Questions about choosing a jointer-planer combination

[rudy de haas]

hi:

I have three questions I'd much appreciate getting answers to - but first, some background.

I live in Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. I'm a retired management consultant (IT/Business strategies), not a woodworker. I'm learning how to do basic wood stuff because our house needs lots of work, I have more time than cash, and it's fun.

Several weeks ago I decided my next project would justify buying a jointer and planer purely on lumber savings. I started out thinking I needed benchtop tools because I have limited space, but quickly learned these would not be adequate and started looking at larger machines.

After I did, I concluded that:

1- Among 10" combined jointer-planers the Hammer A3-260 seems to stand out for quality but there are none now available in Canada and they're quite expensive. The last record I can find of a used one being sold in Canada is from January of this year, and I found none currently on offer. The 12" models seem to trade regularly, but they're absurd overkill for a guy who really wants an 8" combined jointer-planer with about a 60" bed.

2 - The Rikon 10" (model 25-010) is available (new, $1,099 cdn ) in Calgary (2 hours away) but appears to be at the low end in the category.

3 - The Grizzly G0675 looks like a pretty good choice - I'm guessing that it is much better than the Rikon but not as good as the Hammer. It's $1,150 USD plus $149 USD shipping plus whatever UPS demands on delivery, but when I tried to order it, we went through several iterations on their policy on UPS brokerage and related charges (basically: their way or the highway) before finding out that it's out of stock until the week of July 23rd. At a guess, that means mid to late August delivery - and, of course, I want it yesterday.

And that leaves me with some questions I'm hoping the people here can help me with:

1 - What's really better? Wait, pay UPS whatever they demand, and get the grizzly? Get a used 8" jointer (both General and Powermatic come up a lot) and a new DeWalt 735? Get the Rikon on the grounds that I can have it tomorrow and it's more machine than I know how to use anyway?

2 - Grizzly flat out refuses to accept responsibility for UPS fees other than freight - although their customer service rep, who at first kept trying to explain their policy (their way, or Rikon?), eventually agreed that they would take up any overages with UPS - but then followed up with an email saying they would not.

Am I the only Canadian customer who's unhappy about having to pay UPS whatever they ask for on delivery?

(Note that this problem, to the extent it is one, should be trivial for Grizzly to fix - I offered to show them how, but hit a wall.)

3 - Grizzly has been around for something like 30 years and they look pretty good on web review - but there's no real used market. Craigslist in the US and kijiji in Canada carry offers on hundreds of machines from Sears, from Rockwell/Delta, from General, Laguna, -even Foley-Belsaw - but almost no Grizzly products. Anyone have any idea why not? Are these things heirlooms? too easily broken to resell? or is there an active used market I haven't found?

[Evan Patton]

Rudy,
You might want to consider some of the other Asian imports. Many are manufactured in the same factory with different quality/features/paint. I took advantage of a 15% off and free shipping sale on a Jet 12" Jointer/Planer with helical knives and am quite happy with it. I chose the Jet because it had the easiest and fastest switch over between jointing and planing. I definitely recommend the carbide helical knives--they're quieter, make less dust, and are easier to change. As for a 12" j/p being too big I don't think you'll mind it at all once you've gotten over the price and and used it a bit.

Here's a nice comparison of imports including the Grizzly and Rikon:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/article/tool-test-jointerplaner-combination-machines.aspx

The used Belsaw is an interesting choice for your application. I don't think they made a jointer/planer, but as I recall their planer could also be used to cut molding--something that could be pretty useful for you.

You will definitely want a dust collector--these things generate lots of wood chips!

Good luck,
Evan

[Jim Becker]

The issue with shipping into Canada isn't new nor is it limited to certain vendors...that cross-border thing adds substantial cost. (This is one reason that Lee Valley, based in Canada, has a US facility in New York state so they can mitigate the cross border costs on individual sales into the US, for example)

For that reason alone, it may be more cost effective for you to pick a product that is available from a reseller/vendor located in Canada. I don't say this in any way to put a poor light on the US vendor you're considering, but the realities of doing business are what they are and margins are thin. It's hard to ask a vendor to absorb the significant extra cross border costs themselves...and that particular vendor didn't even offer to sell into Canada until recently, likely because of those costs. And that's why you are not seeing Grizzly used up there...unless someone took it across the border themselves after buying in the US, it didn't get there.

