Different twist to winding sticks

[Floyd Mah]

I thought that I would post this light bulb moment. Perhaps someone else has done it in the past, but the idea is new to me. I've been building some wall cabinets with mahogany that I got for a good price. The reason that the price was good was that it was kind of a pile of boards that someone brought in to the lumber place. Most of their usual stock was nice straight stuff. What I got was mostly straight and already surfaced. But it was obviously an old stock. Many of the boards had slight bends and some winding.

What I wanted to discuss was the subject of winding sticks. Having read about and trying the traditional technique of using winding sticks to check the twist in the boards, I've employed the technique in the past. Each time, I had to make a new set of sticks, since the last ones would have been used and then lost. I wear glasses, so part of the technique involved trying to get the sticks to line up and then to get the proper focus through my glasses. I've lost the ability to accommodate many years ago, so that focusing on the near and far sticks at the same time, which looking over my glasses (I'm near-sighted) and then through them is not easy. In addition, since the nearer stick is visualized over the top of the glasses and the farther stick is seen through the glasses, I am flipping the glasses up and down to try to line up the two. (Maybe I can stand on my head to avoid this). In addition, I have trouble getting a good look along the transverse direction to judge the tilt of the sticks. Can't seem to pick up both ends of both sticks at the same time. Anyway, checking for winding is a process I've learned to dread. Also care must be taken to have the sticks parallel or your results are skewed. :rolleyes:

So, where's the light-bulb? I realized that most of the time, the boards are flat along their width at either end, so that placing a gauge of some sort anywhere on each end of the board is valid. Furthermore, I had many devices to check right angles in my workshop: adjustable squares, triangles, roofing squares, and so on. I always had something handy to check for winding. Many of these I can stand up without additional support. If I placed an adjustable square or triangle on either end of the board, I could sight along them and verify that their edges are parallel or not. I no longer had to worry about flipping my glasses up and down. Since I am comparing the edges, it wasn't crucial to place them exactly perpendicular to the length of the board. They just had to stand up on the board unsupported.

That's it. Get rid of those winding sticks. Another part of my technique for straightening out bends and twists is to use a scrub plane (I have a wonderful 100 year old Stanley) to remove the unnecessary bumps in the wood before running it over a jointer and through the planer. Hope this is useful to someone.

Edit: I'm afraid that I didn't clearly state what I did differently. Bill, the second post below, identified what I did. What I did differently was not to place random objects on the boards to visualize the winding. I was able to use the vertical limb of the square or triangle to provide an indicator perpendicular to the board. This also minimized my problem with accommodation as well as difficulty of crouching down to see the winding sticks (couldn't keep myself steady while crouched, so couldn't compare the ends of the sticks). Probably could also place a backdrop behind the squares to easily see the verticals.

[Curt Putnam]

I can't bend down or squat low enough to use winding sticks so I use a level and a straight edge instead - no fiddling with my glasses either.

[Bill Houghton]

For those who still like winding sticks but suffer the "lost stick" problem, do what I did: watch at yard sales for cheap aluminum levels. I have two 24" levels from which I removed the junky level vials, that I use exclusively as winding sticks. Straight, stable material, stand up on their own, harder to lose.

The idea of checking winding with the vertical leg of a square is a good one.

[Tom M King]

I often use levels anyway, just like they are. I usually use four footers though.

[Warren Mickley]

I have used the same pair of mahogany winding sticks since 1978. This was a big improvement over trying to use scraps or whatever was at hand. I recommend making a nice pair and learning to use them.

[Steve Voigt]

I have used the same pair of mahogany winding sticks since 1978. This was a big improvement over trying to use scraps or whatever was at hand. I recommend making a nice pair and learning to use them.

