liquid hide glue for sizing

[Judson Green]

I've mixed liquid hide glue and swarf to make a wood paste but haven't used it for sizing. I've read on the world tube folks saying to mix at 10% of the real stuff to water, but what about the liquid type?

The wood is cherry and its going to have a oil (tung or linseed) finish.

[Judson Green]

Making drawer fronts for a kitchen table, I veneered a bookmatched crotch of cherry with liquid hide glue (not hammered, just pressed/clamped) and had some glue bleed though.

291997
the one on the top isn't cleaned up yet, you can see some of the bleed though

So, I thought it best, after cleaning them up, to squeegee on some liquid hide glue on the face not just to size, but also to be consistent, on account of the bleed though in some places.

291999
fronts with straight liquid hide glue on the face

This is shop cut veneer (about 1/16" thick). Guess I was thinking it best to mimic hammer veneering as close as possible. Some of the folks on the world tube say to cut to a ratio of 10 to 1, but this it for the mix it yourself hide glue, not the liquid bottled version sold at the hardware store that I'm using.

I'll post results, but any thoughts?

[Jim Belair]

I have used hot hide glue to fill small voids but not as an overall size. I would have probably done a test piece but think it should work fine.

[Judson Green]

Well, I did end up planing/scraping off the hide glue that I squeegee on the drawer fronts (hard stuff, dulled the iron quickly), it had left a weird looking sparkly areas.

292155

And I've mixed up a potion of a little bit of liquid hide glue and water, brushed it on 2 of the 4 cut offs I've got from the drawer fronts. And that's as far as I've gotten. I've read that the surface should be sanded, but.... I don't use sand paper much and not really the look I'm looking for, so I don't know if I'll end up doing it or not.

I'll upload photos of the samples later.

Here's the potion before mixing
292158

[Judson Green]

Here's the samples with just the size brushed on. I'll sand, plane or scrape latter.

The 2 on the left have the above mentioned application plus the glue size, the 2 on the right have the above mentioned application.

292160

[Jim Matthews]

I'm confused about the terminology.

I thought sizing was something done to endgrain, before joining.
Is the problem to be solved here just the glue that migrated through to the show face?

I normally seal such surfaces with Shellac.

[Judson Green]

Maybe I'm not using the term correctly.

I'm doing this or trying to partly to mitigate the glue that migrated grade through to the show face, partly to help reduce blotchiness of an oiled cherry surface. Not sure that my small samples will help me develop an opinion regarding the blotchiness.

Don't think oil over shellac is ideal. Is that doable? Thought folks reversed that procedure?

[Jim Matthews]

You're advancing in method beyond my abilities.

I've used Waterlox over dewaxed Shellac, with good results.
I was taught to use Shellac over woods that show color variation
if the finish can appear deeper (lower chroma) in some areas.

http://www.waterlox.com/faqs/woodworking/apply-wood-finish-over-previously-finished-surfaces

Bob Flexner would agree with you that it's not the ideal material for this purpose.
He's already forgotten more about finishing than I will ever learn, even when I'm paying attention.

What were we talking about?

http://www.woodshopnews.com/columns-blogs/finishing/502292-shellac-as-a-sealer-its-all-just-hype

Your method is an ancient one, and should work but I'm unsure what finish goes well with this.
Having something water soluble as the "base coat" has my Spider Sense tingling.

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/325582-glue-sizing-as-a-ground/

http://www.leevalley.com/us/shopping/TechInfo.aspx?type=a&p=47291

[Judson Green]

Thanks Jim, you've got me thinking about water based finishes now. Don't know what to do.

I do have more of the same wood I think I'll make up a few more, larger samples.

[Jim Matthews]

Like I said, I'm out of my depth.

I did find a few makers of traditional instruments using this method.
If you can do a test piece, and see how various "top coats" adhere
you might be onto something.

I use hide glue in making pieces that will have a finish that shows,
because hide glue allows for an even appearance.

[Judson Green]

Here's the samples after 2 coats of size, rubbed out in between with a maroon scotch bright pad.

The one on the left is the one with the sizing.

292258

And here's the samples with 1 coat of BLO. Funny how the one without the sizing is making the BLO bead up.

292259

After about 20 minutes.

292260

Not a big difference, but I do think the one with the sizing (on the left) might be not as blotchy. I think I need larger samples to really form an opinion.

292261 292262

Couple of things though:

I wonder if the oil is penetrating as deeply?
And if using a film finish, would the adhesion be as good?

Edit: Both samples had some bleed though when veneering and both samples received my hide glue squeegee application (see above).

[Jim Matthews]

That's really interesting, the BLO beading...

If you turn the piece and see the shimmer of grain vary with the light,
you've got something good.

I would say any finish that forms an even coating, and dries without voids will work.

Remind me where these will be, in your home?
(I'm in the middle of a bathroom remodel and maybe overly cautious about humidity.)

http://www.violinist.com/blog/manfio/20129/13967/

[Judson Green]

That's really interesting, the BLO beading...