[John TenEyck]

If you have the space I would get a separate jointer and planer, and I would buy used ones. An 8" jointer and 15" planer is a very useful set up. I have a combo machine, and it's great where space is limited, period. Otherwise, stand alone machines are just more convenient. I would not fight with Grizzly or anyone else over shipping. I'd buy used machines locally, spend less, and have more. Any of the old machines would be on my watch list.

John

[rudy de haas]

Oops - this was a reply to Jim Becker, above.

Thanks! however...

1 - I'm not seeing Grizzly used in the US either.

2 - I'm not asking grizzly to pay brokerage and tax costs. Only not to force me to pay whatever undocumented and unsupported demand UPS comes up with
at the door. I've ordered books from Amazon and found UPS demanding amounts ranging from nothing to about $55 on delivery. With Amazon I just refuse to accept the shipment and then get them to go after UPS - because my complaining to UPS after paying them is about as useful as, you know, things on bulls. IIt's easy to calculate what the charge should be on the G0675 ($88.50 for brokerage and tax at today's exchange rate) impossible to confidently predict what it will be.

[rudy de haas]

hi:

Thanks - I did look at the Jet, King, and a couple of others. Rikon's 12" is, I suspect, about as good as the others and only $1,799 Cdn - no helical knives, but I'm poor... If I went 12", I think I'd wait until I found a used Hammer A3-31 - they come up fairly often and look pretty good.

And, yes, I am getting a dust system - several come up used every week and they're cheap.

[Rich Enders]

Rudy,

You say you are not a woodworker, and are only looking at lumber savings. But you are looking at relatively expensive stuff. A 12 inch bench top planer and a homemade jointer sled will get you into the game for a few hundred (US) dollars. I know from 5 years experience that this is a very functional combination, and you get whatever precision you want.

[rudy de haas]

Thanks!

I suppose that's do-able, but I'm not confident of my ability to pull it off. I did look carefully at the 6" jointer/12" planer benchtops (It's how I got interested
in Grizzly to begin with) but doing 8" stuff on a 6" jointer is either tricky or unsafe and the one I looked at carefully (Porter-Cable) just looked like it wasn't going to give good results for long. Older Delta gear looks tougher, but it's older and costs more so I'm pretty much hung up on getting bigger gear.

[John Piwaron]

I use separates - a 12.5" DeWalt "lunchbox" planer (DW733) and a 8" Delta jointer (DJ-20). That planer uses resharpenable knives. They make a model that replaces it that has throw away knives.

That combination is what I've been using for many years through a lot of projects. For the times I have to flatten something wider than the planer can do I take the work to my local lumber store and have them put it through their thickness sander for a few bucks.

Good luck!

[Rich Enders]

Rudy,

Since you have more time than money...... It is doable. I had the (US$ 250) 13" Ryobi bench top planer from Home Depot, and it did the job without complaining for 5 years. I bolted it to a piece of slightly oversize 3/4 inch plywood and then clamped the plywood to my bench. When I was done with it I gave it to Habitat for Humanity, and I have no doubt it is still out on a construction sight somewhere. Actually other than being cheap, I don't think the Ryobi gets any rave reviews, but tool tests are available to help you if you go in this direction.

I built a 12" wide jointer sled with guidance from an article in Fine Woodworking. I used their torsion box concept for the base, but simplified the supports. I guess surprisingly it works easily and gives you the full width capability of the planer. I think my cost was about $20, and 4-5 hours. It works for face jointing. For edge jointing I used a table saw and/or a router.

Good luck on your projects.

[John TenEyck]

Rudy, you aren't really all that far from Calgary. I have to believe good used machines come up for sale in Calgary and the surrounding area all the time. I live in much smaller city (near Buffalo, NY) and in today's C-list there is a 12" Crescent Jointer, and 12" MiniMax J/P, and a Rockwell RC-33 planer. Similar machines come up all the time.

Shop "local", shop used. You'll save a lot of money over buying new and avoid cross border shipping hassles.

