Carriage House garage with living quarters above and shop below

[Roger Feeley]

I need some reality checks.

My only child now makes more than my wife and I ever did together. She married a year ago, they are planning kids and just made an offer on a house in an area that is unaffordable to us. They desperately want us to move close to them in the DC area. Our house in the Kansas City area will net us about $250K and that doesn't buy spit in Fairfax County. The problem isn't the buildings, it's the land. Lots can be a half a million.

So we are faced with a dilemma. We can life farther out where our money buys more.... or.... I had this idea which I have not broached with them.

The house they made an offer on is on a 1 acre lot. My daughter thinks it would be a good idea for them to just give us a piece of that and let us build. I think it would mess up the property. After all, a lot of the value in the house is in the land.

I noticed that they have kind of a crappy detached garage. I'm thinking that we could take our money, tear down that garage and put in a carriage house. The main house is 150 years old so a carriage house might go over ok with the "Historical Architectural Review Board" in Falls Church.

If I were to do this, there would be a 3 car garage below and our living quarters above. I'm thinking something like this:

http://www.thehouseplanshop.com/053g-0018.php

But then my idea is to also put in a basement. We could use something like Spancrete pre-cast forms.

So, I know I'm crazy. Am I stupid too? There would be some huge upsides:
-- Living close to my kid and grandkids
-- a 1200 sq ft shop
-- great area. We consider it a big upgrade.
-- Enhances the main property value
-- Doesn't subtract substantially from the lot
-- Living close to my kid and grandkids

A downside is that we would be giving up square feet. Our current house is about 2500 sq feet but we have long known that we really don't use a lot of it. We aren't formal living and dining people. The living room is an office an the dining room has the Bowflex. We still have one guest bedroom but the others are an office for me and a storage room for some antiques.

We think we can live just fine in about a thousand square feet.

I know there are plenty of hurdles:
-- The social risks of moving onto the same property as your kid.
-- How do you sever the relationship and move?
-- Getting past architectural review
-- Zoning

All those aside, is this doable? How much more money would I have to kick in? The house plan site estimates that I can build the carriage house on a slab for 150-200K. The basement is the big unknown.

What would it cost to excavate a basement and put a garage floor over it compared to a slab?

Thanks to all,
Roger

[Jim Andrew]

You can put prestressed panels over a basement for the floor. There are many buildings like that here in Kansas. Helps with the noise as well. You might want to look at the taxes in the county you are looking at. Where my son lives in LA, taxes are higher than the rent back here. Of course, a crackerbox house is 1.5 million in LA or Santa Monica.

[Roger Feeley]

The cracker box comment applies in DC too. A lot of the houses in Fairfax County, VA were built in the '40s - '60s and look dated to me. They have a term for them in DC. They are called, "Mid-Century Modern". I found that amusing.

I've been looking at MLS listings in the DC area for over a year and I am still having a hard time adjusting my expectations. I can't explain it but I would feel less screwed to pay more for the same than to pay the same for less. If I look 40 minutes away, I can do much better. But my wife wants to provide regular day care for the grandkids and 40 minutes each way is a long commute. I realize that 40 minutes is nothing you you east-coasters but here in KC it's considered kind of silly.

I'm used to a very open plan. I'm sitting in a family room that is really a kitchen, dining, and family room in one long open space. The space is about 40' long and 15' wide. We really like the open plan. That's hard to find in Mid-Century Modern without messing with the structure.

Another thing that is almost impossible to find is an unfinished basement. Generally, I don't like them. My desire for a wood shop aside, around here, finished basements tend to be media rooms, poker rooms, or play rooms that look like good ideas but seldom get used. When land values are so high, like in DC, owners squeeze every inch of living area out to the house that they can. Unused space is almost non-existent. I'm not very enthusiastic about buying a 6 bedroom house so I can 'de-finish' the basement.

[Mel Fulks]

Around here the old carriage houses were built two story ,upstairs used as help living space. That style might work best
for your situation and would probably get zoning approval easier than something that is clearly another house. And make
a more practical shop.

[David Weaver]

If your kid sells the house for a job change, relocation, buyout whatever, and you don't have the house deeded separate from the carriage house, what happens to you and the money you spent on it?

