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John Coloccia
06-21-2014, 9:59 AM
My front steps have deteriorated and they need to be replaced. Quotes are coming in about $1600. They're deteriorating after a rough winter and I might actually be able to get most of it out with just a sledge hammer, but I could always just rent a jackhammer and get them out like that. Then I'd like to pour new ones. I've never done a larger pour before. I haven't accurately measured but the steps are probably a little more than 1/2 yard of concrete....just guestimating, maybe .7 yards or something like that. Let's just call it a yard for sake of argument.

I think the largest sized mixer I can rent is about 9 cubic feet, so I'd need to mix at least 2 loads to get enough concrete. Can I mix, pour, mix, pour, or do I have to mix and pour in one shot? If I need to do it in one shot and have it delivered, is it economical to have less than a yard delivered? There's no truck access so they'll either have to run a trough or we'll be wheelbarrowing and shoveling a lot of concrete.

Any help is most appreciated.

Jamie Buxton
06-21-2014, 10:06 AM
I've broken up concrete steps once with a sledgehammer. Even when I was young and strong, that was a mistake. Today I'd rent an electric demolition hammer. Power tools are good.

You only need the outer few inches of the new steps to be new concrete. So save the rubble from the old steps to put back inside the new steps. You'll buy and place less concrete, and save on the disposal effort.

Bob Vavricka
06-21-2014, 10:21 AM
Mix and pour, Mix and pour. Work the two batches a little into each other after you pour. The mixing process isn't that slow and you will be fine. It's how then did it before Redi-mix.

Shawn Pixley
06-21-2014, 10:26 AM
I've broken concrete with a sledge hammer and with a jackhammer. If the surface below the concrete is at all spongy, use the jackhammer.

For the pour in two stages, I'd be worried about a cold joint between the two pours. To avoid this you want to get the second pour in as quickly as possible. Have you got your rebar planned out?

Judson Green
06-21-2014, 10:36 AM
A lot of folks are using fiber mesh these days. You toss em in when your mixing. If you trowel too much you can work em up to the surface. I'd do a broom surface on the landing and steps, it'll give a little texture/grip and the mesh won't be as noticeable. After a year, maybe less, the mesh that is poking out of the surface will bit broken off.

John, have you got a picture of your current steps? And have you done any concrete work?



291683

Mike Lassiter
06-21-2014, 10:48 AM
If the surface is crumbing and deteriorated maybe all you need to do is break away what is crumbing and get some high strength patching mix in a bag and trowel that back for the finished surface without doing a total demolition. Surface fractures let water in that freezes and breaks the concrete apart. It doesn't mean the damage is all the way through the concrete. Possibly just the top surface layer, which you can repair much easier and cheaper than completely rebuilding the steps.

steven c newman
06-21-2014, 11:20 AM
A few ideas I have learned over the years

HATE cold joints, they will fail

Knock ALL the bad/losse, adn otherwise "have-to -go" stuff away, cleanit as good as you can.

Drill a few holes into what is left. Add a tapcon into each hole. Do NOT drive them all the way down, leave them proud at least half to the top of the new surface. Get a roll of form wire, and tie a grid using the tapcons.

On the old, clean, and BARE surfaces, add a latex adhesive. We used to call it "milk" because it looked like it. Brush it on all the old concrete. Ok, if you get it on the wire.

Use just the Mag trowel. Steps and "slick finish" do NOT mix well.

You do want a bit of fall in the steps. Sloped towards the REAR of the step, and add an edger track back there. It acts as a channel to direct rain water OFF the steps. Besides, as the steps wear, they will become level, and still safe.

Plus one to reuse of the rubble, IF there is a side wall to the steps. One can even add a railing to the side walls, rather than the steps.

New step pour? REBAR is your friend. The area where two steps meet is going to be very thin, and will be the weal link. There is where the #3 or #4 bars will do the most good. Three bars running from the top to the bottom, with a cross bar under the step itself. Concrete foundation back behind the steps? Dowel those bars into the foundation. Keeps the step from getting away from the porch that way.

Two pours? Have a hose handy, keep the first pour wet while you pour the next. Better yet, have someone else mixing the second batch While you place the first. Use a trowel to make a few grooves where the two pours meet.

About all i can think of right now, other than I am too old to be messing with concrete....