John

[Ryan Mooney]

Agree with Rich if you're on a budget a solid used planer and a homemade sled will get you all the face jointing you need. If you aren't all that familiar with using a jointer imho the sled is actually slightly easier and certainly safer to use. Its perhaps not quite as fast, but if you batch up the work and layout the shop with infeed/outfeed support its not immensely slower either. The sled is really quite easy to make as well. The Belsaw would be nice if its in good shape because of the molding capability. I used my DW734 like that for quite a few years before upgrading to an A3-31 (my moms husband now has the 734 and gushes about how great it is - lots of new projects apparently appeared at their house :D). I still have the sled although I admit I haven't used it in a couple of years..

For edge jointing as Rich noted there are a number of jigs for either the table saw or your router table that work a charm (a quick google search for "jointing table saw" or "jointing router table" gets a bunch of hits). Again a bit more setup than just zip over the jointer but not a whole lot if you do a few pieces at once.

[rudy de haas]

I agree - used has a lot going for it.

Any ideas about my third question? Why is there so little used Grizzly stuff on the market?

[rudy de haas]

umm, maybe I'm being dense - so I'm going to take your advice to heart and go try this with a friend's dewalt (it's a 734). Always nice to save some money, etc

[Ryan Mooney]

Any ideas about my third question? Why is there so little used Grizzly stuff on the market?

I suspect that there just hasn't been that much going into the canadian market historically (due to import CSA electric requirements, yadda yadda). I do see some locally around here.. but then I'm basically a short hop skip and a jump from western bear country (grizzlies western sales floor is only a few hours drive away).

[Rick Fisher]

+1 on what Ryan said.. Grizzly was never historically CSA approved and due to that, pretty uncommon in Canada.

[Curt Harms]

In addition to what others have said, jointer/planer combos have only recently been considered practical by most people in N. America so there aren't a lot of machines yet to make up a used market. IMO Rikon, Grizzly and Jet are comparable, Hammer and Minimax are a step up.

[John TenEyck]

I have an Inca 10-1/4" J/P. I've had it for more than 25 years and it's great little machine that does big work. A look at the photo gallery on my website shows what it's capable of. I have one of the early models that used a separate 1.5 HP motor. That allowed them to ship it where ever they wanted where an approved motor could be used. They are not available too often but that might be an option if you can find one. They typically go for less than $750 on the used market, often quite a bit less. In 25 years I've replaced one planetary gear belt and the thing has processed thousands of BF.

But I'd still go with separate machines if you have the room.

John

[John Gornall]

A couple of years ago Grizzly went seriously into the Canadian Market. They have a clear and simple shipping by UPS Frieght (separate system from UPS Parcel). Currently Grizzly gives you a credit approximately equal to the brokerage costs. If you access the Grizzly website from a Canadian computer you get a click on the home page which takes you to their Canadian shipping policy. It's straight forward and you do have to do it their way. My neighbour ordered an 8" jointer on Friday and received it the next Wednesday - he had no issues about delivery or costs. And many Grizzly machines are now CSA approved - for example most 8 in jointers are - shows in red print in the product listing. This red print may only show if you access the Grizzly site from a Canadian located computer.

[John Gornall]

Description
This machine is identical to our model G0656X with the exception of the dazzling white color and incredible introductory price.This 8" Jointer has all the features you’d want for precision jointing applications and ease of use. For precision jointing, we started with a 6 foot, cast iron bed and added positive handwheel adjustment for both the infeed and outfeed tables. A built-in mobile base, center mounted fence with lateral rack and pinion control and a pedestal mounted switch all combine to make this jointer one of the best jointers you’ll find anywhere. CSA certified meeting CSA C22.2 #71.2-10 and UL 987-8 standards!

[rudy de haas]

You bring up an interesting point about CSA certification. Many years ago I needed to buy computer gear for a client and settled (as I usually did, being a Unix bigot and all) on Sun gear. Getting it in California saved about 40% over getting it in Canada, and on a $3 million hardware budget that was real money. However, DEC tried to force us to buy from them or Sun Canada by sending a lawyer's letter claiming that Sun's California gear came without CSA certified power supplies and were not legal for use in Canada.

Our lawyers said No - so what we did was have the dealer in San Francisco ship to an office in Montana, and we sent a truck to pick it up. No one ever sued, no power supplies caught fire, and Sun honored the service contracts in Canada.

