Casting brass

[Moses Yoder]

We used to make our own sinkers for salmon snagging when snagging was legal, not going to get into that discussion. Going through my dad's stuff we found about 5 pounds worth of sinker eyelets which are brass. My mom kept the oxy/acetylene torch for us to use and my brother has the ladle. It seems like it would be fairly easy to get some sand and pour some rectangular ingots that could be turned into hammer heads or shaving brush handles etc. I am not having any luck selling the eyelets and can only get about $1.50 a pound for scrap, seems like the best use would be to make something out of it.

[Doug Hobkirk]

I was trying to figure out what some tools were that I found at a garage sale. They seemed like mason tools, but they were too small. After lots of searching, I found they were foundry tools used in pattern making with sand casts. Or something like that.

So naturally I checked out casting to see what was involved. And I found this data:



Arranged by Melting Point





(f)
(c)


Lead
327
163


Zinc
787
419


Magnesium
1,204
651


Aluminum
1,218
659


Bronze
1,675
913


Brass
1,700
927


Silver
1,761
951


Gold
1,945
1,063


Copper
1,981
1,083


Cast Iron
2,200
1,204


Charcoal Fire
2300



Steel
2,500
1,371


Nickel
2,646
1,452


Wrought Iron
2,700
1,482


Coal Fire
3000



Tungsten
6,150
3,399



Both "fire" temperatures are with forced air, which can be a hair dryer, fan, leaf blower, etc. There are many grades of coal, and the source did not specify, but "blacksmith" coal would certainly seem to be the #1 choice.

Note: As I type this, I am distracted by Sandra Bullock staring at me!

Some people use torches, but charcoal seemed pretty easy. Make a "pit" that has an air access hole at the bottom, space for charcoal, and space for your ladle. If you're going to cast things, you want to get the metal really molten, not just melted. Otherwise it won't flow to the corners of your mold. And it's good to have something to ram the liquid metal into the hole in the mold so the molten metal gets pushed into all the nooks and crannies. My take was that charcoal was more effective to get everything up to temperature.

Your mold seemingly should use a special sand, but I don't know enough to know how true this is. It would seem a coarse sand would require that you spend more time hand-finishing the final product. Several sites showed all this being done with aluminum, and dumping the extra aluminum into cupcake pans to make ingots for future use.

And, of course, you need specialized foundry tools to make your mold!

Moses: I hope you can benefit from the results of my addled distractions.

Goodbye, Sandra. You know I love you...

[Moses Yoder]

I was thinking of (carefully) making a wood rectangle the size of the casting I want then putting some wet play sand in a wood box, pressing in my form and then removing it so the mold would be open at the top, a very simplistic approach which would lead to a very rough casting. The brass would then be turned at slow rpm on a wood lathe with wood turning tools or alternatively taken to a friend who has a metal lathe. I see the melting point of brass is much higher than that of lead, was wondering about that.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

The water in the sand would immediately turn to steam and "Poof!" No more Moses.

[Mel Miller]

Casting brass is not something for someone with no experience to be playing with.

[Moses Yoder]

Casting brass is not something for someone with no experience to be playing with.

This is exactly the type of thinking that prevents me from selling the eyelets on ebay. Since I have not yet had any sales, therefore no feedback, no one will buy from me, thus I have no sales with no feedback. If casting brass requires experience, then there has never been any brass cast. I am very familiar with safety; I have been woodworking almost 30 years now and still have every one of my appendages.

[george wilson]

Your lead temperature is WAYYYYYYY off!!

I did some brass and bronze casting years ago,but had to do it out of doors,so I did not continue with it.

I made a small furnace inside a 5 gallon can. First I made a tapered wooden form looking like a slenderish,tall bucket. I bought some hi temp refractory clay(which was kind of expensive),and mixed it,pouring it between the can and the form. I left a 2" hole at the bottom,angling in so that a gas flame would swirl around the future crucible.

Then I suckered in to buying a blower with a steel tube on it. It had a "special" gas mixing nozzle in it,that turned out to be nothing but a 3/4" latex hose!! This was from Arizona Foundry Co. I'd stay away from them now.

