Scratches on End Grain

[Steve Voigt]

Today I went back to trying to sort out a skew mitre plane that I was working on. The original blade wouldn't hold an edge, and I was getting ugly scratches on end grain. I tried everything, and finally gave up and tried another blade. Still the same problem! I set it aside for a month, but went back to it today. Maybe someone can help me diagnose the problem.
Here is what I get on pine end grain:

292883

For comparison, here is my no.4 with a Hock blade.--some faint scratches but nothing I can't live with.

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And here is the smoother I just made--no scratches.

292886

I am sharpening at just under 30°, which is as high as I can go (bed is about 39°). After a number of passes, the iron has lots of very small chips that I can see under a 10x lens. I tried to take a pic but the iphone camera can't focus enough.

My main thought is that the iron is too hard, so I tempered it to this color:

292885

Not sure if the photo is that accurate but I would describe it as gold. Anyway, tempering didn't really seem to help. My first guess is that it is still too hard, but at this point I'm doubting myself and don't know what to think. I'd hate to take this one too far and ruin it, so I decided to ask for advice first.
Some other possibilities:
- it's too soft. What would you describe as the characteristics of too soft vs. too hard?
- There are clearance angle problems. Doesn't seem like that would produce scratches, but I don't know.

One other thing: they are both Butcher irons, but from different eras, and one was slotted and the other not. Don't see how that would matter, but wanted to mention it.

Anyway, sorry for the marathon post. If anyone has any great ideas, I'm all ears! Thanks!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

David or someone with more experience than me will have better input, but that's definitely the sort of thing I've seen with chippy irons. (Actually, it looks pretty much like what I got with my Lie Nielsen A2 in my BU jack until I raised the bevel angle)

With too soft irons, on end grain, instead of that failure mode, I just get an iron that stops cutting way to soon, either needing to be advanced for a heavy cut with a lot of muscle to do any work (although this doesn't work on end grain) or worst case, a folded edge that can easily be felt.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Just another thought - this is clean wood, right? I've had similar problems when I've tried to shoot the end grain of wood from the lumber yard right from the store and not on an end I've cut - doesn't take much grit to wreak havoc on your blade.

[Stanley Covington]

You already know the answer: the steel sucks.

I don't know how much you know about steel, so pardon me if I state the obvious, but there are so many that don't have a proper understanding, so perhaps a bit of an explanation will be useful.

Looking at plain high-carbon steel first. Carbon and iron do not normally like each other and do not readily combine chemically. When steel is heated, the clumps of carbon in the mass of iron and carbon (and other impurities) dissolve and spread out. When the steel is suddenly cooled by quenching it in water or oil (traditional method), the carbon doesn't have time to clump back together again, but instead gets locked in with the iron forming a crystalline structure called "martensite." The little clumps of martensite crystals are in turn sometimes called "carbides" by some.

Interestingly, these crystals take up more volume than the same amount of un-crystallized iron and carbon does, which is why the stresses induced by quenching often cause warping and even cracking. An example of this is the curve in Japanese swords which is formed when the blade is differentially cooled when quenched.

But there are lots of critical factors to be considered. The amount of iron and carbon needs to be balanced or the steel will be too soft or too brittle. Cast iron, for instance, has too much carbon, and so while it is often hard, it is very brittle. Too little carbon, and we have "mild steel," which is very tough and predictable under stress and so perfect for many purposes, but will not hold a cutting edge for long.

But even if we have the right balance of carbon and iron, and the mixture is heated and quenched (and then tempered by reheating) at the right temperatures and the right timing, the hard martensite crystals often form isolated islands within the iron mass with rivers and oceans of softer iron surrounding them. In a cutting edge, many of these hard crystalline clumps will of course be front and center cutting wood for you, but the softer iron surrounding them will be quickly eroded, and then even the hard martensite crystals, losing support, will be torn off the cutting edge. Depending on the hardness of the material being cut, the blade's edge quickly becomes ragged, leaving striations on the wood's surface.

The best steel has always been made by the process of hammer forging (not to be confused with drop hammer forging where metal is slammed into a mold by a huge mechanical hammer weighing tons). Material of the right size and thickness is heated to the right temperature, and then beat the right number of times, at the right locations, with the right force with a hammer, either hand-held or mechanical. The material gradually cools while this hammering is going on, of course. It is then reheated and hammered again, for a total of at least two "heats." This hammer forging process breaks down the islands of crystals into smaller ones, and distributes them more evenly throughout the material. When the material is quenched the last time, the martensite crystals remain locked in place. This process makes all the difference in a cutting tool's performance, bit it is difficult and takes years of experience to learn to do properly and consistently. This is why the term "hand forged" is important.

A sentence on tempering. Tempering involves reheating the steel to a lower temperature for a short period of time to relieves stresses and to cause some of the martensite to degrade a bit, making the steel softer, but much tougher (less brittle). All this is much easier to say than do, and so the skilled blacksmith has been the most valued of mankind's craftsmen since the time someone tried to block a stroke from a steel sword with a copper or bronze sword. The blacksmith makes everybody else's tools.

In modern time, we have figured out how to add other chemicals to the mixture to make the process of heat treating steel easier and more predictable. Chrome, nickle, vanadium, molybdenum, tungsten, lead, boron, calcium, copper, manganese, and many other chemicals are sometimes added to improve toughness, abrasion-resistance, corrosion resistance, machinability, and to encourage the crystalline structure to remain fine and evenly distributed. These additives can also decrease warpage and make it possible to obtain a useful steel even if the heat treating and tempering temperatures are a bit off the ideal. But for working wood with tools that are to be sharpened by hand, nothing beats plain high-carbon steel that has been worked with great skill.

