Couple of newbie questions about my first table

[Alex Vessey]

Hi everyone,

I recently started work on my first-ever project, a maple farmhouse style table, and I have a few questions I haven't been able to answer through scouring the web and figured I should run by the experts:

1. I recently, much to be joyful surprise, found out that my dad has a router, which means I'll be able to use the groove and button/fastener system to attach the apron to the top and hopefully prevent any issues due to wood expansion. Is there any difference between metal fasteners and wood buttons beside aesthetics? I want to make some buttons for the experience but in case they don't turn out I'd like to know if the fasteners are an acceptable substitute. If I do decide to use buttons, does it matter what type of wood I use? I'm not sure I'll have enough scrap maple around but I have a bunch of pine.

I'm also not sure how many fasteners to use - is there a good rule of thumb for this (one for every foot or two of apron or something like that?).

2. Is it necessary to use corner supports? It seems like it would be prudent, but my table isn't going to be enormous - the top will be ~60x32" and the frame will be ~53x28". Assuming yes, is there a preferred method between using wood pieces cut at 45 degree angles and fastened to the two aprons vs. using those metal brackets? How necessary is the big support screw that attaches the support to the table leg?

3. Should I do 1 or 2 horizontal supports (between the long sides of the apron). I have wood for two but am not sure how much support the table needs given that it's on the smaller side as kitchen tables go.

4. The internet seems to be divided as far as getting a dark finish on maple goes - from what I can gather the best approach to avoiding blotching seems to be via using aniline dyes. I've read people recommending a coat of shellac on top once you're done dying and/or staining to the desired darkness before you finish with a pigment stain, but then there are others who don't do either of these things. Any thoughts?

I also read that you can put some dye in your polyurethane to help get it darker; has anyone had any luck with this?

Thanks in advance; I know it's a million questions, so I really appreciate it :) I love wood furniture, and the idea of being able to admire something I made with my own hands is truly awesome so I want to nail this as well as I can.

[Jamie Buxton]

1. I recently, much to be joyful surprise, found out that my dad has a router, which means I'll be able to use the groove and button/fastener system to attach the apron to the top and hopefully prevent any issues due to wood expansion. Is there any difference between metal fasteners and wood buttons beside aesthetics?

Not much.

I'm also not sure how many fasteners to use - is there a good rule of thumb for this (one for every foot or two of apron or something like that?).

That will do.

2. Is it necessary to use corner supports?

I take it that your table will have legs near the corners, and aprons running from leg to leg. If the corner joinery is glued mortise-and-tenon, then those corner brackets are not necessary. They're mostly useful if you want to remove the legs to move or ship the table.

3. Should I do 1 or 2 horizontal supports (between the long sides of the apron). I have wood for two but am not sure how much support the table needs given that it's on the smaller side as kitchen tables go.

Not necessary.

4. The internet seems to be divided as far as getting a dark finish on maple goes - from what I can gather the best approach to avoiding blotching seems to be via using aniline dyes. I've read people recommending a coat of shellac on top once you're done dying and/or staining to the desired darkness before you finish with a pigment stain, but then there are others who don't do either of these things. Any thoughts?

Stains obscure the beauty of wood. If you want a dark table, buy dark wood. If you want a light table, buy light wood -- like maple.

[Alex Vessey]

1. I recently, much to be joyful surprise, found out that my dad has a router, which means I'll be able to use the groove and button/fastener system to attach the apron to the top and hopefully prevent any issues due to wood expansion. Is there any difference between metal fasteners and wood buttons beside aesthetics?

Not much.

Good deal, thanks!

I'm also not sure how many fasteners to use - is there a good rule of thumb for this (one for every foot or two of apron or something like that?).

That will do.

Roger that!

2. Is it necessary to use corner supports?

I take it that your table will have legs near the corners, and aprons running from leg to leg. If the corner joinery is glued mortise-and-tenon, then those corner brackets are not necessary. They're mostly useful if you want to remove the legs to move or ship the table.

Yup, the legs will be very near the corners with an inch or two of overlap on each side for the top. I was planning on attaching the corners using pocket holes not mortise and tenon as I think that's a little beyond my current capabilities (though if you know if a good tutorial maybe I can work it out. I'm a quick learner!).