One of my biggest learning curves way back then(40 years+ ago),was learning that only a LITTLE air blast is needed. I had to cover up WAY more than 3/4ths of the blower's intake to get the volume of air down. Too much air just cools the fire down rather than making it hotter. After I got this down,I was even able to melt some cast iron. But,by that time I was tired of freezing or burning up. Spring and Fall are the only decent times here.

I did make quite a few chariot planes,violin planes,and other items,mixing my own alloy from copper pipe scraps and sheet tin I had bought from the museum warehouse. Someone had ordered sheet tin for making lanterns,and that's exactly what they GOT!!! After that,they smartened up and ordered tin plated sheet steel!! I got the stack of pure tin for the price they'd paid in 1959!! I love getting a bonus from other's stupidity!! I'd accidentally noticed it crammed next to the back door in the warehouse.

I made my own flasks,and used Petro Bond sand,because it was the easiest sand to manage. It is oil bonded,and smokes some,but no problem out of doors. Easily re mixed (mulled) with a big wooden mallet,and more oil added after use(or several uses).

So,I have a working knowledge of casting brass and bronze if anyone needs help. I had had the advantage of the guys at the Geddy Foundry in the museum to learn from as I muddled my way along. I could post a picture of a bronze chariot plane I cast,but it needs a good re polishing first. Many got sold to collectors back then.

I'd also made a charcoal fired furnace of larger size. Both furnaces got left when I moved unfortunately. But,I still have several 5 gallon buckets of different sands and everything else. I wish I did have some place to cast metal,but still don't really.

[Judson Green]

You could make a wax, then a plaster mold, maybe a two piece mold or whatever so its ( the mold) reusable. Longer path to get there, but you should have a better cast out of the mold... needing less machining.

Reading some of the safety concerns, its not something I'd feel comfortable doing, at least not without the supervision of a professional/experienced craftsperson. I starting woodworking under the supervision of someone experienced.

[Shawn Pixley]

I've cast quite a few things over the years and really enjoy it. But you're accelerating from zero to 100 very quickly. I would suggest casting small things before you move on to larger items. George has offered excellent advice and while we might quibble on details, I think we are together on this.

You're over thinking this. If you want a cylinder of brass, use a small tomato paste can packed in the sand or a section of steel pipe. Coat the inside with wax, grease or some other homemade mold release. You can also sand cast into a mixture of sand and Bentonite.There are two problems you will encounter.

First, heating. Getting a large quantity of brass (say a Tomato paste can worth) takes a lot of energy. For me to get say 200 Gms of Bronze molten with acetelyne / air torches (3) is a good 15+ minutes of heating if you haven't preheated everything in a kiln, forge or foundry. If you have a Hydrogen / Oxygen setup (like I have access at a shop) it will take less time. Yes, you can get coal up that high with forced air and refractory material (a furnace squirrel cage fan works and as George says you need a throttling device) but it is harder than you might think. The other problems are Shrinkage, Porosity and Oxidation. With the equipment you have you will undoubtedly experience two problems shrinkage and porosity. The metal at the center of the cylinder will settle and not be square across the top even though that was the way you poured it. you could also find voids in the center given the primative equipment. Neither are good news for turning into hammers etc... You could experience voids, oxides of different hardness and impurities.

Given the price of brass right now, it likely would cost you less to buy a few cylinders if you're looking to make hammers (I am). I just bought 2" cylinder 4" long, a 1.25", 3" L and a 3/4", 3" long for under 20 dollars.

If you want to do it for the experience, go for it. But I impress upon you this is dangerous. A liquid at quantity at >1700 degrees is not to be trifled with. Please take all appropriate safety precautions. UV eye protection is a must. You can fry your retinas real quick. Super hot vapor or gas does not do good things to the lungs either. Do not do this on concrete - cast on a floor of sand or dirt. Do not add cold material to the crucible with headed metal in it. I sure I am forgetting some important safety items so please do the appropriate research.

[george wilson]

After re reading the post above,here are a few things: If you use a "coarse" sand,a fine FACING sand is used to line around the pattern. If you are good at it,you can actually make a sand casting that really approaches lost wax casting in smoothness. But,you get the fine facing sand mixed in with your coarser sand every time you cast. Some sticks around the casting,and can be knocked off in a separate container. But then,IT gets contaminated with the coarser sand.

