moisture protection. I first learned of this approach from Teri Masasci's book "Foolproof Wood Finishing" pg. 147 as adapted from "an unnamed school in Connecticut".

BTW- I'm sure you intended otherwise but your post came across as somewhat of a pontificating edict rather than a suggestion or "in my opinion / experience" type comment. I'm not sure any of us are qualified to judge what is really a "correct application" as regards finishes. Wiping off the final coat removes the steel wool and residue quite nicely leaving a product that wants to be touched. Also, I am aware of Jim Kull's (WOOD Magazine Finishing & Refinishing Forum) wipe on wipe off like the kid at Denny's approach and embrace it fully.

[Kent A Bathurst]

To your question - rubbing out. I use, and swear by Micro-Mesh pads.

Bill -

Help a brudda out here, if you can.
1. What method on the M-M pads? I am thinking on my ROS.
2. Dry? Water as lubricant? Something else? I have a w'lox finish to rub out that is well beyond hte 4 - 6 week cure time.

thanks

Kent

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......... I don't want a semi-gloss finish I was going to use Waterlox satin varnish for the final coat.

My non-expert knowledge base says that you can't get there from here.

Meaning that if you put down satin, then subsequent coats of gloss cannot, ultimately, improve on that.

Generally recommended works the other way: gloss for film build; final wipe-on coat of satin. I have done this a number of times times, works great - but only on commissioned items where the client has signed off on the out-of-the-can satin finish.

Usually just go gloss all the way, then rub-out to get to where I want to be / need to be. That is nice, because you ahve multiple grits/steps, and you can stop and evaluate at each step, then walk away when you hit the 10 ring.

[Bill McNiel]

Kent,
1) I use the M-M pads on my 5" ROS wherever I can and then the pads for detail or edge work that I either can't get to with the ROS or am wary of damaging an adjacent element.
2)I have done both wet and dry depending on how well cured the Waterlox is but prefer dry, less mess. Waterlox has a tendency to "ball up" more with the ROS if not throughly cured through all coats. Less balling with the pads. Turn down the speed of the sander. I use water with a little soap for lubrication when rubbing out wet. Most times I do not have to start with the Black pad (400 grit) but it really does a nice job of leveling if required.

Hope this answers your question. If not PM me - Bill

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent,
1) I use the M-M pads on my 5" ROS wherever I can and then the pads for detail or edge work that I either can't get to with the ROS or am wary of damaging an adjacent element.
2)I have done both wet and dry depending on how well cured the Waterlox is but prefer dry, less mess. Waterlox has a tendency to "ball up" more with the ROS if not throughly cured through all coats. Less balling with the pads. Turn down the speed of the sander. I use water with a little soap for lubrication when rubbing out wet. Most times I do not have to start with the Black pad (400 grit) but it really does a nice job of leveling if required.

Hope this answers your question. If not PM me - Bill

Thnx

Kent

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