3. Should I do 1 or 2 horizontal supports (between the long sides of the apron). I have wood for two but am not sure how much support the table needs given that it's on the smaller side as kitchen tables go.

Not necessary.

Not necessary at all or should I still use 1? I will have enough extra wood to make one that I can't return, but as is, the top is quite heavy and solid.

4. The internet seems to be divided as far as getting a dark finish on maple goes - from what I can gather the best approach to avoiding blotching seems to be via using aniline dyes. I've read people recommending a coat of shellac on top
once you're done dying and/or staining to the desired darkness before you finish with a pigment stain, but then there are others who don't do either of these things. Any thoughts?

Stains obscure the beauty of wood. If you want a dark table, buy dark wood. If you want a light table, buy light wood -- like maple.

Stains in general, or pigment stains like minwax? Let's assume I'm an amateur (guilty) and that I found a good deal on some scrap maple and didn't know what I was getting myself into from a finishing perspective. I'm sure it looks nice with a light stain, but if I absolutely wanted to go dark on it would the dye-shellac-poly approach be feasible? I really like dark furniture that shows its grain. I realize now that I may have made a mistake but I'm trying to discern if it's one from which I can't recover or one if it's is salvageable. The consensus seems to be that dyes work fairly well if approached correctly for the steps and overall approach seems uncertain. Or is this a mission impossible and I would be better sucking it up and appreciating the natural grain with a light finish?


Thanks a lot Jamie, I really appreciate you weighing in!

[Jerry Miner]

If I do decide to use buttons, does it matter what type of wood I use?

I don't think I would use pine--too soft. I would use a hardwood or the metal clips.

I'm also not sure how many fasteners to use - is there a good rule of thumb for this (one for every foot or two of apron or something like that?).

Yes. Something like that.

is there a preferred method between using wood pieces cut at 45 degree angles and fastened to the two aprons vs. using those metal brackets?

The "preferred" method is good ol' mortise-and-tenon joints. If you are considering mitering the aprons (45 degree cuts) around the legs and nailing or screwing (or gluing) the apron-to-leg connection, you are looking at a weak connection. If you don't use M&T, then use the metal corner brackets. Much stronger than a mitered joint. When the aprons butt into the legs, and are held tightly, they create anti-racking resistance that you won't get with mitered-and-fastened joints.

How necessary is the big support screw that attaches the support to the table leg?

If you're using the brackets, that screw is critical. It's what keeps the leg-to-apron connection tight.

Should I do 1 or 2 horizontal supports (between the long sides of the apron).

Not necessary, as Jamie said.

getting a dark finish. Any thoughts?

Experiment on scrap. Dyes, stains, toners,... all work. See what you like, in both process and results.

[Jamie Buxton]

...I really like dark furniture that shows its grain....

Stain is a translucent color addition. That is, the end result is the combination of the underlying wood colors plus the monochromatic stain color. And that means that the darker the stain, the more the combination looks only like the stain. So getting "dark" "grain" and "maple" all together ain't gonna happen. You can get any two together, but not all three.

[Alex Vessey]

If I do decide to use buttons, does it matter what type of wood I use?

I don't think I would use pine--too soft. I would use a hardwood or the metal clips.

I'm also not sure how many fasteners to use - is there a good rule of thumb for this (one for every foot or two of apron or something like that?).

Yes. Something like that.

is there a preferred method between using wood pieces cut at 45 degree angles and fastened to the two aprons vs. using those metal brackets?

The "preferred" method is good ol' mortise-and-tenon joints. If you are considering mitering the aprons (45 degree cuts) around the legs and nailing or screwing (or gluing) the apron-to-leg connection, you are looking at a weak connection. If you don't use M&T, then use the metal corner brackets. Much stronger than a mitered joint. When the aprons butt into the legs, and are held tightly, they create anti-racking resistance that you won't get with mitered-and-fastened joints.

How necessary is the big support screw that attaches the support to the table leg?

If you're using the brackets, that screw is critical. It's what keeps the leg-to-apron connection tight.