Petro Bond is(was?) used in school shops because it is just easier to deal with. You don't have the moisture content to keep dealing with. You can store it forever,and it doesn't dry out,etc. It doesn't blow up from being too wet,either.

Put a piece of paper bag under the crucible. It keeps the crucible from getting stuck to the bottom of the furnace when you try to pull it out. This is VERY dangerous as you can get splashed if it suddenly jerks loose.

NEVER wear boots. They take infinitely too long to take off if hot metal goes down them. You'll be roasted to the bone before you can remove one.

Wear safety gear over your clothes and a face shield.

Never rest the flask on concrete: It will explode when hot metal leaks onto it. Cast with the flask in a shallow sand box. Concrete still contains all the water it was mixed with. A lot of heat will release the water. This is why you see powdered concrete after a concrete building burns.

90% copper and 10% tin by weight makes a nice,easy to file bronze that is quite strong. If you mix 20% lead in brass,it will be so hard a file won't cut it!! I read this and tried it out. It's true!!:) Rather amazing.

I could think of more,but this will do for now.

[Dan Hintz]

I was thinking of (carefully) making a wood rectangle the size of the casting I want then putting some wet play sand in a wood box, pressing in my form and then removing it so the mold would be open at the top, a very simplistic approach which would lead to a very rough casting.


I am very familiar with safety; I have been woodworking almost 30 years now and still have every one of my appendages.

I will second (third?) the cautions of others here... if you have never cast with hot metal before, have someone show you first. If you attempted what you said above, the mold would explode and throw molten metal in every direction. Unless you have covered yourself in a thick layer of leather, it will burn through your clothes (and down the the bone if a big enough splash got on you).

Here's an example of what metal does when it hits moisture:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=33f_1381134844

[george wilson]

Yabbut,metal casting is not the same as wood working,and funny (or,not so funny) things can happen if you don't have good advice and USE it. Would you THINK to not pour on concrete,or NOT to wear boots? At the first thought,a person might think boots are taller and more protective. I'll wear boots.

Thanks,Shawn,it's been 40 years,and I forgot about the retinas!!:")

You can't make a truly decent open top mold casting either. You need a proper flask,with a reservoir cavity for liquid metal made beside the casting(I'm not using technical terms here for simplicity). The reservoir fills with metal,which the casting can suck up as it cools and shrinks. The reservoir also adds pressure to the pouring of metal so that holes and other porosity is eliminated from the casting itself. This requires you to melt much more metal than you actually will need for the casting. These leftovers can be re melted and used again. The reservoir is usually made by pressing a thin tube of metal through the top half of the filled flask. The top is the cope. The bottom half is the drag. A 2" diameter thin brass pipe might be used to make a small reservoir.

Some metals like zinc boil out of brass when it is molten(The zinc will make snow like little white flakes. The English call it "tutty powder"). You will need to add a bit more zinc to replenish it when you re melt the once used brass,if you want the alloy to remain the same,or if your project has more than 1 piece,and you want the brass parts to look the same color brass.

There are many things to know about casting. It's a whole other technical field. Hollow castings can get pretty complicated.And,everything is not obvious.

[Doug Hobkirk]

Thank you, Moses! What a delightful thread. And it added to my knowledge (I am quite sure I will do this at some point, probably within the year).

[Mel Miller]

This is exactly the type of thinking that prevents me from selling the eyelets on ebay. Since I have not yet had any sales, therefore no feedback, no one will buy from me, thus I have no sales with no feedback.

Lack of feedback is not why you haven't had any sales yet on Ebay. I've bought from, and sold to, lots of new people on Ebay without problem over the years.

[Tom Stenzel]

Does this bring back memories.

When my older Brother was in Boy Scouts, he had an Indian head mold made of rubber. Normally (and for normal people) it would be filled with plaster of paris. Somehow the idea came up of filling it with wax, making a plaster of paris mold of the wax head, and then after heating it to remove the wax, filling that mold with molten lead. My Dad was probably the instigator, I was probably 8 at the time.

All went swimmingly until the lead pour. Unsurprisingly, the remaining wax put out a plume of smoke when the hot lead went in. In the basement, of course.

