Grizzly vs. Busybee tools

[rudy de haas]

Hi:

I've been trying to get myself to buy some grizszly gear (G0675 and G0690) despite their refusal to take responsibility for what UPS charges their
Canadian customers. As part of that I traced some of the mfg work back to China and Taiwan and then discovered that the
factories sell very similar products to a company called BusyBee tools (busybeetools.com) here in Canada.

Busybee has a very nice store in Calgary, and the people there were very helpful when I was there this Saturday. I saw no important differences between their cx20X line of table saws and the comparable grizzly line. (Note: They have a contractor style 10" table saw on sale right now that's pretty great at only $475 cdn - the riving knfie is not mounted on the carrier and (I'm guessing) won't be used much. But it's a nice machine and the price is right.

However.. does anyone know what the relationship, if any, is between Grizzly and Busybee? and where does Shop Fox fit into the picture?

[Mike Kees]

Hi:

I've been trying to get myself to buy some grizszly gear (G0675 and G0690) despite their refusal to take responsibility for what UPS charges their
Canadian customers. As part of that I traced some of the mfg work back to China and Taiwan and then discovered that the
factories sell very similar products to a company called BusyBee tools (busybeetools.com) here in Canada.

Busybee has a very nice store in Calgary, and the people there were very helpful when I was there this Saturday. I saw no important differences between their cx20X line of table saws and the comparable grizzly line. (Note: They have a contractor style 10" table saw on sale right now that's pretty great at only $475 cdn - the riving knfie is not mounted on the carrier and (I'm guessing) won't be used much. But it's a nice machine and the price is right.

However.. does anyone know what the relationship, if any, is between Grizzly and Busybee? and where does Shop Fox fit into the picture?
Hi Rudy ,I have followed a few of your posts,and finally decided to join in . I think you said earlier that you lived in Lethbridge? If you do, you should consider shipping Grizzly tools to "the border storage" in Sweetgrass. It would be a short one hour drive to big savings. The phone number is 406 335 4040. Our family ships stuff there all the time. Grizzly and Busy Bee as I understand it are owned by two brothers. Grizzly sold in the U.S. until a few years ago when they began shipping to canada also. Alot of the machines are very similar as they both are importers of machinery from Taiwan and China . I have never owned any of their equipment. I t is very hard to find info on Busy Bee stuff,whereas Grizzly is all over forums etc.

[mreza Salav]

The owners of the two companies are in fact brothers. Aside from that relationship I *think* many of their tools come from the same factory (as they look identical). FYI I have cross-used parts from one machine on another and they fit perfectly fine.

[rudy de haas]

hi:

Thanks - we usually just bring stuff into Whitefish (ski resort) but sending things to Montana Shipping Outlet-Sweetgrass can often make sense too. It's only $20 for their service and they have forklifts available.

I asked grizzly about shipping to Montana, they offered to find a store and forward place - and I let them to see what would happen - and they
eventually offered the UPS depot in Great Falls - but no cost change on freight!

As I've said before I don't care who they use and my issue isn't with Grizzly - one customer service rep with Dept of Motor vehicles experience does not
a company make :) - my problem is that I have no alternative to paying whatever UPS asks on on delivery - and no recourse if that amount seems absurd.

[ken masoumi]

I have never bought anything from Grizzly but have heard from other woodworkers that the UPS charges are very reasonable if you fill the importation form that grizzly sends you which is called: UPS power of attorney for entry of a single importation.
It's better to contact Grizzly and get the latest info.
Good luck.

[rudy de haas]

Ken:

My experience with UPS is that the charges are somewhat unpredictable and if you disagree with what they ask, that's too bad for you - your only choices are to pay up (and good luck getting anything back from them) or refuse the shipment. As I've explained elsewhere, this is an easy problem for grizzly to fix but not something I, as a customer, want to have to deal with.

[Mike Chalmers]

UPS seems to be almost as universally distrusted as is Air Canada. Not surprising, they both have the same motto.