Should I do 1 or 2 horizontal supports (between the long sides of the apron).

Not necessary, as Jamie said.

getting a dark finish. Any thoughts?

Experiment on scrap. Dyes, stains, toners,... all work. See what you like, in both process and results.

Thanks for weighing in Jerry; I appreciate you taking the time.

To respond to the point about corner braces: I think I was unclear. I don't plan on mitering the aprons themselves, but rather using a piece of mitered wood to brace the corner like this: http://removeandreplace.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/how-to-build-a-vintage-dining-room-table_13.jpg .

Were I to drill a bracket through the center of a similar brace to the one in the picture into the legs would that be sufficient to brace the table? I like the look of the wood braces but I'm open to the most stable and approachable method. In the case of using metal braces, is the best option one that digs into the apron via a cut slot like this http://www.rockler.com/kerf-mount-corner-brackets-for-table-aprons-kerf-mount?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&sid=V9146&gclid=CJS984mi0L8CFQwQaQodhykAlw?

Thanks again! Nothing beats test runs for finishing, it seems, so that's tops on my menu this weekend.

[Alex Vessey]

Stain is a translucent color addition. That is, the end result is the combination of the underlying wood colors plus the monochromatic stain color. And that means that the darker the stain, the more the combination looks only like the stain. So getting "dark" "grain" and "maple" all together ain't gonna happen. You can get any two together, but not all three.

Hm, I think I get what you're saying in general, but how do we get oak like we see in mission furniture when it starts out so light? I suppose what I mean is that I'd like to see the grain but I'd also like it combined with a darker color, if possible, not that the grain is 100% the final goal. I'm probably failing to fully express myself in this capacity due to my lack of appropriate terminology or experience. I'd like to showcase the wood but don't want something on the white/amber/honey spectrum and would thus be perfectly happy with something as dark as this:

http://www.therusticcountrybarn.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/Table%20Detail_1.jpg

[Jerry Miner]

OK. I get it now. A picture is worth a thousand words!

Those wood braces would work fine, IMHO. A big lag screw or hanger bolt through the brace and into the leg will provide the tight connection you will want, "cinching" the leg up tight to the aprons. Several wood screws through the brace into the apron will provide the shear resistance that you'll need to make the connection function properly.

I disagree somewhat with Jamie on stain color. I think you can stain/dye maple quite dark and still see wood grain. Dye will show the grain more than a pigment stain.

Let us know how this goes.

[Rich Enders]

Attached is a photo of a maple chair which was hit with some aniline. The dye was then top coated with shellac, and then finished with lacquer. Saying you can or cannot make maple dark and still show the grain is relative. Dyes can
provide a lot of color even in maple without hiding the grain. Further application of a pigment based stain if aggressively wiped off should help contrast the early and late wood with minimal hiding of the grain.293292

[Jamie Buxton]

Attached is a photo of a maple chair which was hit with some aniline. The dye was then top coated with shellac, and then finished with lacquer. Saying you can or cannot make maple dark and still show the grain is relative. Dyes can
provide a lot of color even in maple without hiding the grain. Further application of a pigment based stain if aggressively wiped off should help contrast the early and late wood with minimal hiding of the grain..

That photo makes my point. First, the chair is not dark. It is only kinda medium-brown. Second, the grain, while it is still visible, is less observable than if the maple were unstained. I can barely see it in that photo. Mostly what I see is the one color of the stain.

[Alex Vessey]

Hi everyone, I finally finished this up a week or two ago and wanted to drop by with some pictures. Thanks again for all the help, it's an invaluable resource!

Here's an album of (some) of my process. (http://imgur.com/a/NtWza)

Things I learned:
-Sanding is to woodworking as cleaning is to brewing, at least if you don't mill your wood well.
-Shellac is hard to apply by hand.
-I need a moisture meter
-Things will go wrong that you could never plan for. Don't let them get you down; Instead, breathe deeply and figure out how to fix them.

[Jerry Miner]

Thanks for sharing, Alex. Nice looking table. I wish you continued success in your future projects!

[Bill Neely]

Nice table Alex, I enjoyed looking at your pictures and reading the comments.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Very nice / impressive.