If a company like Grizzly didn't sell enough of a particular product line into Canada to justify paying CSA fees and didn't want to have to enforce NAFTA on this if the CSA sued, they could just sell to an agent near the border and have the Canadian customer pick it up. Most Canadians would understand the logic.

P.S. I do not know if the complaints found at http://www.restorecsa.com/ reflect reality, but it makes interesting reading on this subject.

[Mark Henshaw]

Rudy,
Just to quick note to let you know that I have owned a Grizzley 12" planer/jointer combo machine for 3 years. I am very happy with my purchase. I am a serious hobbyist making period furniture, utilizing mainly cherry, walnut and mahogany. As others have said, if you have the money and space, seprate machines are always going to be a better option. I work out of a 2 car garage and the combo machine gives me the advantages of a wide jointer and a carbide helical cutter head for a price that I could not touch with seperate units. All combo units will require a few minutes of change over from jointer to planer as well as are more difficult and time consuming to align the tables if they ever go out of parallel.

[rudy de haas]

John G:

Yes - but my shipping issue isn't with grizzly, it's with UPS. When the truck shows up, you pay what they ask or they take a shipment you've paid for away - and arguing with their customer service people has never yet worked for me. Most of the time the number is reasonable: brokerage plus GST - but sometimes it's unfathomable, and you have no choice and no real recourse. I am willing to refuse a $19.99 book from Amazon because UPS wants $32 on delivery - but I'm less likely to write off a $1,300 US jointer-planer because the guy wants $200 (or whatever ) at the door. Grizzly could fix this easily, but all they want to do is explain that they don't...

[rudy de haas]

If I could get one, I'd buy it.

Right now my best bet on used quality machine appears to be either two machines (e.g. there's a Powermatic 60B on kijiji right now) or a used Hammer A3-31.

[rudy de haas]

The G056X is a very nice machine -and, apropos of that CSA thing, didn't Shop Fox start out as Canadian?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Rudy, yes it's not legal to use a non approved machine in Canada, doesn't have to be a CSA approval, just a Canadian electrical approval.

The Hammer A3-31 is a great machine, I've had one for years, my brother now has one, I would highly reccomend it. The A26 has shorter beds, I woulg go with the A31.

restore CSA has an axe to grind as they want to be able to use the CSA material without paying for it............Regards, Rod.

[mreza Salav]

Rudy, if I may suggest first decide what level of woodworking you want to do. That defines the type of machine you need. Then decide what brand/model is going to suite you.
It *seems* to me you are so much fixed on the extra UPS charge and are loosing the sight on what is more important.
I am a (serious) hobbist. I started with a 6" jointer and a lunch box planer (DW734). Both served me well but were limiting what I wanted to do. So I have upgraded to a J/P combo
(Minimax FS350 which is about 14"). I bought it used in US and shipped it here in Edmonton.
My suggestion is, try the used market if you are not in a hurry. A combo machine (of a good brand) offers a lot for hobbist. If you want to get a new one I think Hammer, Minimax, Casadei are all good ones. You can get them all in Canada I believe. FYI Casadei is built in the same factory as minimax (they are almost identical).
If you have space you can alternatively get an 8" (or larger) jointer and a planer.

[rudy de haas]

Thjanks - I believe it's legal to use, but not to sell - and that NAFTA exempts US made UL approved products like the motors on some Grizzly products. And, yep restorecsa is grinding axes but I have no idea whether they have a case or not.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Have you looked into getting an INCA 570? There were dealers in Canada so you may find some used ones.

I have one I use as a jointer and it's a very satisfactory machine for furniture scale work. It has a Tersa cutterhead. The belt is broken so I've never planed with it. I would not pay what some people are asking for the machine though... it's worth $500-$800 imo.

I had a Robland in the past. The INCA is smaller but the tables are truer. I could still do accurate work on the Robland but a lot of people would be disappointed such a machine developed swaybacked tables. I liked the mortiser on the Robland.

[rudy de haas]

hi:

I'm not familiar with Inca - although I see there's a Model 550 for sale near London Ont right now - $875

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/london/inca-10-1-4-jointer-planer-model-550-near-london-ontario/586548753

That's a bit far to go look at it, but if one appears near here, I will.

