220 volt issues

[Kev Williams]

Some of you may know I 'accidentally' bought my Triumph laser in the Euro 220 volt version. This was because I mistakenly assumed that it would come set up for US 220. Learn something every day, and at my age, usually the hard way... ;) My blower, air pump and water cooler are all E-220v too.

So I bought a voltage transformer. A month or so ago the power switch suffered a meltdown, and I replaced it. This morning it half-fired, half didn't... Thought maybe my replacement switch was to blame, but found out there's an issue with connections going to the relays. As in, wiggle the wires and relays start clicking, but won't stay on.

Ok, I can get an HF blower, and a bucket of water and a $15 pump will cover the water issue for now. Compressed air is no problem...

But what about the laser? I keep reading from many of you say these Chinese lasers will *usually* run on 110 or 220 volts. I also read that there's *usually* either a selector switch, or the power supply is automatic...

Ok, now for my dilemma-- I can find no place on ANY of the laser's power guts ANY reference whatsoever to the voltage they're using, or require. The ONLY reference to volts is on the laser controller, which simply states on a yellow sticker "select the correct voltage", see the pic. I can also find no brand names on anything except the X-Y controllers, "Instar". The power supply has no name, only words on it are "chassis earth - HV stay clear of cabinet - remnant high voltage".

The connectors on the laser controller read from left to right:
N L ground symbol V2 G G V1 V1 - and a "V1 adj" can. Wires are connected to the first 5 only.

<edit in> - Wiring to power supply--

3 prong plug reads left to right: FG AC AC

6 prong plug left to right:

HT TL WP GND IN 5V

Wiring is shown in the pics-

If there's any way I can fix this to run on 110v or US 220v, I'd love to know what to do. Everything else I can buy or McGuiver up something for now :)

Thanks in advance for any help!

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[walter hofmann]

talk to a electrician if he can install a 220V receptacle, because in the US you have 220V for apliances , A/C etc. this is the same as EU 220V
for the power supply look at the backsite if you got a uni voltage there is a switch 110/220 there
greetings
walt

[Dan Hintz]

talk to a electrician if he can install a 220V receptacle, because in the US you have 220V for apliances , A/C etc. this is the same as EU 220V
for the power supply look at the backsite if you got a uni voltage there is a switch 110/220 there
greetings
walt

EU is 50Hz... if the magnetics in the power supply are spec'd for 60Hz, there will be some unnecessary shortening of component life due to heat.

[Kev Williams]

I'm aware that I can, and know how to, wire a receptacle to run 110v from each branch in my breaker box to each 220v plug receptacle leg (using the second 110v branch in place of the typical neutral) and be sure to ground everything good.

But- in the case of the say, the blower, which has an ungrounded plug identical to our 110v plugs, since both legs will receive power, is it necessary to ground the blower separately? Or is 'double insulated' implied?

And Dan, as far as I know, my transformer outputs it's 220 volts at 60hz, and everything has been working okay--

I'd rather just run the laser off 110v if possible, but I'm thinking that might not work with what I have...

[Mike Lassiter]

I'm with Dan I don't think just a transformer could alter frequency from 60 hertz input to 50 hertz output the Euro system uses. Possibility something solid state could but I would think your circuitry wouldn't like the different power frequency. I would expect issues due to not providing correct power to laser.

[Ernest Martin]

You probably don't need to ground the blower in that case. Some of our small household items only have two prongs. If you want to ground it just attach the ground wire onto some metal part of the blower. The best thing would be to have it wired for 220 volt, if your doing it yourself make sure your breaker, wire and receptacle are heavy enough. If you don't have to run the wire through walls and so, a decent electrician could wire that in an afternoon depending how far the wire has to go and if it is run inside the walls. Like Dan said the only difference in EU 220 is the 50Hz. There really is no practical way to transform our 60hz to 50z, plus I don't think that should be a problem.
If your in doubt get an electrician.

