What constitutes the "BEST" gouge?

[John Keeton]

As an introduction to this thread, it is NOT the intent to start any sort of "WHO makes the best tool!"

In fact, this thread is an effort to thwart that type of post, by relating why various factors might suit the individual needs of a particular turner vs. why they may not for another turner.

The fact is, there are many fine tools being made, and for a variety of reasons one or more may or may not suit your turning needs. I thought it might be interesting to explore what those reasons might be.

I would encourage you to add comments from your personal experiences that contribute information that might be beneficial to viewers.

It might also be helpful if you state which tools work best for you, BUT including WHY is most important. That type of information is helpful to folks that are seeking information - perhaps beginners trying to figure out which tool to buy, and even to experienced turners that are just beginning to consider other tools.

What will NOT be helpful is a blanket statement that a particular manufacturer makes the best tools available. That is simply not a true statement, for the reasons discussed, and is NOT helpful.

There are many factors to consider - flute design, machining, etc., and one often discussed is the metal used. To start out the discussion, I will post some general comments on metal qualities extracted from the CPM site - http://www.crucible.com/eselector/general/generaltitle.html These qualities help define WHY a particular gouge might be more suited to your style of turning.

"Toughness
* Ability to resist chipping or breakage. Several factors influence toughness, including : amount of carbon in solution, the hardness the steel is heat treated to, the carbide size and volume, and the other alloy in solution. Carbide size and volume are probably the greatest controlling factors for toughness. High amounts of chromium weaken grain boundaries, although for stainless steels carbide size and volume are the limiting factor. Nickel and silicon in moderate amounts increase toughness without affecting strength.

Wear Resistance

* The ability to resist abrasive wear. Highly important property for slicing type cutting, especially when slicing abrasive materials like rope and cardboard, but less important in general when it comes to slicing soft, less abrasive materials, in which case edge stability, strength, and toughness are more important for holding an acute, polished edge. For the slicing cuts, if the edge is relatively thick wear resistance is more beneficial. Generally greater wear resistance means the steel is more difficult to sharpen, so even if a knife can benefit from a steel of greater wear resistance, less wear resistance may be preferred for easier resharpening."

Speed, aggressiveness and the type of wood turned are all important. If the wood has a lot of silica content, then those particles will tend to abrade the edge of the tool with minute fractures, leaving a microscopically rough edge. Rock inclusions in a piece of root will do a number on a hard, more brittle tool, but might not damage as much the edge of a tougher tool. Tool tip mileage is also important when it comes to wear. In turning a typical bowl, someone like Reed Gray who can/will take off a ½" thick layer of wood with each pass will put far less mileage on the cutting area of his gouge, than will someone like me that tends to be far less aggressive.

The following table on the CPM site is helpful, as well.






Heat Treatment Temp




HRC




Wear Resistance



Adhesive




Impact Toughness



Ft/lbs




CPM 15V


2150°F (1175°C)




64




124




8




CPM 15V


2050°F (1120°C)




61




-




9




CPM 15V


2050°F (1120°C)




58




-




13




CPM 10V


2150°F (1175°C)




63




90




14




CPM M4


2120°F (1160°C)




63




31




31.5




D2


1850°F (1010°C)




60




4




17




D7


1900°F (1040°C)




61




7




6





This is an excerpt from one of the data sheets on the CPM site –

291782


D-Way uses M42 Cobalt steel and Dave states he heat treats to R67-68. The following typical alloy content was found at http://www.westyorkssteel.com/tool-steel/high-speed-steel/m42/




Carbon
1.05%
Silicon
0.35%


Tungsten
1.50%
Chromium
3.75%


Vanadium
1.15%
Molybdenum
9.50%


Cobalt
8.00%



And, from http://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM4, the following:

http://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/assets/805e20c8/skin/images/html/blockM42.jpg

Regarding any type of "proprietary" metal used by a manufacturer, it would be helpful if the manufacturer had publicly provided similar information, even if they did not choose to disclose the alloy content of the metal. That would alleviate guesswork about the metal characteristics of the tool and diminish possible skepticism about the claims of the manufacturer.

Sooooo.....what characteristics do you desire in a gouge and why? Or, what additional information would you think helpful to others considering a new tool purchase?

[John Keeton]

Some folks responded to Roger's thread on the Serious gouge review with general information on gouge qualities. I was not able to move those posts, so I would encourage you to repost that info here.

Thanks.

