Money in Woodworking?

[Calvin Williams]

Let me start by saying that I don't want to sound like a pessimist nor would I ever want to discourage anyone that is considering venturing into the woodworking business. But, I have been a "professional" woodworker (I use the term professional loosely) doing mostly cabinet work for the last 6 years and the last 3 trying to merge more into custom furniture as that is my real passion. As I do, it seems like I am working more hours than ever before and making less money. Now, I know there are some really great furniture makers out there that are probably making a good living. But, are they the ones that have been building furniture for 30+ years? Do they make their living solely off of building furniture? Most of the really well known guys seem to do a lot of teaching or even run a woodworking school. Is this simply to supplement their income or is it just for the love of woodworking? Maybe a little of both I presume. Let's be honest though, at the end of the day we still have to earn money at whatever it is we are doing. Although doing what you love is definitely a plus. Let me back up for a minute though and give a little background from where I'm coming from. I have been in building trades my whole life. It's all I have ever done since I was 13, now 35. I started doing remodeling with my shop teacher when I was a freshman in HS. After HS I got a job with a local company doing custom kitchens, baths and tile. Worked there for 3 years and decided I wanted to go out on my own. I was 21 at the time and over the last 22 years I have been in all aspects of the construction business but nothing has ever intrigued me like woodworking. From working with my shop teacher always looking forward to running some trim to working for the kitchen and bath company doing cabinet work. It's all I thought about! So, after I decided to go out on my own I basically took on any job that paid the bills from roofing to plumbing and for some odd reason I had always enjoyed roofing where I ended up getting into the roofing business full time where I was most profitable. I guess that's what intrigued me about roofing, it was so easy to make money and at that age I had never made so much money before. Even through my years roofing I still looked forward to doing custom woodworking anytime I got a chance. So, in 2007 when the economy was starting to take a dive and the new construction was coming to a halt and it seemed like the perfect time to get out of the roofing business and build a shop and start a woodworking business. Now, looking back I wonder if I should have just stayed in the roofing business and kept woodworking as a hobby. I probably would have made a lot more money in the last 6 years but I wouldn't have learned as much about woodworking as I have. It has been a great experience and I am always looking forward to building some real "masterpieces" one day. But, at what expense? Cause I surely don't want to be one of those "starving artist". I am in business to make money and doing what I love is just a plus. Still trying to find my "niche" in the woodworking business that will provide me with a decent income and not be just another "local cabinet company". My apologies if I got a little long winded but I would love to hear your thoughts ("hobbyist" or "professional") on being profitable in the woodworking business.

[Max Neu]

I am a cabinetmaker (professional),and I can tell you,building cabinets/built in's is your best way to make a living in most parts of the country.There just isn't enough demand for high end,expensive furniture to keep most guy's buisy full time.I also thought it would be cool to make a living just building masterpieces one at a time,but that dream is about the same as being a prefessional athlete,lot's of people would like to do it,only a few will make it.I have accepted the fact that I will make kitchen/bath cabinets,along with mantles,entertainment centers for a living,and I do still enjoy it,after all,I still get to be a full time woodworker.Even the cabinetmaking business can be tough,I am fortunate enough to be working with some good designers and builders in my area that keep me buisy.Without those connections,things would be even harder. Occasionaly I do get to build a piece of furniture that pay's enough to make it worth my time,so once in a while i get to enjoy the change of pace.

[Jay Jolliffe]

I'm with Max....I do cabinets, built in's, mostly what ever they want. I have made some custom furniture pieces but my living comes from cabinets..

[Albert Lee]

Well I have been making some little money in woodworking, I spent it all on upgrading my machinery and tools. I don't think there is huge money in woodworking that you can become a millionaire by making and selling your woodworks from it. I do it as part timer and I like what I made for my customer, and I like my customer come to me with new projects. it's more of accomplishment than money.

[David Eisenhauer]

It is difficult to earn a decent living off of only your own (one person's) labor - no matter what that labor is unless you are a well-known heart surgeon or one of those $600 p/hr lawyers, etc. Woodworking certainly falls the first category and typically requires that the business owner needs to employ help. The owner (of any business) makes his profit (or "living") in little pieces off of the work each of his employees performs. The bigger the company is, the smaller the piece off of each employee can be if it is in a tight industry. I read somewhere that business's in general don't usually get to the "break even" or "profitable" status until they employ 3? 4? people. The profit off of only having one or two employees gets eaten up by the cost of becoming a business with employees. It is not an easy thing, nor guaranteed that you will make a decent living, to become a business owner. I have often thought that our President's should come from the pool of experienced small-medium business owners so that they could see both sides of the equation - employee and owner side. Stop - I do not at all want to start that type of discussion, it was just an illustration of the appreciation of small business owners.

[Marc Rochkind]

To generalize, it's very hard to make good money doing anything where one is highly skilled (and therefore ought to be paid appropriately) and there are also numerous much-less-skilled people who can easily enter the field. Examples: cooking, photography, landscaping, woodworking, teaching, personal training, acting. Only where the public demands the highest skill (and can recognize it) or when demand exceeds supply can money be made. Examples: surgery, law, computer programming.

(By the way, I'm reading through all the old copies of Fine Woodworking magazine, and this topic was very much under discussion in the early 1980s.)

[Yonak Hawkins]

It is difficult to earn a decent living off of only your own (one person's) labor - no matter what that labor ... business's in general don't usually get to the "break even" or "profitable" status until they employ 3? 4? people.

I guess I got lucky and found a niche in which I can make a living in a one-man shop. I make consumer goods and have one customer.

The definition of the phrase "earn a decent living" is key. Simply being able to pay the bills and live modestly, and not lavishly, is the answer for my wife and me. Fortunately we have favorable circumstances. We don't have a house payment and we get a little bit of ancillary income. Plus, my wife has a part time job.

Bottom line for us : We have defined the lifestyle we're comfortable with and make enough to facilitate that lifestyle. We won't die rich but we get to smell the roses until that time.


