Anyone with experience building and using the Milkman's workbench?

[Bill Brush]

Hello Creekers,

I'm finding myself more and more interested in hand tool techniques, so I now have a stack of wood-bodied planes, half-dozen cast iron bench planes, some hand saws, and a very space constrained shop.

Since I really only have one bench top I can use for heavy-duty working and the shop is not exclusively a wood shop I don't want to replace my existing "bench" with a dedicated wood working bench.

Enter the Chris Schwartz Milkman's bench. This should allow me to clamp up projects so I can try hand dovetailing, and the tail vise and dogs should be the trick for planing. Then when I'm not in the woodworking mode I can set it off to the side or hang it from the rafters.

I have a stack of nice hard maple I have recovered from a bowling alley (1" x 2 1/2") that I think will do the job nicely. I will have to buy a thread box and tap for the vise screws, but that's not too much money.

Anyone have any personal experience building or using one that they'd like to pass on? I think I'll make mine a little longer than the original, but no radical departures.

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

While I've used the one the Chris built, I've not yet built my own. But you might check out Mark Hochstein's blog on his build, which starts here: http://www.gunpowderwoodworks.com/blog/2013/3/17/the-milkmans-workbench-build

[David Weaver]

Anyone with experience building and using the Milkman's workbench?
I thought the milkman usually did his work visiting other peoples houses during the day :) I didn't know he'd need a bench to do it.

(for anyone who has ever heard the joke "where did your kid get that red hair?" or whatever other attribute they may have that neither parent does).

[Pat Barry]

I can't figure out why a milkman would have a special workbench?

[george wilson]

Me neither.

[David Weaver]

Well, he's got to do his work somewhere, or there would be no red-headed kids of two parents with brown hair!

[george wilson]

Like Fred Farkle? :)

O.K.,I finally Googled the milkman's workbench. Will someone kindly explain to me why a milkman would need such a strange workbench,with such unusual vises? Is he wrapping whey curds in cheesecloth and squeezing the water out of it? I haven't bothered to read any blog about it. I try to stay away from blogs as much as possible.

O.K.,just kidding. The original was owned by a milkman in Denmark.

It looks like the long front beam could very easily crack. It is pierced by 4 large threaded holes in its length. They leave little wood on either side of the holes. And,this is where you apply clamp pressure to the work? Well,good enough to squeeze yet another article out of,I guess. But,I think it is really a bit of a stretch. The bench is by no means practical. I think you might be hard pressed(no pun intended) to clamp your work tightly enough to make it hold still,without starting to bulge the long beam,or make it crack when trying to hold a plank on edge.

[Bill Brush]

While all the commentary is amusing, the serious answer is that the original sample was shown to Chris Schwartz in Australia, and the owner's father had gotten it from the milkman, so they called it the Milkman's workbench.

While many blogs are of dubious worth, Chris Schwartz's is a very good source of info.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I skimmed a couple blog entries to refresh my memory, but basically, Chris Schwarz saw a small portable workbench in an auction catalog, thought it was neat and was interested in it; later on, one of his readers forwarded him all sorts of photos and info of a similar example, which started Chris apparently experimenting with the form and making a copy of it. The original blog post called it the "Milkman's Workbench", because the original piece that Chris referenced, the one his reader forwarded information about, belonged to the neighborhood milkman. It doesn't actually have any specific milkman uses, but just like the "Moxon Vise", the "Roubo Bench", the "Anarchist Toolchest" etc., Chris picks a quick title for something (or sometimes just references it off-hand in a in a blog post title) and eventually the world of internet woodworkers make it canon, I guess.

Bill - you mention already having a bench top you can use, but want this to add vise functionality somehow? What's the setup you're working around? I certainly use my woodworking bench for much more than woodworking - actually, it gets used much more for non-woodworking than woodworking as of late. You can do a whole lot of work with battens and stops and and such without vises. But depending on what you've got now, you may very well be able to make things work with minimal if any alterations, and get a good feel for what work you like doing (or if you even like doing it!) and what you miss/desire from your current setup, giving you a better idea of what you want to add and how.

The big thing about the "milkman" design that kind of makes me hesitate is that the cheaply available wood taps and dies, I've heard really mixed reviews about.

[Jim Koepke]

A portable bench top only has one real advantage, being portable. In your case that may be an important issue.

Chris Schwartz has illustrated it attached to a dining table and other supports.

My experience with a small woodworking bench has led me to seeing a bigger bench would be better for my work.

Of course it all depends on how big the projects are you intend to build.

I am in agreement with Joshua in that trying to work with your current bench might be a better approach. I have used cardboard or plywood on such a bench to avoid contamination from oil and metal work. Like Joshua I also do non-woodworking tasks on my woodworking bench.

