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View Full Version : Our 'Brave New World' with Medical Profiling



Jim Koepke
07-21-2014, 1:04 PM
This is not my opinion, it is just sharing an article. The world we knew from five or six decades ago is changing faster than we ever knew.

Actuaries predict your life span. Banks track your spending habits. Now, your employer can tell whether you’ll have diabetes a year from now.

And the federal government is encouraging businesses to use that information to tell you how to eat and exercise, to “data mine” for your own good and the employer’s bottom line.

Medical records, social media, credit card records and new activity tracking gadgets like Fitbits are being used to assess your riskiness to yourself and to the cost-conscious health care system.

Aetna is among the companies paving the way. It’s using data analytics and interventions on its own 50,000 employees — and about 40 of the companies it insures are using them, too.

The data explosion — some would say intrusion — is being fueled by trends in the private sector and by federal policies, including elements of Obamacare.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/07/data-mining-health-care-109153.html#ixzz387hMdj37

Phil Thien
07-21-2014, 2:09 PM
Obesity and obesity-related illness/disease has become the last acceptable discrimination. You can say whatever you want, do whatever you want, thin people "hate on" fat people with impunity.

Brian Elfert
07-21-2014, 2:19 PM
I think most people figure you can't control if you are male or female, your skin color (ethnicity), your age, or your sexual orientation, but these same people figure that someone's weight is something the person can control. Someone who is obese may have an eating disorder and really can't control their weight.

Jim Koepke
07-21-2014, 2:22 PM
Obesity and obesity-related illness/disease has become the last acceptable discrimination. You can say whatever you want, do whatever you want, thin people "hate on" fat people with impunity.

I was also reading food quotes today.

"Pizza tastes better than it feels to be thin." - Unknown

Be careful what you say to an overweight person or you might find out what it feels like to support all that weight when they sit on you.

jtk

Pat Barry
07-21-2014, 2:44 PM
I know many companies are encouraging their employees to participate in biometrics data - they offer reduced health care rates for those who participate. I think the end is near - I don't want my company know that much about me. I think its really none of their business - much like it should be none of their concern what race I am or what religion I participate in or what political party I vote for. If it isn't about my job then they should stop 'helping me' - I don't want their help.

Eric DeSilva
07-21-2014, 2:53 PM
Obesity and obesity-related illness/disease has become the last acceptable discrimination. You can say whatever you want, do whatever you want, thin people "hate on" fat people with impunity.

First, I don't think that is correct. It's been my experience that people seem to get very bent out of shape when obesity makes someone a target. So I don't see hating on obese people as being condoned generally.

Second, discrimination is sort of a loaded word, and the way you have made the statement seems to imply the discrimination is inherently wrong--it is almost as if there is an unwritten "unjust" in front of discrimination. But I'll point out that discrimination isn't inherently wrong--discriminating between two things is perfectly acceptable in lots of different contexts, say, those running red lights (who get tickets) and those that don't (who don't get tickets). Discrimination seems--at least to me--to warrant the pejorative connotation where we change our behavior towards people who exhibit characteristics that are immutable (race, gender, age, sexual preference) or protected (religion, marital status). But that puts obesity into a tricky category, because there are clearly people who are obese because of medical conditions (or even certain environmental factors) who can't change. But there are also people who can change--eat less, eat better, exercise more. I remember reading an essay probing why it is OK to walk up to someone smoking and say "that's disgusting," but not to walk up to an obese person eating a Big Mac and tell them the same thing. In some ways there are similarities--activities that, with long term habits, endanger the person and arguably also impose societal costs by raising the health care costs of everyone. Food for thought, so to speak.

Scott Shepherd
07-21-2014, 3:04 PM
It's really sad to me that people are handing over their privacy rights by the box load and it doesn't seem to be a concern for anyone. It's sad because once it's out there, it's out there. You can't unring the bell. I'm pretty geeky, but not an ubergeek and the things I have seen and read about what's being collected and the power it gives people is shocking. I suspect if most people knew what was really happening, they'd revolt against it, however, most are more concerned about who George Clooney is dating than their own privacy. Very sad state of affairs.

This country used to represent freedom. Not so much any more. If you're tracking my every move, my every call, recording every call I make, to every contact I have, storing every email I send, logging and storing all my health information, watching all my spending, so you know when I did order a Big Mac, monitoring all my t.v usage (yes, the suppliers are already doing that), then about the only time I have any freedom is when I'm in the shower.

Chuck Wintle
07-21-2014, 3:44 PM
It's really sad to me that people are handing over their privacy rights by the box load and it doesn't seem to be a concern for anyone. It's sad because once it's out there, it's out there. You can't unring the bell. I'm pretty geeky, but not an ubergeek and the things I have seen and read about what's being collected and the power it gives people is shocking. I suspect if most people knew what was really happening, they'd revolt against it, however, most are more concerned about who George Clooney is dating than their own privacy. Very sad state of affairs.

This country used to represent freedom. Not so much any more. If you're tracking my every move, my every call, recording every call I make, to every contact I have, storing every email I send, logging and storing all my health information, watching all my spending, so you know when I did order a Big Mac, monitoring all my t.v usage (yes, the suppliers are already doing that), then about the only time I have any freedom is when I'm in the shower.
Scott,

Its my guess that most internet users are very unaware of the power of data mining and collection. And once they begin to suspect that information ls being gathered what can they reasonably do about it?

Scott Shepherd
07-21-2014, 4:18 PM
Scott,

Its my guess that most internet users are very unaware of the power of data mining and collection. And once they begin to suspect that information ls being gathered what can they reasonably do about it?


Chuck, it's not the internet that's the issue. It's everything else. From your debit card swipes at the grocery store, Best Buy, Target, to the t.v. you are watching. Yes, they are actually logging the t.v. shows that are watched, building that data profile of you as a customer and using that data (or selling it). I worry far more about the stuff that's non-internet related than I do anything else.

You don't have to be a geek to be worried about someone gathering up all the data about everything you do and selling it to companies that use that data to manipulate you and your buying decisions, insurance risks, health insurance, etc.

People (generally older people) freak out over the thought of identity theft and someone getting access to their bank account. For the most part, that's the least of my worries. Get access to it? No problem, I'll get the money back. Might be an inconvenience for a couple of days, but I can rebuild from that pretty easily. However, take all my lifestyle data and sell it to an insurance company and I doubt I can do much about that.

Dave Anderson NH
07-21-2014, 4:25 PM
Just a friendly warning about the Terms of Service prohibiting political discussions and discourse. I mention this because threads of this type have historically turned into train wrecks and often end up being at best heavily edited by the moderators, but more often end up deleted.