Yes, this.
My first attempts to use winding sticks, about 20 years after Warren made his, were a total failure. So I used other methods, but I periodically kept coming back to the sticks. At certain point, it clicked, and once I had learned to use them, I realized they are far more precise than the seat of the pants methods I had been trying to use as a substitute. As with so many other things in hand tool work, it turns out that the method that's been around for for hundreds of years really is the best way.
I agree with Warren that having good sticks matters. They don't have to be pretty, though. Mine are 1/2" baltic birch plywood. One of them is "inlaid" with small black rectangles--from a sharpie! I also made symmetrical marks on the bottom edge of both pieces so they are easier to center. Not heirloom tools, but highly functional.

[Zach Dillinger]

I have used the same pair of mahogany winding sticks since 1978. This was a big improvement over trying to use scraps or whatever was at hand. I recommend making a nice pair and learning to use them.

This. I started with some aluminum angle iron that I picked up at the Tractor Supply. I soon graduated to a shop-made set in walnut with a curly maple sighting strip on the back stick. I'm not sure what the "lost stick" problem is... you throw away tools?

[Dave Cullen]

Mine are made of oak - and I use them all the time. They hang on a nail on the shop wall so they don't get lost. Also doweled together so they stay as a pair. Only thing I'd change is that I should have inlaid contrasting wood (eyes aren't what they used to be).

I don't think there's anything that does their job any better.

[Judson Green]

I often use levels anyway, just like they are. I usually use four footers though.


Me too, though I did put some blue painter tape on one of em for contrast. Both are yellow stablia levels. Not four footers, a twelve incher and a sixteen incher.

[Jim Matthews]

I have two 24" levels from which I removed the junky level vials, that I use exclusively as winding sticks. Straight, stable material, stand up on their own, harder to lose.

The idea of checking winding with the vertical leg of a square is a good one.

+1 on a pair of cheap aluminum levels.
I covered one with white tape, and lit it brightly.

I can still make out the twist, this way.

[Chris Parks]

You could incorporate some cheap lasers in a set of winding sticks for those that have sight problems. A bit over the top maybe but it would work and actually might be quicker and no bending down.

[Jim Matthews]

You need a known flat, and parallel surface to use a laser this way.

Something like a reference plate that a fan laser could illuminate.
It could even be something like a surveyor's transit.

292810

[Dave Anderson NH]

For my winding sticks I used an aluminum extrusion. You can buy a 6 foot length of a 3/4" x 3/4" aluminum extrusion at HD or Lowes for just a few bucks. Aluminum extrusions tend to be very straight because the process is really a combination of extrusion and pultrusion. With mine I cut the length into 2 pieces about 24" long, filed the burrs and sharp corners off of the ends, and drilled a 5/16" diameter hand hole in one end of each. The final step was spray painting one white and the other black. They work beautifully and I never have to worry about warping or twisting due to humidity changes.

[Matthew N. Masail]

for only 30$ one could buy a set from LV and be done with it, but I like the idea of using a sqaure on it's end too.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=53276&cat=1,230,41182

[Frank Drew]

I guess I'm with the group that doesn't understand losing winding sticks, certainly not more than once. Like Warren and others, I made a nice pair many years ago, used them often, and still have them.

Sock, though, I have lost, many of them. I have no idea at all where they got to.

[Alan Schwabacher]

If I understand the OP, he's saying that because of his glasses and eyesight, it's easier for him to compare two verticals than two horizontals, so using squares makes it easier for him than straight winding sticks.

Other things that will help focusing on two objects at different distances are to step back as far as your shop lets you, and to increase the depth of focus by using as bright light as possible, and squinting. Using squares does not remove the need to compare two edges at varying distances.

If your eyesight makes it impossible to use winding sticks, you can use gravity instead. Clamp the board on edge and use a plumbline to mark vertical on each end. Planing down to each line will take out the twist. If you can see them, winding sticks seem easier.

Another option is to make sure your bench is flat, and use that as the reference. If the stock rocks corner to corner, it's twisted. This option is less satisfactory for stock much longer than the bench.

[Stanley Covington]

If I understand the OP, he's saying that because of his glasses and eyesight, it's easier for him to compare two verticals than two horizontals, so using squares makes it easier for him than straight winding sticks.

