Wood plane blade/iron types and adjustment

[Mike Holbrook]

I have a challenge I am facing with some planes I made and am in the process of improving. I made these planes from parts I bought from Steve Knight just before he closed up his plane making shop. I have a good supply of Steve's old blades but many of the 2" irons are not tall enough for use in the planes I have. That is, the blades barely protrude above the top of the plane body leaving little or no room, once a wedge is added, to adjust the iron with a hammer.

I have noticed that some plane builders add a recess in the mortise for the blade that will accommodate the screw head in a cap iron. Any reason this feature can/should not be added to a wood plane originally designed for a thick solid blade? Other than less wood surface for the wedge to clamp the blade to I don't see one. I realize the wedge may need to be modified or a new one made. I also realize that the bevel on the plane blade needs to be at a compatible/usable angle.

I also have a couple wood planes I bought from a Creeker that were made by Steve Knight. These planes have 2 3/8+" wide mouths but use 2" blades. The plane blades are restricted from moving side to side by a set screw in each side of the planes body. Another feature I am thinking about adding to my planes. Might I be able to design wood planes that could use a variety of blade types?

[Winton Applegate]

Sounds like you are well on your way and pretty much answering your questions your self.
I will enjoy seeing what all you come up with. Partly because, and this will put me down another peg here in the Creek, but I don't know much about Steve Knight and his planes so I will learn some things right off.

As far as the short blades needing to be longer I immediately pictured in my mind attaching extensions to those blades if you really want to use them in the planes you mentioned.

If you make up some mild steel extenders it wouldn't take much to "tack weld" them on. Especially with a TIG welder. Some one who knows what they are doing could make three or four tacks (spots about the size of a pencil eraser head or even smaller) and they would be on there for ever and would not warp the blades, for sure, and it would be child's play to remove the tacks if you ever wanted to revert back to the original length.

For example I wanted a metric square like the one in the photo but I couldn't find one so I bought a couple of thinnish stainless steel rulers and made a square. I intentionally made it as you see it so I could simply pean the tack welds and very precisely correct the square for out of squareness. It came out sweet and has held up for decades.

I put one tack on each side to balance the stresses so it would stay flat.

If I wanted to separate them again I could by lightly touching the spots with a tinny abrasive wheel to score them and crack them apart. If I wanted to get all crazy I could build up the blemished edges with more weld and grind and hone them to near original condition with no pitting. I love TIG welders.

There should be quite a few one man fabricators in most towns that would be wiling to do this for you. I know my friend Ken or I would have been glad to do it when we had our shop. Ask a sports car mechanic or motorcycle mechanic where to find one.

PS: the dime gives the illusion in the photo that the edge is curved but the square is within ten thou square and straight and plenty flat enough.

[Mark Kornell]

Mike,

Sounds like your planes are fairly tall. Any reason you couldn't cut them down a bit - at least in the middle where the iron/wedge rises out of the body - and create more space for adjustments? Maybe cut off the wedge a bit, too. How high is your cross pin?

If you are thinking of switching to a double iron just to get something taller, perhaps you might want to look at single Hocks or the wooden plane irons from LV. Besides the obvious need for a mortise in the bed with a double iron, you will make the mouth opening a fair bit larger. Your wedge will likely still work but may need to be shortened at the thin end.

What would be the advantage to being able to switch iron widths in a plane? Mostly, we adapt to different uses by varying the length of the plane and maybe the mouth opening. I can see switching between straight and cambered irons (or even to a scrub iron). But you can do that with irons of all the same width. But something smoother-length won't function well in a jointer capacity.

[Jim Matthews]

I've had the same problem, with modified Gordon planes that have an even steeper bed angle.

I'm attempting to ad "saddles" behind the blades of my planes as designed by Yeung Chan.

293199

Ron Hock posted a video on his site addressing this with Isaac Fisher in front of the camera.
His later plane designs show clearance abaft the blade to allow space for a hammer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Lly59iv-rSA

[george wilson]

I do not know WHY some makers made such short plane irons. Or,HOW you are supposed to use them at all after they get worn and resharpened till they are GROSSLY too short. This includes Krenov planes. I'm sure all the Krenov devotees will take offense,but his irons are just TOO SHORT. Spend a nickel more. Make the irons decently long. It will also give you something to hang on to when honing them. I don't want to start out with a plane iron that peeks out 1/2" under the wedge. They DO get shorter when you re grind them.

