Can I safely engrave balsa wood in my home?

[James Higgon]

I have my laser set up in my house. I'm after some 5-6mm wood that cuts easily and won't be harmful to my health using my hepa filter. Have been looking at balsa. Would this be suitable? Also looked at alder wood. Thanks

[Gary Hair]

Unless you have a charcoal filter you are not really safe cutting anything with just a hepa filter.

[James Higgon]

Anything? As in wood or absolutely anything? I cut gravograph plastic, can I not even do that? Can I get a charcoal filter for my hepa unit?

[Scott Shepherd]

Not if you're venting it back inside the house. That would be crazy.

[James Higgon]

No one even mentioned this to me when I bought it. I thought this filter was all I needed... Very worried now as I've been doing this for two years in my home.

Can I get a pipe that will go from my filter that I can hang out the window?

[Doug Griffith]

If you've been using only a hepa filter inside your home, I'm guessing you don't use a blower as it would be quite loud. I'd get yourself a decent blower, build a sound deadening box for it, and put it outside the house. Run the exhaust side of the blower through a pipe that extends upwards above the roof line (if you can). Use as few bends as possible. After you do this, you won't really need your hepa filter anymore.

[James Higgon]

Excuse my ignorance but what is a blower

I have the HEPA AD350

[Scott Shepherd]

What laser do you have? Can you take a couple of photos of the setup with the filter and post them here?

Burning most anything, certainly plastics, is not something you'd want to be cycling into your home under any circumstances. I hope you don't have children in the home.

It either needs to go outside or you need the proper setup to scrub it and make it safe of dump back inside.

[James Higgon]

it says it includes a chemical/gas filter

The standard chemical filter contains a multi purpose media to give
protection against the large range of VOC’s (volatile organic
compounds) generated when lasering polymers (plastics) and other
organic materials

It has got a blower i just googled it. Its not that loud as it has a built in silencer. So am i right in thinking i just buy some pipe and connect it to the exhaust and vent it out the window? the fumes will be very minor as they are not visible inside my room

[James Higgon]

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i have a trotec rayjet. The filter has an attachment to connect a pipe to vent it externally. Is it safe for me to cut wood inside if i vent this out the window? i am confident that it will not be venting any smoke outside. Just the invisible fumes that it gives off.

[Rich Harman]

Is it safe for me to cut wood inside if i vent this out the window?

That is how most of us do it - venting outside, not necessarily through a window.

[Dave Sheldrake]

A few considerations James:

Do you just make things for fun and amusement or do you sell the things you make?

In the UK if you are selling / trading or disposing of for gain any item you make with the machine then you are considered an "Industrial process"

If that process takes place in the home you often need a planning variation (for industrial / manufacturing within a domestic environment) and are liable for business rates on the percentage of your dwelling you use.
If you vent outside you are subject to inspection by the local authority or HSE under the "Clean Air Act" to ensure that none of the byproducts are harmful to persons or the environment.
You are not permitted to dispose of offcuts in the domestic waste (as it is classed as manufacturing or industrial waste)
If other persons have access to the location depending on their ages you need warning signs showing the class or laser and radiation hazard signs as well as methods that prevent unauthorised access.
To get fire insurance you need extinguishers placed in locations as required by the local fire prevention officer.
You must retain copies of noted escape routes for persons operating the laser (if you have one door to the flat you are on to a loser from the start)
The items may or may not require CE marking to current standards (if so then you have to keep the technical and safety files for 10 years after last production)

There are a few other considerations.....

It is up the each individual if they decide to follow / not follow the requirements but the penalties are HUGE, including seizure of the equipment, close to unlimited fines , prosecution for various offences (criminal not civil) recovery orders for every item you may have sold in the last 7 years (product recall) and that's just for starters. Similar circumstances came up a while ago with somebody John Bion and I know, the penalties cost the person their house and business.

As to extraction, if you can smell it then it is doing harm whether the fumes are visible or not (Hydrogen Cyanide for example is invisible but lethal within seconds)

The Uk has some of the most stringent laws on *making* of anywhere in the world, it's a minefield for sure.

cheers

Dave

[Dan Hintz]

I have the HEPA AD350

I looked up your machine... it has a charcoal bed, so it will remove the bad stuff from most materials (but not all). If you're cutting just wood, this is acceptable to vent back into your room... if you decide to cut certain other nasty items, this will not be enough. Also, keep in mind that you will need to replace your charcoal bed from time to time, more often the more wood you cut. Once it's saturated, it's the same as having no charcoal bed in there at all, which means you're breathing the bad stuff.