Mike Chance in Iowa
07-21-2014, 4:40 PM
Obesity and obesity-related illness/disease has become the last acceptable discrimination. You can say whatever you want, do whatever you want, thin people "hate on" fat people with impunity.

I disagree with this statement. Having been naturally thin and surrounded by obese people my whole life I deal with just the opposite practically daily. I see overweight people "hate on" thin people with impunity just as much if not more. (This coming from obese people who either have medical issues or are obese from poor eating & lifestyle habits.)

I have always been lean and muscular. No matter how much weight-lifting I did, I could never get big & bulky. This is the way I have always been and will probably always be. I am not underweight or too thin by any means. Because I don't carry extra weight, I have received scathing insults from complete strangers while walking in stores, eating in a restaurants, playing at the beach, you name it. It didn't matter if I was wearing jeans & a long sleeve sweatshirt or wearing shorts. The insults and negative remarks have always been from obese people. 90% of the time I ignore them, while other times I have fought back hoping to educate them so they stop saying such awful things. I have politely asked the person "How can you say I'm anorexic/bulimic/whatever when you can see I have muscle which is toned & fit?" or "If you really feel I'm "blank" shouldn't you be encouraging me to seek medical help instead of insulting me?" I must admit. There have been a few times where particularly mean people have said (insulting skinny joke here) and I have confronted them and asked them "How would you like it if I said (insulting fat joke here)" ... yet it never seems to get thru to them.

Back to the topic at hand. Yup. Technology and times are changing. Not much is private now. Data mining is going on everywhere. Last year we needed to buy newborn diapers while dealing with a hoof injury on our 28 year old horse. We are constantly receiving baby-related offers now at the local stores where we bought them. Maybe in another 16-17 years we will receive graduation notes from them? :rolleyes:

I re-read "A Brave New World" and "1984" last year and they were a very interesting read!

Phil Thien
07-21-2014, 5:07 PM
I disagree with this statement. Having been naturally thin and surrounded by obese people my whole life I deal with just the opposite practically daily. I see overweight people "hate on" thin people with impunity just as much if not more. (This coming from obese people who either have medical issues or are obese from poor eating & lifestyle habits.)

I have always been lean and muscular. No matter how much weight-lifting I did, I could never get big & bulky. This is the way I have always been and will probably always be. I am not underweight or too thin by any means. Because I don't carry extra weight, I have received scathing insults from complete strangers while walking in stores, eating in a restaurants, playing at the beach, you name it. It didn't matter if I was wearing jeans & a long sleeve sweatshirt or wearing shorts. The insults and negative remarks have always been from obese people. 90% of the time I ignore them, while other times I have fought back hoping to educate them so they stop saying such awful things. I have politely asked the person "How can you say I'm anorexic/bulimic/whatever when you can see I have muscle which is toned & fit?" or "If you really feel I'm "blank" shouldn't you be encouraging me to seek medical help instead of insulting me?" I must admit. There have been a few times where particularly mean people have said (insulting skinny joke here) and I have confronted them and asked them "How would you like it if I said (insulting fat joke here)" ... yet it never seems to get thru to them.

Back to the topic at hand. Yup. Technology and times are changing. Not much is private now. Data mining is going on everywhere. Last year we needed to buy newborn diapers while dealing with a hoof injury on our 28 year old horse. We are constantly receiving baby-related offers now at the local stores where we bought them. Maybe in another 16-17 years we will receive graduation notes from them? :rolleyes:

I re-read "A Brave New World" and "1984" last year and they were a very interesting read!

Mike, you must live in some sort of opposite universe, where all the TV and move starts are overweight and the general population is thin and frantically eating Doritos trying to look like some fat guy on the TV. Where women page through the latest fashion magazines only wishing they could somehow bulk-up to look like the supermodels they see. Where the Victoria's Secret Angels are all plus-plus-plus sized to the point where you can't even identify the underwear they're modeling.

Or you're just bragging that you've always been ultra-thin. ;)

Eric DeSilva
07-21-2014, 5:40 PM
Chuck, it's not the internet that's the issue. It's everything else. From your debit card swipes at the grocery store, Best Buy, Target, to the t.v. you are watching. Yes, they are actually logging the t.v. shows that are watched, building that data profile of you as a customer and using that data (or selling it). I worry far more about the stuff that's non-internet related than I do anything else.

I fully agree with you that people need to exercise care about what data they allow to be kept by merchants they deal with (whether virtual or brick-and-mortar), but there are a couple observations I'd make for the record.

First, this isn't new. The digitalization of data has created greater opportunities to correlate material and refine the conclusions people draw from that. But I remember reading an article in the Washington Post 30 years ago about carrier-route-sorted mail and targeted advertising. Basically, even then, knowing the carrier route you were now at plus some tracking that identified the carrier-route locales for your prior residences (which is largely public records), they could build a profile of you that was horribly accurate in terms of marital status, number of kids, age, income and the like. So the fact that there are companies trying to figure out how to market to you better shouldn't be a real surprise, and we should all be careful of the breadcrumbs we leave them.

Second, there is a great distinction I'd draw between individually identifiable data and data in aggregate. Google bought Nest, which makes a thermostat that is hugely consumer-friendly (think iPhone of thermostats) and interconnected. While I'm guessing any Nest user has the option of blocking Google tracking, I'm also guessing that most people haven't opted out and that their data is being collected and Google is permitted to use the data on a non-individually identifiable basis. If you think about it, it is a pretty powerful source of information, but if I was a Nest user, I'm not sure--as long as no one could extract my data--that would bother me. Nor am I certain it should--there is a lot we can learn about when and how people work, vacation, and how they use energy that could be highly beneficial to society at large.

Third, the article that is linked doesn't really seem to make clear whether employees are being compelled to wear activity trackers, or whether wearing an activity tracker provides you a discount on your health insurance. Even in the case where you are wearing one--whether under duress or not--the article isn't particularly clear about whether the company is using your biometric data or not. I like activity trackers--having worn one, I can attest that observed behavior changes. Wearing one will cause you to think about upping your step count instead of taking a cab, or upping the stairs climbed count instead of taking the elevator. I can see a company encouraging the use of them purely on that basis, the same way some companies have fitness centers or offer discounts on memberships to gyms.

I don't like the idea of a world where NSA is reading my emails and my employer, health insurance company, and doctors are all sharing my data and coercing me into behavioral changes. But I'm more OK with the world where my employer offers me discounted health insurance for not smoking. The article doesn't seem to get to the core of these distinctions.

Mike Chance in Iowa
07-21-2014, 5:46 PM
Mike, you must live in some sort of opposite universe, where all the TV and move starts are overweight and the general population is thin and frantically eating Doritos trying to look like some fat guy on the TV. Where women page through the latest fashion magazines only wishing they could somehow bulk-up to look like the supermodels they see. Where the Victoria's Secret Angels are all plus-plus-plus sized to the point where you can't even identify the underwear they're modeling.


