Looking for places to buy old tools [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

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James Ziegler

07-11-2014, 10:43 AM

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here for a while, but first time posting. I've been woodworking for a while now, and have moved more and more to hand tools as I've progressed. I've got a decent start on my tools, but I'm still missing some things, and I'm looking for good suggestions on local places to look. What I'm looking for:

panel saws (building a Dutch tool chest right now, and want a pair of saws, rip and crosscut that will fit inside. 24" blad or shorter should fit)
tenon saw (I might just get the Veritas bolded spline, but vintage is good too)
hand planes (I have the basics, with decent jack planes (Sargent 414 and Stanley 5 1/4), but by smoother and jointer are cheapie Groz planes, and I know I can get better with vintage).
Rasps
dividers

I'm in Salem County, NJ so very close to Wilmington, DE. I've been to the New Castle farmers market, and didn't see much there, but I'll probably check it out again. I'm also thinking of going out to Adamstown, PA to Shupps Grove for their tool and transportation weekend in August. Anywhere else local that I should be looking?

I'm also going to be in the Columbus, OH area for a weekend this summer. Any good place that I could check out there (I'll have a couple hours available on Saturday morning).

Thanks,
James

David Weaver

07-11-2014, 11:05 AM

Ebay and the trusty dealers like Josh (hyperkitten) and some others, though the trusty reasonable price dealers are decreasing in numbers.

If you can find something on patrick leach's list that has a cosmetic compromise or two, you can get a decent price there, too. When tools are "just right", he charges fairly stiff for them, though - not that I think that's unfair when a dealer is making a living, I just am too cheap for that kind of stuff.

Shopping in person for specific things has never been a great venture for me. Going to flea markets and buying whatever is a good deal if there's anything there is a lot better. Too much stuff floats right up to ebay and etsy these days for there to be tons of stuff at a given flea market. It's not a universal law, but as a rule, flea markets don't have as good of stuff as they used to, and there's a lot of junk that isn't worth shipping on ebay.

Unless you're traveling with your tools, I wouldn't buy saws based on what would fit in a tool chest - 24" and shorter saws have two problems:
* on a rip panel saw, you'll never get the stroke you'd get with a longer saw, which is sort of pointless to fiddle with if you're actually intending to use a rip saw to rip lumber. It's a physical activity and you don't want to do most of it with a dainty saw grind
* shorter saws are usually a lighter plate, and you don't want or need that for general work

James Ziegler

07-11-2014, 12:12 PM

David,

Thanks for the reply. I have been watching Ebay and some dealers. I probably need to up my ebay searching skills a little bit, most of what I find either looks like total junk or is overpriced.

My specific examples are tools that I'd like to get, but I'm making stuff now without them, so I don't feel the need for getting any of it this week or anything like that.

As for the saw size, I already have some 26" saws. My father-in-law gave me some tools that he had acquired while he had a booth at a local antique mall. There are actually 5 saws, all 8ppi crosscut and I don't think that any of them are particularly great. I'v been thinking of retoothing one of them as a rip saw, I think that jointing and going every other tooth would give me 4.5ppi? (But that's probably a topic for another trhread, which I'll probably start when I can post some photos of the saws). I built pair of sawbenches last weekend, and using them to crosscut for the chest, I had the saw hit the floor a couple times, so I was actually thinking that for my small size, a 24" saw might be a better fit. Of course, better sawing technique might be the real answer here.

Thanks,
James

Ebay and the trusty dealers like Josh (hyperkitten) and some others, though the trusty reasonable price dealers are decreasing in numbers.

If you can find something on patrick leach's list that has a cosmetic compromise or two, you can get a decent price there, too. When tools are "just right", he charges fairly stiff for them, though - not that I think that's unfair when a dealer is making a living, I just am too cheap for that kind of stuff.

Shopping in person for specific things has never been a great venture for me. Going to flea markets and buying whatever is a good deal if there's anything there is a lot better. Too much stuff floats right up to ebay and etsy these days for there to be tons of stuff at a given flea market. It's not a universal law, but as a rule, flea markets don't have as good of stuff as they used to, and there's a lot of junk that isn't worth shipping on ebay.

Unless you're traveling with your tools, I wouldn't buy saws based on what would fit in a tool chest - 24" and shorter saws have two problems:
* on a rip panel saw, you'll never get the stroke you'd get with a longer saw, which is sort of pointless to fiddle with if you're actually intending to use a rip saw to rip lumber. It's a physical activity and you don't want to do most of it with a dainty saw grind
* shorter saws are usually a lighter plate, and you don't want or need that for general work

David Weaver

07-11-2014, 12:51 PM

An 8 or 7 point rip is not a bad saw to have around, either, if you have some excess 8 point saws (if you don't, you will if you buy many saws - there is nothing more common than an 8 point carpenters saw).