After reading some of the other posts, I would like to add :

Everyone would love to make custom designed and crafted fine furniture for great profit but only the best of the best and the luckiest ever get to do that. It boils down to trade-offs. In other words, very few can make a living only doing what they love to do, but you can get close. You can make a living as a woodworker, set your own hours and work for yourself, but it just may not be making the things you want to make. I crank out items by the 100s, the same things week after week, but it's in a woodshop, my commute is only a few feet, and I've got no boss except my customer who's always hollering, "Where's my stuff?" As others have said : find a niche and exploit it.

[Judson Green]

I feel that an added difficulty is that for many of us this (woodworking) is also our passion. So sometimes doing the work that paying clients ask us to do isn't the work we want to do. And being a skilled woodworker has nothing to do with being a good business person.

Edit:

And its gotten more difficult, next to impossible, to complete (price and quality) with both the the cabinet factorys and the guy with no insurance, working on the side, out of his garage.

Not too many potential clients are sold on longevity anymore.

[Kevin Jenness]

To make a small fortune in the woodworking business, start with a large one. But seriously, folks... I agree with the points Max, David and Marc make. Unless you are extremely talented and driven you are not going to make as much money as a furnituremaker as you did as a roofer. Find a niche and be the best in it, be honest and stand behind your work, tool up to be as efficient as possible, and it will still be a struggle. Establishing a relationship with good designers (thin on the ground) can help. The future for small shops probably will include a CNC machine and web based marketing, but that doesn't guarantee success.

If you are not familiar with it already, check out Woodweb.com. It's a site for pros, with an active business forum where your fellow strivers discuss aspects of the question you raise. You may find some helpful discussion there. In particular, I have found Paul Downs' posts quite valuable. He runs a custom conference table business and blogs at the New York Times site about it, including hiring, firing,training performance reviews, profit sharing, buying insurance, finance, partnerships, marketing, sales, etc.

[Peter Quinn]

I had intentions of venturing on my own when the economy went south, maintained my employee status. Furniture quality built ins was my prospective niche, along with the occasional stand alone piece. Didn't happen. I've watched some great local "furniture makers" with excellent reputations and credentials, decades in business, struggling just like the rest of us. Most of them secretly or not so secretly make cabinets as part of their business plan. It pays the bills. Market seems to be coming back up. You need to make connections with designers, architects, contractors, project managers that are connected to wealth clients. Average income clients can't afford custom work, they go for the factory stuff to stay on budget. Some will surprise you, but you can't build a business on surprises. Custom is the realm of the rich, so you have to play in that field to have work IME. Its a good idea to remain open to different sorts of work, but avoid things that are way out of your wheel house if you aren't really prepared to handle the work. That is gambling, which can sink a solo or small shop. Takes double the time you though, fixed price bid your hurting, time and materials the client is tomato faced. How to start a custom furniture business? I have no clue. A start might be making some pieces that show your range and skill, attending one of the fancy home furniture shows like Providence or Baltimore. It will take some investment in time and money, you have to be able to live while no money comes in, almost every success I've heard of had a spouse or partner to cover the losses while they struggled, right down to Sam Maloof!

Most wealthy people have people. You don't get an audience with the client, you get to deal with their people. It can be maddening, at times you may want to give them a solid dope slap in the head...don't. Its against the law, and more importantly these relationships are important to your success. People like hiring people they like, all else being equal. Lots of guys seem able to use a chisel and table saw, doesn't require any real certification here such as a licensed trade or skilled profession like doctor, nurse, lawyer, etc. So you have to spend time nurturing and managing these relationships, while working 70hr/wk making stuff, doing the books at night, cleaning the shop on weekends, or at 11PM, sourcing materials, dealing with strange hardware, drawings from architects that don't actually work except on paper......as mentioned earlier its a lot to go it alone, seems to work better as an organization, but building that takes a set of skills aside from wood working.

Ive been observing the structure at the places I've worked, considering what makes them successful, keeps the money coming in, doors open. Each situation is unique, but in most cases the best wood workers in the shop are not running the business, and the best business people are not making the cabinets. Not sure that helps or applies to your situation, just random observations. Hope that doesn't get my post deleted? I think all else aside you have to put yourself out there, keep trying, don't give up easy. Its not the easiest way to make a living on the best of days, many small shop owners dream of just making $100K end of the year, about the starting pay of a business analyst just out of college for a medium sized corporation. So "comfortable living" has to be put in perspective. Sometimes I'd rather have a larger pay check, but I almost never want some passive aggressive weenie middle manager in a bad tie delegating ridiculous possibly meaningless responsibilities my way, have no stomach for corporate office politics. That part isn't random....I actually lived that in a former life pre wood worker. You are still young enough to make changes and have choices, you wont always be young enough to want to actually get up on a roof, thats a business better managed front the ground! I've been up on a few roofs, there is nothing like peeling a 12 pitch on a cold November morning with throbbing planter faciatus griping your feet to make you yearn for the flat warmth and comfort of a shop job!

Good luck with it which ever path you choose.

[Calvin Williams]

Thanks for all the insight guys... It's all in line with what I pretty much was thinking. Even though I make my living building cabinets and it is super repetitive and doesn't seem to be challenging enough for me. I still enjoy it more than I did roofing. Though sometimes its hard to take that pay cut just to be able to do what you love. I build quality cabinets and it's hard to compete with the guys that Judson mentioned and very few customers are willing to pay what it costs or even know the difference. He also made a very good point about the jobs we do are usually ones we don't really want to do. But, I guess that's what you do when you are in business and have to pay the bills. Lol!! So, I'll keep on working on it but I definitely think it is a topic that should be discussed more often. Thanks again!!

[Calvin Williams]

I had intentions of venturing on my own when the economy went south, maintained my employee status. Furniture quality built ins was my prospective niche, along with the occasional stand alone piece. Didn't happen. I've watched some great local "furniture makers" with excellent reputations and credentials, decades in business, struggling just like the rest of us. Most of them secretly or not so secretly make cabinets as part of their business plan. It pays the bills. Market seems to be coming back up. You need to make connections with designers, architects, contractors, project managers that are connected to wealth clients. Average income clients can't afford custom work, they go for the factory stuff to stay on budget. Some will surprise you, but you can't build a business on surprises. Custom is the realm of the rich, so you have to play in that field to have work IME. Its a good idea to remain open to different sorts of work, but avoid things that are way out of your wheel house if you aren't really prepared to handle the work. That is gambling, which can sink a solo or small shop. Takes double the time you though, fixed price bid your hurting, time and materials the client is tomato faced. How to start a custom furniture business? I have no clue. A start might be making some pieces that show your range and skill, attending one of the fancy home furniture shows like Providence or Baltimore. It will take some investment in time and money, you have to be able to live while no money comes in, almost every success I've heard of had a spouse or partner to cover the losses while they struggled, right down to Sam Maloof!