[Loren Woirhaye]

There's a Yahoo group you can join (need a Yahoo email to get into newsgroups) where people post wanted and for sale notices all the time. A machine may turn up if you inquire.

[Frank Martin]

If I could get one, I'd buy it.

Right now my best bet on used quality machine appears to be either two machines (e.g. there's a Powermatic 60B on kijiji right now) or a used Hammer A3-31.


If there is already a used Hammer A3-31 and you can afford it, I would not look into other machines, especially asian ones. I say go with the Hammer and be done.

[John Gornall]

Hammer is just too expensive in Canada - over 5000 plus taxes. Finding a used one is unlikely. The Grizz at 2295 fits the budget and I assume they've sold lots of them. Seems these have quietly slipped successfully into shops without problems as there are just no reviews negative or positive. Mark's post above does indicate he is positive. Anyone else out there with a Grizzly jointer/planer and comments?

[John TenEyck]

Well, no worries - that Inca has already been sold ! But I've seen one listed here and one over at WoodNet in the last 6 months. However, if I could afford it, that Hammer J/P would have been in my garage already. If you really want a J/P, you can't do much better.

John

[mreza Salav]

Rudy that Hammer on kijiji isn't a smoking deal but a good price given the options it has. There are quite a few people who are happy with that machine.
The seller has quite a few other tools listed (though most might be beyond what you want to do). You might get a deal on a bunch of them.
If I didn't have a 24" bandsaw already I'd get that Laguna bandsaw he has.

[rudy de haas]

Agreed - (I assume you mean the one in Edmonton) but it's far more than I want to spend and more than a new A3-260.

[John Gornall]

The one in Edmonton I assume is sold as it's not in the add posted 22 Jun. It's the older model and the Hammer people tell me it can't be upgraded to spiral. They also told me the new model if bought with straight knives can't be upgraded to spiral. But I've been told a lot of things that turned out to be wrong.

[Curt Harms]

The one in Edmonton I assume is sold as it's not in the add posted 22 Jun. It's the older model and the Hammer people tell me it can't be upgraded to spiral. They also told me the new model if bought with straight knives can't be upgraded to spiral. But I've been told a lot of things that turned out to be wrong.

That might be worth a call to Byrd. They're the manufacturer so presumably they know what will and won't fit:

http://www.byrdtool.com/

A vendor who is supposed to have good prices on Byrd heads and other cutter related stuff:

http://holbren.com/spiral-cutterhead/

[Rod Sheridan]

The one in Edmonton I assume is sold as it's not in the add posted 22 Jun. It's the older model and the Hammer people tell me it can't be upgraded to spiral. They also told me the new model if bought with straight knives can't be upgraded to spiral. But I've been told a lot of things that turned out to be wrong.

That is correct, you cannot upgrade to the Hammer spiral cutter head for any Hammer j/p, it's a factory install only as there are differences in the machine itself.

Regards, Rod.

[rudy de haas]

Tried it last night - umm ah umm .. notice the lack of enthusiam? It's actually a 735 - very nice little machine - but my first lesson on using
it as a wide side jointer in combination with the table saw is that I need a better saw. I think that's in my future anyway (grizzly has a very
nice cabinet saw I'd give my wife's eye teeth to get) but it's more than the jointer-planer.

[rudy de haas]

Good question - the dumb answer is the right one: the best I can.

The basement rebuild starting this fall includes lots of cabinetry, custom bed alcove, a weird door (two 44" pieces meeting at right angles), etc etc.

My immediate project is a side panel for a new jennair fridge - to match some honduran maghogany cabinets built by an expert about 25 years ago. It sounds
simple - 84" tall, 23+ wide.. two inset gizmos (undefined yet) to hold two fancy cutting boards, but it's beyond what I've done before. Since I had to cut the counter by 5" (the previous built in fridge was 32" wide, this one is 36), this includes an 8" wide spice roll-out carrier to fill what used to be a 13" under counter cabinet space.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Baileigh has an attractively priced 16" J/P combo, last I checked.

I do work for clients. I've sometimes found 12" to be not enough. If you look for a long time you will find a 16" vintage jointer for a bargain. I did, eventually... I don't even have room to set it up but some time later I will. The 16" planer is far easier to find.

The bigger and more costly the machines you acquire the more difficult they will be to sell for a decent price.