As the lead hardened and shrunk, they poured more lead to fill in the shrinkage. The crooked line the second pour made is still clearly visible.

I’ve restricted my casting misadventures to making sinkers. Since then both my Father and Brother have passed away, somehow that lead Indian head ended up with me. It’s now sitting on my workbench. Oddly enough, I was looking at it and thinking about that event earlier today.

Without that Indian head, there’s no way I would have remembered that episode. I guess that’s my reply to your other thread, Moses, about having objects to remember people by.

-Tom

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have read quite a bit on pouring metal, and enlisted help from a friend who does it professionally. I still have not gotten the "brass balls" (pun intended) to do it myself. My friend recommended the book "Build Your Own Metalworking Shop from Scrap: 1 The Charcoal Foundry." This guy builds a lathe from scratch, and then uses it to build all his other machines. If ever stranded on an island... Wait... Just remembered that I AM stranded on an island!

Question for George- how do you mix the metal when making your own bronze to ensure an even blend? Do also post pics of that chariot plane, please.

[george wilson]

You can give it a quick stir with a steel rod. Doesn't need much,and I hardly ever bothered to stir my bronze. It seemed to even itself out.

The chariot plane is very tarnished and looks bad. I need to polish it up.

[Don Rogers]

When I was 15, I worked part time in a Plumbing Supply Store. Occasionally I would work with one of the plumbers as a helper. One job was in a basement having a dry concrete floor and the plumber ask me to get the lead furnace and heat up some lead for a cast iron joint he was going to caulk. I set the led furnace on the concrete floor, pumped it up and proceeded to heat up a full crucible of lead. I also put the cast iron ladle on the concrete floor near thee furnace.


When the lead in the crucible had melted it had some dross covering it and I decided to skim it off with the ladle. Big mistake. As soon as the ladle touched the molten lead, there was an explosion that entirely emptied the crucible of molten lead. Some lead covered my grease laden overalls, some splattered on my face, and some got on the plumber and the lady of the house who was just coming down the basement step to see how we were doing.


Fortunately, none of us were seriously hurt, but the plumber was visibly shaken as he said “ I should have told you to put the ladle on top of the furnace to drive off any moisture before dipping it into the molten lead.” I didn’t know any better.


I was not aware of this problem - after all the ladle was dry and it was laying an a dry concrete floor - how could it have any moisture in it. Besides, how could a little invisible moisture cause such an explosion.


It did and I learned a valuable lesson that day. Ever since then, I’ve occasionally wanted to make my own brass and aluminum castings but this memory always resurfaces and makes me think twice about doing so. Molten metal is nothing to fool around with if you don’t have the knowledge and proper safety equipment .


I hope this story helps someone.

Don

[Steve Voigt]

…

Given the price of brass right now, it likely would cost you less to buy a few cylinders if you're looking to make hammers (I am). I just bought 2" cylinder 4" long, a 1.25", 3" L and a 3/4", 3" long for under 20 dollars.

If you want to do it for the experience, go for it. But I impress upon you this is dangerous. A liquid at quantity at >1700 degrees is not to be trifled with. Please take all appropriate safety precautions. UV eye protection is a must. You can fry your retinas real quick. Super hot vapor or gas does not do good things to the lungs either. Do not do this on concrete - cast on a floor of sand or dirt. Do not add cold material to the crucible with headed metal in it. I sure I am forgetting some important safety items so please do the appropriate research.

An excellent, informative post, Sean. One followup question: I have recently been doing some very basic forging/heat treating/ annealing with a charcoal forge (a truck brake drum fed by a woodstove fan). Do I need UV protection for my eyes? If so, what would you suggest?

I sure agree about the price of brass. Once you add up the price of casting materials, fuel, safety equipment, etc, the cost of casting a few hammer heads will be many times the cost of just buying a suitable chunk of material. The head on my plane mallet is 3/4 brass hex and cost me a whopping $2.50. :)

[Charles Wiggins]

I was thinking of (carefully) making a wood rectangle the size of the casting I want then putting some wet play sand in a wood box, pressing in my form and then removing it so the mold would be open at the top, a very simplistic approach which would lead to a very rough casting.