[Dale Miner]

John, it takes a brave man to stick a bowl gouge into a hornets nest.

Seriously though, regarding the steel itself, abrasion resistance is high on my list of desirable qualities. I seldom chip a cutting edge from turning, and that probably has a lot to do with the bevel angles used and material turned.

I see from your posting that 15V has an abrasion resistance rating about 30% higher than 10V. I have never had a 15V tool so can't compare it first hand to a 10V regarding how well it holds an edge. I also see that 15V has quite a bit less impact toughness. Since edge chipping is not an issue for me, I might be willing to try a 15V someday even though the cost is substantially higher than 10V.

The gist of your post concerns the qualities of the metal, so I will leave flute shape for another thread.

[John Keeton]

The gist of your post concerns the qualities of the metal, so I will leave flute shape for another thread.Dale, feel free to comment on flute profile or any other consideration you think might be helpful to folks considering a gouge. My hope is that this thread will explore the various considerations and attributes, while remaining informative.

[J.D.Redwine]

Del Stubbs used a water pipe.

[Reed Gray]

Hmm, lots of food for thought... I guess second point would be what profile do you like on your gouge noses. I don't think hardly any one likes the really deep V flute design. Doug Thompson's V is almost a U, and his U is almost a C, or half circle. Turning style probably determines a lot of it. For turning style, there is: 1) do you turn on a long bed lathe, or a short bed/sliding/pivoting headstock, and 2) do you turn with dropped handle, or level handle. For me, I never use swept back grinds any more. I do all my roughing and shear scraping with scrapers. BOB tools (bottom of bowl) are just about as varied, from the fluteless gouges to standard gouges with almost no sweep, to a spindle/detail gouge with almost no sweep, which I think was Dave Hautt's 'bowl skew'.

I tend to like more open flute designs because I roll the gouges over to 45 to 90 degrees, and hold them mostly level. So, the more rounded the nose is, the higher shear angle I can get, and the larger the sweet spot is. I think a 45 degree bevel and sweep work best here. I use a push cut here.

For pull cuts, I think a more swept back design works better, and a Thompson type V flute.

If you are shear scraping with your gouge, then a swept back for sure. I was talking to Lyle about his parabolic gouge and one of his comments about it is that the more open flute design makes it so you can see better when you are shear scraping, and a more close flute design, you have to roll it over until you can't see any more. That is why I prefer scrapers.

I may be rambling here a bit. Headed off tomorrow morning for a 5 day fishing expedition in remote NW Ontario Canada. Fresh walleye every day...... Catch and release, and barbless hooks.... No phone, no computer, lots of loons, including my dad, some brothers, and others....

robo hippy

[David DeCristoforo]

I think if I have to see one more of these "which one is the best gouge" threads, I'm just going have to shoot myself...

[Sid Matheny]

I think I uses different grinds and shapes for the need at hand so can't pick which one I really like best. As for the material they are made of, well I'm cheap and don't mind sharpening since I'm not a production turner so use cheaper gouges than most of the turners here. Great subject matter for this thread anyway.


Sid

[John Beaver]

Here's my take.

1st the tool needs to be sharp. I don't care what type of tool it is, if it isn't sharp it doesn't work well. That's true for scrapers, gouges and carbide tools.

For me, the next thing is flute shape, or cutter shape. We all cut differently, and have different needs, and you have to find the flute that works best for you. There is a certain "v" shaped gouge that is very popular on this forum that just doesn't serve my purposes. There are also some very expensive gouges that don't work particularly well for me.

Next, for me, it has to cut the wood - unless it's a scraper or hollowing tool, in which case the burr needs to scrape the wood. I'm just not a big fan of carbide tips and the way they scrape and grab.

I personally don't really worry that much about the metal. Yes, some hold an edge longer then others, but sometimes those are harder to sharpen, so if the flute is correct and I can grind it the way I like, I'm not over concerned about the metal type. Within the range of decent HSS I can make them all work fine.

[John Keeton]

I think if I have to see one more of these "which one is the best gouge" threads, I'm just going have to shoot myself...David, you missed the point! It isn't about "which" is the best gouge. It is "what MAKES it the best gouge" for you and your style of turning. Which metal, which grind, which flute, etc.

Care to contribute? Input from accomplished turners like you would be helpful to others.

[Alan Trout]

Very simply put it is the tool you use to your full potential and get the best results. The best will vary with each individual. For me I prefer a V bowl gouge with a wing. Any where from a 45 to 60 degre nose. Other than that I am not to picky. I really like Doug's tools for the value they represent.