Or you're just bragging that you've always been ultra-thin.

I didn't say I was ultra-thin nor do I live in a fantasy world. I don't "brag" about my weight & build, but since I have not personally met anyone on this forum, I described my size to indicate I have personal experience with being "hated on" by overweight people. I am not underweight, nor overweight. I am simply saying that it's not only "thin" people who say and do mean things.

Scott Shepherd
07-21-2014, 5:57 PM
Eric, I know they have been trying to collect marketing data for decades. However, it was all anonymous and really vague because everything was paid for with cash or a check and they weren't collecting data from checks and giving that information to the stores you shopped from. Now, with electronic money, everything you touch or do becomes traceable back to you. Not anonymous, it's to you. Target knows I bought a bag of M&M's and that data is collected and stored. My guess is that it's not Target that's doing the data collection, it's a third party company, so that third party company that I didn't give access to (knowingly), now sells that information to the highest bidder. Now someone that I had no transactions with knows my buying habits. I think that's pretty disgusting as far as a privacy issue. So much so that I've gone back to using cash in a lot of places.

I'm fine if you want to track me, as long as you give me the option to opt out of anything you do, or at the very least, inform me that you'll be selling all data collected from my transaction to the highest bidder. You have to label my M&M's with all the nutrition information, so at the least, make me aware that I'm being tracked.

It all seems harmless when you're talking about buying M&M's, but start buying various health related products, then that information goes to the health and life insurance companies and you can't understand why your premiums went through the roof one day. Not to mention the fact that you could be buying them for a parent or a friend who can't get out on their own.

Chuck Wintle
07-21-2014, 6:25 PM
Eric, I know they have been trying to collect marketing data for decades. However, it was all anonymous and really vague because everything was paid for with cash or a check and they weren't collecting data from checks and giving that information to the stores you shopped from. Now, with electronic money, everything you touch or do becomes traceable back to you. Not anonymous, it's to you. Target knows I bought a bag of M&M's and that data is collected and stored. My guess is that it's not Target that's doing the data collection, it's a third party company, so that third party company that I didn't give access to (knowingly), now sells that information to the highest bidder. Now someone that I had no transactions with knows my buying habits. I think that's pretty disgusting as far as a privacy issue. So much so that I've gone back to using cash in a lot of places.

I'm fine if you want to track me, as long as you give me the option to opt out of anything you do, or at the very least, inform me that you'll be selling all data collected from my transaction to the highest bidder. You have to label my M&M's with all the nutrition information, so at the least, make me aware that I'm being tracked.

It all seems harmless when you're talking about buying M&M's, but start buying various health related products, then that information goes to the health and life insurance companies and you can't understand why your premiums went through the roof one day. Not to mention the fact that you could be buying them for a parent or a friend who can't get out on their own.

in general any society that needs to spy on its "citizens" like what we see with the NSA or whatever other agency that is spawned be regarded very warily. as a citizen if i have no privacy of thought, of finances, of relations with others then what am I? I do not like what some say, i have nothing to hide so feel free to look. We should be very very concerned that we are unable to have any privacy.

Jim Koepke
07-21-2014, 6:36 PM
Basically, even then, knowing the carrier route you were now at plus some tracking that identified the carrier-route locales for your prior residences (which is largely public records), they could build a profile of you that was horribly accurate in terms of marital status, number of kids, age, income and the like. So the fact that there are companies trying to figure out how to market to you better shouldn't be a real surprise, and we should all be careful of the breadcrumbs we leave them.

Some of the marketers are good at this, some are a bit annoying. Most annoying is after making a purchase the retailer sends a special coupon good for buying more of what was just purchased.

Google tracking is kind of strange. If you look at items on some sites you will soon start seeing ads on web pages for their products.


People (generally older people) freak out over the thought of identity theft and someone getting access to their bank account. For the most part, that's the least of my worries. Get access to it? No problem, I'll get the money back. Might be an inconvenience for a couple of days, but I can rebuild from that pretty easily.

You could go into a recovery business or write a book if this is true. The Federal Trade Commission estimates an average of 6 months and 200 hours of work to clean up an identity theft episode. This of course depends on what was done, how fast it was caught and whether your information was sold to other ID thieves.

Phil Thien
07-21-2014, 6:37 PM
I didn't say I was ultra-thin nor do I live in a fantasy world. I don't "brag" about my weight & build, but since I have not personally met anyone on this forum, I described my size to indicate I have personal experience with being "hated on" by overweight people. I am not underweight, nor overweight. I am simply saying that it's not only "thin" people who say and do mean things.

I'm sure plenty of overweight people say and do mean things. But to turn a positive (like being a healthy weight or being smart or attractive or successful) into a negative as you've described is a new one to me.

Jason Roehl
07-21-2014, 6:39 PM
Dang it, now I'm hungry for M&Ms.

Mike--I'm right with you. I've been thin my whole life and have heard many negative comments about it from people who were obese. I used to hate it, now I just feel sorry for those folks--to have to live with that extra weight and the bad attitude.

Rich Engelhardt
07-21-2014, 6:56 PM
LOL!

Figures,,,,,I went from being the smoking outcast to being the fatso outcast!

Can't help winnin for losin I guess!
I have really blimped up the last year. No matter what I try though, I just can't shave off more than a few pounds.
I miss the days when I could drop 25 pounds in a couple weeks by just eliminating soft drinks and cutting down on the portions.

Pat Barry
07-21-2014, 7:15 PM
--activities that, with long term habits, endanger the person and arguably also impose societal costs by raising the health care costs of everyone. Food for thought, so to speak.
This is the single argument that threatens to take away every personal 'freedom' an individual can have in favor of the 'better good'. Hope this is not too political - I apologize in advance as I do not mean to offend anyone here.

Removed verbiage

Phil Thien
07-21-2014, 7:32 PM
First, I don't think that is correct. It's been my experience that people seem to get very bent out of shape when obesity makes someone a target. So I don't see hating on obese people as being condoned generally.

Tell that to Chris Christie, a famous fat target. Or Jay Leno, a fat-joke sharp-shooter. How about Al Franken's book, "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot?" Would a publisher dare publish a book titled "Such and such is a Worthless Alcoholic?"