Bad idea. At the temps you have to heat brass to get it melted you'd be asking for steam explosions. Any trapped moisture will vaporize to steam instantly and trapped steam will find it's way out and take a lot of molten metal with it. The only saving grace might be that sand is porous, but with the amount of moisture it takes to make play sand hold its shape I'm certain you'd be in for fireworks.

A better solution would be to use an old soup can to catch the metal. Make sure it's clean and preheat it with a torch for a few minutes just before casting to make sure it is COMPLETELY dry, then bury it in DRY sand almost to the rim. Pack the sand tight. The easiest way to do this is to tape paper over the mouth of the can to keep the sand out and after you bury the can shake your flask (the container with the sand in it) to force the sand to settle. Then top it off.

All that said, as George Wilson alludes to, I don't know if you could attain enough heat with a open flame and an open ladle to achieve a molten state. Those eyelets are probably yellow brass, which is has a higher melt point and is much trickier than the red brass that valves are made from. Also, the fact that they are small with a lot of surface area in ratio to the mass means that they will be A LOT of loss due to dross and burn off.

Unless you want to do it, just to do it, you're probably not going to get much of anything to make it worth your time and effort. If you want a billet of brass to turn you'd be better off buying one.

[Charles Wiggins]

When I was 15, I worked part time in a Plumbing Supply Store. Occasionally I would work with one of the plumbers as a helper. One job was in a basement having a dry concrete floor and the plumber ask me to get the lead furnace and heat up some lead for a cast iron joint he was going to caulk. I set the led furnace on the concrete floor, pumped it up and proceeded to heat up a full crucible of lead. I also put the cast iron ladle on the concrete floor near thee furnace.


When the lead in the crucible had melted it had some dross covering it and I decided to skim it off with the ladle. Big mistake. As soon as the ladle touched the molten lead, there was an explosion that entirely emptied the crucible of molten lead. Some lead covered my grease laden overalls, some splattered on my face, and some got on the plumber and the lady of the house who was just coming down the basement step to see how we were doing.


Fortunately, none of us were seriously hurt, but the plumber was visibly shaken as he said “ I should have told you to put the ladle on top of the furnace to drive off any moisture before dipping it into the molten lead.” I didn’t know any better.


I was not aware of this problem - after all the ladle was dry and it was laying an a dry concrete floor - how could it have any moisture in it. Besides, how could a little invisible moisture cause such an explosion.


It did and I learned a valuable lesson that day. Ever since then, I’ve occasionally wanted to make my own brass and aluminum castings but this memory always resurfaces and makes me think twice about doing so. Molten metal is nothing to fool around with if you don’t have the knowledge and proper safety equipment .


I hope this story helps someone.

Don

I was a sculpture major in college and have done a lot of casting. One time we were pouring aluminum (~800ºF) and we had some left over to pour out into the ingot tray. We have preheated the tray as we had many other times but there was a little bit of moisture in one corner of the tray that did not get chased off and when we poured the ingot we had an explosion. Some of it bounced off the ceiling and showered down on us. I was OK but my partner was balding and got 2nd degree burns on his scalp. The worst part is you can't just drop what you're doing. The metal has to be poured. The instructor took his end and we finished the pour.

We were lucky we were wearing fire jackets. A lot of times in the summer when the newer students weren't around if we were just doing aluminum and not bronze we'd forego the jackets because it would be hotter to wear them than not. With bronze we always had to wear them regardless of the ambient temp because the crucible was too hot to be that close to without protection.

[george wilson]

I might add that melting small pieces of brass is not so easy: The small pieces probably will not melt together because of oxidation on their surfaces. It is difficult to remelt chips for the same reason. I'd recommend adding a liberal amount of borax flux to the crucible before you even start to heat it up. The borax will melt all over the brass pieces,and allow them to remain clean of oxidation,and melt together. The borax will float on top and can be skimmed off before pouring the brass. At least,a hole can be scraped into the flux at the spout,and the brass can be allowed to pour out. Scrape the melted flux out of your crucible just after the pour,or it will turn to hard glass.The professionals at the Geddy Foundry refused a 10# bag of small brass chips I offered them,saying they were too hard to melt.