You will probably want a rip saw in the 5.5 point range. That's a good saw that can cut fast and won't be too rough on 3/4 to 5/4 material.

Stew Denton

07-11-2014, 1:02 PM

Hi James,

I am with David on saw length. For me, a long wide heavy saw is easier to do precision work with than a lighter shorter saw. Thin light blades tend to be more whippy in my view. I want a blade that is as stiff as I can get.

Retoothing is a great way to get from what you have to what you want. I have had it done, rather than try to retooth myself, because I think GOOD pros can go a better job of retoothing than I can.

There are a lot of 8 crosscuts around, because years ago if a person just had one handsaw, it was very likely going to be an 8 crosscut. So you find a lot of 8s around, and obviously you have plenty of them. That said, you need other types of handsaws as well. That is why I had some of mine retoothed, and I have never regretted that action.

Consider retoothing to a 7 rip instead of a 4 1/2. My 7 is easier to do precise work with than is my 4 1/2, at least I think it is. I know there is a lot to be said for the 4 1/2, though, and they do cut faster I think.

Also consider retoothing one of your 8s to a finish cross cut, either a 10 or a 12. The finer tooth size is easier to do precise work with. I use my 8s a lot, for general crosscutting, but for fine work, the finish saw is drastically better.

Regards,

Stew

Jim Koepke

07-11-2014, 1:03 PM

James,

Welcome to posting in the Creek.

You never know where the next tool bargain will be found. Sometimes a thrift store or pawn shop will actually have something that stands out. It is just being in the right place at the right time.

If I am out on a planned rust hunt there are a few things I like to have in my pocket. A magnifier, a screw driver and maybe a small scrap of fine sandpaper. I used to keep a 1" square of sandpaper in my wallet and still carry a slightly magnetized screw driver on my key chain.

When I was more avid about rust hunting I would always talk to the people in antique shops, flea markets and yard sales. Often nothing would come of it. Often enough I would leave my email and get a response or sometime they would tell me of another shop off the beaten path.

jtk

James Ziegler

07-11-2014, 1:15 PM

David and Stew,

I guess I have a little more playing around with the saws that I have before I need to get more. I certainly don't need 5 8 point saws, and most of them don't appear to be great quality (I think most are post-war, and one proclaims "Stanley Professional" and has phillips sawnuts, so I know it's later, and probably not partucularly good), so I feel I don't loose much if a screw them up. Certainly refiling to 8 rip would be simple.

The reason I was thinking of retoothing to a 4.5 is just that it would be simplier than a different tooth count. Although I did see some patterns to print on some website. I'll grab some photos of the saws this weekend to try to get some help on which are worth working with, and which are total junk. If I can turn a pile of rusty old saws into something useful with various saws having different purposes, only costing me the price of some files, a saw set, and some time, that would be a good way for me to go right now.

-James

Richard Kee

07-11-2014, 3:07 PM

Alan Schwabacher

07-11-2014, 3:22 PM

Stew Denton

07-11-2014, 3:37 PM

James,

Post #1. (I have written two long posts of buying tools on Ebay, and had the net eat both of them, so am writing a few short posts...thus the reason for "post #1.")

I am in the Texas panhandle, and there aren't many flee markets around here, especially compared to where you are, so Ebay is about my only choice, although I am thinking about going to a show or two with my Son in Law who lives a few hours away.

There are lots of tools on Ebay, but there is no substitute for knowing DETAILS about the tools you are looking for, and being very in tune to price and being very particular what you buy. In the case of Ebay, my advise is "Let the Buyer Beware." I think most of the sellers try to do a good job and try to be fair, but in the case of some (or many) of them and tools, many don't know the fine points of how to tell a hand plane from an airplane, so YOU have to know those differences. I don't know how many Stanley Bailey planes I have looked at that the seller describes as being a "type 11" for example, that were not even close to being a "type 11." In some cases the planes were not even Stanley planes, much less a "type 11" Stanley plane. Unfortunately, the seller just doesn't know, or only knows enough to be dangerous, but unfortunately most of the time they don't know that they don't know.

Read articles from magazines, and the net, and read books from the library. It will not take long for you to get up to speed. A good book is Dunbar's book "Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Woodworking Tools." There are books out there on planes, for example the book by Schwarz, as well as others.

