Whats causing this chatter?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hello guys,
I was planing the top of a simple pine stool tonight and no matter what I seemed to do, I got chatter during the first 2" of each pass across about half the width of the board. I was using my MF #9 (Stanley #4) with a very sharp Veritas blade, chipbreaker set as close to the edge as I could get it (maybe 1/64"). The frog was positioned for smoothing, even though I was taking a heavier shaving. The top is 8"x 24", 3/4" thick, clean with no knots.

I checked the grain - its pretty straight there and I was planing in the right direction. I thought perhaps I had an odd patch of grain and tried working that area from the other direction. I got tearout.

I resharpened. No change.

I tried bearing down harder at the start, both to seat the front of the plane and to perhaps hold it down. No change.

I reduced the thickness of the shavings as far as I could - down to smoothing range. No change.

I tried a #5, just to experiment. No change.

Finally, I changed to my trusty #2. No more chatter. That fixed it. But I dont really understand why. Can someone explain this to me? I think I know that the #2 would follow any small hollows that the MF9 would ride across. But the MF 9 was trying to take a shaving in this area - it was just skipping/chattering.

It would help me to learn the 'why' here instead of just putzing around like I did and stumbling into an answer.

Thanks for your insights!
Fred

[David Weaver]

Turn the plane askew a few degrees to start your cut and it should engage without any trouble.

[Frederick Skelly]

Turn the plane askew a few degrees to start your cut and it should engage without any trouble.


Thank you David. I forgot to mention that I tried that too. It worked with the #2, but not the MF9. Maybe I had it skewed too much? I was probably skewed 30 degrees. (That skew angle was one of the few things I didnt try to vary.)

Fred

[David Weaver]

There may be some play in the tote. Millers falls planes have an issue where the handles shrink and their rods don't have much more room to tighten.

Well, actually that's more of a problem with the larger handles that have a screw at the front of the foot. I don't know if it's an issue on the 4 sized planes where you otherwise would think the handle was tight. Check it though.

I don't know what else would cause a chatter at first. I'd back the frog off a little bit, it doesn't need to be super tight at the mouth in the front, and then make sure every screw on the whole plane is tight and the iron is bedded flat against the frog.

If that doesn't work, I'd use the stanley.

[Frederick Skelly]

All right. Ill try those tips tommorrow night. Thanks again David!
Fred

[Kees Heiden]

On all my Stanleys I have the frog set equal to the mouth portion of the sole. In other words, the bedding of the plane gives support all the way down onto the sole of the plane. So the mouth is usually rather wide.

Having a thicker Ray Iles blade in my #4 also helps to avoid this problem. But I don't want to send you directy to the shop to spend money.

[Winton Applegate]

:cool: I think David about covered it. Especially the part about making sure the blade is flat against the frog and the screws are tight.:cool:

Now for the more obnoxious side of me. I got to let off a little steam :
(may actually help though and FOR ME some of these matter)

:eek: 1/64th breaker setting. Paaaaahhhhhlllllleeeeezzzzz. That's like a mile. You need to be setting this thing with a micromillomeezontinybitO'nuthin. Send it off to Cal Tech or MIT and have them set it while looking through their scanning electron microscope. (it's the ONLY way).

;) When I get this chatter it means my blade is dull. Yah, yah . . . I know what you said. Are we talking jig sharpened or thumb sticking up at arms length sharpened ? ? ?
:mad:
Stropped ? Strop bad. Fine stone and jig good.

Free hand and stropped, for everyone else but David, (I think) means a roundy bevel facet and skating along on the microscopic roundy rather than clearance behind a sharp edge.

:o :confused: You made sure you weren't planing against the grain ? Why ? Now you tell me I shouldn't do this . . . and after I planed that whole purple heart work bench and bubinga dining table much or most of it against the grain some where along the length of each plank. Huh. Must be those sharpening jigs and bevel up planes. Oh well . . . now I know. :p

[David Weaver]

Stropped ? Strop bad.


Oh winton, you dirty bird! :)


Free hand and stropped, for everyone else but David, (I think) means a roundy bevel facet and skating along on the microscopic roundy rather than clearance behind a sharp edge.

Well, there are some people who do that on purpose - whatever still gives clearance but gives the edge enough strength I guess. I try not to round anything, you're right. Inevitably a little happens, but I try not to let it happen any more than the minimal amount possible because careless rounding literally starts the iron with part of the wear profile already there.