In reality, it's difficult to find new tools made this way anymore since these very effective but traditional methods do not lend themselves to mass-production by Chinese peasants. Needless to say, they are not sold at Walymart or Home Despot. This at least partly explains why so many discerning woodworkers seek out vintage tools.

So, back to the original problem. The answer is the steel on your particular blade sucks. Re-heat treating will not solve it, because even of you get the temperatures and timing right, everytime the steel is heated, carbon escapes. That is the black skin and scale that appears on the blade's surface. The only fix is to get a better blade.

[John Crawford]

Stanley: Thanks for taking the time to write this up; I learned something!

[Steve Voigt]

Stan,
I appreciate the thorough post, but as a former machinist I'm pretty familiar with the structure of steel. That knowledge isn't helping me a lot with this specific problem; however, I'm sure others will find your information useful.
Regarding the steel "sucking," I'm not sure I understand your point. You say that hand-forged, high-carbon steel is the best. As I mentioned, this is a Butcher iron, probably mid to late 19th C. Like all irons of that era, it is simple water-hardening steel, very similar to W1 or 1095, and not much different from your Japanese White. Like all tapered, laminated Western irons, it was forged; probably with a trip hammer rather than by hand, but pretty close (and I've seen plenty of videos of Japanese smiths using trip hammers). Butcher was also the dominant maker of the time, and well-respected. So, to clarify: are you saying that all irons of this type "suck," or are you suggesting that this particular iron is defective? I've definitely considered the possibility that it's the latter, but I'd like to keep trying before I throw in the towel and get another iron. If you're saying it's the former, we'll just have to agree to disagree. The third pic I posted is also a vintage forged, laminated iron, though probably a little later, and it seems to be doing ok.

[Steve Voigt]

… that's definitely the sort of thing I've seen with chippy irons. (Actually, it looks pretty much like what I got with my Lie Nielsen A2 in my BU jack until I raised the bevel angle)

With too soft irons, on end grain, instead of that failure mode, I just get an iron that stops cutting way to soon, either needing to be advanced for a heavy cut with a lot of muscle to do any work (although this doesn't work on end grain) or worst case, a folded edge that can easily be felt.
Josh, thanks, this is very helpful. I guess I'm lucky in the sense that almost all the irons I've used have been pretty good, so I don't have a great sense of how quantifiable defects actually play out at the bench.
On your other post--yes, the wood is clean; I repeated this test with the 3 planes several times, and tried a board of soft maple too. The results have been very consistent.

[Stanley Covington]

Steve:

I am not condemning Butcher irons, much less all such "types." But obviously the one in question is not up to the job. The Hock blade clearly has it beat hands down.

I am not condemning any old irons. I have several old irons made in England in the 1800's I cut down and used for planes. Some suck and behaved just as you described yours does. At least two of them cut like the very devil. Excellent irons.

There are Japanese blades that suck too. Mostly for the reasons I described. Quality control is difficult in any situation. Modern materials and methods (at least outside of China) produce mediocre performance, but cheaply and very consistently.

But you know what they say about sows ears, and silk purses. Just my opinion and an attempt to share what I learned and concluded when faced with the same problem.

[Kees Heiden]

First you need to know that the edge really has nicks. Did you look under magnification? Before and after sharpening? Before and after cutting? You can also often feel them with a fingernail, but optical magnification is much more precise. It doesn't have to be a microscope, I can see nicks with an 8x loupe, long after I can't feel them anymore.

I don't think it could be something else then nicks in the steel, but you have to be sure first. And I'm afraid I can't help you much further, because i don't know enough about metal to give a cure for a bad blade.

[David Weaver]

I think it's a matter of the steel being at 29 degrees and maybe preferring another 3 or 4 degrees on the skew. I haven't found any steel of any type that won't eventually chip while wearing when it's below about 33 or so degrees - esp if the wood includes hardwoods and softwoods. It's just a matter of how much you can tolerate.

I wonder if you added literally four or five strokes on a polish stone around 35 degrees if you'd have too fat of a profile for the plane to still cut OK.

At this point, I use planes with a 45 degree bed for everything, so I haven't thought about this for a while. When I used japanese planes more, I was keeping the final bevel around 28 or 29 degrees, and it always drove me a little bit nutty because on hardwoods, a japanese iron will still have minor chipping, and the entire purpose when I was using a japanese plane was to get a bright uninterrupted surface. They are also less convenient with large nicks, but the small ones usually come out in a normal sharpening process.

[Alan Schwabacher]

If two different blades on this plane do it, and your other planes don't, have you considered the possibility that it's not the blade but the sole of your plane that's scratching the stock?

[Matthew N. Masail]

I know those scratches, chippy iron. My A2 blade in the LV apron plane will do that same unless freshly sharpened, which is why I want to try a PMV11.
I would try David's suggestion and give a tiny micro bevel on your last stone.

[Warren Mickley]

Steve, if you have two different Butcher irons and both give problems, I doubt it is the steel.

One thing I thought of is that if you measure the 39 degree bed along the side of the plane, the bed angle when measured perpendicular to the mouth would be slightly higher. For a 15 degree skew (measured along the bottom of the plane) the effective angle measured perpendicular to the mouth would would be 39.97 and for a 20 degree skew the effective angle would be 40.75. So you may have a little more clearance than you had thought and could slightly raise the bevel angle.

I would also spend some extra time sharpening compared to your normal routine to get beyond small flaws that you cannot see. Both on the bevel and the back. Also I would spend extra time stropping on a clean hard piece of leather, back and forth.