[Thom Sturgill]

As to flute shape - I rarely use my U gouge and tend to prefer parabolic though I also use Doug's 'Jimmy Clewes' line which is a TIGHTER V than his normal, but I do a lot of pull cuts. The Clewes' V does tend to clog more than others. As said before, I think a polished flute could be very important as a ridge in the flute translate to a wave in the edge and possibly a ridge in the work. To me the 'proper' flute shape and side grind depend entirely on what cut you are doing and that depends on the wood being cut, whether it is dry or green, and the shape being created.

As to metal, I think sharpening plays a big part here. If Cindy Drozda is correct, the AO wheel can not cut the Vanadium carbides formed in the V-type steels and simple breaks them out of the matrix, negating the sharpness and wear resistance. Before getting a CBN wheel, I got better results from M2 than V10 because it started so much sharper. Now, with a CBN wheel, I rarely pick up an M2 or M4 steel tool in preference for the M42 and V10 steels. This of course depends on several other factors which might have me pick up the Ellsworth for the flute shape and size or because I am too involved in the work to walk over and touch up the edge on my other gouges and it happens to be sharp and at hand.

I still use my M2 Sorby spindle gouges, though that is a different discussion perhaps.

[Roger Chandler]

I turn bowls, boxes, hollowforms, spindlework..... like peppermills, occasionally, and other type spindle work as a request comes in or inspiration hits me. I am similar to Alan Trout in that I use a "V" shaped flute the most ........with the nose ground to about 47 degrees and for a bottom feeder about 60 degrees. The V shaped flute I prefer is a modified V like on the Serious gouge I did the review on and on my Thompson.........talking to Doug personally on the last one I ordered he recommended to me the 'Jimmy Clews" signature model because he said the flute most resembled what was at the time I got it, my old Sorby.

I have a 3/4" U shaped Thompson gouge for hogging out when roughing...........but I find most of the time even for roughing out, I like the 5/8" V flute from Doug or the Serious Ultimate for that as well.........The 3/4" just seems to be overkill for most of what I turn........on difficult woods like hickory or pecan that has become hard, that 3/4" size will really help take the beating those wood try to throw at you!

For my skew gouges.......they are just plain HHS that came with my original set except for the big Alan Lacer skew I got..........I hardly ever use it, but find it comes in handy every so often if I want to do a planing cut such as on a rolling pin.

My scrapers at present are HHS.............I want to get one from Serious in time, when I wear the ones I have down a good bit........but it will take some time and a good number of projects before that happens.........I grind the edges of my scrapers on my 60 grit Norton 3x wheel.......it seems that they do a pretty good job with that grind and changing the platform to the gouge side of my wolverine setup does not seem to be needed for scrapers to put an edge on them with my CBN 180 grit........although I have done it a few times, the cut does not seem better with the CBN grind on the scraper.

Now that I have the Serious Ultimate gouges, the modified V flute is pretty much like the Thompson and Sorby.........and ejects shavings pretty well and allows me to have the wings as well. I do not grind my wings as far back as the Ellsworth gouges I have seen, perhaps known also as the "Irish" grind...........although mine are swept back some. The reason for this is I do shear cuts and scrapes on my bowls and hollowforms. The shear cuts allow for me to get a great surface from which to start the sanding process, and the shear scrapes allow me to refine the form to remove any small high spots or to blend cuts together so that it looks seamless.

As to metals..........I do not claim any knowledge beyond what is commonly known to most experienced turners. I will say that I really like the longevity of the cutting edge from the 10V metals and whatever the alloy compound on the Serious Ultimate gouge is...........I have had no issue with brittleness or "toughness" with the new Ultimate gouges.........they are harder than other gouges I have, but sharpening has not been a problem at all.........a simple touch up once you establish your grind is all it takes.........with the CBN wheel it gives a fine edge with a lasting sharpness compared to my HHS Sorby.

I don't mind sharpening, but I like for my grind to last as long as it can without needed to stop and sharpen.........I do however usually stop and sharpen for my last pass or two.........just leaves a better surface and I turn up the speed a bit if possible also.......you get the best surface that way!

[robert baccus]

The "best" gouge is the next one I can con myself into Buying. I was this way when buying Bass plugs.

[Dale Miner]

Del Stubbs used a water pipe.