I know warren has mentioned that he uses a flat bevel. Warren is a pro, though, and I am a lazy amateur. If the bevel on my irons gets too large and it's not easy to raise a wire edge, then I grind some more.


and after I planed that whole purple heart work bench and bubinga dining table

That's left a permanent mental scar, eh?

[george wilson]

Stropping,like everything else,takes judgement and skill to not round off the edge too much. No,we do not want the plane skating along on a rounded area just BEHIND the cutting edge. Stropping on a piece of mdf charged with LV green buffing compound helps reduce rounding. But,the MOST reduction MUST come from your own hand reducing the motion that causes rounding. I get a laugh every time I see a stupid ACTOR sharpening his knife in a movie. He holds it nearly VERTICAL on the strop and SLOWLY strops it. Or,SLOWLY draws a stone the length of his sword blade. Yeah,right!! That's really going to give him a good edge-in 200 years!!:)

If you cannot control your stropping well enough,do not strop. I know a quite skilled craftsmen who does not strop. But,he sharpens his carving tools at such a high angle,the chisels need to be held close to vertical to make them cut!!! Yet,he does most excellent work in spite of it. This same craftsman made a wooden plane with a 3/4" open mouth IN FRONT of the blade. He saw no reason for a tight mouth!!! Yet,it worked for him!!!

This guy is a self trained,self educated person. You can't teach him anything. What does all this mean? PERSONAL SKILL trumps all else. I do many things the hard way myself.

[Pat Barry]

:cool:
:eek: 1/64th breaker setting. Paaaaahhhhhlllllleeeeezzzzz. That's like a mile. You need to be setting this thing with a micromillomeezontinybitO'nuthin. Send it off to Cal Tech or MIT and have them set it while looking through their scanning electron microscope. (it's the ONLY way). :p

I expected Dave to have a hernia or possibly a stroke when he read this!

[David Weaver]

I never actually measured a cap iron setting on anything, so I always assume that if someone has a breaker close enough to straighten a thick shaving, they probably have it closer than they think.

I just hope the rumor that its "really hard" to set a cap iron close enough for it to be effective goes away. I think it's gone away to some extent.

[Kees Heiden]

Yes, Winton is the last one who thinks that it is difficult.

[Patrick McCarthy]

" I do many things the hard way myself.[/QUOTE]

George, I thought I was the only one; suddenly I feel like I am in very good company!

[george wilson]

I'm self taught too,in many aspects. And,I DO make a lot of things the hard way,since at the time I had no one to show me an easier way.

[Jim Matthews]

Did you apply some oil to the sole of the plane?

Is the new blade properly engaged at the frog?
The Veritas blades are beefy, but if you've forced it into a curve
along the length, it may be trying to bend as you plane.

I have a MF 9 that cuts fine, with the stock blade.

[Winton Applegate]

If you cannot control your stropping well enough,do not strop
Oh you . . . lay down there and I will show you how I control my strop.

Opps wrong chatroom. I gotta' watch it.

(Sorry couldn't help my self)
You know better than to give me material to work with like that.:p

[Winton Applegate]

Where's Fredrick ?
What have you determined ?
Is it truly easy to set your breaker thingy closer than 1/64th ?

Should I take your class ? How much does the class cost ?
And what about Naomi ?

Tune in next time when all these questions and more will be answered.
ON
As The Chip Breaker Screw Tur . . .
Crap !
dropped it in the shavings again.
Anyway
Tune in folks.

[Jim Koepke]

Hello guys,
I was planing the top of a simple pine stool tonight and no matter what I seemed to do, I got chatter during the first 2" of each pass across about half the width of the board. I was using my MF #9 (Stanley #4) with a very sharp Veritas blade, chipbreaker set as close to the edge as I could get it (maybe 1/64"). The frog was positioned for smoothing, even though I was taking a heavier shaving. The top is 8"x 24", 3/4" thick, clean with no knots.

I checked the grain - its pretty straight there and I was planing in the right direction. I thought perhaps I had an odd patch of grain and tried working that area from the other direction. I got tearout.

I resharpened. No change.

I tried bearing down harder at the start, both to seat the front of the plane and to perhaps hold it down. No change.

