Serious Ultimate Gouge -my perspective

[Roger Chandler]

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A few months ago, I briefly mentioned the Serious Ultimate Gouge that I had acquired........actually, I have two sizes the 1/2" and the 5/8".......both will fit into the cam-lock handle with their respective collet.

At the time I originally mentioned this, I had not had any time with the tool(s) and said I would give a bit of review after I got a few pieces under my belt with them. I currently have several brands of gouges......Sorby's, Crowns, Thompson's and some cheaper Benjamen's Best from PSI, and a woodriver gouge from WC.

I have now done numerous styles of forms with them........bowls, boxes, vases, pens, birdhouse ornaments.......and some spindlework such as peppermills. I feel at this time, I can give an objective observation about the tool and how it relates in quality and function compared to other tools I have and use............so having been requested to give this review, I now submit my observations!

First of all.......the ULTIMATE GOUGE from Serious Toolworks is a "serious tool!" This gouge is 12" long and the flute runs the entire length of the gouge.........this adds more life to the tool because you don't run into the shank with it like others, and the tool is made from alloys that are proprietary to Serious Toolworks, and are marketed to hold a fine edge longer than HHS. The combination of my sharpening setup with a 60 grit Norton and CBN 180 grit makes a beautiful edge. A light touch up with the CBN and I am off to the races!

I can attest to the fact that the edge holding capability is about as good as any tool I have ever used. I have, use, and like very much, my Thompson gouges.........the Ultimate Gouge from Serious is on par I believe, with the Thompson gouges and have the entire length fluted..........that gives not only a longevity bonus, but also allows for a different grind to be put on the other end of the same gouge.......say a bottom feeder grind........which is handy in the Cam-lock handle design, by just a twist of the collar and flipping the end. The ultimate gouge is light years ahead of the cheaper brands, in my opinion!

The Cam-lock handle has been wonderful for me. In cold weather, my shop/studio has little heat, but the neoprene handle allows me to turn without my hands turning so cold I can hardly grip it! This is a real comfort issue for me, and it also removes much vibration and shock factor, which has to be a plus for any aging turner or one who suffers with carpal tunnel syndrome. Also a plus, is that you can extend or retract the gouge into the handle to suit your particular need at the moment, and it helps when you do not want to take your tailstock off the bed because the handle of your gouge keeps bumping it!

I have used both the 1/2" [my go to size for most turnings] and the 5/8" for roughing out operations.......it hogs off wood very well, and the edge holding ability and fine grind make it a joy to use.

Another plus it that my Thompson gouges will fit the collets and the cam-lock handle which was very important to me in deciding to get the cam-lock setup.........I feel like I get the best of both the makers by using this handle system.

I post this because I was asked to, and said I would back a few months ago........I have no purpose other than to give an honest appraisal of a tool that really has done a good job for me, and even though it is a little more expensive up front, the value is certainly there with the entire length fluted and the ability to put more than one grind on the tool.

For those who may be in the market for a new bowl gouge............my personal opinion is that you ought to give the ULTIMATE GOUGE a "Serious" look! I have no affiliation with Serious Toolworks, other than being a satisfied customer.......I can say that the folks there at Serious, go out of their way to try to make their customers happy and take good care of them!

I hope you will find this review helpful and informative!

[Ryan Mooney]

Thanks for the great review Roger. I'm needing to upgrade my Benjamen's Best at some point pretty soon, and this gives some nice food for thought (I was looking primarily at the thompson, and its nice to see the serious handle works with both).

[Reed Gray]

I did get a sample from Scott a few years back of a gouge that he was going to make out of a 'special' type of metal. At that time, the flute design was a deep V, and it cut so far in that there was little metal left in the bottom of the gouge. It was VERY hard, probably harder than any other metal I had used except for tantung. The flute design here looks much better. I may have to try one out. Could you post a better picture of the flute shape? Does he have other flute shapes?