Second, discrimination is sort of a loaded word, and the way you have made the statement seems to imply the discrimination is inherently wrong--it is almost as if there is an unwritten "unjust" in front of discrimination. But I'll point out that discrimination isn't inherently wrong--discriminating between two things is perfectly acceptable in lots of different contexts, say, those running red lights (who get tickets) and those that don't (who don't get tickets). Discrimination seems--at least to me--to warrant the pejorative connotation where we change our behavior towards people who exhibit characteristics that are immutable (race, gender, age, sexual preference) or protected (religion, marital status). But that puts obesity into a tricky category, because there are clearly people who are obese because of medical conditions (or even certain environmental factors) who can't change. But there are also people who can change--eat less, eat better, exercise more. I remember reading an essay probing why it is OK to walk up to someone smoking and say "that's disgusting," but not to walk up to an obese person eating a Big Mac and tell them the same thing. In some ways there are similarities--activities that, with long term habits, endanger the person and arguably also impose societal costs by raising the health care costs of everyone. Food for thought, so to speak.

First of all, that essay was pretty twisted and started with a false premise, because it is NOT okay to walk up to a smoker and say "that is disgusting." Generally speaking, it is never appropriate to approach someone and tell them they are disgusting.

And while leaving the little fat kid for last when selecting teams for gym class may seem at least an understandable form of discrimination, what about the fat (but whip-smart) kid selected last for an academic challenge?

Because being overweight isn't always relevant. Sure, I wouldn't want an obese firefighter charged with saving me from a rapturous fire. OTOH, I don't really care if my librarian is overweight. Nonetheless, an overweight librarian is likely to be on the receiving end of at least some amount of discrimination proportional to their BMI, when it comes to promotions and often favoritism shown by supervisors that don't have a weight problem.

Scott Shepherd
07-21-2014, 7:42 PM
You could go into a recovery business or write a book if this is true. The Federal Trade Commission estimates an average of 6 months and 200 hours of work to clean up an identity theft episode. This of course depends on what was done, how fast it was caught and whether your information was sold to other ID thieves.

Jim, it might take 6 months to get your credit score and all that back, but you'll have the money back in your bank account for any fraudulent transactions pretty darn fast. Someone charges things to your credit card, just call it in, file the report, and it's reversed. Overall, it's pretty painless, in a relative term, and there are open and published steps to take and fix it all. However, when someone gathers your data without your knowledge, exactly how do you fix that? If they take medical information and sell it to insurance companies, how can one ever recover from that? My point being that's a lot more trouble to deal with, especially when you aren't aware it's happening, than dealing with things that smack you in the face when they happen, like someone accessing your bank account information.

Jim Matthews
07-21-2014, 8:47 PM
The business of companies is minding their bottom line, and that may include yours.

If you think Human resources is a department advocating for the interest of employees,
you're not following the trends. They're looking for costs to cut, at every turn.

It's the same logic behind releasing elderly, non-violent inmates, dumping potential liabilities on the actuarial table.

This isn't even news, and it's not the government behind the approach.
It's about risk-aversion, and detecting aberrations that increase risk to the insurer.

http://www.actuarialfoundation.org/research_edu/fundamental.pdf

Jim Matthews
07-21-2014, 8:52 PM
The article doesn't seem to get to the core of these distinctions.

I'm not convinced everyone responding to this article noted such distinctions, or even read to the last line.
It feels more like the electric rabbit was set in motion, the gates opened and THEY'RE OFF!

293518

Phil Thien
07-21-2014, 9:18 PM
There was a radio program on this morning in the local (Milwaukee) area where the host was asking whether being fat was a disability. He was objecting to overweight/obese people claiming they're disabled just like (for example) a war veteran that had lost their legs. We can all see that point (I hope). But it was clear he really didn't like fatties.

But he went on to say that he never had a problem with his weight, being "a buck eighty-five" (his words) and 5' 10". I didn't have the heart to call and inform him that according to the BMI scale, he is overweight and just about 25 pounds shy of being obese.

Twenty five pounds isn't an insignificant amount of weight, but as I've gotten older I've actually lost weight as most of my friends have started to pack it on. Older people that were typically rather slender throughout their entire lives are often hiding quite a few extra pounds under their elastic trousers and loose-fitting sweatshirts. In fact, a friend that often teased me about my weight when I was younger is really struggling and it looks a bit like the proverbial tables have turned.

Phil Thien
07-21-2014, 9:33 PM
I really don't have any problem with employer programs designed to improve the health of their workforce. In fact, I imagine we will eventually learn a great deal from these programs.

I do know at least some programs haven't worked as great as employers had hoped because of some initial incorrect assumptions. There are, for example, extremely sedentary people that don't weigh a nickel over their ideal weight but have little to no muscle tone and even develop terrible back and other problems. So rewarding people on low weight alone really isn't an answer.

Offering people free gym memberships, installing exercise equipment at work and making it available before/during/after work, making improvements in the cafeteria, rewarding people for exercising, making certain people receive routine exams, arranging team walks/runs/bike rides for charity, offering lifestyle coaching, providing physical trainers, starting weight loss/exercise challenges, etc., all seem like great ideas to me.

I could really care less if an employee data mines me. Of course, I've been self-employed almost my entire life, but I get terrific job offers and if one of them came along with a caveat that I submit to a program to improve my health, I sure wouldn't consider than a negative.

David Weaver
07-21-2014, 10:57 PM
I think most people figure you can't control if you are male or female, your skin color (ethnicity), your age, or your sexual orientation, but these same people figure that someone's weight is something the person can control. Someone who is obese may have an eating disorder and really can't control their weight.

This is a rare exception, though. Most of us are overweight because we don't care, not because we can't do anything about it.

As a friend used to tell me when I wasn't progressing as fast as I wanted to professionally, "you're not doing it because you don't want to, not because you can't. If you wanted to, you'd do it".

Anyone with an eating disorder could be diagnosed, but the rest of us who are just sedentary and don't want to be inconvenienced by not satisfying boredom with food would be diagnosed as....being too lazy to do something about it.

Greg Peterson
07-22-2014, 12:57 AM
Chuck, it's not the internet that's the issue. It's everything else. From your debit card swipes at the grocery store, Best Buy, Target, to the t.v. you are watching. Yes, they are actually logging the t.v. shows that are watched, building that data profile of you as a customer and using that data (or selling it). I worry far more about the stuff that's non-internet related than I do anything else.

You're right. The Internet is simply an infrastructure that allows business and commerce to operate more efficiently. We consumers, benefit from commerce demand for this communications infrastructure. If commerce did not require the Internet, there would be no Internet. That is the simple reality of the matter.

But the Internet also serves their masters in other, unintended ways. Namely, the ability to relate seemingly unrelated bits and pieces of a persons life, to create a disturbingly detailed analysis of any individual they so choose.

Without the Internet, all those relational databases wouldn't be able to talk to each other, relating their stories about you or I.

The Internet is as ubiquitous as electricity. It is the arteries through which commerce must flow. Facebook has it right. We are the product.