I reduced the thickness of the shavings as far as I could - down to smoothing range. No change.

I tried a #5, just to experiment. No change.

Finally, I changed to my trusty #2. No more chatter. That fixed it. But I dont really understand why. Can someone explain this to me? I think I know that the #2 would follow any small hollows that the MF9 would ride across. But the MF 9 was trying to take a shaving in this area - it was just skipping/chattering.

It would help me to learn the 'why' here instead of just putzing around like I did and stumbling into an answer.

Thanks for your insights!
Fred

My response to this is somewhat hesitant. There are different kinds of chatter and different causes.

Chatter can be a harmonic resonance. Sometimes, mostly with block planes on end grain, it can be a loud piercing squeal. This brings on the question of is this a visible chatter on the work piece or is it merely audible?

There are different kinds of chatter and different causes.

One type when planing will make a 'zip' sound and the shaving will appear to have lines across it. There is probably a better way to describe this but that is what comes to me. Sometimes there is the noise but nothing appears on the workpiece. it may just be noise created when the shaving is bending against the chip breaker. Most often for me this can be eliminated by taking a lighter cut.

Another is a more bouncy affair when the blade doesn't actually want to cut, then digs in, then breaks loose only to dig in again and again over a short distance..

There is also one that seems to be a combination of the two. Surely there are many others.

Let's find our starting point.

What is your blade sharpening angle? It may be a good idea in this case to actually check the angle instead of going from memory. Are there micro bevels or back bevels?

Can you see a difference between the MF9 and the #2 blade's geometry?

My feeling on this is if there is a problem get back to the basics, flat single bevel and a flat back without a back bevel.

Hopefully the chip breaker is well fitting. If you find a lot of splinters jammed between the breaker and the blade you have some chip breaker tuning to do.

When you hold you plane up to the light, is there any light visible between the blade and the frog?

This could caused by a blade being bowed by a too aggressive chip breaker.

There are a few other things to check.

The lever cap screw should be tight enough to hold your adjustments even if you back the depth adjuster off a bit. If it is loose it may be a cause of chatter.

It might be helpful to set the frog to open the mouth fully. While doing this loosen the frog screws enough to ensure the frog seats against the sole in a solid manner.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys!

Jim: I did forget to provide some basic information, didnt I? The chatter Im seeing is the kind you describe as "bouncy". Bothe the MF9 and the #2 have cambered, blades with 25* primary bevels and an additional 5* secondary bevel. For the kind of woods I typically work these have been good angles that make nice shavings. I didnt get into the shop last night so I havent had a chance to check that screws are tight, etc. But I just realized there is one difference in blade geometry -the secondary bevel on the MF9 is MUCH wider than the one on the #2. That makes me suspect that the small number of honing strokes Im using are NOT sufficiently working that edge. Maybe Im just not getting past the wear. Im going to take that blade back to 25* and create a new secondary bevel. Thank you Jim! Darn newbie mistake.

(I did try stropping a couple times and seemed to round my edge. Its on my list to learn more about one day.)

Anyway, Ill check all the other things you guys suggested when I get back out there. This may be a combination of small things. Thank you. As alwYs, I appreciate your help and advice!

Fred
PS: Win - As always, I enjoyed your posts Sir. Thanks for the laughs. You are too funny.

[Derek Cohen]

I was planing the top of a simple pine stool tonight and no matter what I seemed to do, I got chatter during the first 2" of each pass across about half the width of the board. I was using my MF #9 (Stanley #4) with a very sharp Veritas blade, chipbreaker set as close to the edge as I could get it (maybe 1/64"). The frog was positioned for smoothing, even though I was taking a heavier shaving. The top is 8"x 24", 3/4" thick, clean with no knots.

Check out three items:

1. Have you tightened the parts enough - lever cap and/or frog screws?

2. The chip breaker may be too close to the edge. Try it a little further back.

3. My favourite .. is the sole flat? A little hollow at the mouth will cause the blade to cut too deeply with less support at the start of a board, which is what you describe.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

(I did try stropping a couple times and seemed to round my edge. Its on my list to learn more about one day.)

Stropping is an art in itself. One source says no more than 5 strokes on either side. Another source suggests 30 strokes each side.

For me the fewer strokes seems to work.

The documentation that came with my Veritas Power Sharpening system mentions that 25º or less on a plane blade bevel would be more likely to chatter and a blade angle greater then about 35º would tend to skip. Just another thing to consider.