[David Weaver]

Or,HOW you are supposed to use them at all after they get worn and resharpened till they are GROSSLY too short. This includes Krenov planes.

I think most of the people making and buying those planes won't use them enough to find out that it's an issue. I'll bet there are hundreds or thousands of them out there with very little wear on them.

[Mike Holbrook]

The plane bodies I have from Steve Knight may not be what people are use to. Steve had a CNC router that he was making his living with at the time. He routed the plane patterns into the edge of 8/4 boards for me. Purple heart boards that Steve suggested and I bought from his local supplier. I glued the two boards together to make the plane bodies. Then, of course, I had to finish the surfaces, particular those supporting the plane irons. Steve routed out four sets of boards for four planes for me. The longest is a 26" jointer, followed by a 15 1/2" jack/fore plane, and two smoothers. One smoother has a normal blade angle and the other has a high blade angle. Steve routed out a few totes for me with the remains of the purple heart. Steve was out of tote stock at that time. I believe Steve did make some thinner, more like Japanese Kanna bodies, maybe the short blades were for those thinner bodied planes?

All four of these planes have sliding pieces of IPE? wood in recesses at the mouths of the planes. These function as adjustable & replaceable mouths. The jointer and Jack planes have recesses cut into the rear end of the plane bodies for totes. The smooth planes are not long enough for totes. I put the parts together and made wedges years ago. Now I am making some changes to the very basic, square plane patterns...

[David Weaver]

I had one of steve's planes. They're a little fast and loose in the wedge and mouth area (if someone is used to a very tightly made - laterally I mean - vintage plane), but they were generally finished when you got them and he sure didn't charge much.

Once he was really into making kits, I think he was tired of making planes. I got a kit that someone else had bought, and it didn't line up to well, and shortly after, steve shut it down. I don't know where he got his O1 irons, but the are some of the finest-made O1 irons that I have ever used, they just aren't in a proportion that I use any longer. He managed to get irons hard without them being too brittle and they wore well.

At one point, he was trying to get japanese blades in a proportion similar to that of his normal plane blades, but I had a discussion with him about them and he said the maker just really wasn't that interested in making them to his specs and it made it hard for him to keep them in stock.

He had the bug to make planes more than the bug to work over customers, and it was nice while he was around making stuff.

[Winton Applegate]

Ooooooooo . . . purpleheart planes. I think I could do with out those. If the purple heart is like the stuff I have.
I mean part of the advantage of my purple heart bench is that it very faintly "oozes" a sap with a light tac to it.
the work doesn't slide around as bad as on a "normal" work bench. I like that.
But
if your purple heart is like my purple heart then keep the plane waxing stuff near by; lots of drag on the sole of the planes.

[Jim Matthews]

I do not know WHY some makers made such short plane irons.

You won't be the last to mention this, either.
It makes no sense to me, and I hardly know which way is up.

When the irons are that short, I'm just as likely to adjust my thumb with a hammer.

[Jim Matthews]

Building them was enough woodworking to satisfy their owners?

- OR - they never worked as well as a middlin #4 in the first place?

There's some alchemy to woodies that I can't puzzle through.
My Gordon planes worked the first, and every time.

The smoothers I have tried to rehabilitate are hopeless.

I built one of the Hock block plane kits and the wedge won't hold the iron still.

If all the shop time a hobbyist has gets wasted making a tool that never works well, it's a dream killer.

[Mike Holbrook]

I wrote follow ups to this thread at least twice but lost them to some horizontal scrolling feature that I have yet to figure out. I think I have it turned off now though and I have a different mouse too.

My experience building wood planes would tend to verify Jim's consternation over some of the detail work necessary to get them working properly. It seemed to me that the area supporting the iron and how it matches to the corresponding wedge could be very exacting. I actually did not find the work objectionable just exacting. It takes me a good while to make a wedge that holds an iron properly. I found I needed to carefully customize my wedges with careful rasp and sandpaper work to get the fit I wanted/needed.