Most wealthy people have people. You don't get an audience with the client, you get to deal with their people. It can be maddening, at times you may want to give them a solid dope slap in the head...don't. Its against the law, and more importantly these relationships are important to your success. People like hiring people they like, all else being equal. Lots of guys seem able to use a chisel and table saw, doesn't require any real certification here such as a licensed trade or skilled profession like doctor, nurse, lawyer, etc. So you have to spend time nurturing and managing these relationships, while working 70hr/wk making stuff, doing the books at night, cleaning the shop on weekends, or at 11PM, sourcing materials, dealing with strange hardware, drawings from architects that don't actually work except on paper......as mentioned earlier its a lot to go it alone, seems to work better as an organization, but building that takes a set of skills aside from wood working.

Ive been observing the structure at the places I've worked, considering what makes them successful, keeps the money coming in, doors open. Each situation is unique, but in most cases the best wood workers in the shop are not running the business, and the best business people are not making the cabinets. Not sure that helps or applies to your situation, just random observations. Hope that doesn't get my post deleted? I think all else aside you have to put yourself out there, keep trying, don't give up easy. Its not the easiest way to make a living on the best of days, many small shop owners dream of just making $100K end of the year, about the starting pay of a business analyst just out of college for a medium sized corporation. So "comfortable living" has to be put in perspective. Sometimes I'd rather have a larger pay check, but I almost never want some passive aggressive weenie middle manager in a bad tie delegating ridiculous possibly meaningless responsibilities my way, have no stomach for corporate office politics. That part isn't random....I actually lived that in a former life pre wood worker. You are still young enough to make changes and have choices, you wont always be young enough to want to actually get up on a roof, thats a business better managed front the ground! I've been up on a few roofs, there is nothing like peeling a 12 pitch on a cold November morning with throbbing planter faciatus griping your feet to make you yearn for the flat warmth and comfort of a shop job!

Good luck with it which ever path you choose.

Thanks Peter for your reply. I'm "making a living" and fortunately I have a wonderful wife that has a great job. But, I don't rely on her income to support my business even though I have in the past. I guess what I am so curious about is how can someone not have a problem paying a roofing company to come out and roof their house in a day for $8-$10k but doesn't want to pay a man $1700 to build a 3'x7' island that is going to take 2 days by the time you build and spray it? This is an actual scenario that I had encountered btw. Makes absolutely no sense to me. I'll continue to make money but I try to look at things from a business prospective as much as possible and hour for hour custom work just doesn't seem to be as profitable as it should be. I'll keep on keeping on though ;-)

[Phil Thien]

Some difficulty may still be due to underlying economic factors. I don't know if you guys heard the news, but the economy shrunk at a 2.9% (annualized rate) in the first quarter of this year. It is only one quarter, and many economists are blaming weather. HOWEVER, we'd have terrible winters before and the economy didn't shrink THAT much. Some call it a free-fall, 2.9% is a substantial drop.

Ultimately, I really don't feel like the economy ever got the traction needed for a decent recovery after the "Great Recession" of 2007-09.

Custom furniture is a luxury. During boom times there would no doubt be middle-income individuals that have enough spare cash flow that they may consider it. When times are lean, I think the only hope is being very good and knowing a well-heeled crowd.

[Moses Yoder]

I don't believe there is any sense in doing what you love. I think the wisest path is to love what you do.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Develop proprietary designs and skills. This makes lateral price/value comparisons impossible for clients, but if all you do is crank out plywood boxes, well, that's not proprietary work. Read "Marketing To the Aflluent" by Dan Kennedy.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I don't believe there is any sense in doing what you love. I think the wisest path is to love what you do.

Huh? I do what I love. I does not pay the bills, but I still do it.

[Calvin Williams]

Develop proprietary designs and skills. This makes lateral price/value comparisons impossible for clients, but if all you do is crank out plywood boxes, well, that's not proprietary work. Read "Marketing To the Aflluent" by Dan Kennedy.

Thank you.... I will read that ASAP!!!!

[Calvin Williams]

I don't believe there is any sense in doing what you love. I think the wisest path is to love what you do.

Can you not do both? I definitely "love what I do" and at the same time "I do what I love". Does that make sense? Lol

[Ryan Mooney]

And its gotten more difficult, next to impossible, to complete (price and quality) with both the the cabinet factorys and the guy with no insurance, working on the side, out of his garage.

Not too many potential clients are sold on longevity anymore.

This is what amazes me when I see so many folks saying that cabinets pays the bills. I'm not disputing your truthiness but its somewhat surprising when you see cabinets in HD or Ikea for less than the cost of parts for a decent piece (not disputing the quality difference either, but it seems that the number of folks who have any idea about that is in serious decline as well). Is most of the business to upscale custom fit jobs?

It also seems to me that it might actually be harder to make a living at the fancy furniture (or similar) side if you have to. I think there are a couple of problems that you run into here:

if you need to pay the bills you get pulled into things that pay the bills and its hard to have a spec piece sitting for a long time with no dollars off of it.
Its difficult to develop a "brand" if you are in multiple market segments. The most extreme example of this would be someone who sells 2x4 furniture at the swap meat and is also trying to get into high end custom work - image does sell somewhat.

OTOH if you have the luxury of not immediately requiring to make a living (and wouldn't that be nice :D) you have the ability to spend the time to pursue the higher end product lines. Of course as others have noted there is still no guarantee that you would succeed.

[Keith Hankins]

Very interesting thread. I too would have loved to made my living doing woodwork. In my younger years, I did a lot of side jobs working with wood but my main career (IT) paid the bills. For a short time in my early career, I did some production work that was getting very profitable, but it was so much different doing it in a production environment. It was great easy money, but I began to hate the thought of doing it. I even stopped woodworking for a short while.