David Cramer
07-22-2014, 7:27 AM
I didn't say I was ultra-thin nor do I live in a fantasy world. I don't "brag" about my weight & build, but since I have not personally met anyone on this forum, I described my size to indicate I have personal experience with being "hated on" by overweight people. I am not underweight, nor overweight. I am simply saying that it's not only "thin" people who say and do mean things.

I agree with Mike Chance's remarks 100% as there is usually another side.

I'm not ultra-thin, but I stay in very good shape, run road races/marathons, and try to eat good for the most part. I do it for myself to stay as healthy as possible. I was a decent cross country runner in high school (16:08 for 5k) and have kept running ever since. I do not look down on anyone who is overweight and never have, but truth be told I do feel badly for them.

For the record, I've experienced very rude remarks from family, friends, and strangers while both running and not. My point: Although I obviously can't control comedian's comments on tv, your comment is still very far from a blanket statement.

Respectfully,

David

Chuck Wintle
07-22-2014, 7:55 AM
why is it anyones business if one is fat or thin? This obsession that we must 'look" a certain way is not right. Next thing you know those who do not conform physically to a certain ideal will be shuffled into euthanasia centers to be put down.

Scott Shepherd
07-22-2014, 8:13 AM
Without the Internet, all those relational databases wouldn't be able to talk to each other, relating their stories about you or I.

The Internet is as ubiquitous as electricity. It is the arteries through which commerce must flow. Facebook has it right. We are the product.

Greg, you're taking me too literally. Certainly it's the "internet" that's allowing computers to communicate. When I said I worried about non-internet stuff more than internet, I wasn't referring to the connectivity of computers, but rather things like online related tasks like surfing the internet, emailing, etc.

My point being that you could throw your computer in the trash can and the information that concerns me more than anything else would still continue, having nothing at all to do with the people you email, the sites you visit, or anything else you might do with your own computer.

Curt Harms
07-22-2014, 9:39 AM
why is it anyones business if one is fat or thin? This obsession that we must 'look" a certain way is not right. Next thing you know those who do not conform physically to a certain ideal will be shuffled into euthanasia centers to be put down.

Not quite but I would not be surprised in the not-too-distant future to see those who exhibit 'high risk' behaviors - smoking comes to mind, obesity may be next - to not receive high cost treatments when their illness can be blamed on their 'high risk' behavior.

Phil Thien
07-22-2014, 9:48 AM
For the record, I've experienced very rude remarks from family, friends, and strangers while both running and not. My point: Although I obviously can't control comedian's comments on tv, your comment is still very far from a blanket statement.

Respectfully,

David

Can you guys give me some examples of rude comments directed at a slender person? Without some examples I'm imagining stuff like, "you're so thin you probably don't have any problems shopping for jeans."

During my college years I ran approx. 4-5 miles a day, and often 8-10 miles a day on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I was extremely thin at this time and don't recall anyone ever saying anything hurtful about it.

Mike Chance in Iowa
07-22-2014, 10:08 AM
Can you guys give me some examples of rude comments directed at a slender person? Without some examples I'm imagining stuff like, "you're so thin you probably don't have any problems shopping for jeans."

No Phil, I will not give you examples. These are not comments that should ever be repeated.

Getting back on topic, I agree with Steve/Scott. If you throw your computer in the trash, it's not preventing anyone else from still collecting all of your data every time you purchase something, rent a library book, drive down a toll road, purchase a parking pass, etc.

Brian Elfert
07-22-2014, 10:19 AM
As far as the Internet goes, you have to remember that some of the data collection pays for the "free" websites we all use every day.

Duane Meadows
07-22-2014, 10:19 AM
I was extremely thin at this time and don't recall anyone ever saying anything hurtful about it.

Then you were very fortunate, Phil. Rude people don't need a "good" excuse to rude!

As for data mining, there are several sides to that. Take for instance going to a bank for a loan. It requires you to give the bank certain personal info. Has for a long time. Then your payment habits are sent to credit bureaus. to collect the data. Even Utility companies report late payments. Yeah, you can not use banks... utility options are somewhat more limited depending on where you live. You want credit(basically buying on someone else's dime), there is cost involved, both in interest and anonymity. Guess what? Those folks want to know where to come after you!

Same way with "free" internet services. People seem to think they are provided out of the goodness of someone's heart! Rarely is that the case.

Gonna be that way more and more with medical info. He who pays the bills, sets the rules! And yes, that is a very scary thought.

Much of this info has been public for a long time... just took more work to obtain it!

Guess it is time for us to realize that free services of any kind, aren't really free. Use the "free" service, pay the cost. Or don't use the free service!

David Weaver
07-22-2014, 10:32 AM
Can you guys give me some examples of rude comments directed at a slender person? Without some examples I'm imagining stuff like, "you're so thin you probably don't have any problems shopping for jeans."

During my college years I ran approx. 4-5 miles a day, and often 8-10 miles a day on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I was extremely thin at this time and don't recall anyone ever saying anything hurtful about it.

We had a kid in school and then in college who we called "Bone Rack". I don't think he liked it. It's not so much whether a person is thin or fat, I think it's more about human nature of picking at anyone who is different or who could be perceived as weak. That's sort of an animalistic thing that we try, as decent people, to avoid doing. It never occurred to me in high school that "bone rack" bothered the kid who we called that, and it may not have at all. He was around us and ate normally, but that kind of thing may bother some people who see themselves as different and needing to look more "average". I was in the group of kids fighting to keep weight off, though not overweight at that time, it seemed to me and a lot of other people that we'd love to have had that metabolism.

Phil Thien
07-22-2014, 10:34 AM
No Phil, I will not give you examples. These are not comments that should ever be repeated.

Oh gosh, okay. I don't want anyone to have to relive any painful memories of hurtful comments about them being normal.

David Weaver
07-22-2014, 10:37 AM
why is it anyones business if one is fat or thin? This obsession that we must 'look" a certain way is not right. Next thing you know those who do not conform physically to a certain ideal will be shuffled into euthanasia centers to be put down.

Outside of health care costs, it really isn't. I am overweight, so I'm not casting stones at people who are overweight in general, but it is a simple fact that people who are overweight and obese typically have higher medical claims rates than people who are not. When we no longer pay for our care ourselves, which is essentially the case now, we're essentially having our cake and steak while knowing that only a part of it will come to us in cost because, effectively, we're ordering dinner on a combined check. Sooner or later, everyone wants cake and steak, and the bill is the same as if we'd have been paying our own way, but we don't have that choice.

I recognize that being overweight is a problem, and it's a discretionary problem for an enormous percentage of us - one that reduces quality of life, and in general, length of it, too. I would rather do something about being overweight than assert that it's my right to be overweight and suggest that it's nobody else's business - as a society, we're tied together now and there's very little that we do that doesn't affect someone else.