'we're not happy until you're not"

[scott spencer]

The owners of the two companies are in fact brothers. Aside from that relationship I *think* many of their tools come from the same factory (as they look identical). FYI I have cross-used parts from one machine on another and they fit perfectly fine.

That's my understanding too.

Shop Fox is associated with Grizzly, and is owned by the same guy, but sells through a dealer network. SF and Griz tools are sometimes similar/identical, but some are unique to the brand.

FWIW, the G0690/691 and the Craftex CX200/201 look to be from the same stable:

http://cdn0.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg500/g/g0690.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/CX200_zoom.jpg

[Scott Rychnovsky]

I will add that I have seen exactly the same type of complaint on a different forum about completely different types of equipment. The only common feature was the capriciousness of UPS charges when shipping to Canada. It makes me think UPS is the problem rather than the companies from which you are ordering. I did not recall any good solution on the other forum except buying in Canada or shipping to a US location and picking it up.

Good luck!

Scott





Ken:

My experience with UPS is that the charges are somewhat unpredictable and if you disagree with what they ask, that's too bad for you - your only choices are to pay up (and good luck getting anything back from them) or refuse the shipment. As I've explained elsewhere, this is an easy problem for grizzly to fix but not something I, as a customer, want to have to deal with.

[Don Quan]

My experience in buying a G1023RLW a couple of years ago was that there were no surprises in having the saw shipped to southeastern Ontario. That is, the purchase price included freight, and the UPS brokerage charge was covered by Grizzly (UPS charged, but Grizzly rebated the charge in the purchase price). The only additional charge that UPS billed was the HST, or only GST if you're in Alberta, but that is a known tax, and not subject to variation by UPS. Lastly, the other factor in importing US purchases will be the FX rate, which is controlled by how you come up with payment (through a US bank account, or through a credit card).

Grizzly cabinet saws have a 1 year warranty, whereas BusyBee cabinet saws had a 3 year warranty. There are times where the landed cost of a Grizzly saw in Canada is about the same for the BB saw, when BB has a sale on. One other factor to consider is customer service - Grizzly has a favorable reputation; BB is spotty and is very likely to depend on the local store staff. If you live near the Calgary store and their staff are focused on you the customer, then you're in luck.

[rudy de haas]

Thanks!

Now that you guys have clued me in about the relationships I understand better.

FYI: here's the breakdown on a basic set of tools:

Busybee Calgary - CT146 contractor saw $475 (a genuine bargain, I think). Two blades (freud, thin kerf, 24 and 60 T ) $110; CX08 8" jointer (same as girzzly 490)
$1,149 (Also a bargain by local standards); dewalt DW735 $545 (better than Lowes, not as good as on-line offers). Total: $2,279 before 5% GST and assuming in store (225 KM from my house) pickup.

Grizzly: G0675 10" jointer/planer - $1150, G0715P cabinet saw - $795, delivery UPS to the door $298, brokerage: first $28 x 2 covered) Exchange at ).92 cdn.
2,438 before 5% GST.

The difference is: Grizszly costs $160 more plus whatever UPS charges may, or may not, get added at the door.

Anyone disagree that the grizzly tools are sufficently better to justify the few additional dollars and UPS risk?

[David Kumm]

If I were looking for very similar Asian hobby machines, I'd pay more for a brick and mortar store where I could check the machines, examine the tables, check for flatness or return if necessary. Price differences here are irrelevant vs the ability to examine what you buy. I'd also take the floor model jointer if the tables were flat. Dave

[scott spencer]

If I were looking for very similar Asian hobby machines, I'd pay more for a brick and mortar store where I could check the machines, examine the tables, check for flatness or return if necessary. Price differences here are irrelevant vs the ability to examine what you buy. I'd also take the floor model jointer if the tables were flat. Dave

Especially considering that the G0715P has had the same alignment issues as the R4512 and Cman 21833....that particular saw is not something I'd want to risk in your situation. Some of their table saws have an excellent track record, but no matter how many times that I read that the issues with the G0715P have been resolved, someone else gets another one with the same issues.