[Roger Feeley]

David, that's certainly an elephant in the room and something I already knew about.

My real question to this group is about the relative cost of building a carriage house with a basement vs one on a slab.

[Bob Cooper]

Is is on a slope so that a basement is easy? What I did was to build a detached 3 car garage and the workshop is at the same level as the garage -- ie if u drove your cars forward thru the wall you'd be in the workshop. That made for a 45' long workshop. Then put an apt above the pair. In my case I am on a slope so I have a basement too which is where my dust collector lives.

Id id go for living near the kids and just deal with the move issue as you have to...

[Roger Feeley]

Hi Bob, I think the plot is level. The idea is to replace the existing garage with something more useful while not increasing the footprint by very much. Hence the concept of going vertical. Shop below, living quarters above and a garage in the middle. Seems like a good idea to me. I particularly like the allocation of space. About a third for living, a third for garage and a third for a shop. Seems like a fair distribution, too.

[Jim Andrew]

I gave my daughter a piece of land on my farm, so they could build and would be close to us. My wife takes care of the 2 granddaughters on her days off. My wife adjusted her schedule so she works when my daughter is off, and vice versa. I have enjoyed having the kids here while they are growing up. They used to like going to the farm with me, but now that they are bigger, not so much. I have to pay them now for any help at the farm. They are involved in sports, swimming lessons, and just don't have much time for me now. They are 9 and 7, will be in 4th and 2nd grade this coming year.

[Von Bickley]

I would check with the local building inspection department and zoning before I made any plans.

[Jim Neeley]

+1 on Zoning, as there may be severe restrictions / costs associated with having a habitable area beneath the garage. Cal takes it's earthquakes seriously and may either preclude a garage over your shop or place the requirements so high as to again be unaffordable.

Jim

[Scott T Smith]

I think that it's a good concept. Zoning approval will be key. I would not label the basement as a "shop, but instead "storage". Also would plan on some type of walk-down ramp to it for ease of material ingress and egress.

You will need a very substantial shop ceiling in order to withstand the concentrated weight of the vehicles parked above.

Talk to some local contractors to find out how easy it is to dig a basement in this area (or check to see if any other houses in the neighborhood have a basement.

The nice thing about a basement shop is that the temp stays consistent, and the noise heard by the neighbors is largely abated. I think that I would plan on a small room on the back side of the garage for dust collection and air compressor.

[Tom M King]

Go stay there, or somewhere nearby, for several weeks, and see how you take to the place. I worked there for several months this past Spring, and was never so glad to leave anywhere in my life. I have no idea what Kansas City is like, but DC puts a new definition on "gridlock". Where I live, ten miles is ten minutes. Up there, it can mean an hour or several.

[Roger Feeley]

Good suggestions all. I'm not to the point of laying things out yet. I do have a few hurdles:
1. They have to get the house
2. they have to agree to this scheme
3. Zoning
4. about a zillion other things

[Steve Milito]

DC property values are outrageous but there are properties in rural Virginia, Maryland, and Southern Pennsylvania that are far more affordable. You won't be in walking distance but if an hour or ninety minute drive are acceptable you can find something in your price range,

[Richard Shaefer]

there is a pretty good book out there called "inlaws, outlaws and granny flats" that discusses all your issues in good detail.
what you're looking to do is actually fairly common, and even more so in affluent neighborhoods.

[Michael Yadfar]

You say your daughter doesn't have the house yet, right? Maybe something you can do is explain to them your situation and get them to move a bit farther out of the city to make things more affordable . I live in the Philadelphia suburbs and a lot of people that live out here commute to work somewhere in the city. My neighbor works in Harrisburg and takes the train there everyday; and people that work in Philly only have a 20-30 minute drive. I'm not saying live in my suburb, but less dense suburbs outside DC may be a good option. The area I live in is very nice. Land is still expensive, $50,000-100,000 an acre, but that's not bad comparing to what you mentioned.

Back to your orignal question with issues with zoning and family disputes put aside, I think that's a viable plan. Another thing is maybe you can use the garage space as a shop. With the cars I own, I would rather have the garage as shop space than car space. If your daughter makes a lot that may not fly over well with her Mercedes. Another thing you can consider is having movable equipment and just moving out cars when you work. With a basement, another thing to consider is having it ground level or maybe having a ramp. Definitely outside acess. Bringing a 1000 pound planer down a basement isn't fun

[Curt Harms]

I would check with the local building inspection department and zoning before I made any plans.