Mark Bolton
06-21-2014, 12:13 PM
For me your option of tearing out and replacing is the smartest. There is never a patch it thin pour that will last as a repair. Concrete simply doesn't work like that.

We just recently replaced about 50+' of 4' sidewalk that would've been perhaps 250' from the closest location for a truck if not further. Even though it was 2 yards we had no choice other than to use bagged. While it sucked it wasn't all that bad. The worst part about bagged is your at about 250/yard or more for concrete that will be weaker and of less quality than what you'll get off a truck but sometimes you have no choice.

I have a mixer that will run 5-6 80 lb bags per batch. The key is to have a system. Pails of water with a sharpie mark inside so your not waiting on a hose, just have half dozen buckets, each is a batch, dump 2/3 of the pail in the mixer, slowly add most of your material then add the final water. It's the only way to keep your batches at a fairly consistent slump across the entire pour.

I can't stand fiber in concrete and would much rather opt for mesh. You can buy a couple sheets and bend it into your forms and it will add far more strength that fiber.

The key will be the forms and the timing .. normally with stairs you form, place, then at the appropriate time you begin to break down your forms and rub out the final finish. That's the trick.

You may also be able to save yourself some work by filling the large voids with rubble or cinder block. There is no need for the stairs to be completely solid concrete. You can pour a base, drop in rubble/block as you go, and just leave 4" or so around the perimeter to be solid.

I agree fully that cold joints are a complete no no but with that little concrete you shouldn't have any.

2/3 of a cubic foot per bag, and you'd be wise to use the 5000 lb quick rete cause it has a bit more Portland and it's easier to rub out if it gets away from you.

Mel Fulks
06-21-2014, 12:40 PM
If your stair pitch is the too common 8-9,if you have the room consider a lower pitch like 61/2 -10 . Less demo and much
more comfortable.

John Coloccia
06-21-2014, 1:03 PM
re: rebar
I actually wasn't planning on any. It's more of a stoop than steps. Imagine a solid block of concrete about 6'X3'X2', and then put another step on the front. I don't want to patch it. It actually used to be 3 steps. The first step went several years back. I took that out with an air hammer, chisels and a sledge hammer, and replaced it with a nice, flat stone (no shortage of stones on my property!). I knew the second step would eventually go. There is NO good concrete left there. I just rub my foot on it and it crumbles away.
The main part of the stoop has some spalling, but really not bad. I could save that if there was some way to just do something about the second step. I've considered just hammering that out too and replacing it with another step made of stone. It would look pretty, anyhow.

I'll post pictures later. I'm just trying to get the house ready to sell. I know I could do some sort of patch and make it look nice, but you can tell from looking that this was a bad mix from day one, and I don't want to give the new owner my headache.

One other options is sealing is, and then sticking some sort of landscape stone/brick to it. I think that would be a fairly expensive and time consuming option, though, considering that I can probably demo and pour for $300.

Mark Bolton
06-21-2014, 4:09 PM
Sounds like you have a solid plan...

John Coloccia
06-21-2014, 4:24 PM
Here's another question...what's the proper way to do the joint between the stoop and my foundation. Should I butt right up against the foundation or should I somehow leave a bit of room and then seal it with something? The engineer in me says that I want to do SOMETHING there to direct water away so it doesn't just collect.

Mark Bolton
06-21-2014, 4:35 PM
Best practice would be to either put expansion in there or at the least roll up some felt a few layers thick and pour against that. When your done you can cut it back slightly and run a bed of NP1 in there..

John Coloccia
06-21-2014, 4:46 PM
Felt sounds about my speed :)

Thanks for the help everyone. I'll try to get some pictures up tonight. It's ugly...

Sean Troy
06-21-2014, 5:05 PM
What about pre cast?

Rich Engelhardt
06-21-2014, 6:03 PM
Do you have any other concrete work that needs done?
Do you have any neighbors that need any work done?

Our front steps needed redone some years ago, along with a couple of parts of the walk - maybe two slabs (3'x3' or 2'x2' - I don't know which & it really doesn't matter).
We also got an extremely high quote of around $1000.00 for the job.

We also asked about having a 20'x12' pad poured in the back yard next to our enclosed patio.

