A look at a german table saw (Rapid PK-100)

[Dennis Aspö]

Hello, first post here, new to woodworking in general. I got my first table saw last night and figured I'd post about it here. I was going to get some cheaper contractor saw but things kind of snowballed and instead I ended up with a 600lbs (250kg) german table saw from 1976. Best thing is I spent hardly any more on this than I would have on some lighter and worse quality modern contractor style saw.

It can take a 12" blade but you can only retract the blade fully with a 10" so I guess for most purposes I will want a 10" blade, 30mm arbor. 3-phase engine, probably a 3kw (5hp) one (standard), though they had a 4kw version too.

Some of the things that I liked about this saw was it had two slots, many european saws only have one slot, usually on the left side. some have no slots at all. I've been watching a lot of american videos, and sleds and jigs running in the slots is a pretty big part of every day operations and I've come to find this method natural just from that. Europeans are more about sliding tables, and this saw has one, more on that.

Here it is in my garage (still under construction, as is my house):
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3857/14265946187_b5ca31d125_c.jpg

Closer view, cleaned off the cast iron top with Ballistol and newspaper, all I had at the moment. I'll clean it more thoroughly later. Also liked the american speed square so I ordered a metric version from the US.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5574/14451034482_7695bab7ff_c.jpg

Blade that came with, 10" crosscutting blade, 80 tooths:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5482/14449033651_08a475132b_c.jpg

I also noticed the profile on the slots are a dovetail shape, usually the slots are straight I've noticed, will this affect how I make runners for my jigs or is it enough to make them fit snugly to the top? I guess it'll be easier to make runners that can't be lifted up though, just cut them at an angle.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3911/14451278184_2346958caf_c.jpg
Ordinary wheel handle for lowering and raising the blade. Tilting is done by opening the locking lever and just dragging it, then locking again.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5191/14265784290_262d09fc59_c.jpg
Rip fence, turn knob stops, has a fine adjustment knob as well, wobbles at the far end when you adjust it but goes solid when its locked down.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3925/14472576963_961058e733_c.jpg
Wooden insert that came with the saw. I am thinking of making some zero clearance inserts using MDF panelling, I have a metric buttload of them after putting up the ceiling in my house. Maybe they can also be used for bottoms in small sleds.

Here's the blade guard and support arm for the sliding table, apparently I forgot to upload pictures of that.
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2921/14451282364_f2737fb349_c.jpg

Regarding the sliding table I was somewhat disappointed, the support arm is on a hinge and when you start it is at maximum extension and giving the best support, but when you get to the end of the table it's turned inwards and then suddenly the support is almost gone and the table drops down on the left side. I have so little space at the moment I do not think I will be putting it on for a while. Would be nice if it could be improved.

Maybe overkill for a first table saw, but I really shouldn't be needing to buy another one, ever.

[Rick Potter]

That's an interesting saw, Dennis,

The dovetail slots are going to work out well for you, and it has a good riving knife. Interesting to see a slider which is not next to the blade. When you get it working it will be like our Excalibur or Jessem add ons, but probably a lot more sturdy. It should be easy to make add on jigs for that fence, too.

A little love, and that saw will probably outlast you.

Rick Potter

[Dennis Aspö]

I uploaded the pic of the table itself, not much to look at:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/14477779243_9ec06386cf_c.jpg

The round "pipe" is what the whole thing runs on. It doesn't show the design of the table very well, a google image search shows what it looks like when assembled however:
http://i.imgur.com/xQHZflh.jpg

I don't really know what can be done to fix the slider to be honest.

[John McClanahan]

That's a really nice looking saw. I think the problem area with the slider is mostly behind the blade, and won't be much of a problem.


John

[Dennis Aspö]

Yes I considered that, still kind of annoying because the drop off in support is quite sudden. I am thinking perhaps building a freestanding support rail that supports the table from beginning to end, but it might be bulky. The sliding table might be a bit too bulky even when the garage is finished, hard to tell, I'll have to see how it pans out.

[Mike Null]

Good looking saw. I think the blade may be a laminate blade given what appears to be a negative rake on the 80 teeth.

[johnny means]

Let me be the first to say

YOU SUCK!

Nice score there.

[Judson Green]

Looks cool! Neat to see old arn from another country.

Interesting how the fence doesn't go much further than the back of the blade. I know that's a common thing for European saws, but still interesting to see. I've been thinking about "bobbing" the fence on my band saw.