I started out woodturning by turning forms to spin metal on. With no wood turning experience at all, frustration and catches were the norm. My son brought me a Del Stubbs dvd and the light bulb went on. Del talked about and turned a bit with his first gouge made from a pipe.

Out to the shop, the edge of a 4 1/2" grinder, a piece of 4340, and a quench in oil later, and there was a 11/16" diameter more or less U flute bowl gouge needing a handle. That was my first bowl gouge. The flute was about 2" long, and went through several nose profiles from convetional to a long swept back. There may have been a catch or two along the way. I learned to turn with that U flute, and as a result prefer a U flute with a fingernail grind. But, when asked by a newbie as to what style flute they should buy, the answer is a fingernail V flute with a generous radius in the bottom. Reason being, a V flute is easier to learn on. A V flute with a generous radius runs a close second on my preference list.

I find a U flute gives a cleaner cut, especially on the inside of a bowl, but is very unforgiving for presentation errors. I don't care at all for a V flute that has a tight radius. They clog to easy and seem to me to leave more torn fibers. I don't do much shear scraping on the outside of vessels with a gouge, but find the edge profile of a swept back V flute or especially a parabolic flute works better than a fingernail grind of a U flute. For slight form corrections on the outside of vessels, a handle down bevel rubbing shear cut is my preferred cut, although it can sometimes cause 'lift out' (as opposed to tear out).

[Bob Bergstrom]

I don't use any jigs to sharpen so my grinding can vary considerably? I have experimented with very narrow nose and 2" swept back wings to 70 or 80 degree nose bevels. I have 3/4 and 7/8" "V" gouges with long swept back wings. They are for roughing out bowls quickly. Both can hog off very large curls. I have a 1" "U" that I tried with swept back wings. Not near as effective. Ground the wings vertical and use it on the bottom of deep bowls. Very stout and works far over the tool rest. Most of my gouges are now either powder or cobalt metal sharpen on CBN wheels. I probably sharpen more often than ever. I can not work with dull edges anymore. Facets on the bevel are not a problem as long as the are far enough from the bevel. Finding a proper cutting angle for the particular type of gouge may be more important than the profile of the gouge. Whether it's a water pipe or D-Way, when presented properly they both can produce curls

[Harry Robinette]

Myself I like a V shape gouge for hogging out and a U for my smoothing work.My main gouges are my 1/2" and 5/8" Thompsons.I also use a Sorby 1/2" TiN that I use for very fine cuts. I find all of the steels work well if there sharpened right for your style, I use mostly 10v tools but also have some HSS high Rockwell 63 to 65. Sharpening is the key, try different grinds and find one that fells comfortable. Everyone is a different height,has a different stands,their machine is set-up different so everyone needs to find a grind that fit's them and fells comfortable.
Tools are personnel believe it or not.The length of them,the weight,and the fell of them in your hand all make a difference. So check out some different tools ask others what they use,and like and try one of their gouges.
Hope this helps.

[Michelle Rich]

Best? I'm just happy with one that works..a sharpened pipe? a benjamin's best? don't care, as long as they work. If I can achieve my goal, it's good enough.

[Bill Blasic]

First off I start by saying that I use to help Doug sell his tools, not because I was paid well but because I really liked his tools. A few points from my experience. I sharpened my tools with AO (and occasionally still do) for years. I recently acquired a couple of CBN wheels and the main difference I have found between both types of sharpening is that with the CBN it is faster and I take off less steel. The CBN is more repeatable than AO because it does not wear like AO. I feel I achieved comparable sharpness with AO or CBN on 10V or 15V. 15V is more expensive and harder than 10V but that also means that it is a lot chippier (the sharp edge will fracture a lot easier). I think 10V is a better all around choice. I have a Serious Ultimate 5/8 bowl gouge and I find it to be no better than what I use which does not make it bad but means there are less expensive tools that are as good or better than this secret steel in my opinion. I have never used a D-Way tool but John Keeton says they are a good tool and I respect his judgement. V vs U - I feel the V gives me much more control as the U is more aggressive and wants to self feed into the cut. Also you can put big wings on the V but if you do that on a U you end up with a tool that does not cut. The Thompson V is a little wider at the bottom because Doug used the Glaser tools and the Glaser V had a tendency to clog and his do not. The Jimmy Clewes tools are not any narrower than the regular V they have a deeper flute which Jimmy says gives them a more parabolic shape. This is the same reasoning for the new Jamieson tool that he says is neither a V or a U. I'm sure that there are lots of good tools out there that I've not used and I won't because I'm happy with what I have. No matter what tool you use learning to sharpen with a repeatable grind that you like is most important.
Bill

[Darrell Duvall]

Del Stubbs used a water pipe.

