Reselling or giving away PURCHASED Woodworking Plans

[dirk martin]

I was up on Woodstore.Net, and I saw some plans for some simple woodworking projects. Very affordable.
I have a friend that wants to purchase from me everything neccessary for him to build a back yard bench in Cedar. Plans, wood, and hardware.

If I buy the plans for such a bench, from Woodstore (or anywhere else for that matter), do you all think there's any legal issues with me including those plans with the wood and hardware kit I sell my friend?

To be clear, my plan is to contact Woodstore.Net next week, but I'm just wanted to open this subject here for discussion sake.

Since I will buy the plan from Woodstore, I would think I could include the building/assembly plan with my kit. I wouldn't include a photo copy...but instead, the original plan that I purchased. And, if for some reason I wanted to sell a 2nd one of these kits, I'd buy a 2nd set of plans from Woodstore. I could just tell my friend to go to Woodstore and buy the plans himself, but I was curious if anyone thought there could be something illegal about me 'reselling', or 'giving away' the plans I purchased. It seems to me that as long as I'm not circumventing Woodstore's revenue stream (and in a way I'd think I'm enhancing it), everything is fine.

Feedback?

[James Tibbetts]

I think you're fine. You buy the plans they are yours; burn 'em, toss 'em; give 'em away; whatever you want. I see no problem with passing along the cost of the plans either; it's part of the cost of the kit. I would have an issue with duplicating the plan and charging for that, and keeping the originals.

[dirk martin]

That's what I thought, too.
I'm not looking to violate any rights of the maker of the plans. They are indeed cheap enough, so I have no problem buying them. I've always thought most plans that folks sell, are quite cheap, for what you get. But, I don't have the 'mind' to make plans....so I have no inclination of making my own.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Same as selling a used book. A published hard copy is your property and you can sell it.

[Jim Becker]

As already stated, you should be fine giving away/selling the original plans you purchased. What wouldn't likely be kosher is giving away/selling a copy of those plans...or keeping a copy for yourself if you sell/give away the original...

[Dave Zellers]

Same as selling a used book. A published hard copy is your property and you can sell it.
Good example. The only issue, which the OP already addressed, would be reproducing it and selling the copies. Buying each copy that you re-sell is not a problem. AFAIK.

[Dan Hintz]

The opinions expressed so far are reasonable, but the only one who can give you a definitive answer is Woodstore. They should have a TOS for their plans, and if they were forward thinking, would have included such a clause in it.

[Dave Richards]

Dan has the best answer.

If you plan to sell multiple copies of your kit, you might ask Woodstore about the possibility of buying multiple copies of the plans. Or maybe they'd give you a batch of download codes so you could supply one with each kit. Your customer could then buy your kit and download the plans from Woodstore. Saves you printing them and keeps things on the up and up with Woodstore. They might offer you a discount on the plans, too.

[Keith Weber]

If you purchase property, it is yours to sell providing you don't copy it. I wouldn't even bother asking Woodstore -- they have no legal rights to say that you couldn't sell it. The only way that they'd possibly have a say in the matter is if they made you sign a contract that said that you were not allowed to. If you didn't sign a contract, then you're good.

[Dan Hintz]

If you purchase property, it is yours to sell providing you don't copy it. I wouldn't even bother asking Woodstore -- they have no legal rights to say that you couldn't sell it. The only way that they'd possibly have a say in the matter is if they made you sign a contract that said that you were not allowed to. If you didn't sign a contract, then you're good.

While this seems perfectly reasonable to the vast majority of us, this answer is, unfortunately, completely wrong from a legal standppoint. One prime example is software (specifically, AutoDesk's AutoCAD)... AutoDesk's TOS specifically states that you may not resell the software or transfer it to another owner. One could consider it a lifetime rental with no transfer option, so to speak. And the courts have backed them (which is the real unfortunate point).

You "signed" a contract the minute you forked over money and downloaded the plans.

[dirk martin]

While this seems perfectly reasonable to the vast majority of us, this answer is, unfortunately, completely wrong from a legal standppoint. One prime example is software (specifically, AutoDesk's AutoCAD)... AutoDesk's TOS specifically states that you may not resell the software or transfer it to another owner. One could consider it a lifetime rental with no transfer option, so to speak. And the courts have backed them (which is the real unfortunate point).

You "signed" a contract the minute you forked over money and downloaded the plans.

Yes, dan, you are correct in terms of software. Software companies clearly write such text in their TOS's.
but have you ever seen a TOS for woodworking plans that make such a statement?

to extrapolate the TOS for software, to you reselling your truck, would be obsurd.

i wonder which way to lean with purchased woodworking plans.....