Although I have found purple heart to be very hard for most tools to cut, I found Iwasaki rasps to work well although not very quickly. The combination of hardness and stability in this wood is what I believe Steve found attractive about it for plane bodies. Even my 26"x 1 3/4" jointer plane body has remained stable, suffering almost none of the warping or cracking that I find in many wood plane bodies. None of the wood I have used has shown any cracks. The small issue I have with the wood is it has a tendency to chip if roughly worked.

I have two planes Steve made for fellow Creeker Tom Vanzant. These planes are very different than the ones I made from Steve's kit parts. Both planes have tall, heavy Razee bodies, made from Cocobollo. They use a strange wooden insert in the mouths of the planes. The insert is sort of like a wedge on the wrong end of the opening for the blade & wedge. It appears that these inserts would need to be physically altered to change the size of the planes mouth. They do provide an easy way to replace the wood next. Steve also cut the corners off the plane blades. I will try and post pictures later.

[Winton Applegate]

Mike,
Are you using a Mac ?
The latest operating system has been driving me a bit nuts with a similar horizontal feature.
It would help if I read the destructions. I usually am a manual reading hound but have not for this update.
Mouse . . . do people still use those ?
anyway . . .
with my track pad (http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC380LL/A/magic-trackpad?fnode=8c286f4421831a3a73159bd8f547be4d4b3 5a1a38a60f7c0fb80e41b6acff35d89e65225d39a1f13df2cd 691ec84bd8d46e2411edd0a6b9fe31f60636e2f9f64c921725 8ae77367d9e8f64854047b6d403c32e2cc227a25bf77084043 21a0c365e5571a2ae2b6530b816daed7ae5be17) (Bob I love my track pad I waited on the edge of my seat for a couple of years trying to will them to make this puppy)
if I swipe side ways with three fingers it changes desk tops (I have four desk tops I work from right now; one for photos, one for work with text, one for music and one for surfing the internet) . . . and if I use a four finger swipe I stay in the same desk top but go to a previous "tab" / website.

On the iPad I get into all kinds of trouble loosing stuff but only in this forum so I have just learned to brows from there and post from the larger machine.

[Mike Holbrook]

Good guess Winton. We must be dealing with the same feature/bug. Yes, I use a mouse. You must not play games. I din't play games much but I have come to like all the programable buttons on gaming mice. I can adjust my mouse so my hand is in a very relaxed posture and does not rub the desk when I use the mouse. I have multiple DPI settings, vertical & horizontal scrolling, paging buttons...

We have a track pad on the iMac we use for our business. I find myself getting confused switching between the iphone, iPad and iMacs sometimes too.

[Winton Applegate]

You must not play games.
Not a one ever.
I must be wrong because so many love the games but for me it is hours and hours spent for no new skill or progress in my current ones.
Don't give me the "hand to eye" argument or I will give you T'ai Chi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_Chi)which actually does improve hand to eye coordination to quite an astonishing degree.
For me, one hand while sitting on my butt is not coordination.
How ever
I watched me some Red vs Blue episodes and enjoyed those guys immensely.
Ha, ha,

I got to say it . . . "I am happy to say I haven't washed any mouse balls in years".
I couldn't pass up saying that.
The one at work is due.
Fiddly fart around with the little roller wheelies in side.
Nah dude, nah. I have seen the last of that for the Winster.

But then what do I know ? I don't even power grind my plane blades unless some thing disastrous happens or I am making a new blade (rare . . . extremely rare).

[Tom Vanzant]

The early Steve Knight planes had/have an adjustable piece of Ipe mounted to the forward block opposite the iron. This piece established the mouth opening which could be changed with just a little attention with a file. When the plane sole needed flattening, the Ipe mouth piece was advanced slightly and was sanded level with the sole during flattening.

[Mike Holbrook]

Tom, thanks for the details on the mouths on those planes. I thought the mouth pieces might be IPE as I bought a stock of Steve's later mouths which are IPE. The IPE I have is darker and has a little different texture, so I was not sure it was the same type of wood, even though I read that IPE could vary. Sounds like my assessment of the design features of the wedge/mouth was not far off. The mouth design he was using when he closed up shop was different, a simple sliding block held in place with a screw in a slot.

Winston, could you explain that no gaming philosophy to my step son. He might benefit from understanding that there are things in life other than computer games. I myself seldom play computer games for all the reasons you mention. There are so many other things worth doing that actually impact real life. Still for some reason I like a gaming mouse. I think it is just a matter of lots of options.