[george wilson]

If your Butcher iron was properly hardened to begin with,heating it to a gold color(a darkish straw) isn't going to soften it. It was heated to a darker color originally,to begin with.

It is easy to see if your blade is too hard:Test it with a fine cut file in good condition. I have said here several times that while using antique planes for the many years I was in costume,I found that the most durable irons were the ones that I could barely file with a new,sharp Nicholson file. Of course,these days,unless you have an old USA made Nicholson,that will mean nothing. A butter soft Mexican Nicholson is not going to tell you anything.

I'd first experiment with grinding your blade at a less acute angle to see if that strengthens the edge,preventing the micro chipping that is probably causing your scratches. If all else fails,and your iron is too hard to file,I suggest heating the iron to a dark brown color.

Getting a durable edge is a balancing act between hardness and toughness. I seriously doubt that your blade steel sucks.

[Steve Voigt]

Thanks to everyone who chimed in; I really appreciate the suggestions.

George: You're absolutely right about the gold color not being hot enough; I was just being cautious--didn't want to go to far. I did retemper to a purple-gold color, but that didn't fix it, and I'm reluctant to take it any farther. However, as a side benefit of this project, I did learn to temper more evenly, which I'm happy about. You have written many times that oven tempering can be problematic, and it definitely has been for me. This time around, I tempered on the stove top, and was able to get a much more even color. I should stfu and listen to you more often! :)
The file trick has never worked for me, George. The main problem is that any good file I have is well broken in. But I did have success trying to scratch the backs of several irons with a carbide scribe, and comparing the results. This showed me that the Butcher was actually a little harder than the Hock, so way too hard. It's a little softer now, which is why I'm reluctant to temper more.

David: I had already tried a tiny steeper microbevel, and it didn't help. But I think I agree with you about bed angles. My smoother, which is pitched at 50°, outperformed the other two planes on end grain, and is not remotely hard to push. But you can't shoot with a coffin plane!
That led me to the solution, though. I gave up on maintaining the low angle and started back-beveling the iron. I'm not crazy about back bevels, but it beats consigning the plane to the plane graveyard in my basement. I bet you have one of those. :D
Anyway, the scratches mostly disappeared at 4°, and completely disappeared at 6°. Which leaves me with an included angle of …45°! Doh! If I could do it over again, I'd bed the plane at 45°. Live and learn.

Stanley: I don't think the iron sucks, but it is true that steels like W1, or your Japanese white, are less tough than O1 or Japanese blue. And end grain is very hard on edges. In retrospect, an O1 iron, not vintage, might have been a better choice.

Joshua and Mathew: You guys were definitely right about steeper bevels making the scratches go away. It just took me awhile to get to the back-bevel idea. Thanks!

Warren: I don't have a proper leather strop, but you've convinced me. I'm going to get one from Joel before the summer is out. Your point about spending extra time sharpening is well-taken.

Kees and Alan, thanks for your suggestions. It was definitely the angle, but it was good to rule out all other possibilities.

Thanks again folks!

[Jim Matthews]

If two different blades on this plane do it, and your other planes don't, have you considered the possibility that it's not the blade but the sole of your plane that's scratching the stock?

+1 - the first thing I considered.

If the scratches are aligned, on all pieces and you've changed blades - what else could make the marks?

[Winton Applegate]

You know me contrary. Meaning I never met a blade that was too hard. I live for blades that are too hard.
I think about every maker errors on the side of less hard so they don’t get a bad rap for “chippy” and so the blade is easier to sharpen on those funny oily rocks.

Ha, ha
In fact I just got an e-mail from a Japanese tool supplier offering a plane (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/155845/Tsunesaburo-70mm-Gachirin-Smoothing-Plane---Uozumi.aspx) blade with a blade hardened to 66. Okaaaaaaaaa
The plane is $2000 so maybe not today guys. I will "think about it" and get back to you. Beded at 38 as I recall. Hummmm wonder what I could work with that ?
Bubbinga ? Noooo I tried that . . . hummm
E.G.,
Point of reference
etc.,
for me is the chisel I have. See photo bellow. Sposed to be kinda hard 64

“Chipped out” . . . it’s too hard right ? Nope. As David W. recommended it needed a bit steeper angle.
THAT WAS/IS GREAT ADVICE !

So
a bit less clearance and fatter angle ? If it works but as you said you are about THERE.
What to do ? ? ? ?
hows about, and I don’t spend much time with skews . . .
Hows abouts a back bevel ?
Yep ‘er
That and cheating by wetting the grain if you have to.
I know, it is a game, you want it to cut as well as your new smoother. And do it dry just like your wonderful smoother.
Great job on making that by the way! Sure looks like you won there.
What angle is it by the way. Did you say and I missed it ?

As far as the file test, even with an old worn out file. ahhhh dudes . . .
. . . (am I way off base here thinking that one can touch the end to a grinder to square up a corner of the end (((not the handle tang))) and use that corner as a scratch awl on the blade. Why does it have to be the teeth ?) I am thinking that would not violate any biblical sacred laws or trip any CIA spyware. Or am I in fantasy land again ? I like fantasy land and highly recommend it for the following reasons . . . wait that was the other chatroom . . .

You got some good advice. The strop thing sends up my alarms. I would emphasize HARD like maple not hard like any kind of animal skin. Strop the top upward facing side of the blade all you want but the underside FACET, secondary bevel or not, needs to be polished on a flat hard surface; . . . maple with diamond paste etc. or better yet real stones and a jig.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

That and cheating by wetting the grain if you have to.