And a Real Estate Attorney. Figure out ownership in case of a split of some sort and they might have some insights as to zoning, what will fly with the H.A.R.B. etc.

[Steve Milito]

I confused. Do you mean you absolutely want to live with them on the same property or that you were only doing so because you can't afford a house in DC?

[Jim Andrew]

When I was in the building business, I built a house a few times where a couple would have us rough in plumbing etc so they could have an apartment in the basement for their kids or other family. If your daughter were building a new home, it might be easier to get all this stuff worked out with the building officials before starting the project. Just don't tell them more than you have to. That "storage" idea for a garage basement was good. And in most towns an apartment for family could be ok, but not as a rental unless the lot has the proper zoning.

[Roger Feeley]

I'm flexible. It would be a bit of a culture shock for us because we have no experience living in close proximity to family. My siblings all moved 500 miles away. I moved about 70 miles from where I grew up. Same story with my wife.

But I'm willing to try it. Living across the parking lot is a lot different from living in the same building.

That said, if DC were a lot cheaper, we wouldn't be looking at a co-housing scheme so hard, maybe.

[Roger Feeley]

It in my Amazon wish list. thanks!

[Steve Milito]

I'm flexible. It would be a bit of a culture shock for us because we have no experience living in close proximity to family. My siblings all moved 500 miles away. I moved about 70 miles from where I grew up. Same story with my wife.

But I'm willing to try it. Living across the parking lot is a lot different from living in the same building.

That said, if DC were a lot cheaper, we wouldn't be looking at a co-housing scheme so hard, maybe.

Housing is much more affordable if you are willing to live 70 miles out of DC. Shenandoah region is beautiful. People like Hagerstown. The region between Gettysburg and Baltimore is very pretty and semi-rural. Across the Chesapeake in Maryland there are areas that can be pretty and affordable.
You probably should do some day trips from DC to see if you'd rather live a bit out of town, but close enough to be involved in each others life.

[Roger Feeley]

Thanks to all that responded here. After doing some research, I have come to the general conclusion that a basement under a garage is a really good idea. The difference in price I am seeing leads me to believe that the price per square foot is between $10 and $20 which I view as a bargain. If the house goes through, we will definitely broach the subject with the kids.

Someone suggested an outside entrance to the basement. While that would be great, I suspect that the city wouldn't allow anything that could be considered an egress that would make the space usable as permanent living quarters. Besides, this is a carriage house and I wouldn't want to advertise the presence of the basement. On this property, there is no back side to hid stuff like that. My solution to that is to block off some space and put in a trap door and a winch. Of course there would be an extra wide stairway too. But I think a way to winch heavy stuff up and down would be very desirable. I know the riggers that I am going to hire to get my Sawstop ICS out of my current basement would appreciate an arrangement like that.

[Roger Feeley]

Steve, you are of course right. But we are both on the cusp of full retirement and my wife really wants to provide regular child care. Even a 40 minute commute is too far for her. I have been looking within 20 minutes and the prices are still very high.

We've long since agreed that we would rather downsize. We've thought long and hard about how much of our current house we really use and concluded that we can easily live in 1,000 square feet. If we can swing being on the kids property, we get a place with the size we like, proximity to little ones, the use of the pool (without cleaning it). Choosing the design ourselves means we don't have to take any rooms we wouldn't use (formal dining room). Annnd I double the size of my shop.

[Steve Milito]

Steve, you are of course right. But we are both on the cusp of full retirement and my wife really wants to provide regular child care. Even a 40 minute commute is too far for her. I have been looking within 20 minutes and the prices are still very high.

We've long since agreed that we would rather downsize. We've thought long and hard about how much of our current house we really use and concluded that we can easily live in 1,000 square feet. If we can swing being on the kids property, we get a place with the size we like, proximity to little ones, the use of the pool (without cleaning it). Choosing the design ourselves means we don't have to take any rooms we wouldn't use (formal dining room). Annnd I double the size of my shop.
You can't put a price on time with grandchildren.