Also as Derek mentions, the setting of the chip breaker may be part of the problem.

Trouble shooting a problem without seeing the problem is always a bunch of shots in the dark.

Sometimes with all the little fiddly bits it is a wonder we can ever make these old hand planes work.

jtk

[Chris Fournier]

Before you go tearing your plane apart looking for shrinking totes, chip iron placement to the .001", or rear tote angle take a close look at your blade. I would bet you a weeks pay that the cutting edge is not the perfect intersection of two planes - it is dubbed, rounded over what have you. As always start with the obvious and simple solution to your problem not some historical anecdote or complicated secret solution known to ancient fettlers.

What do I mean by a close look? I use a loupe and a carefully focused light source.

I have experienced the same problem with a freshly sharpened blade, man was it frustrating. It couldn't be my sharpening could it? Well, yes it could be and yes it was. One less than perfect final drag of your iron on a stone can cause exactly the symptoms that you are experiencing. Cleaning up a tired edge quickly and "enough" because you're rushing can leave a poor edge in places that causes this problem as well.

Every single time that I have a plane that "hops" or chatters at the start of the cut I look at two variables and move from the simplest to the next simplest - depth of cut, then cutting edge. I have NEVER come back from re-sharpening a plane that behaves as you describe and had to imagine complex harmonic frequency generating solutions. The caveat to this is that I maintain my planes and they are tight and tuned.

Please look at your cutting edge/re-sharpen and report back on your solution. I would most like to hear that I am right however hearing a solution other than this would certainly be of use to all of us.

[Winton Applegate]

One type when planing will make a 'zip' sound

Yah that is one O’ the reasons I gave up on jack planing with bevel down. Especially with cheep bevel down Stanley’s etc.

No edge support. That blade past the throat . . there is so much of it it goes up and down like a diving board (compared with my LN bevel up jack) (which has never said “Zip” in it’s life) (he just says SSSSLLLLLIIIIICE) (very satisfying).

People who think the breaker “supports the blade” from doing this are delusional, if anything it helps bend the blade down into the wood. It might prevent it from flapping up ASSS far but is bending it down.


bouncy affair. . . digs in, then breaks loose only to dig in again and again over a short distance..
Ha, ha

Yah that’s the type of thing I am talking about (not wanting or having any more of).
I just don’t see the attraction to planes that have such questionable inherent design flaws that allows that in a regular diet.

I suppose there are those who like a challenge to over come. I like to lock and load and plane with ease.

Or maybe I just like to crow about BU and sit on the couch. It is hard to tell for sure. Even I don’t know the answer to that one. :rolleyes:

[Winton Applegate]

I would bet you a weeks pay that the cutting edge is not the perfect intersection of two planes - it is dubbed, rounded over what have you.

You said it !

I like Derek's suggestion about the mouth area of the sole not flat on the wood also. That sure could do it.


What do I mean by a close look? I use a loupe and a carefully focused light source.

Lets take this sharpening and magnifying to the top . . .
Use a jeweler's visor so you can have your hands to work with.
Forget the light to glint on the blade and . . .

Sharpen that sucker (no strop) with a jig and stones to 8000 lightly honing the last passes one very short stroke per side back and forth until you remove the wire edge (or drop from fatigue trying)

Then . . .
using the mag visor find a nice curved hair on your arm kind of away from other hairs and see if you can take a curl / shaving off that hair. If you can then flip the blade over and see if you can take another curl.

If yes then your blade is SHARP.
If no eat dinner, go to sleep, get up, meditate while facing Main USA (The Lie-Nielsen Toolworks which is the mecca for all that is good and right with the world) . . .
and give 'er another try on the stones.

"When you can shave curl off arm hair, then Grass Hopper, it will be time for you to leave monastery. Until then, take out garbage, reset rat traps, go to liquor store . . . pick up my order. Dammed kids anyway."

[Winton Applegate]

PS : Ok lets be practical. Obviously you don't need SHARP all the time when sharp will do.
But my point is you will know what is possible and how it feels. Then start backing off on the sharpening for good enough is good enough.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I get this type of bouncy chatter sometimes, and it usually is at the start of the board. When this is happening I can still take a decent shaving through the rest of the board, the problem is just at the start. It seems to happen after the blade has been used for a while- very seldom with a freshly sharpened blade. If I want to keep working for a bit and not sharpen right away, I can usually mitigate the issue by waxing the sole, skewing the plane, and using more momentum at the start of the plane stroke. All of this points to blade dullness being the ultimate culprit.