Good sources of information on Stanley planes are site on "Stanley Plane Types", and sites like the "Blood and Gore" site on Stanley planes. Also realize that the folks who write these sites are human just like the rest of us and may have opinions that many of the rest of us would not necessarily agree with. That said, they are great sources of information.

The rest of my posts will be on buy hand planes on Ebay, because that is what I have been up to most lately.

Stew

Stew Denton

07-11-2014, 4:11 PM

Post #2, buying hand planes

After you become very knowing about what you want, you need to know what condition you have to have. I usually go for "bargain" tools that need a bit of cosmetic work to make them look nice. If you want to buy one that looks really pretty, you will pay a lot more for it usually. I don't mind a few hours with finish stripper, Naval Jelly, sandpaper, steel wool, and some refinishing work to save some bucks, so go for tools that are sound and only have easily fixable cosmetic issues.

If the tool you are looking at has broken or missing parts, be sure to find out what the parts will cost you before you bid on the tool, because quite often you end up saving very little and have the pleasure of going to the trouble of finding the parts. Looking at the "sold" section on Ebay is a good way to find out what the parts will cost, and how available they are. My experience is that if two parts are broken or missing you will very seldom save any money, although it is possible, and as often as not the tool and the price of the two broken parts, once you pay for the shipping, is more than a good tool costs in the first place.

I normally will not buy a tool that doesn't have a picture of every side of the tool. You can ask the seller about the hidden side, though, and normally they will respond.

I look for old Stanley planes, because they are good quality, generally, and should you need a part in the future you can normally find it, because there are a bazillion of those old Stanley planes out there. That said, if another good brand of plane is available, and its parts are all there and are in good shape, it is fine to go for it.

Remember though, most of the old planes, although there is at least one exception, are made from cast iron, and if dropped on a concrete floor, they can break. For that reason look carefully at the pictures, or if at a flee market the plane itself, for cracks. Sometimes they are not easy to see. The seller should tell you about them, but sometimes they aren't aware of the crack either. If a plane has a crack in the body, walk away, it isn't a bargain at any price, unless you are buying it ONLY for the other parts.

Look carefully at the tote for cracks. These are also sometimes hard to see. If a tote has a break or crack that has been repaired, even if the repair is excellent and hard to detect, you should get a significant discount in the price. Likewise if the plane has initials or other identifying marks on it, you should get a significant discount.

Also, if the CHEEKS of the plane have any cracked off spots, (and we are talking about SMALL cracked off spots that do not have cracks that can propagate) say at the toe or heel of the plane, these will not necessarily hurt the use of the plane, but only if right on the ends of the cheeks by the toe or heel. That said, I am not interested in such a plane, but again, if you are just looking for a user, and price is critical, such defects do not hurt the plane at all for use. Again, however, such a defect should earn you a significant discount in the price.

Look the plane over for pitting. If there are significant pits you will not be able to remove them in the restoration efforts. Very light surface rust is OK, if you don't mind sandpaper, Naval Jelly, steel wool, and elbow grease. You can restore such a plane beautifully if you so desire.

Even significant pitting is not a problem if you just want a user, and the pits are not in critical areas. You can still clean the plane up to where it doesn't look too bad, but will never get rid of the pits.

Stew

Sam Beagle

07-11-2014, 4:53 PM

Can someone please expand on Adamstown, I'm from central PA as well. I would LOVE to visit this show

Stew Denton

07-11-2014, 5:07 PM

Part #3,

Lever Caps, Iron, and Chip Breakers: Look these over.

The iron should almost Zero pitting on the back. A very light surface rust is OK, but pitting is not, if it is down on the business end of the iron. To get an iron really sharp, you have to get the back flat and take it to about a mirror finish. You will never get it to that point if the iron has significant pitting, and it will take a very long time if it has minor pitting. A very light surface rust or a patina can be removed quickly. So significant pitting on the business end means you will need to replace the iron. (The same is true for chisels....stay away from pitting on the back of the blade.) It is amazing how often you see chisels or plane irons shown on Ebay where they show the bevel side, but not the back, and the back is the critical side, not the front.

The chip breaker should not be pitted where it mates against the iron, either on the front or the back. The chip will have to smoothly peal off of the front of the chip breaker, and pitting on the mating face can prevent it from tightly closing against the iron, thus letting chips get between the iron than chip breaker....a major problem and pain. Finally look over the lever cap. The contact end should not have any major chips missing. The lever cap needs to put consistent pressure on the iron from one end to the other. A chip large enough to prevent even pressure will need to be replaced. Very small chips are not a problem, other than cosmetic, but big ones should be avoided.