How did you flatten the top? One photo has a belt sander sitting on top of the table. Did you use a belt sander to do this? I have never used a belt sander to flatten a top, but I think that I recently read about someone using a belt sander as follows:



Run the belt sander across the grain to catch those imperfections where boards meet.
Run the belt sander with the grain.
Switch to a ROS


I always find those large expanses intimidating. To date, I have always done this with my meager hand plane skills followed by a ROS. I am left with the impression that if I had better hand plane skills that I would not be following up with a ROS.

[Alex Vessey]

Very nice / impressive.

How did you flatten the top? One photo has a belt sander sitting on top of the table. Did you use a belt sander to do this? I have never used a belt sander to flatten a top, but I think that I recently read about someone using a belt sander as follows:



Run the belt sander across the grain to catch those imperfections where boards meet.
Run the belt sander with the grain.
Switch to a ROS


I always find those large expanses intimidating. To date, I have always done this with my meager hand plane skills followed by a ROS. I am left with the impression that if I had better hand plane skills that I would not be following up with a ROS.

Thanks Andrew! Long story short, hours and hours of sanding.

I started going with the grain using a belt sander and 120 grit. Did this for a few hours which put a decent dent into the leveling work but also left plenty of gouges, probably due to a combination of poor technique and an uneven surface, which I tried to smooth out with the ROS. After reassessing it and realizing it was still scuffed and not particularly level, I tried a attacking it diagonally followed by more with-the-grain sanding with the belt sander. This seemed to level it pretty well but also left it pretty gouged up and, in turn, led to hours of painstaking sanding with a pad sander and 80 grit paper to get it as free of imperfections as possible.

All in all it actually turned out pretty smooth but I think better milling and leveling before my glue-up would have saved me some serious manual labor. I also didn't have access to any hand planes so I couldn't go that route. I'm going to look into getting a couple next time I need to make a table of any sort as it seems to be quiet a popular route. Or I'll just spend that cash to build a router sled and use that as I want to do some work with slabs and that seems to be the best way to flatten them.

[Chris Padilla]

I think you did pretty well, Alex, and you learned a lot as well! Keep going...it only gets worse! hahaha ;)

[Alex Vessey]

I think you did pretty well, Alex, and you learned a lot as well! Keep going...it only gets worse! hahaha ;)

Thanks Chris! I definitely learned a lot, but all it did was make me want to buy more tools and do more projects! I have a walnut slab in my garage waiting to be worked on now, in fact, and only the faintest idea what I'm going to do with it!

[Bruce Page]

"but all it did was make me want to buy more tools and do more projects!"

You are in trouble! :)

Great job on the table. If that is your first big undertaking I want to see your work in a year or two!

[David Eisenhauer]

1) Very nice result for a first/second/tenth effort. Pressing the "like" button here. 2) I'm not sure exactly how you did the top glue up, but consider gluing one board to another at a time (preferably using cauls) so you can get a better edge matchup to help eliminate lots of the top leveling (either sanding or planning). Note that the "another" board can (and will) be more than one board that has already been glued and dried. In other words, you only ever have one edge matchup to fuss with at a time. 3) Sanding is the slowest/most inaccurate way to level out a surface. Folks with the smaller power planers ("lunchbox" or table top planers) typically glue up sections to a max of 12" wide, run the individual sections through the planer and then only have one/two or three edge matchups to fuss with. 4) I would go the plane method over the router method for leveling. The router only cuts a narrow path at a time and can still leave stuff to sand down. It is tedious. Even if you are not "Mr Super Planer" at first, the not-quite-the best planning will result in lots less sanding than your previous method. 5) Keep on following Jeff Jewitt's finishing advice. 6) If I use a corner brace on a table, I like it to touch the back of the leg and not have my screw leap a gap. Just me. 7) Get started on the next project.