One concern with the harder metals was/is being very brittle. This means that if you drop it, there is risk of chipping and/or breaking. Also you would never quench it because of the risk of micro fractures. Know any thing about that with this tool?

Thanks,
robo hippy

[allen thunem]

is the serious a parabolic fluted gouge or "v" or " u"

[Ralph Lindberg]

Last time I looked at their tools was, well, at the Portland AAW symposium.
I kidded them about the "serious" money for a "serious" tool/lathe (they had been up to the local club the Wed before for a demo/tool-show-off)

[Bob Bergstrom]

I've been using a 1/2" D-Way for a few months and it has been a sweet gouge. The parabolic flute seems to stay in the cut better than a "V" gouge. Even with a very light cut the surface produced is smooth without rippling. I will buy the 5/8 when our club makes another mass purchase. The colbalt steel last longer and the the price is on par with the powder gouges. All tolled I have about 10 bowl gouges. The all get used for various techniques.

[Reed Gray]

I have experimented extensively with the V 10 that Thompson uses, and the M4 that D Way uses. There is no noticeable difference in edge holding ability. I have a friend who can give you a weather forecast for the next week depending on how his myrtle wood cuts, and he agrees. The metal that Serious is using is different.

robo hippy

[Ralph Lindberg]

I have experimented extensively with the V 10 that Thompson uses, and the M4 that D Way uses. There is no noticeable difference in edge holding ability. I have a friend who can give you a weather forecast for the next week depending on how his myrtle wood cuts, and he agrees. The metal that Serious is using is different.

robo hippy

Dave uses M42

[Roger Chandler]

I did get a sample from Scott a few years back of a gouge that he was going to make out of a 'special' type of metal. At that time, the flute design was a deep V, and it cut so far in that there was little metal left in the bottom of the gouge. It was VERY hard, probably harder than any other metal I had used except for tantung. The flute design here looks much better. I may have to try one out. Could you post a better picture of the flute shape? Does he have other flute shapes?

One concern with the harder metals was/is being very brittle. This means that if you drop it, there is risk of chipping and/or breaking. Also you would never quench it because of the risk of micro fractures. Know any thing about that with this tool?

Thanks,
robo hippy

Reed.......Serious went to a little more shallow flute and a newer, but somewhat similar design. In my mind they kept what was really good about the original design and made it better...........there is a little more metal under the flute than on the older design. I have not had any issues with brittleness on the gouges I got a few months ago........believe me, I have had them roll off the bed ways and fall behind my lathe on several occasions.......:eek: all my fault of course for laying it there and bumping it when my focus was on another tool and the cut I was making.......I think putting the tools on the bed of the lathe is something we all do at times.........don't know if it is what we ought to be doing! :o

[Roger Chandler]

is the serious a parabolic fluted gouge or "v" or " u"

Okay.......I think I am right about this, but terms sometimes trip me up, so let me describe the thing. The flute looks to me like a modified V with a little wider bottom than just a straight sharp V in the bottom.......that being said..........the wings do get a bit of an arc on the grind I put on them, where my Sorby of the same size gets a very straight line edge..........therefore, I think it is parabolic? Does that make sense?

I get really nice cuts with the wings using a shear cut with the handle down and boy does it ever throw off the shavings.......ribbons would be a better term, as they really just pile up. Also, the finish off the tool that has a nicely sharpened edge will allow me to start sanding at 240 grit a lot of times..........not true on all woods, but has been the case on several I have done!

[Roger Chandler]

okay.......because I want to be precise, and never misrepresent things [not even by accident!] I emailed Serious and got this response from Scott Trumbo who read my answer above..............

"I read your answer on the forum and your comments are spot on (modified V) except there is no parabola in any of our tools. With a parabolic flute shape (think oval) the flute corners pull back in a little towards the flute center. I believe only D-Way and Henry Taylor work with this shape in their gouges."

Hope this clarifies the question on the flute! :)

[Richard Jones]

I cringe every time I see 'ultimate' anything and it is usually a deal breaker for me.......... Hope it's good for you......

