plow plane suggestions

[Daniel Rode]

I've been looking around at the usual places for something to make grooves and such. I very much like the size and design of the Veritas plow plane but the price put it out of range for me. I like looks and size of the record 043. The only downside I can see with the small plow planes in the don't have knickers for cross grain work. However, that's the only real advantage I can find for a combination plane like the Stanley 45. 1/8" - 3/8" grooves up to 1/2" deep would cover my needs. Being able to make at least 1/2" x 1/2" rabbets would be a big bonus but not critical. Drawer bottom grooves and frame and panel grooves are the most common uses I'm envisioning.

I don't really have my mind sent on any particular solution. I'd happily consider a wooden plow or a vintage metal combination or whatever. Mostly I need it to be cheap. I don't need a plow or grooving plane. I want one so I can avoid using my router table more often.

As I look at eBay and the antique dealers, I'm shocked at the prices. $100 and up with some going for $1000! Most that look usable with a couple cutters were over $150. Is this really what they go for?

I had assumed I could find something in the $50-$75 range in user condition. I'd appreciate any suggestions on what to look for and what I should realistically expect to have to spend.

[mike holden]

Daniel,
Make your own. There was a fine tutorial here not too long ago on making them.

Mike

[Daniel Rode]

Make your own. There was a fine tutorial here not too long ago on making them.
David's grooving plane tutorial? I do want to make one at some point but it's a one trick pony (fixed distance). Moreover, I don't have or want to make the iron.


For now, I'm looking for something that I can adjust the distance and hopefully use different size irons. 1/4" would be the most typical but 1/8", 3/8" are pretty commonly needed.

[Judson Green]

Doesn't have to be a fixed fence, but I guess the width of the cutter is somewhat fixed.

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But, I'd look for a Stanley 45. I bought a lot (4 items) a few months ago for about $90 and with the multiple of cutters (different sized straight and molding) I'm very happy, not a one trick pony.

Edit: Looking back at my own thread I paid $114 for the lot, not sure how'd you determine how much was for the 45

[Dimitrije Stamenkovic]

I have a couple of old English wooden plough planes with 8 vintage irons. They work great. You can find them for much less than I paid for I'm sure, I was in Italy when I bought them and most of the expense for me was the shipping.

Here is one, paid £12+£17 ($50) on ebay

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The big problem with my other plow plane, the first I bought, was that the rear skate was moving under the pressure of the wedge. So it became lower than the front skate and it was basically impossible to use because then I had to set the iron too deep. I've read about this problem on this forum and it is fixable, but I suggest you look for a riveted skate instead of a screwed one, with rivets going through the width of the plane's body: it will avoid you a lot of pain.

To cut rabbets I also have a fillister plane, which is basically a skewed rabbet plane with a fence and a nicker, also works great and it's cheap, I won it for £0.99 on ebay.co.uk plus £9 shipping (totally $17)

[David Weaver]

Stanley 45 will work fine as a plow plane. Try to find one with irons. If you get one decent with a full set of irons ($100-$150 if it includes the box or boxes for cutters, etc and is in good shape), you'll have a setup that you can sell later if you decide you want to use a more dedicated plow plane, or if you find an old woody with its original irons.

[Daniel Rode]

The Stanley 45 seems to be the most common recommendation. Tons of them were made so they are readily available. Irons and add-ons seem to be available as well. Patrick Leach appears to hate the #45 (http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan6.htm) as well as other metal combo planes but the people here who own them seem to like them well enough.

What should I look for in a #45 in terms of condition or missing parts? What should I watch out for?

[Zach Dillinger]

One option to keep in mind is to look for the grooving half of a tongue and groove plane set. They rarely are found together (both planes of the set I mean) and this is a great use for the orphaned groove plane. You can make your drawers with a 1/4-in groove set in from the edge 1/4-in. And a lot of frame & panel work calls for 3/4-in stock, so the a grooving plane marked "3/4" will work for 90% of your needs. This is also why many wooden plows are found with the 1/4-in iron still installed; its the most commonly used size.

A usable orphaned grooving plane will cost you about $10 (and you won't have to make an iron), and many of the same fundamentals of wooden plow planes will apply so getting one working will be good experience should you decide you want a real wooden plow.