I usually do that, when shooting end grain, depending on the wood, it really seems to help. I use an artists marker filled with alcohol or mineral spirits.

[Winton Applegate]

artists marker filled with alcohol or mineral spirits.

Tha's brillient ! I'm a wimp when it comes to fumes in my shop, no windows/ventilation, so I use water. Rusts the tools though.
I have some artist fill it your self fresh new markers so might give that a try.
Or for larger surfaces the equivalent Japanese tool oiler (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/156733/Camellia-Oil-Set-w-100ml-(34oz)-Camellia-Oil-and-Applicator.aspx).
Wohhhhhh are they proud of that ! Probably get one without the bottle of oil.

[Steve Voigt]

Hi Winton,
Thanks for your comments. Like I mentioned above, the solution I eventually hit on was back-beveling, so I guess great minds think alike. :p It's not my favorite solution, but at least I can get on with shooting. I'd think I'd like to try making an O1 blade eventually, but this will do for now.

[Glenn Samuels]

Stanley, I also learned a lot from your explanation. As a new woodworker, this was valuable information.

[David Weaver]

In fact I just got an e-mail from a Japanese tool supplier offering a plane (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/155845/Tsunesaburo-70mm-Gachirin-Smoothing-Plane---Uozumi.aspx) blade with a blade hardened to 66. Okaaaaaaaaa
The plane is $2000 so maybe not today guys. I will "think about it" and get back to you. Beded at 38 as I recall. Hummmm wonder what I could work with that ?
Bubbinga ? Noooo I tried that . . . hummm


No worries, you could get the same plane with a white oak dai from stu for about a grand. (1031 at current exchange rates). JWW has always had a bad habit of pricing things high (in my opinion), but then as the tools get a bit more exclusive, really going off the deep end. There used to be a jewel or two in their catalog, but no longer that I can find.

I'm not sure what the premium is for a red oak dai like that, but a white oak dai is nicer to use, anyway - less fragile.

Whether or not the iron would actually be 66 hardness is something I'd like to see proven with a rockwell tester. I've bought a lot of planes that said they were 64-66, but I believe that of the ones I've bought, exactly one was actually that hardness (made by mosaku). People like the catalog to say something is 65/66 hardness, but they don't like it very much when the tool actually is.

(I do love the white steel, though, regardless - it can feel at 30 degrees like other stuff feels at 25, and it takes a lovely edge even off of something common like oilstones).

[Winton Applegate]

JWW has always had a bad habit

David,

Yah over all they P me Off.
Thanks for the education once again. I have no valid use for such a nice Japanese plane. If I were to buy a plane for that $2k price I would get a Marcou and probably will in the next year or two.

The Japanese plane I went orange julius banana splits for when I first saw it, years back was the one in the photo. Once I found out JWW imported and sold a few I immediately dropped everything and e-mailed them. Some guy there who responded said he would make sure I got one and would handle it "personally". He said he would discuss it with the owner and get back to me. I did not hear back, I sent another what's up. He said he was trying to get a response from the owner of JWW.
That was the end of it. He wouldn't answer my further e-mails and I couldn't get even a go to hell out of them.
Fools.
As far as I know the plane is called horyu (Treasure Of The Dragon)
The maker is Master Masao Miyamoto
No big research there it is on page 120 in the book The Art of Fine Tools

I read about the maker on line but that is as far as I have ever gone with it. I looked passively on Ebay but I don't keep at it. I don't expect to find this plane on Ebay anyway but maybe I am wrong.

If I had it I would probably sleep with it like a teddy bear and that could get embarrassing. I am so nuts for it I keep the page from the book stuck to the inside of the top of one of my tool boxes. "Tool porn" one of my coworkers called it.

(Oh Treasure of the Dragon . . .I would love you even if you were a "mere" 64 hardness)

[Winton Applegate]

Steve,
sorry I didn't read all as I should have


Anyway, the scratches mostly disappeared at 4°, and completely disappeared at 6°.

That is a difference of 2°. Freehanders measure that by eye will you ? Sounds like an argument for a jig. I would have a hard time giving up my jig anyway. I write the angles on the blades in marker and so it is brainless to make changes for "proper angle of reentry".

I am surprised to hear about the 50° for end grain work with the smoother. Oh well I sure get along with steep angle planes best but will change to the lowest angle I can get away with in a heart beat for various logical reasons.

[David Weaver]

Nah, no jig. Those jigs are much more important when you're using a BU plane than they are BD.

I hear you on the pretty pictures of japanese tools. Someone figured out that westerners love really flashy tools with lots of acid etching, etc, and we are very lucky that a few of the makers who make those types of tools (like tasai) are interested in making tools that are flashy and good. At least the good part is what I hear from people in japan, I don't have anything tasai to know.

For a long time I wanted togo reigo, and I'm not sure what stopped me from getting it, but somewhere about when I went to only natural stuff, I just wanted the plainest carbon stuff I could find. Now, I know you're not going to get on with that idea!!

(I hear reigo can be sharpened on natural stones, anyway - one of the other andrews steels, inukubi, sharpens very nicely on natural stones.)

[Steve Voigt]

sorry I didn't read all as I should have


It was a long and painful post. I'm surprised anyone read it!



That is a difference of 2°. Freehanders measure that by eye will you ? Sounds like an argument for a jig. I would have a hard time giving up my jig anyway. I write the angles on the blades in marker and so it is brainless to make changes for "proper angle of reentry".