[John Keeton]

okay.......because I want to be precise, and never misrepresent things [not even by accident!] I emailed Serious and got this response from Scott Trumbo who read my answer above..............

"I read your answer on the forum and your comments are spot on (modified V) except there is no parabola in any of our tools. With a parabolic flute shape (think oval) the flute corners pull back in a little towards the flute center. I believe only D-Way and Henry Taylor work with this shape in their gouges."

Hope this clarifies the question on the flute! :)Perhaps a better description of a parabolic shape would be that the sides continue an upward and outward curve, but with an ever increasing radius. Thus, while the inside wall appears to be somewhat concave, the flute corners don't actually "pull back in...toward the flute center." That would seem to leave the impression that the flute closes back in toward the top.

I would think an "oval" would more closely, but not exactly, describe a "U" gouge flute as we commonly see them.

Edit - I should add that, IMO, the curvature of the side walls of a gouge more effect the dynamics of waste ejection, while the nose profile more effects the dynamics of the cutting action. Obviously, with a shearing cut, that may not be totally accurate. Thus, one's personal style of tool use can make one flute shape more desirable than another. It is likely we will not all agree on the "best" profile, but we are certainly blessed to have multiple choices!!

[Robert Henrickson]

I would agree with John that the curvature of the side walls affect waste ejection -- I simply cannot use bowl gouges that have a noticeably 'V' shape, even in shear cutting. The profile created by different styles of grinding also ought to have a serious effect on waste ejection vs clogging. Perhaps with a different grind I'd be happier with sharper V profiles. On the other hand, I'm happy with my results with the more open ('U' or parabolic) cross-sections.

[Roger Chandler]

Perhaps a better description of a parabolic shape would be that the sides continue an upward and outward curve, but with an ever increasing radius. Thus, while the inside wall appears to be somewhat concave, the flute corners don't actually "pull back in...toward the flute center." That would seem to leave the impression that the flute closes back in toward the top.

I would think an "oval" would more closely, but not exactly, describe a "U" gouge flute as we commonly see them.

Edit - I should add that, IMO, the curvature of the side walls of a gouge more effect the dynamics of waste ejection, while the nose profile more effects the dynamics of the cutting action. Obviously, with a shearing cut, that may not be totally accurate. Thus, one's personal style of tool use can make one flute shape more desirable than another. It is likely we will not all agree on the "best" profile, but we are certainly blessed to have multiple choices!!


Thanks John for the further clarification on the oval/parabolic flute issue...........I understand it better myself now! :D

[Jeff Gilfor]

This flute design looks remarkably similar to the 10V Hurricane gouge i picked up recently as a trial. I really love the way it cuts.

I suspect that these Serious gouges will be a wonderful addition to my little arsenal of tools if/when I get to buying more. Right now, Doug Thompson's steel is lasting long enough to preclude needing replacements for many many months to come.

I do like the end-to-end fluting idea. Very useful to allow flipping it around to go from roughing to finishing cuts, or from walls to bottoms.

[Roger Chandler]

Back when I first joined SMC and the next year or two, there were always tool discussions and such on different threads........posters in our turning community were quick to share a new tool they acquired and how well it was working for them, or in some cases dissatisfaction........many a dollar was saved by the knowledge imparted by these reviews, and more experienced turners were helping newbies and less experienced turners avoid mistakes and maximize their value on dollars spent for tools.