Using a less than optimal bench for a while may help in determining what features you may want in a bench.

jtk

[george wilson]

Those wood tap and die sets all make threads that are too fine to be proper wood threads. Wood threads need to be large,and with a 90º angle instead of the 60º angle that metal threads have. This is to keep them from cracking off. This seems to have been forgotten by most of the makers of wood threading outfits.

You can find good,proper German made large (abt 2") wood threading outfits in the Dick catalog. But,they run about $2,000.00. And,that is a price I saw several years ago.

[David Weaver]

Those wood tap and die sets all make threads that are too fine to be proper wood threads. Wood threads need to be large,and with a 90º angle instead of the 60º angle that metal threads have. This is to keep them from cracking off. This seems to have been forgotten by most of the makers of wood threading outfits.

You can find good,proper German made large (abt 2") wood threading outfits in the Dick catalog. But,they run about $2,000.00. And,that is a price I saw several years ago.


Those kits all come from china or taiwan. Whoever gave them plans to make the threads probably had no clue, and most of the people they're selling them to have no clue, either. that's typical these days, though. Do 90% of the effort, but not the 10% required to make sure the plans are correct.

[Bill Brush]

My bench, is literally an old desk (large) that I have had for decades. It has a sacrificial top of particle board. It is unsuited to modification for a face or tail vise, so I usually wind up with some creative clamping, screwing stops to the top, or using my workmate.

I've been doing projects on it for years, so I have a pretty good idea of what it doesn't do, but what it does do nicely is hold stuff up and remain stationary. It is my lathe stand, my glueup table, science project station for the kids, soldering station, saw horse, reloading bench, and the list goes on.

All that being said, the fact that I can have a face and tail vise and still be able to move it out of the way is a big factor.

I realize the thread box and taps are not heirloom quality, and maybe the Beal system is better. I don't know. Is the Beal system worth double the cost? (probably) Is it worth it if these are the only wooden screws I make? (probably not) I could probably buy a tap and fabricate a thread box, but I'm not sure I want to spend that kind of time and money. I have to weigh the time and money factors. I know that buying off the shelf wood screws is a non-starter, as is buying acme thread rod.

Really I could just forgo the wooden screws and use wedges to clamp with, there are discussions out there of doing just that, but it's not as convenient.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. I'm going to do some sketching and see what I can come up with. Where the original is 8"x30" I think mine will be about 16"x48" or whatever I can reasonably get for length out of my materials.

[george wilson]

The Beal system uses a router to cut the threads. If used carefully,the router will cut cleaner,less chipped threads than a screw box. Screw boxes can be tricky to get cutting right. The cutters have to be sharpened carefully.

I don't think there is any difference in the incorrect thread geometry,though. I make my own taps and screw boxes,but I have the machinery to do it on. I have to make exact,proper size threads on antiques I repair that have threaded wooden parts. So,the ordinary sets are not satisfactory for me. Their threads are always too fine. I even make left handed screws when they are needed,like in wooden cooper's compasses. They have a single screw in the middle,which is half r.h.,and half l.h..

[David Weaver]

The beal kit does not look like it's more than 60 degrees, either. The router bit that's used in their video is not 90 degrees.

You can use the inexpensive taiwanese threader kits fine, and maple dowels don't cost too much. The only thing you have to do is sharpen the cutter that they come with, because like anything else, they come with OK geometry but they aren't sharp. With a little bit of rudimentary sharpening, they work extremely easily, and I had no problems with maple dowels and a 1 1/2 inch kit. I'd be willing to bet 95% of the problems people report with them being difficult to use are due to a dull cutter. The cutter is actually very good quality once you sharpen it - it's like file steel.

They work fine in a moxon style vise, the only quibble is the fact that the threads are 60 degrees makes me have to turn them more than I'd have to if they were 90. My vise is a router table fence, so that's a pain when I want to take the front part of the vise off and use the fence on a router table - which isn't very often, but it's like a forearm workout when you use it.

[Derek Cohen]

Not long ago I posted a portable bench (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BenchInAWeekend.html) I built ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BenchInAWeekend_html_7a54bd14.jpg

One of the features was threads turned on a router ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BenchInAWeekend_html_5d0989b1.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BenchInAWeekend_html_6f216e7f.jpg

There are videos on Youtube that will guide you through this process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZmnGLpqAGI

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Well,yours is more like the milk maid's work bench,Derek!!:)

[Derek Cohen]

:)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Not that I have ANYTHING against milk maids!!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The beal kit does not look like it's more than 60 degrees, either. The router bit that's used in their video is not 90 degrees.

I just watched a bit of their video instructions looking for a better image of the thing, and a couple minutes in he mentions the router bit included with the kit is a 60º bit.