[Wade Lippman]

Anyone disagree that the grizzly tools are sufficently better to justify the few additional dollars and UPS risk?

It would certainly be worth $160 to me to have them delivered. That assumes they are the same tools.
I used to import from China and a factory's price depended on the tolerances specified. It is a lot cheaper to make parts that sorta fit than to make them that fit precisely; or to use thinner steel.
It is entirely possible that Busy Bee buys better tools than Grizzly from the same factory that look identical.
But of course it is also possible that Grizzlys are better, that they are in fact identical. I sure don't know.

[Rick Fisher]

The biggest consideration for a Canadian is CSA .. its actually an issue if you ever have a fire or similar. Some of the Grizzly stuff is now CSA ... some of the shop fox is too .. All of the Craftex will be due to Busy Bee being Canadian ..

[rudy de haas]

Rick:

Yes CSA certification is an important issue. The saw is CSA certificated, the jointer/planer "only" UL certified. However, as I understand it:

1 - if a product has significant US made components or was US assembled then UL certification is legally accepted as equivelent to CSA certification;

2 - if a product is first imported into the US, earns a US UL label, and then is re-exported to Canada the law as written requires acceptance of the UL label as CSA equivelent provided that the standards are substantially the same and the uses to which the product is put are substantially the same.

however.. this is Canada and the golden rule in litigation here is that whoever has the most money wins - so if you have a fire, your insurer tries to weasel out of paying on the grounds that you used non CSA certified gear, and there are reasonable grounds for thinking that the gear in question caused the fire, you're probably toast if you don't have enough money, and/or connections, to make your threat to drag them into federal court seem credible.

[Simon MacGowen]

Between a local supplier and one involving heavy machines and shipping across the border (from the US into Canada or vice versa), for me, it's a no brainer: I will pick the local store, unless the customer service of the local option is poor. In that case, I would choose other brands and suppliers since customer service is important for me. If you are buying a cordless drill package or a router, it is fine to take risks, but for tablesaws, jointers, etc., I will do my homework (e.g. woodworking magazine reviews, forum reviews, etc.) and focus on the quality machines.

Most of the power machines are made in China or Taiwan, regardless of their brands (even top quality and reputed SawStop tablesaws are imported from Taiwan but their quality is second to none, not to mention its safety uniqueness) -- Festools of course are from Germany but may not have the machines you want. Ridgid jointers from Home Depot have earned consistently excellent reviews from customers and I think it's from China. The newer Ridgid tablesaws, I heard, do not seem to be as good as the old ones sold five years ago or so.

You get what you pay for is largely true for woodworking machines if you do your homework.

Simon

[rudy de haas]

Thanks, everyone

I've gone ahead and ordered both a G0675 jointer/planer and a smaller saw - the G0715P. They tell me they're out of stock on the
jointer until about mid August, so I'll file something here in September on what happened with unpacking etc.

In the end the convincing argument for me was that these tools will get very little usage and selling them when I'm done with them will be much easier
if they are branded "Grizzly" than "craftex".

[Wade Lippman]

however.. this is Canada and the golden rule in litigation here is that whoever has the most money wins - so if you have a fire, your insurer tries to weasel out of paying on the grounds that you used non CSA certified gear, and there are reasonable grounds for thinking that the gear in question caused the fire, you're probably toast if you don't have enough money, and/or connections, to make your threat to drag them into federal court seem credible.

I challenge you to find a single example where this has happened. They would certainly have to show that your machine caused the fire. (can you find a single example of that, from a properly maintained machine?) They would then have to show that it didn't meet CSA, and that deficiency was responsible for the fire. And finally they would have to show that you were negligent in not using a CSA machine.

It is probably not something you should consider in choosing machines.