However,hot flux has a disadvantage: It MAY eat a hole into graphite crucibles.Some types certainly will. I'm not sure about Borax as I never had to use it myself.If so your expensive crucible will last 3 or 4 times before it has a big hole in it.

It has been many years since I did casting,and I did not try melting chips or small,thin things like eyelets. I refined silver using laundry washing soda,and it did a good job after repeated melts,but it ate a hole in my crucible. The silver was in the form of black powder from a photo lab. It was full of chemical impurities which the washing soda did absorb on every melt until the silver was pure. After messing around with it,and having 19# of it,I sent the rest to Hoover and Strong for refining the rest. The crucible cost $40.00. They send back pure silver casting grain. What I did not like was they would not take money. They kept some of the silver,which they took at scrap value(about half price). I'd have preferred to pay money.

You can buy brass flux on Ebay.

[Shawn Pixley]

Yes I would recomend UV protection there. It probably doesn't need to be quite as dark as if you are doing forge welding. I have safety glasses with UV protection. I also have a full safety visor with UV Protection. Your local welding supply place will be able to help here.

The brake drum forges are quite a good way to start. Do you buy or make your charcoal? Given the nearness of my neighbors, I use a propane forge with three burners. I am sure that the charcoal forge might be a step too far here.

[Shawn Pixley]

I was a sculpture major in college and have done a lot of casting. One time we were pouring aluminum (~800ºF) and we had some left over to pour out into the ingot tray. We have preheated the tray as we had many other times but there was a little bit of moisture in one corner of the tray that did not get chased off and when we poured the ingot we had an explosion. Some of it bounced off the ceiling and showered down on us. I was OK but my partner was balding and got 2nd degree burns on his scalp. The worst part is you can't just drop what you're doing. The metal has to be poured. The instructor took his end and we finished the pour.

We were lucky we were wearing fire jackets. A lot of times in the summer when the newer students weren't around if we were just doing aluminum and not bronze we'd forego the jackets because it would be hotter to wear them than not. With bronze we always had to wear them regardless of the ambient temp because the crucible was too hot to be that close to without protection.

Raining molten aluminum - yikes! If I a casting anything of size I wear my jeans under leather welding chaps and a jacket under my leather apron. We always had a large bucket of water available for you to put you foot or feet in if a spark or metal landed on (or in) your shoe. I used to forge wearing boots. It is remarkable how sparks find their way into your boot.

[Shawn Pixley]

However,hot flux has a disadvantage: It MAY eat a hole into graphite crucibles.Some types certainly will. I'm not sure about Borax as I never had to use it myself.If so your expensive crucible will last 3 or 4 times before it has a big hole in it.

It has been many years since I did casting,and I did not try melting chips or small,thin things like eyelets. I refined silver using laundry washing soda,and it did a good job after repeated melts,but it ate a hole in my crucible.

You can buy brass flux on Ebay.

I just bake out 20 Mule team Borax for forging flux. For fine metals (bronze, silver, gold) I use a good jewelor's flux. I will only go up 20-30% reclaimed material when casting. The balance is virgin casting shot.

With ceramic crucibles, the flux doesn't eat it as fast. George, I have never used a graphite crucible. I thought they were primarily used for metal refining? Good for you in the silver reclaimation! I agree they should have done it for money. Sounds just like the salmon canning "deals" out there.

[george wilson]

They used graphite at the Geddy Foundry. I haven't used anything else. There are small little ceramic crucibles for gold,and large,lined steel pouring ladles for iron and steel,but I never did work that large.

I would just use the 20 mule team Borax myself. But,I sometimes hesitate to recommend things I do to others. I would tend to play it safe with them and tell them to buy brass flux.

Ever been close to a 19th. C. borax wagon? I was in Death Valley JUST after we left Alaska in 1957(what a miserable place that was after being used to cool weather!!) Those enormous wagons had tires over 12" wide,and several feet in diameter. Loaded with borax,they must have wanted to sink into the desert sand pretty bad! Artifacts sitting in the desert lasted many years. The water tasted of borax until we crossed the Mississippi river. Even the soft drinks were full of it. Pepsis were bottled in Phoenix. We were used to good,pure cold water in Alaska.

