Shapton stone observations

[Gene Collison]

I flattened my set of Shapton stones on the Shapton compact lapping plate and tested them for flatness using a Mitutoyo depth micrometer readable to 1 ten thousandth of an inch left over from my smithing days. I tested for concavity in both directions and in various parts of the stones along the length and width. I was satisfied that they were very flat. The depth mike hovered around a reading of zero maybe off .0001 here and there in all measurements. I then sharpened an ECE 711P plane iron both the bevel using the new Lee V. MK2 honing jig as well as refining the polish and finish on the back of the blade. Enough work to seriously hollow and deform a conventional waterstone. The Shaptons were not flattened during the sharpening process, all four stones were used for the back and the bevel.
I then rechecked the stones with the Mitutoyo after the sharpening job for concavity. The stones showed little if any wear or concavity in any direction still measuring a random .0001 or .0002 in concavity possibly .0003 in some area that I failed to measure. I was*astounded* expecting at least .005 wear or hollowing in some direction.
I am going to keep track of the wear just to be able to quantify how much or how long I can go without flattening them.

gene

[Alan Turner]

Gene,
I will be interested in your findings. I too am a Shapton user. I have found that I can get quite a few sharpenings on plane irons, but about 5 or 10 chisels, and they need flatening. A shape thing I always thoughts.

[Corvin Alstot]

I am curious, which Shapton number stones are you using.?

[Gene Collison]

I am curious, which Shapton number stones are you using.?

1K,2K,5K and 8K.

[Corvin Alstot]

1K,2K,5K and 8K.
I might have to look into buying a set, the Norton stones I use seem to need a touch up after every blade I sharpen. I get good results but it is a hassle to keep them flat. Thanks for the info.

[Michael Perata]

1K,2K,5K and 8K.
Gene

Is the 8k Shapton equivalent to the 8K Norton? Since most of my sharpening is on a Lap-Sharp I only use the 8K for touch up honing, but it is a very soft stone and I would like to find somethin more durable between honings.

[Gene Collison]

Gene

Is the 8k Shapton equivalent to the 8K Norton? Since most of my sharpening is on a Lap-Sharp I only use the 8K for touch up honing, but it is a very soft stone and I would like to find somethin more durable between honings.

Michael,

It's very much the same in performance, the advantage being it does stay flatter. Keep in mind that the Shapton's do sometimes glaze over much like a grinding wheel, so you need a way to remove the glaze as well as flatten them when they need flattening. I used a DMT 220/325 duo sharp prior to getting the Shapton lapping plate. I have not found any other methods to sucessfully maintain a Shapton stone. I am not sure if the switch would be worth it for 1 stone unless you already have a DMT or equivalent. The Norton 8000 is a pretty good stone.

Gene

[Roy Wall]

Does anyone know if Norton is coming out with a 12k or 15k stone........ I believe Shapton does have a 15k......??

[Steve Wargo]

Last time I talked with Norton, they said it was something in the works. But no time table.

[Gene Collison]

Does anyone know if Norton is coming out with a 12k or 15k stone........ I believe Shapton does have a 15k......??

Roy,

Japan woodworker has a 12K stone called a North Mountain which comes with its own Nagura stone for about $70. I understand it's good. A had a 12K Shapton for awhile, it loaded up pretty severely which doesn't mean to say other 12K stones will. However after that experience I learned that anything over 8K and possibly even 6K is pretty much wasted effort. 5K is probably as far as you need to go on chisels.

Gene

[Roy Wall]

Roy,

Japan woodworker has a 12K stone called a North Mountain which comes with its own Nagura stone for about $70. I understand it's good. A had a 12K Shapton for awhile, it loaded up pretty severely which doesn't mean to say other 12K stones will. However after that experience I learned that anything over 8K and possibly even 6K is pretty much wasted effort. 5K is probably as far as you need to go on chisels.

Gene

Gene, what do you mean by "loaded up".......? If I spray rinse my NOrton 8k after a few honings........is this prevention?

[Gene Collison]

Gene, what do you mean by "loaded up".......? If I spray rinse my NOrton 8k after a few honings........is this prevention?

Roy,

Loaded up much like grinding wheel loads with a metallic deposit firmly embedded on the surface. The Shaptons do not have a friable surface like a waterstone that constantly renews itself. That's the reason they stay so flat and also one of the disadvantages. The deposit has to be removed now and then with a diamond stone, lapping plate or other means. The Norton 8K is IMO somewhat of a hybrid waterstone, I have seen it retain a deposit too but not nearly like a Shapton. I have read notes on the Shapton website that the stones should be kept as smooth as possible so as not to retain a deposit. i'm not sure I understand your question about rinsing after a few honings.

gene

[Alan Turner]

I have 1k, 5k and 8k. Bought as a set from Joel in NY at a fair price. I use a very flat granite tile and SC abrasive powder to flatten. Only takes a minute, and is quite cheap. Shapton makes a 12, 15, and 30k also, but for what I am not sure. I have no plans for a finer stone. I use a Norton 220 grit diamond for rough shaping and initial lapping as it cuts quickly.