Now, I'm winding down a long career in IT and have been making a quite a few pieces, and by word of mouth, and repeat customers have been building about a years worth of work at the moment.

I've poured all my profits back into the shop and it is in pretty good shape, so from here on out (god willin) I can start really making some money. However I could not pay the bills though, so I will keep the regular job for another few years(4 till the last kid gets through college).

I recently had a client contact me about making some cabinets so may give it a whirl.

I say if you have the faith go for it. I some times regret not pursuing my woodworking passion.

[James Baker SD]

I guess what I am so curious about is how can someone not have a problem paying a roofing company to come out and roof their house in a day for $8-$10k but doesn't want to pay a man $1700 to build a 3'x7' island ... ;-)

I've been on both sides of this dilemma. I lost my engineering job (due to gross incompetence by upper management I may say :-) ) and thought I would try my hand at custom woodworking. Initially I took any client just to gain experience and hopefully reputation (maybe I did gain a reputation--for working cheap :-( ) . I had plenty of offers asking me to compete with or beat IKEA or Target knockdown furniture prices while using solid hardwood (like walnut or maple). The lack of knowledge these potential "customers" had was amazing. Bottom line was that the number of clients with deep pockets were few and their designers already had relationships with several really talented guys down here and there was no way to break into profitability in the time frame I had before me. After two years I had to give up my attempt (and dream to do what I loved) and look for work as an engineer again (although it left me with a really well equipped hobby shop).

Just before the layoff (which caught me by surprise) my roof started to leak and stain the interior ceiling. I also got quotes from two custom shops for a built in bookcase covering an entire wall of the living room. After the layoff, the roof was still leaking and I found the money to pay somebody to put a new roof on. I felt it was a necessity that could not be avoided. The bookcase of course got cancelled, definitely a luxury. It is now on my list of things to do someday when I have the time. Maybe I gained enough experience in those 2 years as a " pro" to pull off the bookcase, but it is still a luxury.

[Loren Woirhaye]

You must be seriously committed to prosper in an artisan business. Read up on Frank Pollaro and consider the quality of work he and his people do, who their clients are and why. They are not messing around.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Also, if it doesn't seem too dull, consider production turning.

Me, I'm not very good at turning but I want to improve after I get marquetry down. I'm getting comfortable with steam bending, which makes it efficient and cheap for me to produce the curved parts which, when incorporated in decent designs and finished well, impress consumers.

I'm talking about money skills. Joinery is not, really. Dovetails and all that are a "ho-hum" to clients mostly. Sure, they like them if they can get something cool at a bargain price, but in terms of ascending in the marketplace, higher end buyers don't care about joinery mostly. They want "clean". They care about design flourish, finish, details, and the promise of quality.

Doing good joinery is something you should do on principle. Let people know, sure, but be awesome in all other areas as well. With CNC and all that now, there's not much point in trying to build a solo career as a panel processor. It can be done with a quarter million bucks of machinery for sure, but the question is whether you have the marketing mojo to compete at the commercial laminate (3mm edgeband) cabinet level. Read Woodweb.

[Moses Yoder]

Huh? I do what I love. I does not pay the bills, but I still do it.

Okay. A guy has this romantic notion of a quiet morning with a cup of coffee before starting the day building a custom one off wood furniture piece in his shop to make his living. The morning is peaceful, the day idyllic, fitting one piece at a time lovingly into the work of art, carefully choosing grain. This is Jim Krenov; every woodworker wants this I think. Doing what you love. The reality is far different, far far different. Jim Krenov was supported by his wife for many years before he finally became popular enough to make a living. Most woodworkers who start down this path fail in a couple years; millions of them have tried it, I am one of them. Life is far better if you simply choose to love what you do, whether that is production woodworking or being a roofer or managing an IT system or being an engineer or whatever. Keep a list of the pros and cons about your job, a spreadsheet, and really try to focus on the pros each day; write down something that happens every day pro or con, try to make it pro, and see what happens. This is a major attitude shift for most people.

[Tai Fu]

I don't know if there's any Christians here, but I'm under the belief that God is good and not to worry, since he takes care of his children.

Religious stuff aside, if you really think about it there's no easy lunch no matter the field you choose. Of course it also comes with deciding how much is enough for you. If living in an expensive place and having a lavish lifestyle is what you want out of life, then you'd want to do whatever it takes to make the most money possible, then you'd want to be someone who starts and sustains a large business. But then again you need a large capital to begin with and if you don't have it, you'd have to play around with Wall Street (ie. convince investors to invest in you) to get that. You can become a doctor or lawyer, but being a doctor means getting good grade to begin with, and spending close to a decade in medical related studies. Honestly doctors don't make as much as you think, when you account for malpractice insurance, taxes, etc.. Good lawyers make a lot of money, but there are a TON of average lawyers making not a whole lot. On top of that you'd have to go to law school too!

What you really don't want to do is take a job you hate, and end up hating life even if you made some money. I have a customer like that and he's wanting to change his career because of that. Then there's also the skills and background that you've spent half your life getting, so basically you don't really want to spend another decade training to do the job you hate, make some money so you can do more of the things you hate. It is probably better to do something that you love, but more importantly you must be good at whatever it is you're doing. It not only builds confidence (which makes people want to trust you with businesses) but it also sets you above those others with limited skills. Sometimes you'll have to stick to it even if it looks bad. Living frugally isn't difficult and it's a very good skill to have. It reduces your dependence on a high paying job (meaning less dependence on "the man" and spending half your life hating it), it also frees you to doing stuff that you're good at but aren't paying too well at the moment.

So yea, in all trades to make a small fortune, you have to start with a bigger one. But I suspect most people fail not because they failed, but because they gave up too early. Once you're committed, you should not give up. The time to give up is before you committed yourself.

[Jim Matthews]

I recommend that you make a few pieces for demonstration purposes, using reasonably priced lumber.

The focus should be on something only you can provide, rather than copies.
Simplify to the point you can repeat the process and offer variations at additional cost.

My mentor has started a similar sideline, and it is JUST starting to produce sales after two years.
You've got to have something made, to display it. Finding a place to show it is essential.