Plow planes are not intended to be used across the grain. So the lack of nickers is nothing to worry about. Grooves across the grain are called dadoes and there is a different type of plane for those. Or you can chisel them. Easy peasy.

[Judson Green]

Jim K has a write up in the FAQ section

[Daniel Rode]

Judson, I looked in he FAQ earlier and again just now. I don't see anything about plow or combination planes. Maybe I'm missing it somehow?

[Judson Green]

Daniel, here's Jim's thread.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?116419-Planes-and-a-Few-Things-to-Look-For&p=1176704#post1176704

Here's one I starting asking about them, some good info.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?216885-Rust-hunting-What-to-look-for-in-a-Stanley-45

Guess in the end your gonna havta trust your gut. Mine came with a broken/cracked, but still usable skate and the knob to tighten/loosing the iron was split, I'll upload a picture latter. I didn't know about those things when I bought it and doubt the seller did either.

Guess I'd look for a seller with lots of photos, one that deals mostly in tools or just a fantastic price you can't refuse.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Judson! I must have looked right at it and didn't see it. Old age, I guess...

[Daniel Rode]

Zach, Thanks for the advice. You're right that 1/4" groove set 1/4" in would be ideal for a large portion of what I need. I'll start looking for an orphan groove plane. Have no background with them, I had no idea what to look for. I saw one that was marked 8/8. No clue what that meant. Another was listed as 1/2" with a 1/8" cutter. That made a little more sense but I'm not sure how far in the cutter groove would be (3/16", maybe?).

I'll start looking for a 3/4" with a 1/4" cutter. I always wanted to use a wooden plane, and the cost is refreshing :)


One option to keep in mind is to look for the grooving half of a tongue and groove plane set. They rarely are found together (both planes of the set I mean) and this is a great use for the orphaned groove plane. You can make your drawers with a 1/4-in groove set in from the edge 1/4-in. And a lot of frame & panel work calls for 3/4-in stock, so the a grooving plane marked "3/4" will work for 90% of your needs. This is also why many wooden plows are found with the 1/4-in iron still installed; its the most commonly used size.

A usable orphaned grooving plane will cost you about $10 (and you won't have to make an iron), and many of the same fundamentals of wooden plow planes will apply so getting one working will be good experience should you decide you want a real wooden plow.

Plow planes are not intended to be used across the grain. So the lack of nickers is nothing to worry about. Grooves across the grain are called dadoes and there is a different type of plane for those. Or you can chisel them. Easy peasy.

[steven c newman]

One trick pony about 1860 era292693With a movable fence....$16 at an antique store. 292694 getting ready to make a lot of grooves for a frame & panel chest build.292695It do make a nice groove, though292696 Tongues will be made with a Wards 78. Unless I can dial this other plane narrow enough292697Maybe four passes on each face?

[Daniel Rode]

Zach, Thanks for the advice. You're right that 1/4" groove set 1/4" in would be ideal for a large portion of what I need. I'll start looking for an orphan groove plane. Have no background with them, I had no idea what to look for. I saw one that was marked 8/8. No clue what that meant. Another was listed as 1/2" with a 1/8" cutter. That made a little more sense but I'm not sure how far in the cutter groove would be (3/16", maybe?).

I'll start looking for a 3/4" with a 1/4" cutter. I always wanted to use a wooden plane, and the cost is refreshing :)

[Zach Dillinger]

Zach, Thanks for the advice. You're right that 1/4" groove set 1/4" in would be ideal for a large portion of what I need. I'll start looking for an orphan groove plane. Have no background with them, I had no idea what to look for. I saw one that was marked 8/8. No clue what that meant. Another was listed as 1/2" with a 1/8" cutter. That made a little more sense but I'm not sure how far in the cutter groove would be (3/16", maybe?).

I'll start looking for a 3/4" with a 1/4" cutter. I always wanted to use a wooden plane, and the cost is refreshing :)

The 8/8 plane would likely be intended for joining 1-in stock with tongue and groove. These planes are usually set up so that roughly 1/3rd of the intended width is the tongue, with approximately 1/3rd remaining on each side. So, a 8/8 plane will probably have a 3/8" iron set to make the groove between 5/16-in and 3/8-in in from the edge. I find the 1/4-in wide, 1/4-in in planes to be the most useful.