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know any jigs that can sharpen at 4°. I laid a scrap piece of .125" x 1" steel on my medium India stone, lining it up with the edge of the stone. Then I said tan 4° = .125/x, solved for x, and that determined the distance from the cutting edge to the piece of steel. So I guess I am using a jig, but a free one!



I am surprised to hear about the 50° for end grain work with the smoother. Oh well I sure get along with steep angle planes best but will change to the lowest angle I can get away with in a heart beat for various logical reasons.

50° is the magic number. For single iron fans (you!), it gives you notably increased tearout reduction in return for only a slight increase in pushing resistance. For double iron fans (me!), 50° works a lot like 45°, but it gives you a bit more leeway--you can set the chipbreaker a tad farther away from the edge and still get zero tearout . Kees has some nice research (http://planetuning.infillplane.com/html/cap_iron_study_by_kees_van_der.html) supporting this. That doesn't have much to do with end grain, except as I said the pushing resistance is not much more that 45°, so it works fine.

[Chris Fournier]

Before we all decide that your plane iron sucks, you need a $1000 plane, or that this is super complicated just increase the bevel angle 5 degrees and re-try. Simple stuff here - Occam's Razor fellas.

[Winton Applegate]

Steve,

don't know any jigs that can sharpen at 4°. I laid a scrap piece of .125" x 1" steel on my medium India stone, lining it up with the edge of the stone. Then I said tan 4° = .125/x, solved for x, and that determined the distance from the cutting edge to the piece of steel. So I guess I am using a jig, but a free one!

You put me in the hot seat, in hot water and you pulled me out and handed me a cold one.
Thanks !
Now that I'm bathed and fed I guess I will have a good belch and take a nap.
But before I do it just occurred to me we had a big O' thread here and you still haven't posted a photo of the skew miter plane you are sorting out. Was it in another thread and I just don't remember ?

Chris,


just increase the bevel angle 5 degrees

Yah I almost said that. Then I realized we are not talking about a BU skew, (that's Magrathian. On that planet that means funny low angle plane with the blade in crooked and upside down).

I happen to like those and all but . . .
in this case we are talking about a BD woody skew. That's he man 'murkin for good old NORMAL skew hand plane.

[David Weaver]

Before we all decide that your plane iron sucks, you need a $1000 plane, or that this is super complicated just increase the bevel angle 5 degrees and re-try. Simple stuff here - Occam's Razor fellas.

When I was in college, I knew someone who would always give an answer that another person (or several other people) already gave, on a delay. And then they would act surprised when they were informed that whatever they were saying had already been said (sometimes several times).

I also worked with a person in a previous job who had been taught a technique along the way to stay relevant in (business) conversations by repeating something other people already said (especially if they were technical people).

This reminds me of those.

[Winton Applegate]

It was a long and painful post. I'm surprised anyone read it!

No !
This is a good thread. Thanks for posing it. The only thing that could make it better is to see your skew plane and maybe even a few other peoples. I don't count because I just have the LN BU. Good plane but every body has seen and probably use one of those. In fact I got all impatient and couldn't wait for the new (then) nicker one to come out and I bought the nickerless skew.

That was pre internet days for Winton and so I would have had to wait months for it to come out and for my local Woodcraft to get one in. Special ordering anything from the blighters was a battle at best so it wasn't worth the fight.

I was on fire trying to learn REAL woodworking back then and so no way was I going to put off another toy for that long.

Honestly I thought about it and I figured it wouldn't be too hard for me to machine that little dab when the replacement nickers became available and put it in but I haven't yet. Who knows, maybe a project for this winter. Time off has not been as plentiful as it once was. Beats the more drastic opposite extreme though.

PS: yeh, that's what I recall . . . in the mean time they changed it anyway from a long slidy blade to the round disc cutter. Pretty simple mod. when I get around to it. Can any body lend me a round tuit ?

[Steve Voigt]

Steve,

…it just occurred to me we had a big O' thread here and you still haven't posted a photo of the skew miter plane you are sorting out. Was it in another thread and I just don't remember ?



Winton, thanks, I quite enjoyed this thread!
I haven't shown the skew plane, because I always try to get a plane working well before I do any of the finish work (chamfers, eyes, etc.), so it is just a big block of wood with a blade in it at this point. If you are truly a glutton for punishment, you can read about the progress here (http://blackdogswoodshop.blogspot.com/2014/04/skew-mitre-plane-layout.html), here (http://blackdogswoodshop.blogspot.com/2014/04/skew-mitre-plane-mortise.html) and here (http://blackdogswoodshop.blogspot.com/2014/05/edge-failure.html). The last one is sad. Oh so sad. And that was before my troubles with this blade, but now I get to write a happy post! Hooray! Anyway, I will post some pics of the plane here when it's done. Might be a while though; I need to build some other stuff around the house or the missus will have me sleeping in the doghouse or maybe with the fishes. :p

[Warren Mickley]

A few notes about lower angle planes. I have used the same five bench planes exclusively for over thirty years. Their cutting angles are 45,45,43,43, and 42. The two 43 degree planes have both been used with vintage irons, one with 18th and 19th century irons, the other with 19th and 20th. I can't see any problems using older irons for low angle work. I use the 42 degree plane for end grain and I can see a very small difference in surface quality compared to 45 degrees. I think historic American bench planes were made as low as 40 degrees.

Although the lower limit for planing with a bench plane would be in the upper thirty degree range, the closer one gets to that limit, the more things have to be just right to stay out of trouble. I think the standard 45 degree bench plane is the result of a generous cushion to keep people out of trouble. I have seen videos of guys honing irons who raise the iron "one or two degrees" on their fine stone. But when you watch they really raise it more like 8 degrees.