Right? While that sample did get bleed though and the squeegee treatment, it didn't get the size. Maybe, on account of my planing/scraping off the squeegee treatment not much glue was left in the pores, so very uneven take in of the finish. I don't know.

I think I need to get on those larger samples if I hope to see any chattoyance.

Its gonna be a kitchen table. Its sort of an open kitchen and doesn't really receive any huge humidity swings. Once in a while, in the dead of winter, when boiling water for pasta, I can hear my pig skin chairs creek.

[Jim Matthews]

Once in a while, in the dead of winter, when boiling water for pasta, I can hear my pig skin chairs creek.

That's odd.

When I'm making pasta in the dead of Winter, that's not the sound my boys make - on their chairs.

[Doug Trembath]

Maybe it's just me, but I think a well tuned scraper would prep the sized veneer for an oil such as BLO, to pop the grain, which could be finished with many options which are currently prevalent. Obviously, if you have a layer of glue on the surface, the oil cannot permeate the wood fibers, right? Therefore, no grain popping, just a buildup of oil, therefore oil beading. Wipe it off, take a nice scraper to the Ash you have done such a nice job on (and you did do a really nice job on grain orientation, BTW,) and remove the extraneous coating so the wood can react in a more normal fashion. I think the bleed through can be mitigated by the scraper. It probably came through some largish pores and spread from there. No worries, just create a nice surface for finish, and apply it. Hide glue takes stain, and acts as if it was hit with oil, anyway, in my experience, although it can get shiny. Sandpaper can help with that.

Actually, scraping and a WOP finish would provide all aspects needed, resulting in a finely finished piece, IMHO, but I've been wrong before, gentlemen...

Bob Flexner and Jeff Jewitt both recommend a BLO "pop", followed by a seal coat, and Poly. Simple, workable, and a finely finished piece.

Try it on scrap, but I believe your concern is somewhat like Shakespeare's "Much to-do about Nothing" (Tongue firmly in cheek, fellas...)

Doug Trembath

[Judson Green]

Doug

I think your right about much to do about nothing. I'm concerned that the oil isn't penetrating due to the sizing and personal I like the look of the the other sample in this small test I'm doing. I think what I'm going to do is BLO on the drawer fronts, sans sizing, and follow up with shellac in the future if I feel like it, ditto for the table's top.

I'm not to keen on polys, not easily fixed in my opinion. And the reality is, though it is a kitchen table it gets used more like a desk. And no kids.

I guess the only reason I'm going down this path (hide glue size) is cause I'd like to due hammer veneering very soon and I guess I'm trying to duplicate that as best I can. Probably should have stopped after I squeegeed on the hide glue. I don't know, but I'm learning.

[Jim Matthews]

I'd like to due hammer veneering very soon and I guess I'm trying to duplicate that as best I can. Probably should have stopped after I squeegeed on the hide glue. I don't know, but I'm learning.

You're setting trends for your contemporaries.

Lead on, if you succeed we will copy you and claim credit.
If you fail, we will kibbitz about how we woulda dunnit bettah.

[Judson Green]

Thanks for the encouragement, Jim.

Here's a cherry crotch for the same as my drawer fronts, freshly planed.

292316

They're cooking, I'm also dewing (trying to be constant with my last post) just some normal, boring cherry. Sizing on the right.

292317 292318

[Judson Green]

I wonder if I'm asking the right questions, or maybe asking them the wrong way.... If my questions aren't more just hammer veneering questions.

That said, Jim, your opening my eyes to what some luthiers are doing is very tantalizing.

This morning I watched this video of Roy's, with a mention of our own George Wilson.

Here's the link.... Good stuff!

http:// Woodwright's Shop Hammer Veneer Full Episode: http://youtu.be/zHR69tufPws (http://youtu.be/zHR69tufPws)

[Judson Green]

Here's the samples after 2 coats of liquid hide glue size, rubbing out in between with a maroon Scotch Brite pad, and 1 coat of linseed oil.

I oiled these last night and rubbed off the excess about 2 hours latter. Both non-sized samples drank in the oil, both sized samples had the oil sitting on the top, even after the 2 hours.

Sized on the right.

Soon after applying the oil...

292427 292428

Two hours later, after rubbing off the excess.

292424 292425

I think the crotch is developing a little chatoyance. Ha, that sounds funny.

[Judson Green]

OK 2 coats of linseed oil. The non-sized side is still drinking up the oil, seems the sized side still has a near complete surface of liquid oil on it. Sized on the right. Note the time stamp in the lower right of the photos. Last photo is with the sample wiped off.

292490 292491 292492

[Judson Green]

Well, I think I like where this going, so I decided to go ahead a size my drawer fronts.... fingers crossed. If there is any chatoyance, its slight, but I do like that the sizing seems to make the surface a little shinier. I'm not sure if I'll do this for the table top or not.


292549 292550

After sizing.