Be aware... these filters get expensive FAST!

[James Higgon]

Thanks for your help Dan. So what stuff should I avoid engraving? Any particular woods etc? I take it the pine stripwood I am using is still a no go? Shouldn't the extractor tell me when the filter needs replacing? It has a light that they say tells you this.

How much life can I expect out of a filter hours wise with wood cutting?

[Michael Hunter]

Pine is one of the cleaner burning woods : if you are having trouble with that....

Do the vent thing - up to the roof or even a bit higher if you have near neighbours.
The laser cost lots - spending perhaps 100 on some metal* ductwork to make it usable isn't unreasonable.
Paint the ductwork grey or black (to match any existing pipework on the house) and nobody will notice it.

* Metal for fire resistance. PVC soil pipe could carry a laser fire up to the roof.

[John Bion]

Great advice Michael re metal ducting rather than the PVC, thanks, I will take that up too.:)

On the clogging of filters (which I do not have): I have to clean my beds on at minimum a weekly basis and my blower fans on a minimum of monthly basis to get rid of all the thick, sticky resins, I would imagine that these would cause havoc in a filtration system?

Kind Regards, John

[Dan Hintz]

Thanks for your help Dan. So what stuff should I avoid engraving? Any particular woods etc? I take it the pine stripwood I am using is still a no go? Shouldn't the extractor tell me when the filter needs replacing? It has a light that they say tells you this.

How much life can I expect out of a filter hours wise with wood cutting?
If you do custom work for incoming customers, make sure you don't cut/engrave anything that contains heavy metals. Someone brings you an old pine board? Make sure it's not treated pine more than a few years old... it could contain arsenic. Some engineered plastics can contain some pretty nasty stuff. If in doubt, look up the MSDS. That is merely one example.

I don't know how smart your extractor is, but can it tell you when the charcoal bed is spent, or just when the filters are not passing much air? Resin-filled woods (such as pine) can clog your HEPA filter in short order, but the charcoal bed is barely touched... high-VOC substrates could swamp your charcoal bed and leave the HEPA filter clean as a whistle. If the machine is basing its "cleanliness" airflow through the filters, it likely won't catch a swamped charcoal bed.

There is no surefire way to estimate filter lifetime as it will depend upon what you cut and how much. A charcoal bed will roughly double in weight when it's swamped, but your machine may make it difficult to check that on a continual basis.


Pine is one of the cleaner burning woods : if you are having trouble with that....

I consider it one of the worst... because of the sap, the smoke contains a lot of heavy particulates that quickly clog fine-pore filters.

[Michael Hunter]

I do quite a lot of iroko - that's dirty! European oak too.

[James Higgon]

Thanks for all your help. So can you recommend a thin 5-6mm clean burning wood that cuts easily? Poplar plywood?

[Michael Hunter]

Interior grade birch ply in 3 or 6mm thickness isn't bad and I understand that poplar is even better, though I have not tried it.

The 4mm birch ply I bought (a long time ago) was sooty to cut, so I have avoided that ever since.

Poplar ply isn't popular in the UK - the nearest supplier I can find is about 60 miles away (Bristol) and the delivery cost is enormous (£135 for a few sheets).

[Dave Sheldrake]

Interior birch from places like B&Q contains formaldehyde Mike

cheers

Dave

[Dan Kozakewycz]

Hi James

I have just this week been cutting some 1/4" (6mm) balsa with my 40w Speedy with an AD350 filter. The filter vents back in the room and other than some residual smoke if you open the cabinet too soon after the end of the cut, there doesn't seem to be any issue with it.

Same with up to 1/8" (3mm) plywood. It's all 'model making' grade wood so I assume intended for laser processing and free of any harmful additives as a result.

[Michael Hunter]

[QUOTE=Dave Sheldrake;2286902]Interior birch from places like B&Q contains formaldehyde Mike

I don't buy from B&Q!!!!!

(All wood - including the real stuff straight from the trees - contains formaldehyde : it is a natural ingredient of living things)


PS B&Q only know one word beginning with "Q" and that word isn't "Quality" (it's Quail). They haven't heard of "Consistency of Supply" either.