I am a new turner and I think I use a gouge like a water pipe. I bought some used tools and used lathe and I have some bowl gouges of different lengths and different diameters. Are they for different purposes? They don't have the same shape on the end.

[Roger Chandler]

I have been away from the computer this morning, out and about taking care of administrative work.............when I got back and turned on the computer, I had an email from Scott Trumbo from Serious Toolworks.........he asked that I post this to clarify remarks on the other thread about parabolic gouge shapes and their ultimate gouge........here is the email verbatim.........

Good Morning Roger,
I need to offer a correction and apology for the error in my previous explanation. On John Keeton's new thread you may want to post some or all of the comment below.

I read John's response to my comment. First of all, I really like his leadership in the perspective of "Do not simply tell other readers which brand of product you like, explain the reasons you like this brand." Well done John. Then I thought, "I have never researched a parabola, my image has been developed by what i think others are describing. This is not great communication process and I need to understand what is being said." I googled "parabola" and some math from decades ago returned to my mind. My summary on bowl gouge flutes would state this, nearly all bowl gouges except the Thompson U are somewhere between a narrow V and a parabolic shape. The differences are in the flute trough depth and width..... Finally, I agree with John Keeton in that the flute shape affects shaving discharge more than anything else. The nose profile is affected by the depth of the flute and the angle of the nose grind. I am a long term bowl turner, and I grind my Ultimate gouge noses now at 60 degrees. I apologize for all confusion my previous comment caused and truly hope these comments have added some clarity and useful info on bowl gouge design and performance.

Thanks,

Scott w

[Brian Kent]

Still new enough to this to have very little to offer to this discussion, but there is one thing I think I am noticing.

I think the HSS that is in Benjamin's Best is springier than my powdered steel. I am so early in this hobby that I might just be talking about an imaginary difference. But so far I like the powdered steel better because it seems to vibrate a little less.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Care to contribute?"

Too late.. I already shot myself...

[Robert Henrickson]

I prefer more open flute profiles. I get in trouble with narrower flutes (so-called ‘V’ vs ‘U’) choking – I have recently even had trouble with a bowl gouge when I was turning dry curly white oak yesterday and making shear cuts. I certainly wasn't taking aggressive cuts since the curl loved to chip out (the vendor made a pass through a planer ). I managed to avoid that chipping, with gentle cuts. I actually had less trouble with the flute choking on that same piece of curly white oak when I was making more aggressive cuts, doing some hollowing.

Even for bowls 12-14" in diameter I find that a ½" (3/8" flute) gouge can remove plenty of wood. I own a 5/8" (½" flute) bowl gouge which I used to use much more than I have recently. I have found that the greater size does not make a great deal of difference in how readily I can remove a given volume of wood.

If only the flute names / descriptions were consistent from brand to brand. Since they are not, what I would like to see in sales listings for bowl gouges is a END-ON VIEW of the flute so that I could SEE what the shape of the flute actually is. As it is, ‘V’ or ‘U’ or ‘parabolic’ or what have you mean different things to different people, and the same term gets applied to differing profiles – the terms are essentially meaningless except in the most general sense.

And variations in style of grind will vary the performance of a given flute profile.

I am far less worried about the specs of the metal than I am with the flute profile. It takes no more than 15 seconds total for me to resharpen (stopping cutting to resuming cutting at the lathe), but if the shavings won’t clear, it doesn’t matter how sharp it is or how well the edge resists dulling. I can't tell you what specific metal type any of my gouges or other tools are -- just that they do the job.

Ultimately, the ‘best’ is what performs best for you. The three bowl gouges I use almost exclusively are -- one of each -- a Thompson, a Packard, and a Oneway. Three brands, two sizes, three flute profiles (but none 'V').

[John Keeton]

There is an older thread that discusses profiles - http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?86559-Bowl-Gouge-Flute-Profiles Unfortunately, some of the images are no longer available. However, the OP did some "castings" of a OneWay gouge that provided a nice comparison.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/624fd927.jpg

Might be interesting if others would do the same or, if possible, post a head on pic of the profile of various gouge brands/types.