"Well now, that makes a huge difference!" - the concrete guy says.
"We can do the steps and the two slabs for about $150.00 extra if we pour the pad".

John Coloccia
06-21-2014, 6:33 PM
Do you have any other concrete work that needs done?
Do you have any neighbors that need any work done?

Our front steps needed redone some years ago, along with a couple of parts of the walk - maybe two slabs (3'x3' or 2'x2' - I don't know which & it really doesn't matter).
We also got an extremely high quote of around $1000.00 for the job.

We also asked about having a 20'x12' pad poured in the back yard next to our enclosed patio.

"Well now, that makes a huge difference!" - the concrete guy says.
"We can do the steps and the two slabs for about $150.00 extra if we pour the pad".

Unfortunately, no. Most of my property is dry stacked stone, including stairs leading from the upper driveway to the house. Like I said...we have a LOT rock here. I live on ledge...for now, anyhow.

re: precast
I looked into precast. The two problems that exist are:

1) I would have to shape the step to fit around my siding. That's how the current steps are. Alternately, could change the siding. Both options don't seem very attractive to me.

2) The precast itself is cheap. Maybe $250, or something like that from what I can tell. Delivery and installation is very expensive, and truck access to place it is very iffy at best. I think I was quoted something like $800 to have it put in, and I still need to do all of the demo and prep work. At that point, I may as well just spend a little more time making forms and doing the cement work myself. I've also heard nightmares of them getting on site and things just not fitting properly for whatever reason.

Brian Elfert
06-21-2014, 9:08 PM
I would think twice about doing your own concrete work if you haven't done it before. My father and I did some concrete sidewalks at my house and it looked terrible from the start and is failing after a decade. We didn't really know what we were doing. The concrete step done by professionals still looks great after 13 years.

If you are going to do it yourself I would try to find a rental place that can supply redi-mix concrete in small quantities of a yard or less. It might cost $150 to $175 for the trailer and a yard of concrete, but way less work than hauling bags and mixing them.

Shawn Pixley
06-21-2014, 9:31 PM
Felt first. When everything has cured add a foam rod and good sealant.

steven c newman
06-21-2014, 9:39 PM
I did this sort of thing for six years for a living. Commercial, mainly

First things first....get as many friends to help as you can, and have the beer on ice. Next, clear away all the existing as you can, and save all the broken stuff. Next 3/4 plywood and 2x4s for the forms. Pour a slab level as you can. Place the outside forms. start to back fill with the rubble. Place the rebars and tie bars. Take the number of steps, cut a 2x8 to the length, AND cut a bevel on one edge. You want it almost to a knife point. Knife edge goes down to the tread of the step below, tilt the 2x forward about an inch or so. You can get a 12" deep step that way. Attach these 2xs with long screws from the outside of the form. You can also add a 2x4 right up the middle. Bracing. place your mix into the forms. Mag the treads. Run an edger around. Mainly on the front edge. allow to mix to setup until a finger no longer sinks into the tread. Strip the tread "risers" first, and rubber float the face of each. keep a small pile of a sluury handy, to fill voids. ( note: get the palm sander out of the shop, plug it in, and vibrate the risers, to avoid voids) Work your way down to the bottom. THEN strip the outside forms. ( note: either use the sander, or a BFH to vibrate the side forms.) Spray the results with a sealer as soon as you can, like at the end of the day. Then open the cold ones.....after that, you're on your own..

Almost forgot, have a hose handy. spray the pile of rubble down, before the mix gets there, it will slow the cure enough to be of help.
BTW Asphaltum for the joints on anything outside, the foam stuff works better on inside stuff. Yes, you can dowel through it, too.

steven c newman
06-23-2014, 9:29 PM
So.....made any mud yet???

John Coloccia
06-23-2014, 11:01 PM
This week is power washing the shed and deck, followed by finishing. I'll probably jack hammer it out next week sometime, and pour the following week. I still owe some pictures. I just haven't had a chance. The kids are keeping me very busy. :)

John Coloccia
09-04-2014, 8:44 AM
Well, I'm just getting back to this. Question: do I have to pour on a footing, or can I just pour on earth? Once I break away what's there, I have no idea what I'm going to find underneath. Also, do I have to worry about cracking the footing (assuming there's one there) as I'm jackhammering the old steps away? I may actually just attack it with a sledge hammer instead, because I think it will just crumble, but I may rent a jackhammer just for fun.