[Ernest Martin]

Just my 10 cents unless you have a filter system that is specifically made to filter back into a room, while cutting your type of material, (some filters are only made for wood not plastics) I would vent it to the outside. I don't want to sound like a health nut, but coming from the emergency service you gather some things. If your not comfortable putting a vent in your wall, most home handy men could put one in, in about 1-2 hours depending on how elaborate. If your putting your hose in the window take the time to make a box or frame, like the picture below to keep the smoke and fumes from coming back inside. Good look with your engraving.
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[Dan Kozakewycz]

The BOFA unit both I and the OP have was marketed to me as being suitable to vent back in to the room. I explicitly stated that this was a requirement and this was the expensive solution I was given.

[Brian R Cain]

I don't know how smart your extractor is, but can it tell you when the charcoal bed is spent, or just when the filters are not passing much air? Resin-filled woods (such as pine) can clog your HEPA filter in short order, but the charcoal bed is barely touched... high-VOC substrates could swamp your charcoal bed and leave the HEPA filter clean as a whistle. If the machine is basing its "cleanliness" airflow through the filters, it likely won't catch a swamped charcoal bed.

There is no surefire way to estimate filter lifetime as it will depend upon what you cut and how much. A charcoal bed will roughly double in weight when it's swamped, but your machine may make it difficult to check that on a continual basis.



I consider it one of the worst... because of the sap, the smoke contains a lot of heavy particulates that quickly clog fine-pore filters.

I know this filtration unit well. How smart the extractor is will depend on the spec the dealer asked for. At one time there was a standard unit, but in recent years, BOFA changed their policy and offered things like VOC sensors as options. Sadly, it's a very competitive market in which very few dealers will explain exactly what you're getting and why you would need it. Leaving out the VOC sensor can make what appears to the uninitiated to be a more competitive quote for a like for like setup i.e laser and BOFA extraction.

In the UK, the market for filtration systems is pretty well sewn up by BOFA and Purex and they have different approaches to how their machines are specified. The Purex equivalent of the AD350 has everything as standard and actually costs less than a fully specified BOFA unit, but BOFA beats them on price if the unit is the basic model without the extras. BOFA filters are cheaper to replace, but this is a red herring because they are smaller and will need replacing more frequently.

There is an issue with both units I wish they would attend to, but are unlikely to address, in that they have combined HEPA/Chemical filters. What this means is that when one needs changing you have to replace the pair of them. To elaborate on Dan's comment about the sap, what this does is condense on the HEPA filter, coating it with an impervious layer of gunk that prevents air passing through. The same is true of plywood where the glue will do as an impressive job of spending your money as my wife does for me. I've known filters require changing with a month of light use purely because the laser was being used to cut plywood.

Conversely, if you only cut acrylic, the fume is virtually all chemical. The carbon does its job by collecting it until it becomes saturated, but the fume has little impact on the HEPA filter. It just feels wrong to me that it's necessary to replace both filters at double the cost than it need be.

None of this is rocket science and a dealer worth his salt would explain it all so you don't have to learn the expensive way, however having said this, my biggest problem as an honest dealer who had all the time in the world to explain everything a potential customer needed to know was in getting the customer's time to go through it all. Most people I spoke to just wanted to know the best price they could get and never had to time to discuss their purchase at length.

There's a lot to take in, in one go when you're new to the world of laser cutters. The best advice I would give anyone thinking about buying a machine is to gather your prices but before making a decision on the cheapest deal, go back and ask exactly what you are getting for your money. I lost plenty of sales to competitors who cut corners on the spec. Some sold machines without air assist or supplied Mickey Mouse compressors to save a few quid on the quote. Unless you know enough to compare and aren't afraid to ask, you're sucker material.

It was ironic in that on an exactly like for like quote, I'd have won every sale there was going on price. My fault was having been a hard-working small businessman myself, on the receiving end of sharp salesmen, I felt I'd rather retain my dignity than be a sharp salesman myself.

Follow the old adages that poor people can't afford to buy cheap things and if it's such a bargain, there's bound to be a catch somewhere.

[James Higgon]

Cheers Dan. Have you tried 6mm ply? I've been giving some some a go today and it seems to be but don't know how much it will hammer my filter.

[Dan Kozakewycz]

No only up to 3mm ply. I expect it will give the filter a workout but I will only be doing a few sheets of it, and it barely runs most of the time anyway as I usually work with anodised aluminium which doesn't really require it.

[James Higgon]

Ah OK Thanks. I do quite well with the ply, but do you know how much a new filter is? I've really gotta weigh up if it's worth it in the long run

[Dan Kozakewycz]

As of yet no, I haven't had a quote for replacement, but I've seen a couple of places listing the combined filter at about $550.