[Bill George]

The way I understand this, and I am an electrician, European 220 volts is one "hot" lead and a neutral. The 50/60 Hz will not make a difference except your motors will run a little faster on 60 Hz. US 220 voltage is 2 hot wires phase to phase equals 220 and the neutral is not used, unless part of the circuit "needs" the 110 volt line which would be hot one leg (phase) referenced to the neutral. But you don't have that on your present set up.
Two types of 220 volt outlets in Europe F here can be plugged in either way, not polarized as to which pin is neutral > http://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/f/
and E which has a socket mounted grounding pin
> http://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/e/

I am not willing to bet your power supply, but my guess would be the European supply would work just fine on our 220 volt or both wires hot. The motors do not need a white wire, only the 220 volts, and green wire which is FG or Frame Ground which does not carry current.

George who commented last time around, more or less said the same as I did above.

I know my power supply has a selector 110/220. To test the above, try either your water pump or air pump whatever is cheaper to replace. I bet it works just fine.

[Kev Williams]

I've been running the transformer, with assumed 60hz output, since November, and the only issue I've had, is with the transformer! The laser and accessories work fine. I just checked the wiring to the laser tube, all wires and connections look brand new, no evidence of hot-spots or arcing, etc. In fact, there's no evidence of overheat anywhere. All plugs and receptacles look like new. Everything works great except the transformer.

The transformer came with a type F plug and receptacle adapter for a 110v outlet.

I'd rather not spend $200 for another transformer. And as I noted above, I can't find anything resembling a voltage selector switch on my laser, so I'll assume I can't run the laser on 110v power. I mounted a breaker box right next to the laser in the garage, and the power outlet that fed the transformer is attached to the breaker box. It will take me 10 minutes to change the wires over to a 220 breaker, and the air pump is the least important to me as far as a test goes...

I'll let you know how it goes! :)

[Dan Hintz]

You probably don't need to ground the blower in that case. Some of our small household items only have two prongs. If you want to ground it just attach the ground wire onto some metal part of the blower. The best thing would be to have it wired for 220 volt, if your doing it yourself make sure your breaker, wire and receptacle are heavy enough. If you don't have to run the wire through walls and so, a decent electrician could wire that in an afternoon depending how far the wire has to go and if it is run inside the walls. Like Dan said the only difference in EU 220 is the 50Hz. There really is no practical way to transform our 60hz to 50z, plus I don't think that should be a problem.
If your in doubt get an electrician.

Items with no ground plugs (2-prong) are double insulated (e.g., plastic cases and such)... running an item like the blower without ground is a death trap waiting to happen. Motors wound for 50Hz will run faster on 60Hz, as mentioned, but you're going to see a shortened lifespan.

The power supply is a switcher, which means they can make the output at any frequency they desire, regardless of input frequency (VFDs do this on a daily basis). If that supply was designed for 50Hz input and 60Hz output (which is quite possible, as it makes the machinery beyond the supply universal in both EU and USA), applying a 60Hz input can saturate the magnetics... this leads to overheating, which leads to failed components. Tread at your own risk.

[Bill George]

Transformers work on a ratio input to output windings. They do nothing for the frequency and they don't need too. Motors and most other equipment is rated 50/60 cycles. It all gets changed to DC anyway so not an issue on our equipment. We routinely ran motors at higher than rated frequency with VFD's, without an issue. If frequency made a difference, running them on a transformer would not change that difference.

Just make sure you run the green grounding conductor to frame ground and make sure its connected to the panel grounding buss at your service panel. I frankly think the European voltage system is a hazard to use. When we had machines come in from overseas, we had to bring them all up the US National Electrical Code.

[Dan Hintz]

Transformers work on a ratio input to output windings. They do nothing for the frequency and they don't need too. Motors and most other equipment is rated 50/60 cycles. It all gets changed to DC anyway so not an issue on our equipment.
Just make sure you run the green grounding conductor to frame ground and make sure its connected to the panel grounding buss at your service panel. I frankly think the European voltage system is a hazard to use. When we had machines come in from overseas, we had to bring them all up the US National Electrical Code.

Transformers themselves don't modify frequency, but the switching electronics running them do... hence the term "switcher" or "switching" power supply. Motors are designed for a specific frequency... for example the 1745rpm motors used for sharpening stations. Use the incorrect frequency and you will run into problems.