Jay Jolliffe
09-04-2014, 5:17 PM
All the steps I've seen done have had a footing or slab underneath them...I would say if you pour on the ground they heave with the frost but maybe where you are there isn't that much...

John Coloccia
09-04-2014, 5:33 PM
All the steps I've seen done have had a footing or slab underneath them...I would say if you pour on the ground they heave with the frost but maybe where you are there isn't that much...

Oh no...there's quite a bit :) I just don't know if this step is a handyman special. I tell you, just getting some of these contractors to show up is a nightmare. I don't understand it. I'm looking at doing it myself out of desperation as I just need to get it done, and I'm running out of time.

Jay Jolliffe
09-04-2014, 6:06 PM
If they're going to be cement I would do a footing.

John Coloccia
09-04-2014, 6:53 PM
All I know is that a few years ago, the bottom step came apart. I replaced it with a large stone (my property's on ledge, so large stones are easy to find :) ). I chiseled out the old step and put the stone in place. There was nothing under the step except dirt.

Jay Jolliffe
09-04-2014, 7:04 PM
Maybe why it came apart...moving all the time from frost heaving ...would do it.

John Coloccia
09-04-2014, 7:12 PM
Yeah. Maybe I do just need a pro to figure this out. If I could get any to show up, that would be great. So far, the one reliable quote I have is $2200. That's to CUT OUT the bottom step that's really bad, score the rest and then just put in a new bottom step and skim coat the rest. I'm not a pro, but that seems like a ridiculous price to do a half as....er.....half baked job.

Brian Elfert
09-04-2014, 7:36 PM
Reputable contractors are so busy this year they are reluctant to even bid more jobs unless you are definitely planning to do the job. I talked to a window contractor in June about replacing some windows and he said up to 14 weeks to get the windows. He said it didn't really matter that the windows took that long because he was already booked for installs into September.

I talked to a contractor about giving me an estimate on fixing up a foreclosed house and he wouldn't even bid the job unless I was really serious about buying the house and having the work done. The contractor said the economy has turned around a bit and many contractors left the business so the remaining ones are working like crazy. I ended up signing a purchase agreement for the house without a bid from any contractor. I ended up with about three weeks to get bids done during the inspection contingency period. I got two budgetary type bids and then selected one of them to write up a final bid and to do the work. (Contractor starts next week.)

Pat Barry
09-04-2014, 7:57 PM
I think you need to find a mason, not a contractor. Some guy out of Craigslist for example. Someone looking for extra cash and willing to work nights / weekends. Contractors look at your job as too small to be worthwhile.

John Coloccia
09-04-2014, 9:39 PM
Reputable contractors are so busy this year they are reluctant to even bid more jobs unless you are definitely planning to do the job. I talked to a window contractor in June about replacing some windows and he said up to 14 weeks to get the windows. He said it didn't really matter that the windows took that long because he was already booked for installs into September.

I talked to a contractor about giving me an estimate on fixing up a foreclosed house and he wouldn't even bid the job unless I was really serious about buying the house and having the work done. The contractor said the economy has turned around a bit and many contractors left the business so the remaining ones are working like crazy. I ended up signing a purchase agreement for the house without a bid from any contractor. I ended up with about three weeks to get bids done during the inspection contingency period. I got two budgetary type bids and then selected one of them to write up a final bid and to do the work. (Contractor starts next week.)

Yeah, but it's just a common courtesy, and good business, to call someone back and say you're not interested. It's not like I don't remember who these guys are, and it's not like I don't do large projects too and talk to other people that do large projects. Things won't be hot forever, and then they'll be back to crying in their beer again, just like they were a couple of years ago. I know this because I used to hear them crying in their beer at the local pub, and I also knew exactly why they had no work but why the guys I used were still busy and scheduling jobs weeks in advance.

I guess I expect too much.

Curt Fuller
09-04-2014, 9:53 PM
John, mix..pour all you want. The fiber mesh idea is good. But the most essential key to making the new steps stand up to the Connecticut winter is using an air entrained cement when you mix your concrete. Here in Yewtah you can buy both air entrained and non entrained cements in bags. Give it plenty of mix time in your mixer....at least 120 revolutions. And keep the slump low (water cement ratio). Have fun. BTW, you didn't mention whether you were buying sand and gravel separate or using the bagged mix. If you're mixing it from scratch, a good, easy mix is 3 shovels of rock, 2 sand, 1 cement.