[Alex Vessey]

1) Very nice result for a first/second/tenth effort. Pressing the "like" button here. 2) I'm not sure exactly how you did the top glue up, but consider gluing one board to another at a time (preferably using cauls) so you can get a better edge matchup to help eliminate lots of the top leveling (either sanding or planning). Note that the "another" board can (and will) be more than one board that has already been glued and dried. In other words, you only ever have one edge matchup to fuss with at a time. 3) Sanding is the slowest/most inaccurate way to level out a surface. Folks with the smaller power planers ("lunchbox" or table top planers) typically glue up sections to a max of 12" wide, run the individual sections through the planer and then only have one/two or three edge matchups to fuss with. 4) I would go the plane method over the router method for leveling. The router only cuts a narrow path at a time and can still leave stuff to sand down. It is tedious. Even if you are not "Mr Super Planer" at first, the not-quite-the best planning will result in lots less sanding than your previous method. 5) Keep on following Jeff Jewitt's finishing advice. 6) If I use a corner brace on a table, I like it to touch the back of the leg and not have my screw leap a gap. Just me. 7) Get started on the next project.

Great feedback Dave, thanks!

I think my issues with flattening were compound: I did the whole glueup at once, which, as you point out, means more leveling. I did use cauls for it (homemade ones!) but it certainly could have been done more carefully; my impatience got the best of me so I went with doing all the boards at once vs. spreading it out. I also wasn't perfect with keeping glue off the top; I got most of it wiped off but some seeped out, and that stuff is a bear to sand off. Next time I'll come back after a half hour and gently scrape it off.

I also tackled it first with a belt sander which left me with a lot of gouging that I had to painstakingly fix later. I'm not sure this was the best course of action. Better attention to the glue-up alignment and glue removal + a hand plane would probably save me a big headache here.

I will definitely be looking to get a planer going forward. It sounds like with a decent power planer and some hand planes I should be able to flatten and edge joint just about anything I tackle. Any recommendations on which type of hand plane to get first? I believe I read a #5 jack plane fits the bill but I'm quite new to that whole world so I want to be sure before I commit any cash to it. Also, should I get an old Stanley off of ebay as I've read many do, or plunk down the $150 for a new one?

[Robert Hazelwood]

Great feedback Dave, thanks!

I think my issues with flattening were compound: I did the whole glueup at once, which, as you point out, means more leveling. I did use cauls for it (homemade ones!) but it certainly could have been done more carefully; my impatience got the best of me so I went with doing all the boards at once vs. spreading it out. I also wasn't perfect with keeping glue off the top; I got most of it wiped off but some seeped out, and that stuff is a bear to sand off. Next time I'll come back after a half hour and gently scrape it off.

I also tackled it first with a belt sander which left me with a lot of gouging that I had to painstakingly fix later. I'm not sure this was the best course of action. Better attention to the glue-up alignment and glue removal + a hand plane would probably save me a big headache here.

I will definitely be looking to get a planer going forward. It sounds like with a decent power planer and some hand planes I should be able to flatten and edge joint just about anything I tackle. Any recommendations on which type of hand plane to get first? I believe I read a #5 jack plane fits the bill but I'm quite new to that whole world so I want to be sure before I commit any cash to it. Also, should I get an old Stanley off of ebay as I've read many do, or plunk down the $150 for a new one?

If you don't mind spending the cash, a new plane from Veritas or Lie-Nielsen will be just about ready to go (just need to polish the back and hone the edge- less than 20 minutes' work). But they will cost about double what you mentioned. I'm not as familiar with the other brands, like Woodriver. I've heard good things, though.

Most of my planes are vintage, and they work very well. For the most part, all I really had to do was clean the plane up generally (rub off rust and gunk with abrasive pads, etc.), flatten the backs of the blades (can take a while, probably the most intensive part of the process. If you're not as OCD as me, you can grind a small back-bevel and eliminate almost all of this work). fit the chipbreaker to the iron, and grind and hone the edge bevel. It does take me several hours per plane. And, mine were in pretty decent shape when I got them. I like older tools and tinkering with stuff, so it's worth it to me.

Whatever you choose, you'll need to learn to sharpen well. You'll need some decent sharpening media (sandpaper can work very well) and probably a honing guide (Eclipse-style guide is about $15). Then, learn to set the chipbreaker close to the edge so that you can plane in any direction without a big fear of tearout- this is huge for planing a glued up panel. There is a learning curve to the act of planing but as long as you got your edge sharp and take a reasonable depth of cut, you should get pretty good results to begin with.