[Jim Koepke]

The combination planes can be frustrating to use until you get some experience with them.

The Stanley 45 is a very versatile plane. For me the biggest draw back is the largish size. After finding a good deal on a Stanley 50 it has become my choice for drawer bottom grooves.

There are a lot of different 'plow plane' models that were brought to market. Many of them are less cost to acquire than a Stanley 45.


For my dado making, saws, chisels and a router plane can do quick work with better looking results than the Stanley 45. Most of the time my dados are stopped at one or both ends.

Another thing to consider is the Stanley 45 is the most common combination planes to find on the auction sites, flea markets, yard sales and such. Most of the parts are also commonly found. There are a few parts that are hard to find. Some can be bought as reproductions.

Here is one that likely will not get much action, item#141342573870 only has about a day to go. The good part is it is actually two planes. In reality, the #50 is likely worth more than the #45. The #45 is missing the proper depth gauge. It is an earlier type without a fence adjustment. It is also a bit rusty looking. With all of its faults it would still make a useable plow plane. The shipping seems a bit high to me, don't forget to factor that in if you do bid.

You would need to find a few blades which is easy.

If you really want a plane for dados, then you may want to consider something with a skewed blade.

jtk

[Judson Green]

The 45 has the beading stop where the normal depth stop should be and its missing the adjusting screw for the normal depth stop. Guessing the stop on the 50 is in the wrong place too. Shouldn't it be on the skate?

Still it might be a good deal for as low as it is now.

[Judson Green]

Here's a few photos of mine. And what's broken/cracked.

292703 292704 292705
The collared/sholdered wing nut was split. No biggie, I just loosing and tap with mallet. Someday maybe I'll spend the few bucks to get a replacement, but not really that important. This loosenes/tightins the cutters.

And my skate is cracked and very slightly bent, but bent into what would be the freshly the grooved area, so I'm not too concerned.

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Note where my beading stop (on the skate) and the normal stop (on the main body) are.

292709
Arrow pointing to normal stop with adjusting nut. Circled is the wing but that loosens the cutter.

292711
Beading stop on skate. Mine is a 2 larger, able to slid closer to the cutter. Note how the stop is cut out around the iron/mouth of the plane.

[Jim Koepke]

The 45 has the beading stop where the normal depth stop should be and its missing the adjusting screw for the normal depth stop. Guessing the stop on the 50 is in the wrong place too. Shouldn't it be on the skate?

Still it might be a good deal for as low as it is now.

Good eyes Judson. I didn't look that close. It looks to be the wrong stop thought it is in the usual place. Mine has a cut off 20d nail for a depth stop.

Looking at it again it looks like the 50 has been painted.

Neither of these planes looks to be "collectable." That may keep the bidding low.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

How about a craftsman combination plane that appears to be modeled after the #45? Is this one worth a shot? Item 131235484818. Might sell under $50.

[Judson Green]

Looks OK to me. Like the cutters it comes with. I haven't used my T&G cutter yet, but that one has 3.

Might be a good deal. Wonder if Stanley cutters would fit it? I'd think you could make em though if you wanted.

[William Adams]

I picked up a Stanely 12-250 Combination Plane a while back --- very pleased w/ it, just wish that I'd bought the balance of the cutters from Stanley while they were still in stock.

[Andrae Covington]

I've been looking around at the usual places for something to make grooves and such. I very much like the size and design of the Veritas plow plane but the price put it out of range for me. I like looks and size of the record 043. ... 1/8" - 3/8" grooves up to 1/2" deep would cover my needs...


...The Stanley 45 is a very versatile plane. For me the biggest draw back is the largish size. After finding a good deal on a Stanley 50 it has become my choice for drawer bottom grooves....

I have a Marples M44 plow, which is the same as the Record 044 and similar to the Stanley 50, which I would consider a "medium" size between the Stanley 45 and the Record 043. I have small hands and like the M44 all in all, but I'm not sure I'd want to go any smaller. For price, nothing could touch Zach's suggestion of a wooden grooving plane. Occasionally wooden plows with adjustable fences are not too expensive if they are not a well-known name and only have one iron.