So I would work on sharpness and try again. If this issue pops up with very sharp blades, then I would look into sole flatness next, as concavities can make planes do weird things. And after that, blade-to-frog and frog-to-sole bedding.

[bridger berdel]

wasn't one of the things that Kato and Kawai measured up and down forces on a blade in the cut? with the blade geometry within it's envelope, and the blade sharp, cutting pulled the blade down tight to the frog. as the wear bevel developed, that force went neutral, then up. once the blade is trying to rise up out of the cut, it is relying on the lever cap to hold it down. if the lever cap/ frog to blade geometry is less than perfect this sounds like exactly the kind of situation where chatter could develop. it could be that the OP's #2 played better on this particular piece of wood had as much to do with having a smaller area of frog/blade/cap as anything. just less area for geometry errors to come into play, lower forces on the blade, maybe that blade happened to be slightly sharper or had more clearance angle than the others.

this kind of troubleshooting can be like shooting fish in a barrel in the dark. pretty easy to kill the fish, if you can manage to hit the barrel.

[Jim Koepke]

with the blade geometry within it's envelope, and the blade sharp, cutting pulled the blade down tight to the frog. as the wear bevel developed, that force went neutral, then up.


This is one of the possible/likely culprits. Once in the cut a sharp blade tends to stay in the cut without a lot of downward force from the user.

As others have mentioned it can also be the plane's sole. One block plane proved this to me. It was concave from heel to toe. It would flex enough when pressing down at the start of a cut but would stop toward the end of the cut as downward pressure was released. The story on that is here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?123401-Fettle-to-the-Metal-With-LA-Blocks

With larger planes I have experienced what a machine user would call snipe. It seems this is more user error than a plane problem.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Found several problems by working one at a time and then testing.
1) Biggest was that blade was not sharp. I hadnt gotten past the wear. I went back to coarse and worked upward to 6000. Much improved.
2) One frog screw was tight but needed about 1/4 more turn. Carefully did so. Then checked knob and tote. Both slightly loose. Tested again. Seemed better.
3) I reduced my skew angle from about 30* to about 10*. I was still getting chatter in one particular spot. I changed the DIRECTION of skew from about 10* to the right, to about 10* to the left. That nailed it. While the grain looked pretty straight there, it mustve had enough curve/curl/change that this improved my alignment. I dont totally get that, but this solved it immediately (with a sharp blade)
4) I found a small bur on the chipbreaker and fixed that. I also increased the distance of the chipbreaker from the edge to about 1/32".
5) I checked the sole as suggested, using an LV straight edge. It was very flat in all directions. But Id spent a lot of time working this plane with abrasive on granite a couple months back after reading several posts here. And youre right - after I finally got that truly flat, this plane takes whisper thin shavings - WHEN I GET IT SHARP :(

So the biggest lesson was "make sure its sharp", followed by "try changing the direction of skew" followed by "maintain your planes better - check all those screws".

Thanks everyone. These were more valuable lessons for me.

Fred

[Jim Koepke]

3) I reduced my skew angle from about 30* to about 10*. I was still getting chatter in one particular spot. I changed the DIRECTION of skew from about 10* to the right, to about 10* to the left. That nailed it. While the grain looked pretty straight there, it mustve had enough curve/curl/change that thiimproved my alignment. I dont totally get that, but this solved it immediately (with a sharp blade)

I have had boards like that. The grain seems to undulate between raising and falling in a particular spot.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

PS: you never said if you are jig sharpening or free handing. Come on . . . you can tell us . . . don’t be shy . . .
The guys make fun of me all the time and call me insane and worse . . .
do I care ?
(it hurts but I soldier on none the less)
:p:D

No really it will only be some, the other camp will be carrying you around on their shoulders and calling you their next leader. In their minds anyway.
Right ?

so come onnnnnnn tell us . . .