In another post some years back, there was a pic posted showing the flute profile of Thompson's V and U gouges. The gouges were ground back by Doug to show that the tip should mimic the profile of the flute when sharpening the tool.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=176831&d=1294421418&thumb=1

[Robert Henrickson]

Those are the sorts of illustrations that are really informative. I can tell from the Thompson comparison photo that the 'U' would have to be my choice. That is close to the Packard gouge which has long been my favorite.

[Jack Mincey]

I have turned with benjamins best, Packard brand, Ellsworth, Thompson, P&N, and Hamilton. I own bowl gouges made by the last 4 company's. While they are all great I seem to always turn with a HSS 5/8" Ellsworth gouge. I have it in both the powder metal, and HSS and just seem to prefer the HSS. It gets sharper in my humble opinion and I don't mind sharping more often if it cuts better and easier. I like the V flute of the Ellsworth better than any I've tried. I actually gave away one of my P&N bowl gouges because the v was so step that it would stop up with wood easily. Now for spindle work other than detail I do most of my turning with a 5/8" forged spindle gouge. I have three and use one made of HSS and one made of carbon steel most of the time. They both hold and edge and cut great. I think that the rush to make tools that need sharpening less frequent has hurt the world of turning some. Good old carbon steel tools can work great and would be cheaper than any of the steels used today. As far as detail spindle work I can grind about any 3/8" spindle gouge to work for me.
Jack

[Jamie Donaldson]

I learned to turn with the Sorby M2 bowl gouges when I started 28 yrs. ago, and that is still the open flute profile that I favor for most applications. I have found little working difference in the M4 Oneway and M42 D-Way alloys, and for me they are very similar in edge holding characteristics to the V10(A 11) in the Thompson gouges. There is a world of hype and false virtue claims associated with the selling of tools, and the best tool is the sharp one that best does the job intended. Many turners should standardize with a specific tool that accomplishes the job to best advantage, and spend less time jumping from tool to tool in mid process. Its most often the tool holding the tool that "gets 'er done!"

[robert baccus]

I'm an old -art and have accumulated some 70 odd turning tools. My favorites are easily the old Glasers and the Thompson's for sharp and long wearing edges. It seems to me a function of V gouges has not been stressed here. I have sharpened some down to 65 deg on the tip which makes a decent bottom feeder and a long side blade. Nose cutting to me is superior in U shaped tools and are my favorite everyday. Years ago I obtained a 100#+ piece of pheasant wood which promply turned the edges of every high dollar tool I had--merely shined a ring. Started going through very old cheap unlabeled tools of any shape and behold. An old rusty 7/8" shallow spindle gouge just ate it up like an apple.!!!I tried several odd grinds on the good tools but only the 7/8 piece of -rap finished out the whole bowl. I also stone grind but follow with a fine diamond power hone--sharp yeah.

[Curt Fuller]

That gouge (or any other tool) that has a comfortable handle and feels good in your hands, has good balance, is sharp and is sharpened with the grind that your muscle memory recognizes as it moves across the wood, and fits the purpose for what it's being used. Most of us would struggle using another turners tools and most other turners would struggle using ours, even if they were the exact same gouge. Every gouge I've purchased has come with the factory grind which I have immediately reshaped to my liking. Then it becomes my gouge and I begin to like it.

[Bill Wyko]

I would also like to point out something I just recently discovered, i find that when sharpening on a flat surfaced sharpener, my gouge seems to keep its sharp edge much longer. It also seems to feel better, I don't know if its my imagination or not but as long as it seems that way, it is that way. Over the past few years I've almost exclusively used Glaser but I have used Sorby, Thompson, Crown and a few others. After going to the AAW symposium, I can say, everyone seems to be upping their game. So many beautiful turning tools and articulating hollowing systems that are light years from what was available just a few years ago. What I would like to do some day is have what is considered the top 5 or so gouges right in front of me and give them all a try one after the other. What would be really cool, would be to cover the handles & not know the tool brand in my hand. Some handles of course would be a dead give away like the Glaser & the Thompson so that would be almost impossible, but fun none the less.

[Roger Chandler]

I would also like to point out something I just recently discovered, i find that when sharpening on a flat surfaced sharpener, my gouge seems to keep its sharp edge much longer. It also seems to feel better, I don't know if its my imagination or not but as long as it seems that way, it is that way. Over the past few years I've almost exclusively used Glaser but I have used Sorby, Thompson, Crown and a few others. After going to the AAW symposium, I can say, everyone seems to be upping their game. So many beautiful turning tools and articulating hollowing systems that are light years from what was available just a few years ago. What I would like to do some day is have what is considered the top 5 or so gouges right in front of me and give them all a try one after the other. What would be really cool, would be to cover the handles & not know the tool brand in my hand. Some handles of course would be a dead give away like the Glaser & the Thompson so that would be almost impossible, but fun none the less.