[george wilson]

Buying a $2000.00 Japanese plane sounds like the wannabe artist who will spend $400.00 on a Kolinski(sp?) brush!! Must be quite a few of them out there,or they'd stop offering them.

[David Weaver]

Like many things in the world of woodworking, and this is just my supposition, it probably is something purchased by well heeled beginners or spouses of wealthy beginners looking for "the best".

A couple of years ago, the average individual in the US didn't have access to a more normal set of prices for japanese tools. $1000 isn't necessarily out of line for a togo reigo plane, but $2000 .....

I guess, as they say, you can't get it if you don't ask for it, and there are certainly plenty of retailers who would like to make a whole bunch on an item and sell few of them vs. a little bit and sell a lot.

These are all thoughts completely unrelated to the thread, but anyway, there's trouble in the world of japanese tools if the maker stops making. The price of used tools of a given make stay high as long as there are new tools from the maker to compare, and as long as there is a retailer over here selling them. Once the maker becomes unknown, then you had better like the tools. There are a very few makers that I can think of who have a lot of value after the maker stops making new. After that, people just flood to the new or the recently retired legend-maker.

And completely unrelated.-(steve is right, I have a plane graveyard just like he does. Mine is a lot like a junk yard - when I have some larger tools - like wooden try planes - that are not perfect shape, they often get cut up and scrapped instead of sold). I might have 20 bench planes that are not smoothers. I'd like to have 5, I just don't know which 5.

[Pat Barry]

Today
Here is what I get on pine end grain:

292883

For comparison, here is my no.4 with a Hock blade.--some faint scratches but nothing I can't live with.

292884


I want to suggest that the issue you were seeing has nothing to do with the blade quality, the blade type, your sharpening technique, which plane you were using. What it has to do with is the quality of the wood you were using - rather the contamination embedded in the end grain.
292997
There is sand embedded in the end grain. This sand created the tiny chipouts in your finely sharpened blade in the first couple of passes you made at cutting this and left the characteristic scratch patern. I bet you a nickel if you started with a freshly cut end you would not have seen this problem.

[george wilson]

But,didn't he plane the SAME piece of end grain pine with the different planes?

I will not disagree that minerals do get sucked up in wood,making some of them,like certain pieces of mahogany,quite abrasive.

[Steve Voigt]

Pat, I wish it were true, but I repeated the test many times, and always got the same results. I probably took 3/4" off the end of that board. I always took off the old scratches with one of the other planes before retesting the Butcher iron. And I also did the same test on a piece of soft maple.

[Chris Fournier]

When I was in college, I knew someone who would always give an answer that another person (or several other people) already gave, on a delay. And then they would act surprised when they were informed that whatever they were saying had already been said (sometimes several times).

I also worked with a person in a previous job who had been taught a technique along the way to stay relevant in (business) conversations by repeating something other people already said (especially if they were technical people).

This reminds me of those.

Insightful David. Seems like you have suffered fools your entire life. Sometimes amidst the diatribes there is a single sentence answer, that gets lost due to volume of verbiage, eriudite postulation, supposition etc.

Another consideration for the OP. If the blade is brand new, grind back a further 1/16" and re-try. Depending on the production process, QC etc.. it may be that the blade is not tempered consistently throughout and the fresh edge is simply too hard at the current cutting edge. Naturally I would want to remove the least amount of material to get to a workable cutting edge, increasing the angle would be my first step regardless of BU/BD, then if this failed I would grind back a good portion of blade and re-try.

I'm always tempted to buy a used hardness tester in the Rockwell scale when I see them for sale, I would buy a white lab coat at the same time and nothing would be untested.

[Frank Drew]

Very expensive tools aren't necessarily marketed to rich newbies who don't know any better; what does a Holtey plane cost, for instance? I imagine most of his customers know exactly what they're getting even though some of them won't ever use the tools for woodworking. It can be about the tool itself, not using the tool; aesthetics rather than utility.

Some people collect super high-quality tools -- just as others collect art, or vintage automobiles, or whatever -- and have the money to afford what they consider the best. (I'm certainly not in that company.)

[george wilson]

Frank,I agree with your post 100%. In fact,I'll warrant that many of my tools have gone to collectors who never used them. Not too bad,though,the rich pay good prices and preserve the tools for posterity!!:)

[Frank Drew]

George,

For instance, I might buy one of your exquisite boxwood or ivory rulers, not because I thought I'd make the cost back measuring stuff in the shop, but because it was a thing of beauty and it's rewarding being close to things like that. A tool is a tool, of course, but anything made by the hand of man can be much more than that.

Thank God for rich collectors, they keep the crafts and skills alive!

[David Weaver]

George's stuff and Karl's stuff are different than the JWW catalog items. There may be some exclusive hand-made items in the JWW catalog, and they may get their stuff directly, but a lot of tsunesaburo and iyoroi stuff that lands on the shores here seems to come through harima. I'd imagine an awful lot of the stuff that ends up at retailers is distributed by harima.

In order to compare karl's stuff and george's stuff, you'd have to have someone doubling the price of karl's and george's stuff, but that's not what's going on here.