If there are flower shows, interior decorating displays or any other home fixture expos - get your product on the floor
as a part of some other small purveyor's offerings.

http://dansocha.com/

[Paul Murphy]

Develop proprietary designs and skills. This makes lateral price/value comparisons impossible for clients, but if all you do is crank out plywood boxes, well, that's not proprietary work. Read "Marketing To the Aflluent" by Dan Kennedy.

This is good advise, and along these lines you have to get to know your market area. For you to market locally to the "Aflluent", they have to actually live within your marketing reach. A casual observation is that many of the long term surviving custom furniture makers exist in areas where the well-to-do reside, or have a "summer home". One such example is Maine, with the thirty-fourth highest per capita income in the United States, and a large number of "summer homes" owned by wealthy families.

Kind of difficult to market to the truly aflluent, if in fact you don't actually live anywhere near the sphere of their existence. I think this is the one aspect you cannot kid yourself about, you are not likely to sell much custom furniture to the middle class.

[Tai Fu]

By the way I don't see how roofing is unrelated to woodworking. Granted you're up on the roof doing construction work, but by doing roofing you still maintain your general woodworking skills.

[Judson Green]

Tai Fu brings up a good point. There's many, many categories to what we call woodworking and specialists within a category.

A carpenter who specializes in complicated roofs, set building - theatrical, chair makers, boat builders, outfitting private jets, model makers, cabinetmakers specializing in liturgical work, millwork - just molding....

[Ryan Mooney]

I think this is the one aspect you cannot kid yourself about, you are not likely to sell much custom furniture to the middle class.

That's the essence of my question/point for the folks doing mostly cabinet work as to where their market actually landed. My naive guess is that its somewhere from the upper end of upper middle class and up from there. For foine furniture I suspect that the baseline is perhaps a bit higher on average.

[Brian Holcombe]

Even the most successful furniture makers, architects and designers of the 20th century struggled until they were well into their careers. Many of them found a consistent revenue stream which would support their primary interest of private commissions, which was in many cases was licensing or design work. If there was one career I would like to fallow, it would be that of Hans Wegner, who was a furniture designer who specialized in designing furniture that would be produced by both cabinet shops and manufacturers. He would hand build prototypes and work with the shops at every level of production until the final piece was perfected.

[Denny Rice]

Woodworking as a hobby seems to be on the upswing (seems it has been for about 5-10 years now). I think there is room out there if you want to be a full time woodworker, just maybe by not doing all the work, but teaching others the hobby of woodworking, via the internet. The Wood Whisperer is a good example of this, Marc started out in a small to medium sized shop and today has a shop a lot of us envy. I have heard Marc speak on this subject, and he has said he's never going to get rich by doing this, but at the same time he is not punching a time clock anymore either. I just heard the other day the Drunken Woodworker is leaving his 9-5 job to give his internet business and podcast 100 percent of his time... I still think if I were going down this rabbet hole I would keep at least a part time job if not my full time paycheck for awhile, until my podcast and store could support itself. JMHO

[Bernie Briden]

"It is not the critic who counts. Not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena. Whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood. Who strives valiantly. Who errs. Who comes short again and again. Because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. But who does actually strive to do the deeds. Who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions. Who spends himself in a worthy cause. Who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement. And who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly." Theodore Roosevelt

I say chase your dream and damn the torpedoes.

[Don Huffer]

There are many good posts here. Very telling of the honesty you guys have. Wouldn't it be great if we all were building and rolling in the money. I never saw an avenue to make money in wood without a great deal of hard work and labor. Seems most successful people in the wood biz also have many employees generating revenue. Pay the worker a good wage and charge the buyer slightly more. Add up the slightly mores and you have some income.

Early on in my woodworking I fell in love with Shaker furniture. Thomas Moser was one of the experts on the subject and wrote a few books too. I have built about 20 of his designs. He is an example of someone who took his passion and made a great living doing it. He I'm sure is one of the very few.

http://www.thosmoser.com/

Don

[Myk Rian]

I read the first sentence, and gave up.
You need to use paragraphs. Reading a page of text in that format is impossible.

[Denny Rice]

Most of us here never claimed to be an author...lol
I will try to keep the paragraph thing in mind, even though most texts I post are not even a paragraph long!

[Loren Woirhaye]

high level conversation.

Clients, wanna listen and examine your priorities? We people who do art do it because we love you, and not for the money. Hashtag that.

[J.R. Rutter]

very few customers are willing to pay what it costs or even know the difference.

My first door customer was a large, successful cabinet shop that employed 50-60 people. One day, one of the founders was chatting with me and said that I should not worry about giving them the best possible doors.Instead, I should be giving them doors that the final customer writing the check would be happy with. Actually he said good enough that they actually write the check. That was an eye opener for me, because it freed me from chasing perfection and the extra material, time, and effort that it takes to get from a 90% level to a 95-100% level. I still strive to make a better product that my competitors, but having an idea of what is good enough can mean the difference between making breaking even and making a profit on any given job.

[Duane Meadows]

My first door customer was a large, successful cabinet shop that employed 50-60 people. One day, one of the founders was chatting with me and said that I should not worry about giving them the best possible doors.Instead, I should be giving them doors that the final customer writing the check would be happy with. That was an eye opener for me, because it freed me from chasing perfection and the extra material, time, and effort that it takes to get from a 90% level to a 95-100% level. I still strive to make a better product that my competitors, but having an idea of what is good enough can mean the difference between making breaking even and making a profit on any given job.

J.R. That's about it in a nutshell! Most of the time good enough is good enough! And usually much better than a lot of what is available:)

[Ryan Mooney]

J.R. That's about it in a nutshell! Most of the time good enough is good enough! And usually much better than a lot of what is available:)

Perfect is the enemy of good enough (Voltaire).

[Tai Fu]

You know just an idea...

You can't be the only one that wants to do woodworking for a living. So instead of everyone starting their own business, since not everyone's so well versed in that, why not get together and form a company? That way the combined talent pool could benefit everyone more than if everyone just went and did their own things... Or you know, merge with other freelance/self employed woodworker...

[Judson Green]

You know just an idea...