Bill.........when I did the review on the Serious Toolworks ULTIMATE gouge, I did a piece right before that with the Thompson, Crown cryogenic, Serious Ultimate and Sorby all right in front of me, while using them all on the same piece of wood, and taking very similar cuts.......just to compare apples to apples, so to speak.

I found the Serious Ultimate gouge and the Thompson to cut the best and of course have the best longevity on an edge. To me, with my CBN wheel, I got the most refined edge with the Serious Ultimate gouge, with the Thompson a close second, but the metal in the Serious gouge got a smoother bevel finish.

My crown cryogenic gouge did very well, but was slightly behind the Ultimate and Thompson in edge holding longevity......the Sorby HHS was not even in the running for edge longevity or smooth bevel compared to the Ultimate from Serious Toolworks or the Thompson. All these I tested on the same piece of wood [maple] were V flutes.

I think the Serious Toolworks Ultimate gouge and the Thompson's are on a par with one another in edge longevity and cutting results.........at least that was my experience.

On handles.........I have Thompson handles with my name engraved by Doug.......sweet! The Cam-lock from Serious is the best I have ever had in my hands...............it has become my "go to" setup most of the time for my gouges......I should say, that I can use my Thompson gouges in the Serious cam-lock handle as well as my Serious gouges, and do so when I want to use more than one gouge without having to stop and sharpen.

[Reed Gray]

Roger,
Have you ever tried one of the D Way M42 (or whatever that steel is that he uses?

robo hippy

[Roger Chandler]

Roger,
Have you ever tried one of the D Way M42 (or whatever that steel is that he uses?

robo hippy

No, Reed.........I have not had the opportunity as of yet. The gouges I have all have come as a bit of a learning curve and acquisitions made in a quest for really good tool. I have only been turning seriously for about 5 years now, and a lot of that time has been a learning process. I am at a point now that I understand the mechanics and differences in a lot of what is on the market. I hope to try one of Dave's gouges in the future, just to see how it would do for me...........every one speaks highly of it that I have heard.

Please know that my comment above in reply to Bill Wyko's post was about the "comparison experiment" I did with the gouges I have on hand.......and the results I got. That is not to state any tool I have is superior to another makers tools...........just the observations of one turner with the tools he has experience with.........of course like they say, "your mileage may vary!" That being said.........I do think my results are in the ballpark of what most turners can expect with the gouges I have referenced!

[Jeff Gilfor]

Systematically, when comparing tools of the same type, you need to split the comparison along several variables: Shape, Steel type, and edge-holding. Many would argue that edge-holding and steel type are the same, but it have found that, due to tempering methods, two tools of the same metal may be different in edge holding capabilities.

this makes comparisons, even in the most rigorous of testing, rather subjective. Of course though, that is why there are so many choices out there. This is much more an art than science.

I just purchased a 1/2 bowl gouge from Dave at D-way. Just checking out all the alternatives.

i had been pending all my tool money with Doug Thompson, and was extremely satisfied (still am), but wanted to check out the competition and see if I could notice any difference. I tried the D-Way and the new Hurricane 10V gouge.

As far as steel itself, other than color (Doug's are that matte black oxidized finish), I believe they are all 10% vanadium! hardened to at least Rockwell mid 60's.

All the flutes seem relatively similar. I compared the U-shaped from each, and the all appear to be parabolic. The flute depths vary slightly, with the Hurricane being the deepest.

for push cuts, I can't really tell the difference. For pull or shearing cuts with my long swept back wings (modified Irish grind at 50 degrees with nose angle at about 60 degrees), I feel that the Hurricane is better than the Thompson, which is slightly better than the D-way. Not enough difference to steer me one way or the other.

As far as edge holding, the Thompson still beats the pack. The D-way is only slightly shorter, and the Hurricane seems the same as that.

BTW, I have been using the Sorby Proedge system to sharpen them to 220 grit for the comparison.

As always, your milage may vary.