[mreza Salav]

Between BB and Grizzly (which seem identical to me) I'd pick the BB, local, longer warranty, no cross-border hassle, no CSA worries (and no UL is not a replacement for CSA), etc.

[Rick Fisher]

UL is not an alternative to CSA .. that is a myth .. The USA has much lower electrical safety standards than Canada. ( although probably more reasonable ) ..

(UL)c is acceptable in Canada. UL is not. Its not a grey area, its not vague.. its simply illegal and can cost you a bundle.. I have been busted and was given 72 hours to dispose or they threatened to cut off hydro.. no joke.

I would call the local electrical inspector prior to assuming you know the drill.. Money and "oh I thought" means nothing.

Its actually quite a big deal ... Festool just went through a pretty big fiasco with vacuum's in
Canada, they chose to pay to replace them all with new ones.

If your caught with non-csa machinery, you can pay a private inspector to inspect a machine .. It starts at about $200 and the machine has to actually pass. It can cost more than the machine is worth on cheaper Asian machinery..

The worst thing about non-csa machinery is that if you sell the tool .. or even give it away .. and the person has a shop fire.. even if they cannot prove it was that particular machine.. your liable.. You placed unsafe electrical machinery in their shop.. The legal assumption in Canada is that the unsafe machine could have caused the fire...

[Rick Potter]

Just curious,

What differences would there be between a US/UL Grizzly saw, and a Canadian/CSA Busy Bee saw, assuming they were the same saw, different labels?

Rick Potter

[rudy de haas]

The saw is CSA certified - and there isn't any except in terms of price.

[rudy de haas]

Law vs reality

The law on this is, I think, quite clear - but so is reality. The law accepts the American standard, but the reality is that I don't have the money to fight
the CSA - and am not dumb enough to try.

[Steve Bansee]

Rudy,
The fees are not that bad. I'm in Winnipeg, and this month I got a G0513X2 bandsaw from Grizzly.
This is what I got charged.
From Grizzly: $1050 US for the Bandsaw, plus $149 US Shipping, plus $34 US for liftgate service, minus $28 (discount for brokerage fee).
When the saw arrived in Canada, UPS Freight called and I paid the taxes. $155 CDN. No other fees where paid on delivery.

Steve

[Wade Lippman]

(UL)c is acceptable in Canada. UL is not. Its not a grey area, its not vague.. its simply illegal and can cost you a bundle.. I have been busted and was given 72 hours to dispose or they threatened to cut off hydro.. no joke.

I am going to make a wild guess and say you were using the machine commercially. I doubt the CSA police swoop in to nail individuals.


The worst thing about non-csa machinery is that if you sell the tool .. or even give it away .. and the person has a shop fire.. even if they cannot prove it was that particular machine.. your liable.. You placed unsafe electrical machinery in their shop.. The legal assumption in Canada is that the unsafe machine could have caused the fire...
Can you document that? Didn't think so.

[Rick Fisher]

Wade.. why would you ask a question and then answer it ... doh ..

Certification or approval mark required for electrical equipment


21
(1) Subject to subsections (3) and (4), a person must not use electrical equipment in British Columbia, or offer for sale, sell, display or otherwise dispose of electrical equipment for use in British Columbia, unless the electrical equipment displays a label or mark as follows:
(a) a certification mark;
(b) a label or mark of a certification agency that is acceptable to the appropriate provincial safety manager to certify electrical equipment for a specific installation;
(c) an approval mark issued under section 10 of the Act;
(d) in the case of used manufactured homes, used factory-built structures and used recreational vehicles, a label supplied by the appropriate provincial safety manager.
(2) An approval mark under subsection (1) (c) signifies compliance with requirements in respect of fire and electrical shock hazards only.
(3) Electrical equipment that does not require approval under the B.C. Electrical Code does not require a label or mark.
(4) Electrical equipment that has not been approved under subsection (1) may
(a) be displayed for not more than 14 days if the regulatory authority gives written permission to do so, or
(b) be used by a utility in its capacity as a utility if a professional engineer has certified that the use of the equipment is safe.
[am. B.C. Reg. 327/2005, Sch. 1, s. 6.]