[Steve Voigt]

Yes I would recomend UV protection there. It probably doesn't need to be quite as dark as if you are doing forge welding. I have safety glasses with UV protection. I also have a full safety visor with UV Protection. Your local welding supply place will be able to help here.

The brake drum forges are quite a good way to start. Do you buy or make your charcoal? Given the nearness of my neighbors, I use a propane forge with three burners. I am sure that the charcoal forge might be a step too far here.

Thanks Shawn, I'll dig up some UV lenses.
I just buy hard lump charcoal. Everything I've read says it should be fine as long as you don't use briquets. I'm using pretty minimal quantities, just doing plane irons and chisels, so cost isn't a big issue.
The charcoal burns very cleanly. I was surprised. It doesn't make much more of a mess than barbecuing.
Here's the homemade forge, in case anyone is interested:

292513 292515

[Moses Yoder]

After careful consideration I have decided not to do this myself, but just to take the brass in for recycling. This is the reason why America will eventually fail; modern people value their life more than exploration. The thread obviously is not wasted; there is a lot of good info, and I learned a lot from it. When we made our own lead sinkers we used to run around in bare feet melting lead and pouring it into molds, no safety glasses (we didn't know what safety glasses were) and we are all still alive to talk about it except for my dad, and the lead casting had nothing to do with his death. Nowadays I would have to buy $6250 worth of safety equipment and take out special insurance and have any helpers sign a waiver before casting lead. No wonder I can't sell the eyelets.

[Dan Hintz]

When we made our own lead sinkers we used to run around in bare feet melting lead and pouring it into molds, no safety glasses (we didn't know what safety glasses were) and we are all still alive to talk about it.

This is the reason why America will eventually fail; modern people value their life more than exploration.
If you want to blame the eventual failure of America on anything (and I don't believe this is it), it sounds like luck and ignorance about safety are more appropriate scapegoats.


Nowadays I would have to buy $6250 worth of safety equipment and take out special insurance and have any helpers sign a waiver before casting lead. No wonder I can't sell the eyelets.
As has been said, this likely has nothing to do with why you can't sell the eyelets. The more likely reason is, "It's just easier to buy new!", as already suggested.

If you're truly interested in learning how to do this, then stop blowing it out of proportion and find someone to teach you (community colleges are a good place to start looking, especially ones with art-oriented programs). We're merely trying to prevent you from doing something highly dangerous out of ignorance... learn the right way to do it first, say goodbye to the ignorance, and have fun making custom stuff.

[Pat Barry]

When we made our own lead sinkers we used to run around in bare feet melting lead and pouring it into molds, no safety glasses (we didn't know what safety glasses were)
LOL - making lead sinkers are NOTHING like pouring molten brass. Give it a whirl though. What can go wrong?

[george wilson]

Just don't breathe the smoke when melting lead. I have cast MANY bullets. Wash your hands. Don't suck on the sinkers!!:) Actually,not poison till they turn white.

[Shawn Pixley]

They used graphite at the Geddy Foundry. I haven't used anything else. There are small little ceramic crucibles for gold,and large,lined steel pouring ladles for iron and steel,but I never did work that large.

I would just use the 20 mule team Borax myself. But,I sometimes hesitate to recommend things I do to others. I would tend to play it safe with them and tell them to buy brass flux.

Ever been close to a 19th. C. borax wagon? I was in Death Valley JUST after we left Alaska in 1957(what a miserable place that was after being used to cool weather!!) Those enormous wagons had tires over 12" wide,and several feet in diameter. Loaded with borax,they must have wanted to sink into the desert sand pretty bad! Artifacts sitting in the desert lasted many years. The water tasted of borax until we crossed the Mississippi river. Even the soft drinks were full of it. Pepsis were bottled in Phoenix. We were used to good,pure cold water in Alaska.

Oddly enough, despite living in California, I've never been to Death Valley. I'll have to go. When I lived in Alaska, we drank from a spring. Unfortunately, there was a pungent suphur smell to the water. I'll guess your Alaska water was better than mine.

[Shawn Pixley]

Nice forge. If you want more heat or to drive off the oxygen, get some firebrick or refractory material and build a little house around the forge.