[Prashun Patel]

I have not reached the level of proficiency as most of the posters on this thread. But I will say that the only thing that matters to me at this stage is a tool that holds its edge. I own a V and a U bowl gouge and I cannot for the life of me tell the difference between their performance. My Thompsons hold a better edge than my Benjamin's Bests. However, I do not believe that getting a better tool from here will make me a better turner. I think there's a broad distinction to be drawn between 'good' and 'bad' gouges, but the distinction between 'good' and 'best' seems moot.

[Jamie Donaldson]

Roger, your comments about a "smoother" bevel between different gouges are not valid if they were both sharpened on the same CBM wheel. The surface of the wheel produces the same surface "texture" and patterns on a tool bevel regardless of alloy or hardness. Of course the bevel smoothness has only a small effect on the longevity of the cutting edge, and that can lead to a variety of opinions when objective testing procedures are not applied. I do like the smoother finish from my 180 CBN wheel when compared to the old Norton SG 120's I used for years!

[John Keeton]

This is starting to sound like the "sharpening wars" that occur on the Neander Forum!!!:D I wouldn't suggest posting generalized comments about how each steel sharpens there. The answers might be very enlightening!

On a serious note, Roger could have been referring to the level of flute smoothness, though I don't know that to be true. If so, that certainly affects the sharpness of the edge.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, your comments about a "smoother" bevel between different gouges are not valid if they were both sharpened on the same CBM wheel. The surface of the wheel produces the same surface "texture" and patterns on a tool bevel regardless of alloy or hardness. Of course the bevel smoothness has only a small effect on the longevity of the cutting edge, and that can lead to a variety of opinions when objective testing procedures are not applied. I do like the smoother finish from my 180 CBN wheel when compared to the old Norton SG 120's I used for years!

Not trying to sharpen the edge on any "sharpening wars" as John mentioned above, but an honest question for Jamie.........

You say that "smoother bevel between different gouges not valid if both sharpened on same CBN wheel.........well they were in my comparrison [not scientific for sure, but what I saw and believe to be true] my question is this.......Would not a different metal compound abrade differently on the same wheel ........I do know for sure, but the bevel area of the wings and nose of the Serious Ultimate gouge was indeed smoother than my Thompson, enough to notice the smoother texture! Very noticeable compared to my Sorby HHS for example

In no way am I trying to be argumentative, but I think it could be a different way the metal abrades off that might explain the difference I noticed. I will caveat this by saying I have no way other than my eyes and brain that tell me this is the case, but no objective way to measure in a scientifically standardized manner.

No wars intended John! :D;) Concepts around turning and sharpening are always good fodder for learning, don't you think! :) I was referring to the bevel on the wings and nose........not the flute, just to be clear!

[Reed Gray]

I will admit that I found the concept of two different metals coming off the same grinding wheel with two different finishes/surfaces, a bit strange. It could be possible I suppose. My guess is that if there is a noticeable difference, it would depend on the size of the metal particles, and if the grinding wheel as it sharpens is taking off individual particles, or scraping/cutting the particles down in pieces. There have been discussions about which type of steel or metal can take the finest edge, and it seems like the answer to that one is more in the realm of you can get the same fineness of edge, but it is easier on some than on others. I am going to have to ponder this one, unless some one can explain it to me. The only real thing I know about most metals is how to grind and sharpen it.....

robo hippy

[Jon Prouty]

I will admit that I found the concept of two different metals coming off the same grinding wheel with two different finishes/surfaces, a bit strange. It could be possible I suppose. My guess is that if there is a noticeable difference, it would depend on the size of the metal particles, and if the grinding wheel as it sharpens is taking off individual particles, or scraping/cutting the particles down in pieces. There have been discussions about which type of steel or metal can take the finest edge, and it seems like the answer to that one is more in the realm of you can get the same fineness of edge, but it is easier on some than on others. I am going to have to ponder this one, unless some one can explain it to me. The only real thing I know about most metals is how to grind and sharpen it.....

robo hippy

Food for thought - do different woods sanded with the same paper exhibit different scratch patterns or roughness? Just a thought.

JP

[Reed Gray]

Jon,
That is like which steel can take the best edge. If you do your sanding right, they will have pretty much the same surface look. Difference is in the density of the wood as some will glow more than others when sanded to the same final grit. Some take more sanding to get there as well, but it seems that most of the time spend is in the coarser grits. I have been sanding a lot of bowls lately, and since it is brainless work, I am pondering a lot of things, like how much water evaporates off the California Aquaduct every day, thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of gallons????? Drove past that on the way to Phoenix.

robo hippy