292732 292733

[Jim Koepke]

How about a craftsman combination plane that appears to be modeled after the #45? Is this one worth a shot? Item 131235484818. Might sell under $50.

I think that is the Sargent model (1080 ?) branded for Sears.

It did sell for under $50.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

I think that is the Sargent model (1080 ?) branded for Sears.

It did sell for under $50.

jtk

I tapped out at $46.

[James Owen]

Japan Woodworker carries a Chinese-style plow plane with 5 irons (1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 3/8" and ½") for about $65.
I've used mine for around 10 years and have always gotten good results with it. Although there's a bit of a learning curve getting used to its quirks (but nothing like a 45 or a 55....), it's easy to use, and the irons are of nice quality steel and hold an edge well.
Probably the best value on the market today for a new plow plane.

[Daniel Rode]

I've seen these but people seem to complain that there is no depth stop. How is the depth adjusted?

[Judson Green]

Out at the local flea market today, saw two 45's, one of them also had its wing nut split apart. Might be somewhat common, something to be aware of when shopping.

[James Owen]

There is no depth stop other than the operator.... :D

[Derek Cohen]

I've been looking around at the usual places for something to make grooves and such. I very much like the size and design of the Veritas plow plane but the price put it out of range for me. I like looks and size of the record 043. The only downside I can see with the small plow planes in the don't have knickers for cross grain work. However, that's the only real advantage I can find for a combination plane like the Stanley 45. 1/8" - 3/8" grooves up to 1/2" deep would cover my needs. Being able to make at least 1/2" x 1/2" rabbets would be a big bonus but not critical. Drawer bottom grooves and frame and panel grooves are the most common uses I'm envisioning.

I don't really have my mind sent on any particular solution. I'd happily consider a wooden plow or a vintage metal combination or whatever. Mostly I need it to be cheap. I don't need a plow or grooving plane. I want one so I can avoid using my router table more often.

As I look at eBay and the antique dealers, I'm shocked at the prices. $100 and up with some going for $1000! Most that look usable with a couple cutters were over $150. Is this really what they go for?

I had assumed I could find something in the $50-$75 range in user condition. I'd appreciate any suggestions on what to look for and what I should realistically expect to have to spend.


For now, I'm looking for something that I can adjust the distance and hopefully use different size irons. 1/4" would be the most typical but 1/8", 3/8" are pretty commonly needed.

Hi Daniel

One plane to do all? Grooves and cross grain rebates?

If so, forget the LV Small Plow (which is too expensive), as well as the Record #044 and #043. The Stanley #50 I think will join this group, as will most wooden plough planes.

The reason is that none of them have a nicker, which is needed for cross grain planing. Of course you could knife the lines, but a plane with a nicker is simpler.

There are only three planes that I know of that will do the job you ask: Stanley #45, #46 and #55 (or variants).

Personally, I would rather have a couple of dedicated planes than these for all tasks, although the #45 and #46 are good at grooving.

Try and find a cheap Record #044. It's a good small plough, and easier to adjust than most woodies (the weak area of almost all wooden ploughs is the fence, which requires careful set up). Add a rebate plane, such as a Stanley #78, which does have a nicker for cross grain work, and you are set up as you wished.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Derek. I've been researching a bit as well as giving more thought to what I need. I'm starting to lean more toward a record 043. I think a dedicated small plow would cover most of my needs. I can make larger grooves or work cross-grain using other tools/methods.

I can get one in good condition with 3 irons through a dealer for about $85. I haven't seen these in the US on eBay, so I may need to pay the dealer price if I go that route.

As I look at the #45 and similar, it seems that are larger and heavier than I'd like and do some things I don't need. I'll take look at the #044 but it may be harder to source in the US than a similar Stanley. Is the #044 similar to the Stanley #50?

[Derek Cohen]

Dan, I've not used a Stanley #50, but it looks similar to the Record #044.

I like (and own) a Record #043 (actually, mine is a Rapier version). However it is not as user-friendly as the #044. The latter has a blade adjuster and handle for a better grip.

Regards from Perth

Derek