CSA is not the issue.. (UL)c .. Intertek testing, PQ .. BC Hydro Authority and a whole bunch more tags are legal.. UL alone is not legal in Canada.

CSA is the biggest testing agency, and actually licenses factories outside of Canada to label their products CSA approved. They do regular inspections on the factory and the product ..

A good example of a CSA rule is a red safety stop button.. CSA would require a twist lock.. A red button that would have to be manually unset.. UL alone does not .. A typical phase converter will cost more if built to CSA standards because CSA has different tolerances for the use of aluminium for conducting electricity ... Another example would be having the wiring diagram attached to the machine.. CSA would often require this .. its usually inside the cap on the starter...

A testing agency can be hired to approve anything ... but they won't actually pass it unless it meets code.. and it may not..

[Rick Fisher]

Here is more on electrical safety liability in Canada ..

LEGAL REQUIREMENTS FOR PRODUCT APPROVALBy law, all electrical products must be certified or field evaluated to electrical safety standards before they can be used or sold in Canada. An ESAFE approval meets the requirements of Rule 2-024 – Ontario Electrical Safety Code, and the requirements of all other jurisdictions in Canada.


Electrical equipment is deemed to be approved if it has been approved according to the process set out in section 2 of Ontario Regulation 438/07.
The Electrical Safety Authority (ESA) recognizes certification bodies and field evaluation agencies accredited by the Standards Council of Canada to certify or evaluate electrical products or devices. Only equipment bearing a recognized mark or label is deemed to be approved.
Failure to comply with these Rules or the Regulation is an offence and upon conviction, a person or director/officer of a corporation could be found liable to a fine of up to $50,000 and/or imprisonment of not more than one year. A corporation may be found liable to a fine up to $1,000,000.
ESA also has the authority to order products be quarantined, seized or forfeited to the Crown for disposal.


To gain product approval, field evaluation is a legally acceptable solution for:


Custom-built equipment for special applications;
Equipment manufactured on a non-repetitive basis;
Equipment sold in quantities of less than 500 on a national basis, per model, per year, per inspection body (note: maximum quantity varies by jurisdiction. Please contact us. (http://www.esafieldevaluation.ca/contactus.aspx) for the limit in your area);
Equipment not obtainable as "certified" under a regular certification program;
Equipment already installed or ready for use on-site and awaiting acceptance by the Authority Having Jurisdiction;
Complete systems or subassemblies that are all available for examination and testing during the evaluation process; and,
Other electrical equipment as determined by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.

[Rick Fisher]

Both sets of documents shed some light on "disposal" .. If you get caught with a non-csa or non inspected jointer. You can probably just hire an inspector to tell you how to make it legal.

In a residential setting, its never a problem, unless there was a problem. And then its a big, big deal..

You are not however allowed to sell it .. give it away ... or even technically allowed to dispose of the machine..

[Rick Fisher]

I challenge you to find a single example where this has happened. They would certainly have to show that your machine caused the fire. (can you find a single example of that, from a properly maintained machine?) They would then have to show that it didn't meet CSA, and that deficiency was responsible for the fire. And finally they would have to show that you were negligent in not using a CSA machine.

It is probably not something you should consider in choosing machines.


Wade, That is terrible advice.. Its probably true in NY but not in Canada.. A Canadian Insurance Company will take non-CSA machinery as an opportunity to not pay, every-time ..

[Chris Fournier]

Wade, That is terrible advice.. Its probably true in NY but not in Canada.. A Canadian Insurance Company will take non-CSA machinery as an opportunity to not pay, every-time ..

Our lawyers are every bit as sh!ty as yours. These are hobbiest machines,none of them will knock your socks off but they may just work - buy local so that you can walk into a store and demand satisfaction. Otherwise be prepared for adversity. Cross border adversity.