[george wilson]

Jim,try putting a piece of NON CLAY BEARING paper,like brown paper,under the wedge of your plane. Paper holds like crazy in a milling machine vise. The jaws of the vises are very smooth,and do not hold sometimes as well as they might. Paper holds a lot better.

I can't guarantee that paper will solve your blade slipping problem,since the wedge of a plane has very little pressure compared to a milling vise. But,try it. You might find it works. Never let the paper get oily. If your plane is made of a tropical wood,the wood might have enough oil in it to lubricate the blade a little,letting it slip. I'd advise to glue the paper to the underside of the wedge if it works. But,oil from the wood may get through,and mess up the gripping power of the paper.

Anyhow,it won't take much effort to try using the paper. Reply how it works out. Others might have the same problem,especially on these modern,highly polished plane irons. I'll bet it didn't happen on hand forged ones,left black!! Never did for me.

[Winton Applegate]

Mike,
I just realized I may actually have some thing constructive to add to the lost post problem.
I know it is rare that I have constructive comments. Grab it, run and don't hesitate least you be sucked down into the vortex of my BS; that's my advice.
Well actually THIS is my advice : When you loose the post and wind up else where look in your tabs bar and there may be a tab there that you can click on and get right back to the reply window / screen, no harm done.

In the past I would go to my history to get back but this now seems to be eliminate as an option. This may be a security thing. (or the back arrow some may ask ? Nahhhhh that would be entirely too easy and straight forward).

As far as telling something to your step son . . . or telling any thing to about anyone I find I have a very low success rate. I think it boils down to a perfect storm of negatives :

The listening gene seems to have been damage in this last generation.
I don't wear a cape and so I am taken as much less credible than someone who is wearing a cape
Lack of experience on the part of the listener, they have never actually listened before so they are unclear where to begin and are so busy in their head doing . . . I don't know what . . . that they aren't aware listening is an option.
I don't have a big desk and a PhD in whatkidsneadrealistics, that's to satisfy his mother that I'm legit ( the kid won't care one fetid dingo's kidney).
And , the last nail in the coffin, what I have to offer is not illegal and in a plastic bag or vial.


those add up to . . .
. . . well I'm not sure what they add up to not being very good at math, especially when it comes to "The Unreal Numbers" . . . but, I nearly always find, after an attempt to share any little bagatelle of good will, that I discern a hint of something about the facial features of the beneficiary that reminds me of a pinball machine when it goes TILT !

So regrettably, in this case, I must demure, as I am at this time, emotionally unprepared to face rejection and humiliation yet again.

[Mike Holbrook]

I did not think to look in the tabs bar Winton, if it ever happens again I will do that, thanks.

Yes, this "younger" generation has an unprecedented array of new distractions and I fear they may distort their sense of reality and social conscience. I think it is even worse for my 17 year old daughter. OMG the drama! It is hard to decide whether to flip or fly and I find no manual or forum with solid advise.

[Winton Applegate]

It is hard to decide whether to
flip or fly
Are you a Jimmy Buffet fan ?
Ha, ha,
I am thinking of his song "God's Own Drunk". With lyrics like :
There was God's yeller moon and the stars twinkling' on and off in the heavens . . .
. . . That bear expected me to do one of two things . . . flip or fly but I didn't do either one . . .
it hung him up.
. . . that bear was sniffing all around my body trying to smell fear but he wasn't going to smell no fear because I was God's own drunk and a fearless man.
it hung him up.
It's a great song.


and I find no manual or forum with solid advise.

See now thats why they won't let me have kids. And why I, in fact, should not have kids.
I would take her about twenty miles out of town on a deserted dirt road and "let" her walk back home. If and when she made it back she would be much, much mellower (for lack of food if nothing else) and would be much more amenable and appreciative of the simpler things in life and where they come from, i.e. Dad. (and Mom).

If she didn't make it back . . . well . . . coyotes need to eat too.

[Mike Holbrook]

OMG Winton, missed this response for a few days. I have been a Jimmy fan for some time, from his first trip to Atlanta, before anyone had ever heard of him. I use to be able to recite the lyrics of the entire God's Own Drunk song, and often did. I had this buddy who would call me at work and just start reciting....