You can't be the only one that wants to do woodworking for a living. So instead of everyone starting their own business, since not everyone's so well versed in that, why not get together and form a company? That way the combined talent pool could benefit everyone more than if everyone just went and did their own things... Or you know, merge with other freelance/self employed woodworker...


Some people might be able to do that, but for others (like myself) woodworking is a solo sport. Even when I was doing it for a living, I only wanted/needed help was when installing or couldn't lift something on my own. But maybe that's why I wasn't very successful.

[Yonak Hawkins]

Building on that idea, maybe you could partner with a marketing person .. possibly someone to sell your wares at the fair. Everyone has their own expertise and function.

[Max Neu]

Calvin,
From my experience/observations,in the residential trades,the best paying jobs are also the most physically demanding,and will likely put a toll on your body down the road.I know people who pour concrete,roof,lay tile,carpet,and hang drywall can make good money.The problem is,it tears up their backs,knees,and other parts of their bodies.When I was right out of High school,I started working construction,I got a taste of it all,everything from framing to finish trim work.I found an interest in making cabinets early on,and went down that path.If I compare my position now to a roofer,I am probably making alot less money.I have alot more overhead,a shop to maintain,and over $200,000 worth of equipment.But in the big picture,it probably equals out,because I will likely be doing this alot longer than if I was a roofer.I am 41 yrs old,and I hope to be able to do this for another 25 years atleast,assuming i don't run into health problems that are out of my control.If I was roofing this whole time,I would be done working much sooner,and be left with alot more aches and pains.Working those kind of jobs can be like a candle burning from both ends.

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

I am not in woodworking business, it is a hobby for me, but I think you answer on your own question - "how can someone not have a problem paying a roofing company to come out and roof their house in a day for $8-$10k but doesn't want to pay a man $1700 to build a 3'x7' island that is going to take 2 days by the time you build and spray it?" ​Doing a roof is a necessity, no option to do or not to do it. I can find little bit less expensive roofer but still will be in the same range - $10-15K , when as build a custom furniture - it is a luxury, depend on many factors.
Funny, but James Baker just posted same answer.:)
Ed.

[Mel Fulks]

On the roof cost compared to island thing ...I think the cabinet industry has worked against itself. In some cases they even have statistics that say you will need at least two kitchens before you need another roof. Instead of letting magazines and
television dictate styles ,such as "white","dark",why not true custom designs appropriate to the house? Islands are just a current style that will run their course and then be laughably passé. And some people who can't afford an island might buy
an enduring table.

[Tai Fu]

If the roof is bad, the house leaks and everything breaks, so it's kinda a necessity.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Okay. Life is far better if you simply choose to love what you do, whether that is production woodworking or being a roofer or managing an IT system or being an engineer or whatever.

You said, "I see no sense in doing what you love."

I've been an engineer over 25 years. I make a good living at it. It pays the bills. It buys me the tools I need to do woodworking. The wood things I sell buys me beer. I don't love my job. I love woodwork. There is a reason I do woodworking. I love to do it.

[Calvin Williams]

My first door customer was a large, successful cabinet shop that employed 50-60 people. One day, one of the founders was chatting with me and said that I should not worry about giving them the best possible doors.Instead, I should be giving them doors that the final customer writing the check would be happy with. Actually he said good enough that they actually write the check. That was an eye opener for me, because it freed me from chasing perfection and the extra material, time, and effort that it takes to get from a 90% level to a 95-100% level. I still strive to make a better product that my competitors, but having an idea of what is good enough can mean the difference between making breaking even and making a profit on any given job.

When I was in the roofing industry I didn't have a problem with this mentality at all. But, for some reason when I got into woodworking full time, I have a hard time letting things slide. I guess it's because I just don't want any call backs and haven't had one in the last 6 years.

[Calvin Williams]

You know just an idea... You can't be the only one that wants to do woodworking for a living. So instead of everyone starting their own business, since not everyone's so well versed in that, why not get together and form a company? That way the combined talent pool could benefit everyone more than if everyone just went and did their own things... Or you know, merge with other freelance/self employed woodworker...

Thanks for input but I actually do this with other guys in my area locally. I have really learned to out-source more of my work within the last year or so to speed up productivity.

[rudy de haas]

hi:

I'm retired and just starting to learn a bit about woodworking - with no interest in the business side at all. I know a couple of professional woodworkers and the one with the greatest skill ( see www.keithlogan.com ) makes, I think, the least money.

That said, it's quite obvious that there's a hidden market for the use of wood working tools that's not being met - at least, not here in sunny Alberta. In looking at the tools I need it seems that the tools best suited to high quality work are also best suited to high volume work. If I spring for a $3,200 Hammer jointer-planer that machine will eventually become someone's kijiji (craigslist) super find because it will be ten years old and have the equivelent of a week's hard use on it.

The right solution for me isn't available: it's renting time and space in someone else's fully equiped workshop and leaning on someone there for expertise as needed.

When you thiink about it, that's how people like Bach, Hayden, and Shostakovich found time and money to pursue their art - so your income comes from renting machine time and space in your shop to others, your everyday satisfaction comes from helping others learn, and your joy-in-life comes from working on beautiful furniture ( for just enough money to make your insurance payments! )

[Tai Fu]

That's why I said it might be better if everyone just pools their resources, and form a company. Then no one person have to make such a huge investment, and everyone can delegate their responsibilities to make things work, and the combined income might just be worth it. We're not talking Fortune 500 here, just 3 or 4 people could make a difference.

[Calvin Williams]

That's why I said it might be better if everyone just pools their resources, and form a company. Then no one person have to make such a huge investment, and everyone can delegate their responsibilities to make things work, and the combined income might just be worth it. We're not talking Fortune 500 here, just 3 or 4 people could make a difference.

I understand better what you mean now. Good idea! Now just getting 3 or 4 guys all on the same page will be the next challenge ;-)

[johnny means]

Tai, the problem with that idea is that only one person in the company can be the one making money. It's real basic economics, from plantations to manufacturing to service and hospitality, the money flows upward and pools at the top. Five owners only produce five times as much work, five times the revenue, split that evenly and all you have is five one man shops.