Brian Elfert
09-05-2014, 11:10 AM
Yeah, but it's just a common courtesy, and good business, to call someone back and say you're not interested. It's not like I don't remember who these guys are, and it's not like I don't do large projects too and talk to other people that do large projects. Things won't be hot forever, and then they'll be back to crying in their beer again, just like they were a couple of years ago. I know this because I used to hear them crying in their beer at the local pub, and I also knew exactly why they had no work but why the guys I used were still busy and scheduling jobs weeks in advance.


I had two contractors do an initial bid on the project. I told the contractor I chose not to move forward with that I would not be using his services. I didn't just leave him hanging.

Chris Padilla
09-05-2014, 7:41 PM
Hit YouTube HARD, John. There are a lot of good videos on there to help you out with your concrete. I recently helped a buddy pour a small slab in his garage (post-tension concrete in his new place...can't drill into it I guess) so he could lock-down a large gun cabinet. We rented a mixer that could handle two bags at a time and went for it. For two newbies brought up on YouTube, I thought we did pretty good. Steps have, well, more step involved but the basics are the same: pour, vibrate, trowel to rise the "cream" to the surface but don't over trowel and keep things wet for a couple of days.

Tom M King
09-05-2014, 8:07 PM
Here are a couple of pics of some steps we formed up, going down into an early 19th century basement. The concrete was the base to lay bricks on. The forms need to have no weak points, with all corners well tied together. Having the side, retaining walls made this formwork actually easier than if it was just the steps. We were pouring some massive footings under old chimneys that had none, so this was just added to the order. Around here, there is a 3 yard minimum-you pay for three yards even if you only need a half yard. I have an ancient concrete mixer that I converted to run off the PTO on the tractor, rather than having another motor to keep up. If I need a couple of yards, I'll pay for the three off the truck.

If these were going to be finished concrete, I would have built the forms heavier. Since we were laying brick on top, it didn't have to stay perfect. The OSB did bulge a little, but not enough to matter for this job.

Tom M King
09-05-2014, 8:19 PM
Here's the other part of that job. It's the first base under an 1828, 43 foot tall chimney we needed to jack up, and push back into place against the house. The basement had been dug out for one of our waterproofing jobs. This base under the chimney was designed to use to jack off of. Notice the two level screed. During the earthquake we had a few years ago, it shook some of the old paint off the walls inside, but the new plaster against the chimneys we had jacked back in place like this didn't even crack. There was another pour that ran all under the chimneys, and sat on top of this footing. We left 6-25 ton hydraulic jacks, a 10" I-beam, and four 1"x12"x2' steel plates inside the second pour.

This was before we scratched out under the chimney to put the steel and jacks in place. This was just for the first level pour.

A screed like that is useful for a set of steps too.

John Coloccia
09-05-2014, 9:02 PM
Well, I have...allegedly have...a guy coming "in the next week or so" to check it out. I guess I called him while he was on a roof, and he asked me to text him my address. If that doesn't work, I'll just bite the bullet and do it myself. I really don't have the time or the inclination at this point since I have so many other things to do these days, but I'd better get it done before winter comes. I certainly can't do a worse job than what's already there, so I don't see why I'm even worrying about it other than my tendency to over analyze things sometimes.

I just really can't stand not doing things right, and I'm always a little hesitant to start something like this because it always seems to open a can of worms by revealing past sins. In this case, the steps have never heaved before, so whatever is under there....footings or just dirt...is obviously solid enough that I can pour right on top of whatever it is and hopefully expect the same.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'll post some before and afters when I finally get to it.

John Coloccia
09-17-2014, 6:51 PM
Finally found the right solution. It's actually something I'd considered doing but really didn't want to mess with. One contractor suggested covering it with blue stone. Fine idea. His prices was a little high, but he's also going to fix a dry stack retaining wall/steps, and his price on that was VERY low. Basically it works out to $3500 for both jobs, and that's very reasonable.

Chuck Wintle
09-18-2014, 6:57 AM
A pretty good video on pouring a slab.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed6q3mkJ0xs