[Keith Weber]

You "signed" a contract the minute you forked over money and downloaded the plans.

Software is a little different. With software, when you install it, you have to agree to the terms of service before it will work on your computer. That is essentially "signing" a contract.

Just forking over money for something is not signing a contract. The only way I could see any legal issue, is if you actually clicked to agree to terms of service that included such restrictions when downloading it. Only Dirk would know if he had to do that in order to proceed with the download. If he didn't agree to any terms of service, then it's just printed property (that he now owns) that falls under first-sale doctrine rules.

"Copyright law does not restrict the owner of a copy from reselling legitimately obtained copies of copyrighted works, provided that those copies were originally produced by or with the permission of the copyright holder. It is therefore legal, for example, to resell a copyrighted book or CD. In the United States this is known as the first-sale doctrine, and was established by the courts to clarify the legality of reselling books in second-hand bookstores. In addition, copyright, in most cases, does not prohibit one from acts such as modifying, defacing, or destroying his or her own legitimately obtained copy of a copyrighted work, so long as duplication is not involved." Source - Wikipedia

[dirk martin]

Very interesting, and educational.
Thank you very much for this reply, Keith!

[Mike Cutler]

Dirk

Not to simplify this, but it would appear that all you are doing is gathering the required materials, cutting the wood, and sending it on with a "legally purchased" copy of the plans for assembly. Correct? I could buy those plans, and pay someone else build the project me for me if I so desired ( which is actually very common), so I don't see the difference.
I don't see how you're violating any of the rights for the provider of the plans.
As others have stated though, it never hurts to contact the maker of the plans.

[Keith Hankins]

I've seen plans where the owner of the plans states that the purchaser has the rights to make one of them by purchasing the plans and only one. In other words if you want to make two of them you need to buy two copies of the plans. I laughed and moved on.

[Dave Richards]

I've seen plans where the owner of the plans states that the purchaser has the rights to make one of them by purchasing the plans and only one. In other words if you want to make two of them you need to buy two copies of the plans. I laughed and moved on.

That's not an uncommon position for publishers of plans. Most woodworking magazines have a similar position on plans and project articles. It's meant to prevent people from producing and selling multiple copies of the piece. It's not limited to woodworking, either. Many boat plans contain similar wording.

[Dan Hintz]

Yes, dan, you are correct in terms of software. Software companies clearly write such text in their TOS's.
but have you ever seen a TOS for woodworking plans that make such a statement?

to extrapolate the TOS for software, to you reselling your truck, would be obsurd.

i wonder which way to lean with purchased woodworking plans.....

My understanding is these plans were downloaded. Most downloads require you to agree to a TOS when you download... if that is the case here, then he is bound by the TOS.

Your truck example is a logical fallacy (reductio ad absurdum) that I didn't make, so I won't go there... this is a digital download and therefore has the same potential markings of software law, as well as some of those of digital books.

[Eric DeSilva]

It does seem odd to apply software legal constructs to woodworking plans instead of the first sale doctrine. I would also note Vernor v. Autodesk, Inc. has been subject to a lot of criticism and the principles upon which the 9th Circuit actually found in favor of Autodesk were fairly limited. I actually went to the Woodstore.net site and I see no indication that they are offering the licensing (it is about the SLA, not some TOS) of plans versus selling plans. Since it is a venture of Wood magazine, and Wood magazine has not, to my knowledge, asserted that magazine subscription purchasers are buying a license only, I find it hard to believe that they would alter that treatment relative to plans that are probably routinely published in the magazine. And, while the plans are downloadable, they are also available in hardcopy format. While I did not complete the purchase, I stepped through a lot of their sales procedures, and saw nothing that indicated that they were laying the groundwork to assert that they met the three decisional characteristics of Vernor v. Autodesk.

That said, I'd probably talk to Woodstore.net anyway, but only to see if there was a way of getting a volume discount.

[Myk Rian]

You're buying the plans for someone else, and you're giving yourself grey hair over it?
Get the stuff, give it to him, help build it, and be done.

[Duane Meadows]

Looks to me(not a lawyer!) that any use other than building for your personal use(ie.. not to sell, or someone paying you to build) are about the only "rights" woodstore.net claims you have and it is your responsibility to determine otherwise!

Even posting(or linking to) the applicable portion of their TOS text isn't apparently allowed, so I won't. But you can find it in their TOS.

...for whatever it's worth... Kinda takes "Buyer Beware" to a high level!

[Eric DeSilva]

The TOS you are referring to seems to be for the website content itself. Since the plans can be bought by phone in hardcopy, I'm not sure I see the TOS for website as controlling.