Harold Burrell
07-22-2014, 10:40 AM
Rude comments...

Personally, I welcome them. Seriously. I am (by nature) a horrible tease. Given the opportunity, I will pick on people mercilessly.

I can be an absolute sarcastic jerk.

However, as much as I like to tease people, I even more dislike hurting people's feelings. So that sentiment "usually" seasons much of my teasings. I try not to "go there" in ways that would be too personal (of course, that depends on how well I know the individual).

As for me, well...I am pretty "thick skinned". Tease me all you want. Just be ready to get it back. ;)

Phil Thien
07-22-2014, 10:51 AM
We had a kid in school and then in college who we called "Bone Rack". I don't think he liked it. It's not so much whether a person is thin or fat, I think it's more about human nature of picking at anyone who is different or who could be perceived as weak. That's sort of an animalistic thing that we try, as decent people, to avoid doing. It never occurred to me in high school that "bone rack" bothered the kid who we called that, and it may not have at all. He was around us and ate normally, but that kind of thing may bother some people who see themselves as different and needing to look more "average". I was in the group of kids fighting to keep weight off, though not overweight at that time, it seemed to me and a lot of other people that we'd love to have had that metabolism.

I suppose.

I don't know of anyone that ate to excess because they were worried about being perceived as thin, but the medical journals are full of stories of young ladies that starve themselves (and purge) because they are worried about being perceived as overweight.

I went out to dinner with friends about six months ago. One friend is having money trouble and was working two jobs and struggling to keep his head above water. This came up because he was resistant to the idea of going to dinner to begin with, and was ordering an appetizer (only) and was only going to have water. 2nd friend was complaining of HIS money trouble, but makes > $200k/year.

And I'm sure our friend making > $200k/year thinks his problems are the same as my friend looking for two nickels to rub together, but they aren't, and my rather penniless friend was understandably confused.

I can understand that someone outside the norm in either direction (being significantly underweight included) would internalize disparaging remarks. But for people of a normal weight to say they've been on the receiving end of disparaging remarks about their weights is akin to me showing up for a Little People of America convention and saying I've been on the receiving end of hurtful comments about my average height, and expecting sympathy.

Jim Matthews
07-22-2014, 10:58 AM
I don't know of anyone that ate to excess because they were worried about being perceived as thin, but the medical journals are full of stories of young ladies that starve themselves (and purge) because they are worried about being perceived as overweight.

There are two sides to this. The unrelenting pressure on young people to conform.
And the inability of the overweight to conform to an airline seat.

At a certain point, it's not longer just a personal problem.
Accommodation of a "disease" that's caused by indulgence sets up a perverse incentive.

We have to face the consequence of leaving this unchecked;
not enough longterm medical care is available, particularly for the dangerously heavy.

It's the same approach that has lead to lower morbidity and mortality from smoking,
and I would hazard a SWAG that the success of the first lead to the failure of the second.

http://ohlardy.com/mobility-scooters-walle-obesity

Scott Shepherd
07-22-2014, 10:59 AM
As for data mining, there are several sides to that. Take for instance going to a bank for a loan. It requires you to give the bank certain personal info. Has for a long time. Then your payment habits are sent to credit bureaus. to collect the data. Even Utility companies report late payments. Yeah, you can not use banks... utility options are somewhat more limited depending on where you live. You want credit(basically buying on someone else's dime), there is cost involved, both in interest and anonymity. Guess what? Those folks want to know where to come after you!

I have no problem giving the bank information if I apply for a loan. That's not what's happening here. Essentially what's happening (and not with the bank, but with other institutions) is that the company is essentially selling your transaction history to the highest bidder. You wouldn't be happy if the bank took your transactions and sold them to a marketing firm who now knows you buy beer every Tuesday, frequent McDonalds for lunch, etc. If a bank did that, this country would come unglued. However, people are doing that very thing every single day WITHOUT your permission (I don't recall seeing ANY posting on ANY terminal at ANY store that says "By swiping your card, you have given us the right to collect and use data in any way we see fit". Now, if you sign up for their frequent shopper cards, there's probably that line in there. However, I'm just a guy walking in, no relationship with the store's programs, and all I do is buy a bag of chips and now you've logged that data against my debit card and started recording my shopping habits, linking them to my name and card number.

To me, that's a huge violation of privacy. I should be able to opt in or out of anything you plan to do with data collected about me.

Phil Thien
07-22-2014, 11:18 AM
There are two sides to this. The unrelenting pressure on young people to conform.
And the inability of the overweight to conform to an airline seat.

At a certain point, it's not longer just a personal problem.
Accommodation of a "disease" that's caused by indulgence sets up a perverse incentive.

We have to face the consequence of leaving this unchecked;
not enough longterm medical care is available, particularly for the dangerously heavy.

It's the same approach that has lead to lower morbidity and mortality from smoking,
and I would hazard a SWAG that the success of the first lead to the failure of the second.

http://ohlardy.com/mobility-scooters-walle-obesity

I wholeheartedly agree. Mind you, I think I'm the only one in this thread that thinks it is okay for employers to be more proactive in helping employees lose weight/improve health. There is a difference between advocating for obesity and acknowledging the mean-spirited attitude many seem to have towards the overweight.

My point is we can try to be helpful without being jerks, and that too many confuse being a jerk with being helpful.

David Weaver
07-22-2014, 11:42 AM
I have no problem giving the bank information if I apply for a loan. That's not what's happening here. Essentially what's happening (and not with the bank, but with other institutions) is that the company is essentially selling your transaction history to the highest bidder. You wouldn't be happy if the bank took your transactions and sold them to a marketing firm who now knows you buy beer every Tuesday, frequent McDonalds for lunch, etc. If a bank did that, this country would come unglued. However, people are doing that very thing every single day WITHOUT your permission (I don't recall seeing ANY posting on ANY terminal at ANY store that says "By swiping your card, you have given us the right to collect and use data in any way we see fit". Now, if you sign up for their frequent shopper cards, there's probably that line in there. However, I'm just a guy walking in, no relationship with the store's programs, and all I do is buy a bag of chips and now you've logged that data against my debit card and started recording my shopping habits, linking them to my name and card number.

To me, that's a huge violation of privacy. I should be able to opt in or out of anything you plan to do with data collected about me.

Pay with cash and refuse to give any information, zip code or phone number, etc.

I went to harbor freight this weekend, we just got a new one here, which means all of the merchandise is new and the chemical/cosmolene smell was 10 times as strong as usual. I was quite surprised when my $7 order prompted the cashier to ask for my phone number and when I got home, a second copy of my receipt had been sent to my email. Next time, I won't give them my phone number, and we'll see what they do - there's nothing there I can't live without.