About plane sizes. A hand-tool aficionado would probably begin with a #5 jack plane with a cambered blade taking deep cuts across and diagonally to the grain to get everything basically level. Then progress to a "try" plane, which is usually a jointer plane like a #7 with a modest camber to the edge, taking moderate cuts- this is where you can get things really flat. It will also remove the roughness from the jack plane and leave a very nice surface if you finish off with strokes along the grain. Then if you wanted a perfect surface, they'd use a smoother, #3 or #4 usually, taking a very shallow cut with a freshly sharpened blade. But if you are going to sand it anyways, the ROS will probably work nicely to follow the try plane.

But you could do it all with a single #5 just fine. You wouldn't set it up as aggressively, so it would take you a little longer to bring things down to level if the panel is out of whack to begin with. And it might be trickier to get things laser flat than with a longer plane, but it can be done, and a table top doesn't really need to be that flat...mostly it just needs to not have bumps and hollows large enough to be visible to the eye after finishing.

The whole process is much more pleasant than sanding. If possible, you should see if there's a way to use someone else's plane for a bit to see how it is supposed to feel. How hard it should be to push, how thick of shavings they can take, how sharp the blade is, etc. Hope this helps.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Thank you for your detailed reply...

I work hard to make things as flat and consistent as possible before the big glue-up. It helps a lot with keeping things lined up and minimizes required flattening. I do use cauls as well. That said, it feels like I have trouble making things perfect, and, I never seem to have those perfect glue-ups that I see in videos or on TV shows. Of course, when I have a very wide board (too wide for my equipment), then I have no option but to use the hand tools for the task!

[David Eisenhauer]

There are some books and instructional DVDs that will help define the various wood working processes and methodologies that can help tremendously for newcomers to woodworking. Authors like Paul Sellers, David Charlesworth, Ron somebody, Chris Schwartz (sp?), etc come to immediate mind. You Tube has a bazillion videos that are very informative. Not knowing where you are tool wise and/or how deep you want to venture into hand tooling vs power tooling, I hesitate to tell you what you should get next. Having said that, I don't see how you could go wrong with a #4, #5 or even a #6 plane and I would not agonize over which. Any one of those (or a low angle bevel up plane) that is working right and sharp can be used for most anything and end up better than sanding. As you move on, you acquire more specialized tools, either in the hand category or power category. Two ways to get into hand planning: 1) Buy an older plane that needs rebuilding/refurbishing to save money and perhaps end up with a better understanding of how the plane works, or 2) buy a new one that costs more but works right straight out of the box and you then understand how a good, well setup plane is supposed to work. Best of both worlds - someone local invites you to their shop and lets you handle their planes and describes/instructs their use and setup to you. Sharpening is a must and you will use it for planes and chisels from now on. I'd say do some reading and video watching before opening your wallet. Hopefully you can find someone nearby that can let you fondle the toys as well.

[Alex Vessey]

Wow, thanks so much David and Robert, that's fantastic information.

Luckily I live pretty close to a Woodcraft; last time I was in there I played around with their planes a bit to get a feel for it and found it to be pretty fun. Soothing almost? I'm not sure what they had on display but I imagine they were some of the primo brands, judging from the rest of their tools. I may keep an eye on ebay and see if I can find a decent looking 4/5/6 to play around with. I'm not planning on doing another table for a while but I like the idea of learning how to rehab and maintain the tool, plus I'm cheap, so that route seems like a good fit for me :) Perhaps one day I'll have the cash to allow convenience to overtake elbow grease, but for now I'll be a DIYer (which is fine by me!).

[Jerry Miner]

6) If I use a corner brace on a table, I like it to touch the back of the leg and not have my screw leap a gap. Just me

David (and all)--- I think you should re-think this. The corner brace and screw are there to pull the leg in tight to the aprons, not tight to the brace. A gap between the leg and brace insures that the leg-to-apron joint is tight--and can be tightened further if needed, as shrinkage occurs. My .02