[Kev Williams]

I'm back--

I rewired the plug, plugged in the air pump, gritted my teeth and turned on the breaker--

--the pump runs exactly as it did before! So I got brave and plugged in the blower- It spooled up and runs exactly as before. And likewise with the water cooler... so far, so good!

Haven't tried the laser yet, but I'm pretty sure all will be well...?

I'm trying to find out if my transformer actually DOES (or did) change the frequency...

[Bill George]

I'm back--

I rewired the plug, plugged in the air pump, gritted my teeth and turned on the breaker--

--the pump runs exactly as it did before! So I got brave and plugged in the blower- It spooled up and runs exactly as before. And likewise with the water cooler... so far, so good!

Haven't tried the laser yet, but I'm pretty sure all will be well...?

I'm trying to find out if my transformer actually DOES (or did) change the frequency...

Well in the 50 years plus or so as an electrician, starting with aircraft back (USAF) in in 1963 which used 400 Hz AC I can tell you transformers do not change frequency.

As side note, back then I asked an old pro in the shop what would happen if I plugged in a 400 Hz transformer into the 60 Hz mains. He kind of smiled and said, lets try it and see what happens. Poof, transformer was gone in a second. Yes it was on the same voltage.

Transformers on 60 vs 50 Hz> http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-US/egselectricalgroup/aboutus/faq/Pages/solahd_ww_06-22-2011.aspx

[Kev Williams]

Well, neither the website or the xformer itself states the output frequency...

So I got in closer to the laser controller to see what I could see- which is hard thru all those holes in the surround!

BUT--- I did notice on the board after looking hard:
"CAUTION- VOLTAGE CAN BE SELECTED FOR 110/120V OR 220/240V BY SWITCH ON THE BOARD--CHECK!"

However, I looked hard but I couldn't locate said switch. But, hiding from my first look (the panel door was in the way), on the far side of the controller is a sticker that says:
"AC INPUT 200/240 VOLTS 2.0A MAX 50/60hz"

SO, since it seems I have the volts issue figured out, and the laser controller says 60hz is okay, I'll assume it's safe to power up the laser and see what happens...

[Bill George]

Kev, I edited my post to add a Link that discusses 50/60 Hz transformer issues, which are very few.

[Kev Williams]

Test results: everything seems to be working as it should be. Only thing I've really noticed is the lack of dimming lights when turning something else on. I'm now connected to a nice, stiff power supply instead of a 3000w limit electric boat anchor. (transformers weigh a ton!)

Thanks everyone for the support! :)

[Martin James]

Kev use a phone camera to take pictures of the side of the power supply. that is where my 110/220 switch is.

The North American 220 is not like Euro/Asia. NA is two 110volt legs which are out of phase. Euro Asia is one leg @220. They do not mix without the switch or transformer.
I am using this one. it doesn't get hot, and unlike the "5000 watts" models, this one might actually be labeled correctly. $140
I bought it because it has a thick cord.
marty

[Glen Monaghan]

I bought it because it has a thick cord.


You should be aware that it is a known practice by some cut-rate overseas suppliers to put extra thick insulation on undersized wire to make potential buyers think it's heavier gauge wire. Sometimes there is no marking, leaving the buyer to assume the wire is correspondingly larger, sometimes it is misleadingly labeled "heavy duty" (if anything, the adjective refers to the insulation, not the wire), and in the worst cases it may be fraudulently labeled with a heavier gauge wire number.

[Bill George]

Kev use a phone camera to take pictures of the side of the power supply. that is where my 110/220 switch is.

The North American 220 is not like Euro/Asia. NA is two 110volt legs which are out of phase. Euro Asia is one leg @220. They do not mix without the switch or transformer.
I am using this one. it doesn't get hot, and unlike the "5000 watts" models, this one might actually be labeled correctly. $140
I bought it because it has a thick cord.
marty

If you go back and read my answer to Kev, the links show the two European methods
of portable cord connectors. Since they do not use polarized outlets meaning the neutral can be on either terminal or the same for the "hot" wire it makes no difference how the 220 volts gets to his machine., You do not need a transformer for 220 to 220 volts two wire single phase. Transformers do not have a polarized output anyway, one secondary leg is referenced to ground only if the other is grounded. 220 volts is 220 volts when you only are using the two wire system.