[Phil Thien]

Wade, That is terrible advice.. Its probably true in NY but not in Canada.. A Canadian Insurance Company will take non-CSA machinery as an opportunity to not pay, every-time ..

Even in Canada the fire would have to have been started by the machine in question.

That is, if a receptacle in your kitchen causes a fire, they can't point to a non-CSA table saw in the basement and then walk away. Even in Canada.

[Dave Zellers]

Even in Canada the fire would have to have been started by the machine in question.

That is, if a receptacle in your kitchen causes a fire, they can't point to a non-CSA table saw in the basement and then walk away. Even in Canada.
To Chris Fournier's point, they can certainly try. And that can scare the bejesus out of a company if that firm carries clout.

This is a fascinating discussion. Is the USA behind the curve (and the times) on these issues or are they holding the line on individual and/or corporate freedom and exercising government restraint?

This is not at all a simple issue of consumer protection. This leads to a much broader issue of the length of the Government leash that a self governing people are willing to allow and whether a leash extended too far can ever be retracted.

[Rick Fisher]

Even in Canada the fire would have to have been started by the machine in question.

That is, if a receptacle in your kitchen causes a fire, they can't point to a non-CSA table saw in the basement and then walk away. Even in Canada.

The way it works is .. Insurance company says "Oh. Illegal electrical equipment ?.... Your not covered.. Then you get a lawyer, and pay experts to prove it wasn't relevant... and fight .. and eventually you settle for a percentage ..

BUT !! You saved $400 on your saw.. .. So there is that..

[Rick Fisher]

Even in Canada the fire would have to have been started by the machine in question.

That is, if a receptacle in your kitchen causes a fire, they can't point to a non-CSA table saw in the basement and then walk away. Even in Canada.

I would agree 100% ... Odds are if most of us have an electrical fire, it will start in our shops.. However .. it is not the responsibility of the insurance company in the case of a shop fire to prove it was an illegal piece of machinery .. They simply have to cry foul and the onus is on you .. Non approved machinery is legally a big enough deal that an insurance company can use it as a reason to ruin the next year of your life ..

[Phil Thien]

The way it works is .. Insurance company says "Oh. Illegal electrical equipment ?.... Your not covered.. Then you get a lawyer, and pay experts to prove it wasn't relevant... and fight .. and eventually you settle for a percentage ..

BUT !! You saved $400 on your saw.. .. So there is that..

Here in the US, tactics like you describe are going to be frowned upon by the courts, likely labeled as bad faith (with punitive damages) if they form a pattern.

I'm surprised the Canadian insurers can repeatedly get away with that.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rick:

Yes CSA certification is an important issue. The saw is CSA certificated, the jointer/planer "only" UL certified. However, as I understand it:

1 - if a product has significant US made components or was US assembled then UL certification is legally accepted as equivelent to CSA certification;

2 - if a product is first imported into the US, earns a US UL label, and then is re-exported to Canada the law as written requires acceptance of the UL label as CSA equivelent provided that the standards are substantially the same and the uses to which the product is put are substantially the same.

however.. this is Canada and the golden rule in litigation here is that whoever has the most money wins - so if you have a fire, your insurer tries to weasel out of paying on the grounds that you used non CSA certified gear, and there are reasonable grounds for thinking that the gear in question caused the fire, you're probably toast if you don't have enough money, and/or connections, to make your threat to drag them into federal court seem credible.

There is no legal requirement to have a CSA electrical approval on equipment used in Canada.

There is a legal requirement to have a Canadian electrical approval, CSA is one of many who provide this certification.

UL is not a leagl certification for Canada, the Canadian UL approval is.

A quick search will indicate which approval agencies are acceptable in your province................Regards, Rod.

[Wade Lippman]

Here in the US, tactics like you describe are going to be frowned upon by the courts, likely labeled as bad faith (with punitive damages) if they form a pattern.

I'm surprised the Canadian insurers can repeatedly get away with that.

No one has cited an instance in which this has happened; much less when it has been successful.