[Judson Green]

Not just that, but you get 4 or 5 woodworkers together and you've got 4 or 5 different ways of working wood. Real easy for heads to butt.

[Dennis Aspö]

The way in which (I hope) woodworking will save me money is not having to buy furniture and such in the future, to become more self sufficient.

I am not a woodworker. I am just starting out and doing this as a hobby. We just installed our kitchen in our new house and it's mostly MDF and the like, no real wood anywhere. When the time comes in a decade or two I hope to be skilled enough to build new bench tops from hardwood and also to make new doors and the like from real wood.

[Tai Fu]

5 times the revenue, work, etc. but only maybe 2 times the expense. From that perspective it's already an advantage.

[Jak Kelly]

My step-brother is a trim carpenter, in a very small community. He was located in a larger metro area for awhile, but competing against Mexican labor became very difficult (they only do the jobs most Americans will not do is an absolute lie, but we will not get into that here) it got to the point that he could not figure out how they could possibly bid at some of the prices they were submitting! So he decided to try the smaller community area. He has found some areas where the oil field company's need cabinets made, break-rooms.........they need it fast and usually are not too concerned over the price. But a lot of that work is few and far between. So he must find other things to do for income. He did find a furniture shop to display his stuff on consignment, not sure if any of you have thought about that?

[David Weaver]

On the roof cost compared to island thing ...I think the cabinet industry has worked against itself. In some cases they even have statistics that say you will need at least two kitchens before you need another roof. Instead of letting magazines and
television dictate styles ,such as "white","dark",why not true custom designs appropriate to the house? Islands are just a current style that will run their course and then be laughably passé. And some people who can't afford an island might buy
an enduring table.

I agree with this. Kitchens are "throw away" now. Almost anything that's got cabinets made in the last 40 years looks like a candidate for remodeling, the older, the more it looks like a candidate for it. If you make something disposable, people are going to want to pay a disposable price. They also don't "need" it like they need a new roof when they start finding leaks. There's plenty of time to dicker on price.

My parents have a house that was built in 1924. Whoever built it put built in flat panel cabinets in the house, and subsequent owners painted over them many times. When we moved in in 1985, we stripped all of them and stained them. They still look great, partly because they're integral to the house, and partly because the average person who sees a honey stained oak kitchen from the mid 90s with brass hardware and knows it looks out of date has no clue what to think of a kitchen that's 90 years old.

Parts of it have been sliced and diced to fit a dishwasher, and one side has a countertop that's been changed a few times, but that's it. The dry areas of the kitchen still sport their original wooden countertop.

Would anyone pay to have built-in cabinets integrally built into the house now? Probably not. They'd be worried they will want to change the kitchen in 15 years, which is a foolish idea to begin with, one that comes from easy credit and people who can be made to go whatever way the wind blows by telling them they will need something to fit in. The same type of people usually have no clue about quality, so you can't expect them to pay for quality.

[Val Kosmider]

I guess what I am so curious about is how can someone not have a problem paying a roofing company to come out and roof their house in a day for $8-$10k but doesn't want to pay a man $1700 to build a 3'x7' island that is going to take 2 days by the time you build and spray it?

For two reasons...the roof is considered a necessity; and the island can be bought "custom" at a big box store, built by the Chinese, for half as much money. The roof? Not so much.

And the "average" customer has no appreciation for the quality which you put into the island. They see four sides, a top, and some nice (stick on) finish. Your joinery, quality of materials, and hand raised finish? "Whatever".

[David Weaver]

, built by the Chinese, for half as much money.

That occurred to me, too, when this post originally came up. It's hard to ship a roof from china, and a large part of the price of a roof is probably directly tied to the cost of energy.

[Calvin Williams]

Not just that, but you get 4 or 5 woodworkers together and you've got 4 or 5 different ways of working wood. Real easy for heads to butt.

This would be the biggest problem I would have.

[rudy de haas]

Marc:

I wrote Unix management stuff as Paul Murphy. Any chance you're <EM>That</EM> Marc Rochkind? If so, I still have the book... :)

[Albert Lee]

I dont have a display and I dont have a furniture shop that I work with to have my product displayed, my sell comes from word of mouth or our local internet site similar to ebay/craiglist. I could use a furniture shop or a display stand, but then I will have to employ someone or pay the furniture shop, as soon as I step into that its a whole different game, having quality woodwork is only part of the equation, I love what I make, I am not sure if I will like managing people, besides, I dont have time for that, I still have a full time job.

I think a successful woodwokring business (both in terms of generating revenue and genuine quality product) is a well balanced art, just like any other business.

[David Eisenhauer]

Again, it is very difficult to make a living as a one-man business. Most consignment shops jack the price up a minimum 40% - 60% (or more) and that means you either have to drop your end to meet a market range that will move the product or it sits on the floor long enough that they tell you to come get it. There are many, many one-man shops trying to do the work at way too low a profit margin for the bulk of the businesses to hang in long enough to build up a client base.

For every cabinet/entertainment center/table/chest-of-drawers/etc I built, I must have had to hang a dozen sheets of rock. Way more remodeling than actual cabinet/furniture work out there and remodeling is a crowded industry. Way too much time spent going to houses to meet with prospective clients and working up bids at night after a long day in the shop or at the worksite.

And then there was the guy I met at a " Craft Fair" kind of thing at a downtown auditorium where I was showing furniture and noticed the prices he had on his stuff. "How can you do that work that cheap. I can't even buy the wood for that price." Response - "Oh, I don't make any money on this, I am retired and just like talking to folks so I come to these shows to meet people. I am from Oklahoma and have a budget to travel to a half-dozen shows in Texas every summer so I can meet folks. I budget $2,000 a year to lose on my annual show projects for stuff like materials, gas, food, etc and have a blast driving around to the different shows. A friend of mine that is a foreman at a large cabinet/mill shop lets me crawl through their dumpster for scraps that I use." Great - my competition. Oh well, there were these two sisters that came by to look at my patio tables a few times both Saturday and Sunday................

[Tai Fu]

But in all of seriousness, I don't do furniture as a business, I do luthiery work which I preceive to have more demands. Most of my money (however little that is due to being in a country with messed up music industry) comes from guitar repair or maintanence like fret dressing, setup, and the like. Money's not bad when I have work, and I hear in America the demand for a good reliable repairman is high because everyone wants to build guitars, but not everyone wants to repair them. I find repair to be more rewarding.