Other things that will help focusing on two objects at different distances are to step back as far as your shop lets you, and to increase the depth of focus by using as bright light as possible, and squinting. Using squares does not remove the need to compare two edges at varying distances.

Another option is to make sure your bench is flat, and use that as the reference. If the stock rocks corner to corner, it's twisted. This option is less satisfacory for stock much longer than the bench.

I agree with Alan.

I was taught to use two framing squares with the shorter leg (tongue) resting on the board's surface, and long leg (body) sticking up in the air. To keep the squares from falling over, use a "turtle," which is just a short piece of 2x4 or other scrap with slot a tad wider than the tongue's thickness, and tad longer than the tongue's width, cut at the center point (90 degrees to the 2x4's axis). The turtle is slipped over the tongue and keeps the square from falling over. My Dad rounded the corners of these little blocks of wood over so they looked a bit like turtles, ergo the name. He also slopped some handy paint on them so they would not get tossed out by accident.

The inside and outside edges of the body of one square are then painted black (or marked with marking pen) to improve contrast.

The advantages are huge.

Stability: Unlike wood, they don't warp.

Cost & Time Savings: Nowadays, they are pretty cheap, too, so you don't need to spend many hours making delicate winding sticks.

Tool Reduction: You need squares around anyway, so one more is easy to keep handy.

Accuracy: Since the body is relatively long, the error is magnified.

Ease of Use: Since the body is sticking up vertically, you don't have to kneel at all, or even bend over much, which can be a lot of work over a day and hard on the anatomy.

And of course, the most essential tool for detecting and correcting wind in shorter boards is, as Alan said, a flat benchtop.

Give it a try and you'll quickly see what I mean.

Stan

[Chris Parks]

You can do the same thing as winding sticks with two T squares with the leg vertical and the T resting on the wood, make two of those and the longer the better. It doesn't get over the eyesight problem though, something I can relate to. Maybe two frames with a plumb bob in each and the plumb bob could read against graduations on the frame which actually mean something, that would get over the sight issue.

[Warren Mickley]

Many hours making a pair of winding sticks? Warping? Ease of use? I am having a hard time imagining that you have a lot of experience actually using winding sticks. I can't see using a bench top for gauging wind unless you were without winding sticks.

[Derek Cohen]

I've not used square to determine whether a board is coplanar. However my logic - not always my best suite - says that this method is best suited for narrower boards only. While the squares will indeed give you an indication of parallel, just how far apart can you place them before the "gap" between the uprights becomes difficult to read? Winding sticks, on the other hand, may be equally at home for wide or narrow boards.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Many hours making a pair of winding sticks? Warping? Ease of use? I am having a hard time imagining that you have a lot of experience actually using winding sticks. I can't see using a bench top for gauging wind unless you were without winding sticks.

Sorry to read about the limits to your imagination. Best of luck learning how to use a benchtop to check for wind.

[Stanley Covington]

Derek:

I didn't invent the method. At lot of the world uses this method even now. I'm just surprised so few reading this forum seem to know about it. I can sure tell you that the creakier my knees get, the more I appreciate it.

My father was carpenter and used steel squares this way. His father was a carpenter and, according to my father, he used steel squares to check for wind too. He, in turn, learned it from somebody too, no doubt. Nothing new under the sun, right?

Interestingly, there are many books in Japan that deal with squaring timbers, and laying out complicated joints in wood primarily using the steel square and inkline, but in none of them do I recall any mention of winding sticks. Japanese carpenter are no slouches when it comes to working wood, and the fact is that they use steel squares, not winding sticks. Same with sashimono-shi. Right now, someone reading this is taking offense perhaps because they think I am saying their pretty, matched, rosewood winding sticks with ivory inlays are worthless. But that is not the case. I am simply saying there is another way out there in the big, wide world to get the job done, and that it has advantages worth investigating.

So my suggestion is to give a try, Derek. Heck, maybe you'll even like it. If not, that's fine too.

Stan