Yes I know about the ground or FG as its called here, or grounding conductor green or bare wire in the US. Its not needed to run the machine, but for safety and should never have current flow.

[Kev Williams]

All of the cords on my laser and accessories will fit into any 110v socket in my house. The air pump and blower have simple un-polarized 2-prong american-style plugs, the laser and water chiller use the exact same power cords as any US computer.

The outlet I mentioned before that fed the xformer is attached to my breaker box, it was connected to a 15amp 110v breaker via 10" of 12ga wire.

All I did was move the black load wire from the 110 breaker to leg-1 of a 20amp 220 breaker, then moved the white neutral wire to leg-2 of the 220 breaker. Ground didn't move, obviously...

Voila, everything works. Whether it's supposed to or not. ;)

[Bill George]

I would spray paint that outlet with Red paint and mark it 220 volts AC. If someone else like your wife plugs in the vacuum cleaner and its poof. Actually the plugs and outlets should be changed over to a 20 amp 220 volt plug setup.

[Kev Williams]

I would spray paint that outlet with Red paint and mark it 220 volts AC. If only I knew someone that could make me a label for that outlet...

yeah, bad joke... ;)

And I plan on changing the outlet. :)

[Dan Hintz]

And I plan on changing the outlet. :)

Thank you! I was biting my nails about that...

[Keith Colson]

If you want to install a 220 volt line just install a 220 socket too. You can use a standard 220v dryer socket and plug. To put 220v on to a 110v socket is just waiting for trouble not to mention illegal.

Do a Google image search for 220v dryer socket. I recall there were two types you could choose from.

Cheers
Keith

[Bill George]

If you want to install a 220 volt line just install a 220 socket too. You can use a standard 220v dryer socket and plug. To put 220v on to a 110v socket is just waiting for trouble not to mention illegal.

Do a Google image search for 220v dryer socket. I recall there were two types you could choose from.

Cheers
Keith
Actually he needs 3 20 amp sockets and plugs. A 30 amp dryer socket and plug is way overkill for this project, Kev seems to have a pretty good idea of what to do. A trip to the local Home Depot or Lowes will be in order.

[Kev Williams]

These will work nicely
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[Keith Colson]

Kev, perfect solution. I have not done electrical work in the US for 15 years, so forgot about that one.

[Bruce Andrews]

Well, neither the website or the xformer itself states the output frequency...

So I got in closer to the laser controller to see what I could see- which is hard thru all those holes in the surround!

BUT--- I did notice on the board after looking hard:
"CAUTION- VOLTAGE CAN BE SELECTED FOR 110/120V OR 220/240V BY SWITCH ON THE BOARD--CHECK!"

However, I looked hard but I couldn't locate said switch. But, hiding from my first look (the panel door was in the way), on the far side of the controller is a sticker that says:
"AC INPUT 200/240 VOLTS 2.0A MAX 50/60hz"

SO, since it seems I have the volts issue figured out, and the laser controller says 60hz is okay, I'll assume it's safe to power up the laser and see what happens...

Kev,

Thanks for posting your experiences with the voltage issues. Are things still working well? I have a nearly identical situation. I received a Redsail M900 with no transformer. Machine has label on back that says 220v; chiller says 208-230v 60 hz and fan says 220v 60 hz. Redsail says laser will work on 60 hz.

My question is, I’m installing NEMA 6-20 outlets and the plugs on the different components are all different. I am planning on changing the plugs and using the neutral as a 2nd hot, just like the receptacle. Do you see any concerns in doing this?

Thanks,

Bruce Andrews
Arkansas

[Kev Williams]

Kind of ironic- back when my xformer went south I gave to our electro-whiz-kid son to check out. Just yesterday he brought it back, said the relays are screwy. Not worth fixing though...

Meanwhile, 3-1/2 years later after just connecting to US of A 220, the only issue ever was the original blower quit working about a year later. Pretty sure it had nothing to do with line freq though... The machine, chiller and the vibro-air pump, no issues.