You can use the inexpensive taiwanese threader kits fine, and maple dowels don't cost too much. The only thing you have to do is sharpen the cutter that they come with, because like anything else, they come with OK geometry but they aren't sharp. With a little bit of rudimentary sharpening, they work extremely easily, and I had no problems with maple dowels and a 1 1/2 inch kit. I'd be willing to bet 95% of the problems people report with them being difficult to use are due to a dull cutter. The cutter is actually very good quality once you sharpen it - it's like file steel.

Many of the complaints I had heard had been about the cutters failing, regardless of sharpening - edges crumbling and breaking, and if you end up trying to regrind them, ending up at soft, unhardened steel pretty quickly. I had also heard about complaints at one point of the pitch of the threads not quite matching between the tap and the die, but I believe that was a small set of cases with a particular manufacturing run.


They work fine in a moxon style vise, the only quibble is the fact that the threads are 60 degrees makes me have to turn them more than I'd have to if they were 90.

I'm probably just missing something, but wouldn't the speed of the in/out be more a function of the TPI than the pitch of the threads? I mean, if you have X number of threads per inch, and it's the same on two set ups, doesn't the screw move the same amount whether the threads are 60 or 90 degrees?


My vise is a router table fence, so that's a pain when I want to take the front part of the vise off and use the fence on a router table - which isn't very often, but it's like a forearm workout when you use it.

What about embedding a nut or something in the end of those screws, so you can chuck a socket in a cordless drill and spin it out with speed?


I seems to me if one could get their hands on a proper tap and some skill, and the ability to harden the cutter knives, you could make the thread box part . . . ( I suppose even the tap could be made, but would probably be a lot more involved . . . )

[David Weaver]

Josh, you're right. It's the pitch that makes the determination. A given thread height will have fewer threads per inch at 90 degrees, though. That's something I was just assuming but didn't elaborate very well.

I'm surprised the cutters are bad, but if they are crumbling, etc, I'd probably try to temper them, and if they didn't work, make another one. I know most people wouldn't be thrilled to make another one, though. It's too bad they aren't all as good as the one I have.

In terms of the nut on the end of the vise - that's coming the next time I use the vise (I don't use one of those types of vises unless I have long stock). I've got a couple of other things where I keep a cordless drill around and use it to do the work where a lot of turning is required. Sounds lazy but I love it!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm surprised the cutters are bad, but if they are crumbling, etc, I'd probably try to temper them, and if they didn't work, make another one. I know most people wouldn't be thrilled to make another one, though. It's too bad they aren't all as good as the one I have.



Well, the thing is, it's the sort of item where you see a handful of articles about using one, but you don't hear a lot of "user reviews" unless it's completely terrible. If it works, but it's not amazing, you get on with your life. Unless it's stellar or terrible, folks aren't going to make a lot of comment. The folks with problems are going to be the loudest and most vocal.

I've probably made a bit of assumption about the quality of the things based on some of Chris Schwarz's writing; he's mentioned in the past the same advice that you have, that the biggest issue with them is making sure that the cutters are sharp. But he's also mentioned off and on the issues he's had with them, simply because he's used a whole heck of a lot of them at some the day-long classes he's taught at various woodworking schools over the years. So I imagine he's worked with a larger sample size than many folks, but I have no idea how well that translates to what the current offerings are really like.

Every now and then I stumble across something where it might be nice to have, but I can never think of anything else with that size that makes it worth the investment . ..

[Derek Cohen]

Every now and then I stumble across something where it might be nice to have, but I can never think of anything else with that size that makes it worth the investment . ..

Joshua, that is exactly right.

I am not sure what the work around is. I am very reluctant to invest in an expensive tool that will be used once. The Beall kit is expensive. The cheap Chinese threading kit I have, used previously for a couple of Moxon vises ( one for my own and a few for friends), did a decent job while the blade was sharp, but is incredibly fiddly to reassemble after sharpening. These need to be seen as one-off tools. Hence I looked for an alternative. In my case I could use a router as I already had a tap. No wonder others turn to threaded steel rods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I know how fiddly those screw boxes can be!! If you don't get them sharpened and set just right,they'll shred the threads off down to the core.

The old Marples thread boxes had correct size threads for wood. They turn up on Ebay sometimes. They have the old,completely tapered cast iron looking taps that are a pain to thread straight with,but the threads at least are correct when done.

[Daniel Sutton]

I made this after seeing the blog on the milkman's bench. I'm going to start on a "real bench" this week. It has worked for me for about a year. It is limited compared to a bigger bench. If you aren't sure about handtools then it wouldn't hurt to build one to try them out. You will probably want to upgrade very soon thoughhttp://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w493/jaimechimie/20130806_221736_zpsc1aa5b07.jpg