I expect it at lowes and other places who want to have a digital copy of everything you do, but I could really do without it there.

As far as life expectancy goes, the OP's email was bizarre in terms of that, because as far as I know, life insurance products have factored in life expectancy for at least several hundred years. It's pretty hard to provide such a thing (insurance based on someone's life) without doing something to estimate when the payment might occur. Iterations before that were no so equitable or economical about what was charged and what was paid.

Data collection about what we do has been going on for an awful long time, too, it just had less resolution and precision and it wasn't used for individual direct marketing like it is now. The resolution and precision of the data, and therefore the applicable uses of it have increased due to computing power and connectivity.

In terms of government having a stake in what we do and how healthy we are, we are all, if we live long enough, destined for medicare. Medicare has a serious and real cost to all of us, and to the extent that we can avoid unnecessary complications from chronic disease, etc, prior to being terminal, it will be better for the system. They have a real mess on their hands with projected deficits as they are. If utilization increases significantly because we have poor lifestyles, but can be extended at length because of things like statins (which had and have a significant observable effect on extending life spans) while incurring high cost of treatment along the way, the problem that creates is just reality - it's inevitable that we would need to try to moderate costs one way or another.

Scott Shepherd
07-22-2014, 11:52 AM
Pay with cash and refuse to give any information, zip code or phone number, etc.

Good luck doing that at the Dr's office. I do try and pay cash when I got into places like that. However, even that won't stop it since they are using facial recognition programs in stores now.

I've often thought about ideas for new businesses that all marketed the fact that nothing about you was being captured or sold to anyone. I think there's increasing value in that business model.

Phil Thien
07-22-2014, 12:19 PM
Good luck doing that at the Dr's office. I do try and pay cash when I got into places like that. However, even that won't stop it since they are using facial recognition programs in stores now.

The FBI has Carnivore for E-Mail servers. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts (in the spirit of this thread) that the FBI and/or other agencies have or are working on servers they could drop into a shopping mall security room that would allow them to grab whatever they need, in the interest of national security of course.

I was recently in the security monitoring room at a large shopping mall. The gear employed was over the top. If you need good enough resolution for facial recognition, they have it in spades.

David Weaver
07-22-2014, 12:23 PM
Yeah, the doctor is probably not permitted to do any such thing at this point. I was referring more to retail. I have never gotten anything at rockler (rockler is very local to me) where they didn't request a phone number, but in the case of rockler, I want the coupons if I can get them because their prices appear to be set such that regular price is after coupon.

Same with HF - except it seems that any magazine that is remotely related to an all male audience will have HF coupons in it. I doubt they're sharing data, but who knows? Maybe they are? Maybe tell have an affiliated line of business and use that.

I think IWF get the record for the amount of junk mail that I receive, though, after unsubscribing every time I get one. They must have caveats in the unsubscribe where it only relieves me from not getting a specific type of email, because something always follows, and I haven't registered for one since 2008. Actually, I've noticed that with unsubscribes from junk mail lately, that they are fairly narrow and there is no option on the unsubscribe page to work back to unsubscribing from *all* junk from a given spam network.

Pat Barry
07-22-2014, 12:39 PM
There are two sides to this. The unrelenting pressure on young people to conform.
And the inability of the overweight to conform to an airline seat.

At a certain point, it's not longer just a personal problem.
Accommodation of a "disease" that's caused by indulgence sets up a perverse incentive.

We have to face the consequence of leaving this unchecked;
not enough longterm medical care is available, particularly for the dangerously heavy.

It's the same approach that has lead to lower morbidity and mortality from smoking,
and I would hazard a SWAG that the success of the first lead to the failure of the second.
Why does everyone feel the need to tell everyone else what they are doing wrong and give the mightier than thou speech. The fact is everyone is different, everyone has their own problems, some more evident than others. Why are people so hesitant to be accepting of this fact instead of feeling the need to dictate lifestyles. Take the high and mighty pink lungers for example. Quit playing the trump card of "its for their own good", or "their problems are costing all of us money". Why do you care so much that I wear a seatbelt for example - are you really concerned for my welfare or the impact on your pocket-book. What about your family - say you have a history of cancer in your family. Why should I be subsidizing your health care costs for that when my own family history doesn't show the same preponderance of risk as yours? This goes on and on. No one is perfect

David Weaver
07-22-2014, 1:12 PM
A history of cancer (assuming it's not smoking related or something) is significantly different than something that is controllable (like wearing a seatbelt), etc, or overeating.

There has never been a time in history that mental illness didn't exist, the diagnosis of it has gotten more precise rather than having superstitious thoughts about origin.

But we have gotten to a point now where a large part of society views obesity as something that has arrived from somewhere else and infected them. If it was uncontrollable, and we had no idea how it occurred, we would see it as a pattern throughout history. But at this point, we don't.

When there is cost sharing, controllable behaviors (like overeating and smoking) become something that everyone has a stake in.

As far as genetic issues, I wouldn't be surprised as genetic identification and possible genetic modification becomes the norm if folks who have a "fixable" history of cancer are forced to get it fixed through some kind of genetic modification or gene therapy.

Mark Bolton
07-22-2014, 1:17 PM
Good luck doing that at the Dr's office. I do try and pay cash when I got into places like that. However, even that won't stop it since they are using facial recognition programs in stores now.

I've often thought about ideas for new businesses that all marketed the fact that nothing about you was being captured or sold to anyone. I think there's increasing value in that business model.

Facial recognition software? Oh lord...

This has been an interesting read.

Reading through this I begin to wonder... What if you were lowe's, dollar general, or any one of the thousands of retailers out there who are being literally robbed blind by an army of thieves who will work endlessly to shop the sales flyers, case stores, come up with elaborate ways to get out of the store with entire cordless drill packages and lord knows what else as opposed to going out and getting a real job. Of course you keep trying and trying with any and every way possible to thwart them. Put it on your manufacturers making them embed theft detection in weird places, invest in alarms at the doors, on and on.. And then of course technology advances and one of the arrows in your quiver becomes the technology for an idiot camera, a computer, and some software, to tell you when a known thief walks through the door. Or even perhaps some algorithm makes it possible to pick up on suspicious movement or actions. Of course all the while its recording your every step, every move, every booger pick and wedgie adjustment. Oh oh! And wait! This technology takes no coffee break, never gets distracted, can be all places at all times, and has no unemployment insurance premium, workers comp, or benefit package! But you'd opt out on moral principal?

I have never ever ever been one to defend the big box stores or corporate america, but when you are the one paying for the losses and your the one struggling to satisfy a customer base that wants one thing and one thing only and thats a cheaper price regardless of quality or national and global conscience, Id almost guarantee you you'd be singing a completely different tune.