I”ll have you know I gave up my fourth episode of MacGyver tonight to post this.
Ha, ha
You see Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer has been at some evening art classes and gallery doings so when she does that I get to watch my MacGyver episodes when I get home from work. I have all the seasons on DVD. It’s a lot of episodes.
Tooooo violent for Q so she prefers I don’t watch when she is around. I understand that. No prob.
annnd I like to watch them while the sun is still up. Just one of my weirdnesses. I really hunker down and get into other projects after the sun goes down. I’m a night owl . . . annnnnyway . . .
I was about to watch my fourth episode when I took a little break, you understand, and looked in at this thread to see how it’s going . . .
and the rest, as they say, is history . . . or soon to be if I can get past this intro . . .

I never say this when I am just talking but I gotta use it here . . .

"Look ". . .
forget the skew. That effectively lowers your cutting angle. My intuition tells me what is going on could be that there is a gap between the plank / work and your bench. When you changed the way you pressed down (when you skewed the other way) then you effectively pinned the board and closed up the gap (or some such) and the gap was allowing your board to flex or teeter under your plane contributing to the chatter.

Ha, ha, ha, ha
You backed off the chip breaker and the cut was better. That’s priceless.
As I always say the best gap between the chip breaker and the edge, at least in my shop is about twenty FEET. That is where my shop door is. Wedge the chip breaker under the door to help hold it open. That's my strategy.

NOW
In the photo are anti flexy tools. The rectangular flat strips on the right are basically thickish writing paper cut offs that I am always producing as scrap (I won’t go in to why). I grab a hank of these and stuff them into gaps.
the wood things standing on edge so you can see the thickness are 1/4 inch plywood scrap (center) and two door hanging shim / wedges. Lastly the white trashy looking cut out thing is just plastic display card that comes around various products. I save them for shim / padding for various tasks.

When I plane I plane on a very flat bench. Where ever the plank teeters and has gaps I place various combinations of this junk under it in the gaps so there is NO flexing and no teetering. That takes care of some of the chatter but more importantly allows me to make the planed surfaces flat rather than have them go from convex to concave and back again with each plane stroke.

Could this be happening with you ? Is your bench flat ? If you plane on a bench that is out of flat and then move the work to another area and plane again the work COULD . . . PERHAPS . . . flex and cause chatter just when you got it all adapted to the previous bench surface anomalies.

Varitas straight edge ? ? ? ?
I have two aluminum ones for checking for flat (not rulers). Mine are not flat / straight. Be ware.

And over all with one of my bevel ups I could plane straight on, skew to the right, skew to the left . . . it would make no difference. Now if I were cutting across the grain say on a raised panel then a skewed BLADE would be a good idea but all this holding our tung just right by skewing one way or t'a other is just . . . how do I put this gently ? More bevel downness.

[Jim Matthews]

I have had boards like that. The grain seems to undulate between raising and falling in a particular spot.

jtk

Boards with interesting figures and grain patterns are intriguing because of grain that isn't straight.
The real advantage of having tools that move over the wood as opposed to passing boards over a stationary tool
is that you can follow the grain pattern and reveal these figures as a smooth surface.

I think that veneering techniques improved as people migrated to power tools.
Cutting this sort of thing on a jointer or lunchbox planer is difficult.

[Chris Fournier]

Thanks guys!

Jim: I did forget to provide some basic information, didnt I? The chatter Im seeing is the kind you describe as "bouncy". Bothe the MF9 and the #2 have cambered, blades with 25* primary bevels and an additional 5* secondary bevel. For the kind of woods I typically work these have been good angles that make nice shavings. I didnt get into the shop last night so I havent had a chance to check that screws are tight, etc. But I just realized there is one difference in blade geometry -the secondary bevel on the MF9 is MUCH wider than the one on the #2. That makes me suspect that the small number of honing strokes Im using are NOT sufficiently working that edge. Maybe Im just not getting past the wear. Im going to take that blade back to 25* and create a new secondary bevel. Thank you Jim! Darn newbie mistake.

(I did try stropping a couple times and seemed to round my edge. Its on my list to learn more about one day.)

Anyway, Ill check all the other things you guys suggested when I get back out there. This may be a combination of small things. Thank you. As alwYs, I appreciate your help and advice!

Fred
PS: Win - As always, I enjoyed your posts Sir. Thanks for the laughs. You are too funny.

So the solution was straight forward and the KISS principle applied. Occam's razor, a tool that you can take to any woodworking situation in your shop. Congratulations Frederick.