I'd imagine that if you put figures like a $1000 togo reigo plane (that's still in production) for $2,000, you won't find too many collectors paying $2,000 instead of $1,000, though you very well might find collectors bargaining with stu to get the plane for exactly $1,000, or just paying what the exchange price was

What I was referring to as targeting beginners is selling a plane for $2,000 when you can get a very very similar plane for $1,000. the cost of goods difference I see between the two is a few bucks for red oak instead of white, and perhaps the blacksmith would say that he did something special to the togo reigo that's in the $2K plane that wasn't done for the one at $1K

Anyway, I don't see anyone selling karl's $8,000 smoothers for $16,000 or I'd say the same thing. Collectors usually know what things are worth and they know that paying middlemen and retailers lots more for something otherwise available isn't good use of collector dollars. I'd imagine the hardcore japanese tool collectors probably are more focused on stuff like kiyotada, the chiyozurus, ichichiro, etc, and other makers that were awarded almost royal status and made fairly understated (but very tidy) tools.

Of course, that's all my opinion, just in case there are any JWW fans.

As for performance, there's similar performance in a $500 plane vs. $1,000 or $2,000. No matter the maker, ending up with something that's actually 66 hardness is a bit risky. That's why I'd like to see a few rockwell strikes and have a few hours of use at 66 hardness to see if everything plays out. The holy grail is something that hard that's also tough, but there's no room for error with that. People like to hear that someone is using old process with no measuring tools, just low light, and at the same time they want 66 hardness and every tool to be super. I think that's an unrealistic combination, and I wonder how the maker did the tempering - computer furnace?

I wrestle with the same thing - I like tools that are made with old skill, even though new skill probably makes more consistent tools.

Just as a side point of interest, alex gilmore raids old stone shops and hardware stores in japan and brings their stock back here and sells it. For a period of time last year, he was taking stock made in the 50s or 60s out of high carbon steel and hardness testing the irons (this being a period where a lot of craftsmen were probably using natural stones, and none or almost none of those tools were made for anything other than pro use). The most common hardness figures I remember him reporting were 60-62. I have an ogata iron, I would be surprised if it was harder than 62 - really surprised. It is a joy to work with.

I'm not trying to be contrary with the explanation above - just clarifying that the upsell that's occuring is not the tool itself, I'm sure the Tsune plane is quality. It's the markup and presentation - and that someone who saw stu's listing and someone who saw that listing would scratch their head a bit before buying the one out of the JWW catalog.

We've probably all been there before when we get excited about something (and especially before we could just get on the internet and do a query) and buy it and then find it later for less.

[george wilson]

I love working for rich people!! I accept that they are good at making money,and they want what I am good at making. Without them,I could not have done my best work and still paid my bills.

Frank,I'd HATE to be confined to just using my 18th. C. repro rulers. They are nearly 3/16" thick,the division lines did not go all the way to their edges for some reason,and the opportunity for parallax is the same as using the cheap,old thick wooden rules they sold at dime stores. The curator suggested that they might have been used with calipers for setting distances. But,I have not seen an old rule full of holes from the legs of dividers. They would have beed certainly severely defaced thus.

[Winton Applegate]

missus will have me sleeping in the doghouse

I don’t even get that . . . I have to sleep on the deck and all I get to lay on is a paper.

things have to be just right to stay out of trouble

Yah . . . I still haven't hit that formula yet.

I don’t know much about the latter but am quite familiar with the former.


the wannabe artist who will spend $400.00 on a Kolinsky(sp?) brush!!

So I got took on that brush huh ?
heck
(kiddinnnnnng)
I didn’t pay even half that much for mine.
:)

You would be proud of Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer
a real artist, in galleries, sold some paintings, goes to figure drawing classes regularly just for the enjoyment of it . . .
anyway
she started with hog bristle brushes (oil paint / no medium) then painting knives (still used those off and on) then surgical gloves and just her fingers (impasto yah know)
lately she has been on a series where she uses a certain weight of brown paper shipping padding some how as a paint applicator.
NO Kolinsky

I just hang out and get the whole artist thing vicariously.
But if I ever wanted to paint “just like her” I know where my Kolinsky brush is.

[george wilson]

Thank you for posting that painting,Winton.Now I know where I have gone all wrong!!!!:):):):):)

As I have often said of certain makers I know personally(none here): They get by by selling their stuff to people who are more ignorant of their craft than they are. And,having NERVE enough to ask outrageous prices for it. There are plenty of well monied persons who automatically ascribe excellence to something because it is incredibly high priced. They haven't enough aesthetic training(or inborn talent),to use their own eyes and brains to see otherwise. I have seen an enameled brooch with a well executed rooster on it at a show,with an asking price of $10,000.00. Now,do come along!!!:)

There are another set of people,again well monied,who see excellence in an object that has a high degree of mechanical perfection(if NOT an artistic,creative,original accomplishment),and will pay outrageous prices for it. I won't name names of tool makers. I cannot rate a Nth. degree of perfection in a straight forward copy of a fairly simple old object as worthy of exceedingly high worth. I enjoy seeing them,but would not pay what is asked,even If I had won the lottery. For example(and THIS is not the fairly simple object I refer to) ,$50,000.00 dollars(1980 price!) for a German Luger made in the rare .45 caliber,of which only one original was ever made(one that survived. I think 2 were made,one destroyed in Gov't. testing). But,the guy gets it,and has a long waiting list. He has made special jigs to make every part by now.

By the way,I have a Luger. It takes nerves of steel to shoot it with target accuracy,as the weight is all in the grip,"balance" be hanged!! I wish I had an artillery model with an 8" barrel,to weight the fore end). And,the trigger pull cannot be made lighter. I'll take the 1911 Colt any day,regardless of its less aesthetic (or perhaps less brutal?) design. The Luger certainly looks wicked.

There are other examples,closer to home here.

It takes all kinds,as the saying goes.