Of course all this gathered information is used for things we'd wish it not to be. It irritates me to no end to see the item I looked at on Amazon two days ago pop up on some other website Im looking at, but the choice is mine. Toss the computer. Cut the DSL. The option is there to go straight back to the simple life, the good life. I own a large piece of property. Completely off grid. Solar power, rain water catchment, no telco, in the middle of no where.... I choose a balance. The alternative to all this technology is a lot more work than anyone in this country is willing to endure which is why these topics abound.

The simple fact of the matter is, perhaps other than health care, you have the option to opt out of all you wish to. The simple life is out there to be had. But its just too painful for the vast majority to endure so they want their cake and eat it too.

When I walk into Lowes I know exactly what I am getting long before I walk in the door. To think I would give them my real phone number is ludicrous, to think I am not being watched is ludicrous, to think my card payments are not being logged is ludicrous. I have the option to never walk in there again....

Eric DeSilva
07-22-2014, 1:31 PM
Why does everyone feel the need to tell everyone else what they are doing wrong and give the mightier than thou speech.

I'll agree that society at large loses nothing by dispensing with the holier-than-thou speech, but society is all about telling people what they can and can't do--we routinely balance the rights of the individual against the larger interests of society as a whole. And the perceived balance changes over time. Frankly, it is probably most accurate to frame the debate as "when is paternalistic behavior by the State appropriate?" If there are large costs your behavior imposes on society, I'd argue it can be justified. If it is something that is purely "moral"--say, anti-euthanasia laws--I'm going to say it is pure paternalism and ought to be stopped. So you have to look at individual cases--

-- As far as the "mighty pink lungers," I'm assuming you are talking about anti-smoking. As an ex-smoker, however, I can still appreciate the simple reality here--smoking in public places disturbs nonsmokers and subjects them to increased risk of respiratory distress caused by second hand smoke. In addition, the health issues associated with smoking impose costs on society as a whole (see, e.g., http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/the-cost-of-smoking/). That's probably enough of a justification for legislation around smoking.

-- As far as seatbelts go, the financial costs to society seems like it justifies seatbelt laws--"According to NHTSA, the average charge for an unbelted passenger vehicle to an inpatient facility as a result of a crash injury was over 55 percent greater than the average charge for those who were belted" (http://exchange.aaa.com/safety/roadway-safety/safety-belts/). Since those costs are often transferred to society as a whole, again, I see the justification.

So, in my book, the answer is that if the State is acting out of "concern" for your welfare, the State probably shouldn't be. But if the State is acting out of concern for my pocketbook, it is probably OK.

Phil Thien
07-22-2014, 2:02 PM
Why does everyone feel the need to tell everyone else what they are doing wrong and give the mightier than thou speech. The fact is everyone is different, everyone has their own problems, some more evident than others.

Fixing my own flaws is hard, telling you to fix yours is easy?

Jim Matthews
07-24-2014, 8:01 AM
Quit playing the trump card of "its for their own good", or "their problems are costing all of us money".

I couldn't care less what people do in the privacy of their own homes.
Cancers are a World wide concern, even in places where people watch their weight.

Obesity, isn't.

The precursors for developing cancers are exposure to carcinogens, natural mutations and genetic.
The precursor for obesity is excess calories.

It's a false equivalence and hazy analysis.
If you don't think that fat old people are expensive to maintain,
you haven't read the papers lately.

From the article below:

"“But I can’t charge double for an obese patient,” Carter said.In the end, she says, it comes down to a personal decision."
If they don’t lose the weight, Carter said, “I’m paying the cost of other people’s choices.”

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2012/08/mass-doctor-wont-accept-new-patients-who-are-obese

As someone struggling to maintain a constant weight and has worked in hospital settings for
my entire adult life I can attest to the added cost, physical demand and poor outcomes that
climb along a logarithmic curve with each additional inch around the belt line.

John Coloccia
07-24-2014, 8:16 AM
When there is cost sharing, controllable behaviors (like overeating and smoking) become something that everyone has a stake in.


How about amateurs using woodworking equipment? Meh.

Harold Burrell
07-24-2014, 8:16 AM
I couldn't care less what people do in the privacy of their own homes.
Cancers are a World wide concern, even in places where people watch their weight.

Obesity, isn't.

The precursors for developing cancers are exposure to carcinogens, natural mutations and genetic.
The precursor for obesity is excess calories.

It's a false equivalence and hazy analysis.
If you don't think that fat old people are expensive to maintain,
you haven't read the papers lately.

From the article below:

"“But I can’t charge double for an obese patient,” Carter said.In the end, she says, it comes down to a personal decision."
If they don’t lose the weight, Carter said, “I’m paying the cost of other people’s choices.”

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2012/08/mass-doctor-wont-accept-new-patients-who-are-obese

As someone struggling to maintain a constant weight and has worked in hospital settings for
my entire adult life I can attest to the added cost, physical demand and poor outcomes that
climb along a logarithmic curve with each additional inch around the belt line.




Spare us the Libertarian Theology.

hmmm...

I'm sure I am misreading this. At least I hope I am.

Granted, obesity is a health problem. But then (as you stated) so is smoking and drinking and...well...stress. But, my question is, what are we to do about it? Ship all of the obese off to "Fat Farms"?

Oh wait, that would cost money.

Perhaps we should just take them out and shoot them. :rolleyes:

John Coloccia
07-24-2014, 8:28 AM
I couldn't care less what people do in the privacy of their own homes.
Cancers are a World wide concern, even in places where people watch their weight.

Obesity, isn't.

The precursors for developing cancers are exposure to carcinogens, natural mutations and genetic.
The precursor for obesity is excess calories.

It's a false equivalence and hazy analysis.
If you don't think that fat old people are expensive to maintain,
you haven't read the papers lately.

From the article below:

"“But I can’t charge double for an obese patient,” Carter said.In the end, she says, it comes down to a personal decision."
If they don’t lose the weight, Carter said, “I’m paying the cost of other people’s choices.”

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2012/08/mass-doctor-wont-accept-new-patients-who-are-obese

As someone struggling to maintain a constant weight and has worked in hospital settings for
my entire adult life I can attest to the added cost, physical demand and poor outcomes that
climb along a logarithmic curve with each additional inch around the belt line.

Spare us the rude and incendiary preaching. Next you'll be saying that poor people should get less healthcare than rich people because they pay less into the system. Or perhaps we should have mandatory employment to make sure everyone pulls their weight, and if you can't get a job in the private sector (or if you're just lazy), we'll send you to a work camp. Because you see, we must have uniformity across the board.

No thanks, comrade.

John Keeton
07-24-2014, 8:41 AM
As expected, this thread has reached rock bottom. We are done here folks!