Look at the overall condition of the plane. If it is rusted to the point that bolts could be frozen in you should not be interested. Also look at the knob, small cracks are not a big deal, but missing chunks, particularly at the base mean that you need to replace the nob. The mouth of the plane is critical. It should not have any significant chips missing from the mouth, and the corners of the mouth are good places for cracks to form and to be difficult to see. Even a tiny crack there is enough for me to walk away from the plane.

Look over the frog, looking for cracks, etc. The horizontal adjuster, depth adjuster wheel, and vertical adjuster bolt should move freely and should not have excessive play. Look at the depth adjuster wheel. If it has marks on it like pliers or vise grips were used on it, that means that it was once frozen up...not a good thing.

Finally look over the markings on the plane carefully to make sure that you are getting the "Bailey Type", or whatever, that you are after. I recently bought a #4 on Ebay thinking it was a type 15....it wasn't. It was a type 16 with a type 15 lever cap. I didn't carefully follow my own rules to make absolutely sure what I was getting. When Stanley built the planes, they had no idea that in the future folks would divide them off into "types." When they made changes from on "type" to the next, they used up all of the old parts, so you can have parts from one "type" on the next "type", and that is just the way it is.

Back in the day, when someone broke a part on a plane, Stanley sent what parts it had, and parts like the lever caps are interchangeable from one plane to the next. Also today, folks buy broken planes on the cheap, assemble the good parts into usable planes, and sell the result on Ebay. Like I said "let the buyer beware." Now I am going to have to sell that #4, and get back on to buy the model I want. I will never buy another one unless I can tell for certain that the parts are correct, which means I can see pictures of the patent dates, markings, face of the frog, etc.

Hope this helps you in your quest for planes.

Regards,

Stew

Alan Schwabacher

07-11-2014, 5:28 PM

Can someone please expand on Adamstown, I'm from central PA as well. I would LOVE to visit this show

If you go to MWTCA.org and look under tool meets, there is a contact person listed for each area. That's the one to ask.

Moses Yoder

07-11-2014, 6:38 PM

James Ziegler

07-12-2014, 8:00 PM

The best place I've found is a Midwest Tool Collectors Association (MWTCA) swap meet. The area P meet Aug 24 in Adamstown, PA looks closer to you than the area R Avoca, NY meet July 24-26. While neither is very close, both are closer than you might have guessed based on the "Midwest" in the name. Check their web page at MWTCA.org.

I was looking at that a week or 2 ago. Adamstown, PA is definately closer to me than anywhere in NY would be, and I was thinking of heading there to some large flea markets sometime anyway. Thanks for pointing it out.

James Ziegler

07-12-2014, 8:08 PM

Part #3,

Lever Caps, Iron, and Chip Breakers: Look these over.

Hope this helps you in your quest for planes.

Regards,

Stew

Stew,

Thanks for the detailed posts. You should think about putting them together somewhere more accessable. I've read some of the sources taht you mention, but not all of them.

I did manage to buy a couple planes a few years ago, well before I had found any of this information. I did OK, but wish I had bought more when that booth was still at the local antique mall. The Sargent 414 that I got is a good user. The Stanley 5 1/4 should be too, but I've been having a lot of trouble setting the chipbreaker on it. I probably just need to set it up with lots of camber and use it for rough work.If I went though all of your advice, I might have skipped it. I probably should have also picked up the Sargent 418 (guessing what it was, I'm not sure anymore) that the booth had, but it's long gone now.

James Ziegler

07-12-2014, 8:11 PM

A good place to look for vintage woodworking tools is in the classified forum here. You can buy without being a contributor, you have to be a contributor to sell. Look every day and act fast; the good deals are snapped up in a hurry.

Are you interested in buying saws that need to be cleaned up and sharpened or do you want them ready to use?

I can go either way on any saws. I've tried my hand at sharpening already, and I need more practice. That particular saw isn't doing a vrey good job right now, but I think that it may need more set, and also cleaned better. I'll learn eventually. I'll probably also take a saw sharpening class this fall at a local woodworking store. There's a hand tool only woodworker that lives near here that ran a successful class at the store this spring, and he's coming back to do another this fall, so I think I'll sign up this time. So if I don't figure out sharpening before then, I'll have a chance then.

Cody Kemble

07-13-2014, 12:06 AM

I just had to look it up too. I grew up in central PA and never heard of it. We always went to the green dragon or roots. I actually will be down there the weekend of the tool show. Now I just have to find an excuse to go.

Jim Matthews

07-13-2014, 7:07 AM

Englishtown, NJ at the other end of the state had great variety back in the early "aughts".

There was once a reliable flea market in Marlton, NJ at a former drive in, but that's
from the same era and my memory was that pickings were slim, there.