Briquets have clay in them, stay away. Do you have an anvil too?

[george wilson]

I was in Ketchikan,where it rained 13 FEET a year. That much rain is bound to make decent drinking water,as well as cabin fever. Were you near a volcano area?

[Shawn Pixley]

Moses,

I wasn't trying to talk you out of it. I wanted you to be aware of to very big differences between casting a little lead and casting a LOT of brass. Lead melts easily and as long as you don't breathe it it won't damage you much (though you do add to the amount of airborne lead). Brass is much hotter to melt and you wanted to work immediately in big quantities.

When scaling up processes that are well known, you encounter new problems that need to be overcome. Consider popcorn. You can take a pot, add a little oil, some popcorn, apply heat and shake vigerously - voila! Now imagine you wanted to make 15 lbs of it at a time. If you try to do it the same way you do on your stove you will be unsuccessful. Some will be burnt, others uncooked and you have a good chance of a fire. Making beer is similarly complicated to scale up but it can be done as I have done it.

The bigger problem we were cautioning you against is the scale issue. If you wanted to melt and cast say 25 grams of material, I'd offer some saftey advice, but would encourage you to try. What is 25 grams of material? (this is what I cast last week making two inlay medallions).

292525

But going big, first thing... I would encourage you to start smaller and work up to it.

[Steve Voigt]

Nice forge. If you want more heat or to drive off the oxygen, get some firebrick or refractory material and build a little house around the forge.

Briquets have clay in them, stay away. Do you have an anvil too?

Thanks for the suggestion Shawn, I may give that a try. I've been able to get short sections, like the bottom 3" of a plane iron, past the critical temp. But getting a whole file cherry red or orange at one time is a challenge, and I don't think I could get anything up to welding temp yet. Still working on getting the most out of this thing.
I don't have a "real" anvil; just a hefty chunk of wide flange. Maybe lightning will strike and I'll find a nice forged anvil somewhere for cheap. And maybe I'll win the lotto too! :D

Moses, sorry for hijacking your thread. Far be it from me to discourage anyone from making stuff, but it sounds like the risk-reward in this situation is out of whack.

[Shawn Pixley]

I was in Ketchikan,where it rained 13 FEET a year. That much rain is bound to make decent drinking water,as well as cabin fever. Were you near a volcano area?

Sort of. I was on Chichigof Island in Tenakee. They have a natural hot spring there. Yes, you could get water from the rivers / streams. But that was a bit of a hike - 1.5 miles.

[Zach Dillinger]

Actually,not poison till they turn white.

Then you scrape that white off into a bowl to make historically accurate paint!

/Don't do this unless you are eager to get cancer. Lead oxide is nothing to fool with.

[John Powers]

Between lead in keels and custom fittings there is a lot of info on this at Woodenboat.com forums.

[Tom M King]

I had a dear friend, now gone, who taught lost wax casting some decades ago, as well as all sorts of other metalwork. To get an "A" in his class, the last test had to be passed. It was producing a wasp, from a mold the student made of a real wasp, in silver. It gave new understanding to the term "wasp waisted".

[Tom M King]

Then you scrape that white off into a bowl to make historically accurate paint!

/Don't do this unless you are eager to get cancer. Lead oxide is nothing to fool with.

That's why you don't find old white paint from the time of the Revolution. Lead was put to other use. There was an affliction called "painter's palsy". They did the mixing in the palm of their hand with the pigments. Worse was probably the one they used for "blue", which contained arsenic and copper-still the same colorant used for blue eye shadow, and the reason I don't wear it.

[george wilson]

What eye shadow DO you wear??:)

[Tom Stenzel]

This discussion made me go and look at the lead Indian head closely. After the first pour and cloud of smoke, there was two additional pours to make up for shrinkage.

Looking at the casting, it's surprising how much detail there is in the lead especially considering the haphazard way we did it. But it's clear that higher up the casting the detail goes away. So George Wilson's admonishment to create some pressure at the top of the mold held true that day. We needed to build the mold up about 1 and 1/2 inches up to maintain detail to the top.

What you can learn from something that was done over a half century ago.

When I see my Dad I'll make it a point to tell him. We'll get it right next time! ;-)

-Tom