I just wanted everyone to know, that it is in this same spirit I posted this review...........sometimes we simply get used to looking at things one way, and that is okay, but in doing so, we can miss some really beneficial innovations and quality ..............if this thread helps you in some way, that is my hope! ;)

[Reed Gray]

The terms for flute shape are confusing. I like John's description of the sides being more oval. Some V shapes are way too pointy, like the old Glaser I have. Just don't like them. I have some older Oneway gouges that are more parabolic. The Thompson V are pretty open, and the U is more of a semicircle, not even a U or C. I picked up one of Lyle Jamieson's parabolic fluted gouges, and it is more open than most. Now, what really gets me is that some times on one piece of wood, one tool will give a great cut, but not on the next. I switch flute shapes, and another tool works better. No idea why. I do prefer to roll my gouges over on the side 45 to 90 degrees, and prefer the more open fluted designs, because there is a larger sweet spot. Some prefer to have the flutes more up, and cut in the nose, just slightly on the uphill/against the wood side. I think this is the Ellsworth method. This one makes me nervous....

robo hippy

[Bill Wyko]

I just purchased a Jool Tool sharpening system so now my Glaser Synergy gouge is sharpened on a flat plane vs the curve of my wet sharpener. i have to say, my gouge seems to hold an edge much, much longer and seems to make a better cut. I've only turned 2 bowls and a grip for an airplane brake handle but it's still not even close to needing a sharpening. This grind is slightly less than an Elsworth shape.
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[Dale Miner]

Some prefer to have the flutes more up, and cut in the nose, just slightly on the uphill/against the wood side. I think this is the Ellsworth method. This one makes me nervous....

robo hippy
Nervous? Yeah, me too. I cringe when I see that presentation. It works until it oops, and when it oops, it is a big OOPS!

[robert baccus]

Concerning the steels mentioned above it is my understanding that V10 and powdersteels are superior to M2 AND m4bECAUSE THE 2& 4 REFERS TO THE VANDIUM %. anything HIGHER THAT 4% REQUIRES POWDERING AND MOULDING TO STAY TOGETHER. It will not melt together. Also these high vanadium steels are not necessarily harder but only wear resistant. Chipping would be the product of poor tempering and not additives. I like U shape also but use both shapes.

[Thom Sturgill]

One question not addressed so far - If you look at a Thompson versus a D-Way you will see ridges in the flute of the Thompson that Dave polishes out. IMHO, these ridges have to effect the shape of the cutting edge and possibly the surface being cut. Where does the Serious tool fall in that spectrum?

With my older M2 gouges I would sand the inside of the flute when I got the gouge and maybe again later after I had used some of the tip. With Thompsons that seemed futile, the steel was harder than the sandpaper, not sure about M42, that gouge was already polished.

On a side note, there was a video posted recently where Doug gave a talk to a club and he discusses Vanadium and Powder Metal. M42 (what D-Way uses) has, I believe, 1% Vanadium and an added 8% cobalt, and 9-10% Molybdenum as well as other things. Doug also discusses flute shape, claiming that a straight V when ground to a slight curve gives an almost identical edge to a parabolic flute ground straight (Ellsworth) .

[Jeff Gilfor]

I have taken to polishing the flutes of my Thompson gouges. I use an abrasive rubber wheel on a grinder, then leather stropping wheel and polishing compound.

Doesn't make me a better turner, but I do think that the tool finish is much better, especially when combined with flat (not hollow ground) sharpening that I've switched to recently. The jury is still out though. Really need a good six months to say for sure.

It seems obvious though that, if the flute has ridges, then so will the sharpened edge. Ridges might be good in potato chips, but not on turning tool edges.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Jeff is correct, only you probably need to hone the flute of even a D-Way. Since the act of sharpening leaves a burr.
You probably don't need to hone all the way up the flute, at least when you sharpen.
I have a chunk of maple screwed to a face-plate, with various sized beads turned on it. Each of the beads has buffing compound (a black compound for steels) worked into the wood.
Of course I hold the chisel UNDER the buffing block, so the action goes away from me and the tool would be pulled out of my hands and away from me, when (not if) something bad happens.:D

[John Keeton]

We have drifted off topic, but with a lot of great information. Roger did a good review and for the sake of those that may search the forum for matters being covered here, I am going to close this thread and as soon as Ms. Keeton gets thru on our computer, I will start a new thread regarding some of the topics being mentioned. Not sure if I can move any of the posts, but I will try.

That way, this review stands on its own and the other information can be collected in another thread.