...He was a Kodiack looking fella about 19 feet tall. He came up over the hill expecting me to do one of two things flip or fly. But I was God's Own Drunk! and a fearless man. It hung him up...

or as near as I can remember without finding some way to get my old vinyl disc to make music again.

I had this big burly uncle who use to backpack regularly in the Smokies. He got run out of a camp site one night by a black bear who simply refused to stop trying to get in the tent with him. He got a copy of Jimmy's album with "God's Own Drunk" on it that christmas. I understand that someone else laid claim to that song and Jimmy doesn't do it anymore, too bad! Jimmy may have been a little too good at that song. One might have thought he identified with it a little too much.

So you must not be married Winton, else you would understand that women will shoot you or worse for far less tampering with adolescent egos than you suggest above.

[Mike Holbrook]

Back on topic. I just discovered that Lee Valley now offers a Veritas Wooden Plane Hardware Kit, under wooden planes. The kit contains a Norris-style blade adjustment system. There is the option to obtain the kit with a 1/8" thick by 1 5/8" wide, 25 degree, PM-V11 plane iron too.

There is a steel cup to contain the Norris adjuster, brass tapped insert pin and knob for the lever cap and a brass cross pin. A2 and O1 kits are available too.

[Winton Applegate]

Norris-style blade adjustment system
I am definitely a fan of that adjuster; if it is like what is in the many Varitas bevel ups anyway.

women will shoot you or worse for far less tampering with adolescent egos than you suggest above.
When Q was a kid she would get a slap across the mouth from her mother for anything less than right now, get with it, respectful behavior.
So she actually would find my solution rather progressive and lenient. Well all but the coyotes thing. She wouldn't like me being mean to the coyotes by subjecting them to a weireded out teenager.

If all else fails there is always Derek. He has a kid manual. I wonder which chapters our solutions come under.

PS: Ha, ha, at first I thought you were going to tell me women will not tolerate Jimmy Buffett records played in the same house as they are. That I would have to agree with.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

What about making yourself some taller/longer blades? 48" long pieces (that's the minimum length) of 2" wide, 3/16" thick 1084 steel costs about $50 including shipping, a bit more for 2.5" wide since you pay by the actual amount of steel. It makes fantastic blades and is truly quite simple to heat treat correctly with no fancy setup (as some saw me rant about recently). A few places sell it - do try 1084 over the alternatives because it is easier to HT and yet takes a super sharp, really rather durable edge - njsteelbaron.com is only place I've bought it (and I've only bought 2 bars - not a shill for them, just a happy customer).

You could make yourself eight 6" long blades for that. Or, like I did, make a plane blade and then start making other things you didn't think you could make, or could afford anytime soon. Plane blades are as easy as it gets since they are such simple shapes.

cut to size, grind edge, leaving a little less than a dime's worth of unground flat on the very edge, then heat treat and finish grinding and sharpen. Drill/tap for chip breaker prior to hardening, if desired.
To harden you can make a kiln/forge out of nested cans, as suggested in a few books, or make one by hollowing out a couple soft refractory bricks (by soft I mean you can carve them out using a dinner spoon). Heat comes from a propane or, better, mapp pro torch, just avoid the ones with plastic sparkers on them since they can melt. Search "two brick forge" for details. Quench in 130F canola. Temper in oven for a couple hours.

This way you could have a larger and longer blade for very little per blade. If you're like me, it's a real eye opener to realize it is within reach of mere mortals.

That said, I love the idea of adding threaded adjuster things coming from the side of the blade. I've seen that on some metal block plane, or something, but never occurred to me to try on a wooden. One I made is a little tricky to adjust so I don't use it as much as I would.

[Mike Holbrook]

Heat treating my own steel does sound like fun Fitzhugh. The only problem being that I am a little afraid of woodworking simply evolving into other hobbies instead of actually making things from wood. I am wondering if LV/Veritas will eventually offer a wider range of plane irons to work with their adjuster system? Come to think about it I wonder if that adjuster will work with all the BU plane irons they make for all their BU planes?

I like the idea of the threaded adjusters for holding plane irons in place too. The only thing holding me back is a little fear of not quite getting that smallish screw to hit exactly the correct spot, after passing through the plane body.