Certainly they can make claims, and lack of CSA might be one. But they can also claim that you failed to maintain your saw properly, or that you kept gasoline in your garage, or lit a candle, or just about any stupid thing. The CSA thing is just one of many.

You will often read on forums that if you didn't get electrical inspection the insurance company will refuse payment on fires, even if it had nothing to do with the electrical in question. No one has ever cited an example of that happening; and certainly not of it being an effective defense.

[rudy de haas]

Things get worse..

So I get the order paperwork for a G0715P and the G0675P and fill in the customs stuff - and then grizzly says that the G0675 isn't UL listed. That means no legal cover at all for use in Canada and so, no deal. Put everything on hold, back to square 1..

What's particularly surprising is that the G0675 is sold in Grizzly's Bellingham store - and not only does Washington State require electrical certification, but grizzly appears to be authorized to use the UL listings label. So now I'm really confused - and the DMV alumnus I'm dealing with at grizzly isn't all that helpful.

Weird: but it gets weirder.. UL says grizzly power tools are listed products, grizzly says this one is not. Grizzly's amazon ad says it's made in the US, but it's made in China (and it is: DMV lady says so, and it appears to be a jiang machinery contractor or ancilliary product.).

Grizzly suggested that I get it here and have CSA certify it - funny! about $10k I would guess, given it's a one-of in sunny Lethbridge alberta a mere 1,700 miles from the nearest CSA office. (I know, a local engineer could provide some documentation, but the nearest pre-qualified is,. I think, in Calgary - and that doesn't allow selling it off when I'm done with it).

grrr...

[Phil Thien]

Just put everything in the shop on a sub panel and kill it when you leave. Let them claim your unenergized gear was to blame.

[Dave Zellers]

Just put everything in the shop on a sub panel and kill it when you leave. Let them claim your unenergized gear was to blame.

I like that idea. I wonder what that would cost.

[Wade Lippman]

Where is the ad that says the machine in made in the US? That would give you some leverage in dealing with Grizzly.
Where is the machine being shipped? Shipping a machine to Canada that cannot be legally used there is fraudulent. Presumably Grizzly knows the law and would not just be making a mistake.

But the big thing is, can the machine be legally used in Canada? I know code sections have been cited, but it is not clear if they apply to this machine, or to use by individuals. It would be prudent to tie that down; perhaps someone more responsible at Grizzly can help you with that. People here saying what they have heard isn't really definitive.

[Frederick Skelly]

Fascinating discussion. I wonder why Canada seems to have more stringent electrical certs than the US? Might have to go look that up.

Rudy, I suspect that the real point of all the push-back youre getting is that folks just dont want to see you fall for hearsay or legends. Its pretty hard to guess what a big insurance company will do or what a judge will say, unless youre experienced in those areas. Im sure not. Id gather the best facts you can and then decide your risk threshold is vs budget.

Personally, Id ask my insurance agent what certs are acceptable to the company and buy only machinery that complies. I wouldnt work it any harder than that or try to second guess.

Anyway, I hope you sort this out soon, get some good equipment and make barrels of sawdust with it!

Fred

[Rick Fisher]

Rudy, you can have Intertek inspect a machine .. its about $200 .. CSA is only one solution..

Intertek is really big .. they do Maggi feeders and stuff like that ..


I would also simply contact the local electrical inspector and ask him all these questions. Simplify it .. I had it drilled into me by an Electrical inspector .. you may as well too..

[mreza Salav]

all this discussion, and I am willing to bet the machines come from the same factory line. You can buy one locally for about the same price with 3-year warranty.

[rudy de haas]

I wish that were true - And if you know how to make it so, it's rudy@winface.com (rudy@swinface.com) and I'd love to hear from you.