[Gene Collison]

I have 1k, 5k and 8k. Bought as a set from Joel in NY at a fair price. I use a very flat granite tile and SC abrasive powder to flatten. Only takes a minute, and is quite cheap. Shapton makes a 12, 15, and 30k also, but for what I am not sure. I have no plans for a finer stone. I use a Norton 220 grit diamond for rough shaping and initial lapping as it cuts quickly.

Alan,

How does your granite tile work as a process? Does the SC powder actually embed into the tile or float in between or what? I'm thinking if it floats and slides around it wouldn't be very effective. There must be something I'm not seeing. I know diamond paste actually embeds and holds particularly on cast iron turning the cast iron into sort of a diamond stone.

Gene

[Roy Wall]

Gene,

I use a 120 or 220 sandpaper on my granite plate for flattening stones...

[Tim Sproul]

A had a 12K Shapton for awhile, it loaded up pretty severely which doesn't mean to say other 12K stones will.

Which 12K?

My 12K hippo doesn't have any problems with glazing or such - A2, O1 and japanese cutters. I use a coarse DMT - either the duo sharp or the dia sharp - to maintain the flatness. I prefer the dia sharp because it is heavier and less expensive.


Which 12K shapton were you using? I've heard some Shapton stones are not make for woodworking cutters....more for cutlery where loading isn't much of an issue since so little of the cutter is being worked. Unlike a large bevel on a thick plane iron.

[Alan Turner]

Alan,

How does your granite tile work as a process? Does the SC powder actually embed into the tile or float in between or what? I'm thinking if it floats and slides around it wouldn't be very effective. There must be something I'm not seeing. I know diamond paste actually embeds and holds particularly on cast iron turning the cast iron into sort of a diamond stone.

Gene

Gene,
I have a back sink in my shop, and I put the tile on a flat surface so it does not deflect, wet it lightly by running it quickly under the tap, and then sprinkle a bit of SC grit on it, sort of like a very light salting. Just a smallish pinch. Then wet the stone, and wash off whatever swarf wants to come off easily, rub it around in circular motions trying to cover all of the plate, and then rinse it off, while rubbing my hand over it to feel that the grit is gone. Light pressure is all that is needed. It does not embed, and it leaves small lines in it, which reduces the suciton. Esp. on my 5000, which I don't like as much. You can tell when it is done by just looking.

It does not seem to glaze over as you mentioned.

[Gene Collison]

Which 12K?

My 12K hippo doesn't have any problems with glazing or such - A2, O1 and japanese cutters. I use a coarse DMT - either the duo sharp or the dia sharp - to maintain the flatness. I prefer the dia sharp because it is heavier and less expensive.


Which 12K shapton were you using? I've heard some Shapton stones are not make for woodworking cutters....more for cutlery where loading isn't much of an issue since so little of the cutter is being worked. Unlike a large bevel on a thick plane iron.

The 12K professional. It started loading up in less than 1 minute of use. It would load so severely that the trapped particles would scratch the iron forcing me to back up 2 stones and start over. I've heard it about this particular stone by one other person as well, at least a 12K shapton of sort. I think all Shaptons eventually have glazing problems, your probably just removing it with the diamond stone before it builds up. I can hold my stones at an angle in the light and see a metallic deposit after I use them for awhile. In the case of the 1000, it just stops working period until you refresh it.

[Gene Collison]

Gene,
I have a back sink in my shop, and I put the tile on a flat surface so it does not deflect, wet it lightly by running it quickly under the tap, and then sprinkle a bit of SC grit on it, sort of like a very light salting. Just a smallish pinch. Then wet the stone, and wash off whatever swarf wants to come off easily, rub it around in circular motions trying to cover all of the plate, and then rinse it off, while rubbing my hand over it to feel that the grit is gone. Light pressure is all that is needed. It does not embed, and it leaves small lines in it, which reduces the suciton. Esp. on my 5000, which I don't like as much. You can tell when it is done by just looking.

It does not seem to glaze over as you mentioned.

Alan,

I may try that, however I did order one of the small Shapton hockey puck type stones for sort of a quickie surface refresh. I would think you are most likely removing the glaze if any while your working it on the tile. If you were to let it go I am quite certain you would see it. I wrote to Harrelson Stanley about this, in particular the 1K. His off the cuff quick answer was that the stone needed refreshing, mine actually loaded like a grinding wheel and didn't do much of anything. After I cleaned it up, it came back to life.

gene

[John Miliunas]

FWIW, over the last several months, I have found Gene's research, observations and tips on this whole sharpening business invaluable! Thank you, sir! And, on that note, I for one, went ahead ordered up one of those Shapton flattening plates today!:) Yes, there are other methods, but it seems to me that this particular utility does the best job and does it quickly. Thanks for the additional guidance and all the time, $$$$ and effort you've put into this little project, Gene! Much appreciated.:) :cool:

[Gene Collison]

FWIW, over the last several months, I have found Gene's research, observations and tips on this whole sharpening business invaluable! Thank you, sir! And, on that note, I for one, went ahead ordered up one of those Shapton flattening plates today!:) Yes, there are other methods, but it seems to me that this particular utility does the best job and does it quickly. Thanks for the additional guidance and all the time, $$$$ and effort you've put into this little project, Gene! Much appreciated.:) :cool:

John,

Thank you much for the thumbs up.

Gene