I thought of furnituremaking but that's a market I know even less about than guitarmaking. I can get a 10:1 final sale price to material price ratio in guitar builds, but I sure as hell can't get that on furniture builds... I'm lucky if I get 2:1.

[Rick Fisher]

The way to have a million dollars as a woodworker is to start with 2 million, and quit early ..

:)

[Calvin Williams]

But in all of seriousness, I don't do furniture as a business, I do luthiery work which I preceive to have more demands. Most of my money (however little that is due to being in a country with messed up music industry) comes from guitar repair or maintanence like fret dressing, setup, and the like. Money's not bad when I have work, and I hear in America the demand for a good reliable repairman is high because everyone wants to build guitars, but not everyone wants to repair them. I find repair to be more rewarding. I thought of furnituremaking but that's a market I know even less about than guitarmaking. I can get a 10:1 final sale price to material price ratio in guitar builds, but I sure as hell can't get that on furniture builds... I'm lucky if I get 2:1.

You could make a really good living here doing guitar repair. Just as most people I know that are in the furniture repair business do very well. Unfortunately I hate doing repair/ restoration work.

[Dennis Aspö]

Would anyone pay to have built-in cabinets integrally built into the house now? Probably not. They'd be worried they will want to change the kitchen in 15 years, which is a foolish idea to begin with, one that comes from easy credit and people who can be made to go whatever way the wind blows by telling them they will need something to fit in. The same type of people usually have no clue about quality, so you can't expect them to pay for quality.

As I mentioned earlier, we're building a house (https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5314/14530150843_ded4a20c4b_b.jpg) and we just put up the kitchen cabinets (https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3883/14541813081_e5d8e4f316_b.jpg)and counters (https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5521/14358744007_a81039490d_b.jpg), it's mostly MDF and chipwood base.

But honestly, we couldn't afford anything else, gone are those days when a household could be supported on a single income and still afford things like that, nowadays both adults work and still corners have to be cut everywhere to afford things. So we just went with the standard kitchen setup from our house manufacturer. Not just a matter of having a clue, it's a matter of having the means. And lots don't. I hope with time to replace parts with real wood I make myself as they wear out.

[Tai Fu]

Yea I realize repair isn't for everyone but it's related enough to making and not be a crap job. If there is some money in it why not? Plus the repair work helps establish you and get you commissions.

[Jim Matthews]

I do believe that Canadians are the funniest English speakers on the Planet.

[Jim Matthews]

Unfortunately I hate doing repair/ restoration work.

Out on nearby Cape Cod in Massachusetts thrives just the sort of thing you describe.
People will spend $300 to rebuild a mail order bedframe from Montgomery Wards because
it has been in their cottage for generations.

Nobody seems willing to pay for bespoke furniture, unless it comes from one of the known makers
that came from the first classes that Tage Frid taught at RISD.

So the talented furniture makers build kitchen cabinets and remodel bathrooms.

It's maddening.

******

If enough start to make guitars, mandolins and Ouds - will that usher in the age of Aquarius?
How many luthiers are there, anyway?

[Calvin Williams]

I'm really not all that great at repair work nor fast enough at it to make any money. I'm all about learning new things but I would rather "build" cabinets where I know I can make money than do repair work. You're right, it does help get commissions though.

[David Weaver]

As I mentioned earlier, we're building a house (https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5314/14530150843_ded4a20c4b_b.jpg) and we just put up the kitchen cabinets (https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3883/14541813081_e5d8e4f316_b.jpg)and counters (https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5521/14358744007_a81039490d_b.jpg), it's mostly MDF and chipwood base.

But honestly, we couldn't afford anything else, gone are those days when a household could be supported on a single income and still afford things like that, nowadays both adults work and still corners have to be cut everywhere to afford things. So we just went with the standard kitchen setup from our house manufacturer. Not just a matter of having a clue, it's a matter of having the means. And lots don't. I hope with time to replace parts with real wood I make myself as they wear out.

I think if you're going to go with a throw out kitchen, going with inexpensive is a good idea. Can't argue with the route you've taken. If you wanted to make something more permanent, you could do it as you go along.

Wife and I know plenty of people in an average 2500 sq foot house here who have had their kitchens done twice in the last 25 years, and the last iteration cost in the realm of $75k (a large part of that being in appliances and fixtures). They are under the false impression that they've added $75k of value to their house at a future sale. Their kitchens are fantastic looking, I'll admit. I just don't know what the future brings and can't imagine spending that without getting something permanent and timeless to the house.

[Duane Meadows]

I think if you're going to go with a throw out kitchen, going with inexpensive is a good idea. Can't argue with the route you've taken. If you wanted to make something more permanent, you could do it as you go along.

Wife and I know plenty of people in an average 2500 sq foot house here who have had their kitchens done twice in the last 25 years, and the last iteration cost in the realm of $75k (a large part of that being in appliances and fixtures). They are under the false impression that they've added $75k of value to their house at a future sale. Their kitchens are fantastic looking, I'll admit. I just don't know what the future brings and can't imagine spending that without getting something permanent and timeless to the house.

Even if they are correct, $75,000 added value for $75,000 spent is $0.00 return on investment! Unlikely they will see that much return. If property values go up, they will likely go up anyway unless the kitchen is just trashed.

I just remodeled our kitchen last summer. We have twice(nearly triple probably) the cabinetry we had. Its all solid oak FF and doors, with oak plywood carcasses, poplar drawers. We spent less than $3000 including hardware, no appliances though.

I think for $75K, I'd build a new shop!

So, to the OP's question is there money in woodworking? Don't know, but there sure can be savings in it:D.

[Greg Portland]

build a shop and start a woodworking business.That's your first mistake. If you want to make and sell 1-off pieces of furniture you should be working in a "studio".

[Mel Fulks]

Well, kitchen cabinets are largely "one off" jobs ,that's why there are so many expensive soft ware options. None of which I 've seen work well. I do not deny that some shops have found them useful,but we had a local company spend 20 million on a high tech factory and then fail.