I have not found a Canadian seller that gets close to the G0675 on specs or price. Hammer's A3-260 is, I think, a better machine, but it's also twice the price and not currently available in Canada. (I also looked at Rikon 12" , but think it junk.) I've scanned kijiji for six weeks now without finding anything I wanted and could afford (There's a nice Laguna saw in Saskatoon and a Powermatic Jointer in Winnipeg, but they're both too expensive.)

Some jointers and some table saws sold by busybee here are the same as grizzly's products - but even after payiing UPS grizzly's are cheaper.

Right now I'm leaning toward getting a DW735 planer from busybee ($545), a G0715P saw and G0656P jointer from Grizzly (both CSA). After shipping etc, that's still less than getting the nearest equivelents from busybee. I don't have much space and having the bigger jointer with a separate planer will be a pain, but having two machines has to be better than one - and the fact that the jointer is dovetail (the cx08 is parallelogram) shouldn't be too much of a problem.

But if I'm wrong, please let me know..

[Wade Lippman]

I agree two machines are better than one. I looked into combination machines a few years back and concluded they were a mistake.
However, I recommend a 15" planer over the DW735. Might be twice the price, but worth it.

[Rick Fisher]

I agree with Wade on the planers. A DW735 is not half the machine of a floor model machine.

[mreza Salav]

If you think Rikon model is junk I highly doubt you'd be happy with that Grizzly model.
I don't know where in Alberta you are located but here are two decent deals on good jointers and planers. One is a Delta 8" X5 jointer for $800 (which you might bring down a bit) and one is a 15" floor standing planer for $500:

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/edmonton/delta-x5-longbed-8-jointer/585583183?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/edmonton/power-planer-for-sale/1001856993?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

[Derek Stockley]

Hammer's A3-260 is, I think, a better machine, but it's also twice the price and not currently available in Canada.

Is that a recent change? I have an A3-26 that I bought a year or two ago in Ontario and it's a great machine. Before that, I had an import jointer and a DW734. It's definitely not cheap, either in price or construction, and you have to call them to get the actual price of it, which I find annoying. The only part I regret about it is not spending the extra money for the spiral cutter head, but they had literally JUST come out at the time and I couldn't find any reviews.


I don't have much space and having the bigger jointer with a separate planer will be a pain, but having two machines has to be better than one

Having enough space to move around far outweighs the drawbacks if your space is truly cramped. The biggest drawback I've seen with it so far is that since the same knives are doing both the planing and jointing duties, they don't last as long as if you're splitting those duties between two machines. So you need to be a bit more protective of your knives when it comes to grit, dirt and glue. Also ... portable planers are horrifically noisy and comparatively under-powered. A combination machine is a compromise that favours compactness over the convenience of walking up and just using a machine. Because my space is so small, I have to move stuff around to use it a lot of the time anyway so the setup time is about the same for me.

[rudy de haas]

I'm 661 KM from the jointer. Getting it here adds abut $300 to the cost -and that's without my going to see it first - leaving it about the same as a new CX08 rom busybee. (The x5 is a good machine, but I haven't seen this one; and the 80" length is nice to use, but tough to store given space constraints.)

You're right about the planer - planers appear on kjijii all the time and that may be a good machine at a decent price. If I go with separate machines, I'll be watching the Calgary ads closely for something like this - and if I weren't six hours from Edmonton I'd be going to look at this one. He's got a General 6" jointer too - I got to play with one of those and thought it too small for me, but pretty good.

I saw the rikon 12" at a Calgary wood working store staffed by a couple of guys watching soccer. Since I didn't know the magic handshake needed to talk to them I only spent a few minutes with the machine they had on display. Some problems probably came from the set-up (e.g. pulley assemblies) but some seem designed in (e.g.bolt threads on the fence mean it probably needs shims and will go out of adjustment easily). Short and lightweight tables would be ok, but these need to be made more rigid, etc). The grizzly seems much more like the old inca: flatter, finely threaded, solid stops, unobstructed internals, etc.

[rudy de haas]

Sorry - guess I was unclear. The A3-260 is sold in Canada, but an email from scot marsden says there aren't any in stock.