[Adam Maxwell]

Another consideration for the OP. If the blade is brand new, grind back a further 1/16" and re-try. Depending on the production process, QC etc.. it may be that the blade is not tempered consistently throughout and the fresh edge is simply too hard at the current cutting edge.

Yeah, this is especially noticeable with NOS irons and chisels (in my personal experience and from what I've read). Grinding back 1/16" will usually get to steel that holds an edge without chipping, but may take more. This drove me crazy with a vintage NOS single iron in a mitre plane I made last year. Those same scratches appeared in end grain after a couple of strokes.

[David Weaver]

George, the difference between what you're talking about and the JWW listing is that you're talking about perfection or rarity that's only available in one place. The serious collectors love that stuff.

But a plane that you can get as many copies of as you want for $1000 or $1100, well, a collector might buy a few of those, too, to sit on, but they are unlikely to go to a catalog and buy the same thing for $2000. It's not so much the expensive good I was talking about in terms of targeting beginners and spouses, etc, it was asking so much more money for the same thing as someone else sells for about half as much and really talking it up.

I'm reminded of some of the online stanley tool dealers who ask three times or more as much for a plane and use the word "rare and excellent" for everything they sell. Some of them are a bit more old school (priced like they may have priced things before stanley planes could just be bought from every corner of the universe at a click of the button), but still practice business as if they don't know about the rest of the market - hoping either to find a loyal buyer or someone who doesn't do any comparison shopping at all. There's a dealer with, for example, sort-of-OK-looking round sided bedrock 605s for $398. And transitionals for $180 - one of which I have in better condition than theirs and couldn't find someone who would pay $30.

I am by no means bothered by rich customers and collectors, though, they are usually just looking for something very specific and truly rare.

[Stanley Covington]

Buying a $2000.00 Japanese plane sounds like the wannabe artist who will spend $400.00 on a Kolinski(sp?) brush!! Must be quite a few of them out there,or they'd stop offering them.

I am always irritated when I see ads for $2,000 Japanese planes. Obviously someone is buying them.

There are a number of pieces, parts, and factors to look at. The blade. The body, block or "dai." The carving on the blade. The packaging. The reputation.

The amount of labor that goes into making a very very good plane blade is more than to make a cheap plane blade, of course. And we can all agree it is worth paying more for a blacksmith's skills and expertise SO LONG AS THE RESULT IS A SUPERIOR PRODUCT. But there is no justifiable reason a top-quality hand-forged blade should cost more than $200-$300. The labor and material expenditures past this point cannot be accounted for on a balance sheet, IMO. The chipbreaker might add another $30.

A good block or dai is very important, but the consumer pays a lot more for perfect grain and perfect cuts. Perfect grain helps a lot in terms of stability, but the perfect cut that Japanese consumers prefer adds a lot to the cost, in the same way one can easily pay $100 dollars or more for a perfect melon, or $15 for a perfect apple over here. The very best dai, custom cut to match the blade, should not cost more than $150.

The carving on the blade is seldom done by the blacksmith, but is subbed out to a specialist. It costs about $30 extra per blade, and adds nothing to the performance. For Americans that cannot read the characters (not that they really mean anything) carving makes little sense. Kinda like a fancy paint job on a car, I guess.

The paulownia wood boxes are silly, IMO. I can't imagine housing an oak and steel handtool in a soft wood box that will break apart if dropped on concrete with the plane inside. As useful as stilletto-heel hunting boots.

And then there is the calligraphy on the boxes and sometimes even on the plane body. But you can guess my opinion on that.

So a top-of-the line (in terms of performance) entirely handmade, handforged, un-pimped plane from the shop of a very experienced and capable blacksmith should not cost more than $480 retail in Japan. So assuming the price is doubled when it travels to America, that is still less than $1,000.

Of all the hand-forged edged tools, plane blades are easiest to make, and require the least skill. Simple fact. Chisels are much more difficult. Saws are the most difficult of all by several magnitudes.

There are plenty of blacksmiths that have figured out how to charge more for appearance and inflated reputation than for performance. Worse is those that try to sell average (or worse) planes by smiths lacking even the reputation at inflated prices by pimping them.

There is one famous smith, no longer among us, who has long made a very good blade, and who's reputation went crazy because of the Kezuroukai. In fact, I own some of his products from before his rise to great fame. With his increased fame, he began pimping is planes with dramatic carving, acid etching, kiri boxes, silk lining, and calligraphy (shudder). Here in Tokyo, his products are sitting in the tool store cabinets priced at $2,400. Are theses tarted-up planes made differently, or do they cut better than the $350 plane he made before his rise to fame that I bought from old-stock (with a very very nice dai) a few years ago?

Hell no.

Towards the end of his life, this blacksmith was having blades made by others and was having his name carved into them, and selling them at inflated prices. That is how insane it became.

But he was only following the path that many blacksmiths had trod before him. In Japan, this path was first pioneered by the swordsmiths.

$2,000 for a Japanese plane only makes sense to the collector.

[Bob Jones]

Late to contribute, but I will add a little. Recently I reconditioned a Stanley number 4 that had a little pitting on the sole. I lapped out 90% of the pitting and stopped because it was nice and flat. After tuning the rest of the plane I used it for a while. It cut perfect at first, but after a few minutes of use I started seeing the same lines in the wood and noticed chipping of the blade (honed at 32 deg). I did this a couple of times and noticed the smallest shiny fleck on the board. It came from the mouth of the plane, I think. I lapped the bottom again to remove all pitting, cleaned the wood with a metal brush, and the plane worked fine.

Short answer - be sure the sole is in good shape. Especially around the mouth.