[Phil Thien]

On the sliding table issue, how does that design differ than any other sliding table? It would seem to me that the basic design of them would all more or less be the same, and that if your unit is dropping-off at the end of the cut, that there may be some adjustment to be made?

With or without that table being used, I think that is a pretty nifty saw and I agree with the others that it looks like it is built to last.

I wish more European members would post pictures of their tools here. There is quite a bit that can be learned from looking at these models.

[Loren Woirhaye]

The sliding table fence should not touch the fixed table. I can't say this is the source of the hangup. Generally sliding tables are adjusted to sit about .5mm above the fixed table.

[Jim Andrew]

Wow, your saw looks like it is in amazing condition for a near 40 year old saw. Have never seen a model like that, maybe there are websites in Germany that cover that saw. Like the sliding table attachment, should make crosscutting much better than with a conventional table saw.

[Dennis Aspö]

On the sliding table issue, how does that design differ than any other sliding table? It would seem to me that the basic design of them would all more or less be the same, and that if your unit is dropping-off at the end of the cut, that there may be some adjustment to be made?

With or without that table being used, I think that is a pretty nifty saw and I agree with the others that it looks like it is built to last.

I wish more European members would post pictures of their tools here. There is quite a bit that can be learned from looking at these models.

Perhaps there is some adjustment that can be made, perhaps the table is meant to be more firmly affixed to the rail it slides back and forward on. As it is now, the tables right side tips upwards when the support arm has swung all the way in, turning the sliding table almost into a seesaw.

[Phil Thien]

I don't really know what can be done to fix the slider to be honest.[/QUOTE]

If the point at which the arm attaches to the table isn't perfectly vertical, then the end of the arm (that supports the table) will travel in an arc that isn't parallel to the plane of the main table, does that make sense?

If you had a fairly flat piece of MDF or particle board, you could lay that on top of the main table so it overhangs the area where the arm travels, then as you push the arm from front to back, the distance between the bottom of the MDF, and the top of the arm (at the arm's end) should stay fairly consistent.

If it doesn't, then you should be able to loosen the point at which the arm attaches at the saw's base and adjust it until the arm's motion is in a plane parallel to the main saw's table.

After you get the arm moving correctly, I think it would just be a matter of reinstalling the table and making sure there is no play between the sliding table, and the tube it slides on.

Not to come off as a Sherlock Holmes or anything, I'd say that judging by the number of dings on the arm and the tube for the sliding table in the picture of the 2nd saw you posted, that it was well-used, so I imagine it can be made to work quite well.

[Dennis Aspö]

Yeah I believe I understand, both the arm and the sliding rail where adjustable actually, though a bit rusted in place, I noticed this as I took them off. I'll definitely make a note of this for later so I can remember it when I get some space in my garage, as it is now there's no chance of getting it back on.

[Judson Green]

I find it kinda odd that it has a sliding table considering how the blade tilts. I mean I'd much rather have a screw tilting arbor than a sliding table. Weird.

[Phil Thien]

I find it kinda odd that it has a sliding table considering how the blade tilts. I mean I'd much rather have a screw tilting arbor than a sliding table. Weird.

I guess it is all personal preference. Me, I'd prefer a sliding table w/ decent capacity, I don't change the blade's angle often enough to make the lack of a handwheel that big a deal.

Although, I recently picked a portable table saw (Porter Cable) over others because it DID have the handwheel for angle. But that was "an all other things being equal" decision.

[Dave Lehnert]

Welcome to the Creek.

Nice looking saw. Thanks for posting.
Be sure to post more of your tools. I am always interested in tools woodworkers use in other parts of the world.

[Loren Woirhaye]

This type of saw is often used as a "dimension saw", for cutting panels. Thus usually used for 90 degree cuts. Altendorf made a model that doesn't tilt at all. I think it was cheaper so shops could get a slider for what it's good for and use something else for angles.

[Judson Green]

I guess it is all personal preference. Me, I'd prefer a sliding table w/ decent capacity, I don't change the blade's angle often enough to make the lack of a handwheel that big a deal.

Although, I recently picked a portable table saw (Porter Cable) over others because it DID have the handwheel for angle. But that was "an all other things being equal" decision.


Yeah, I never changed angles much either, but when I did I tended to creep up on it and want to fine tune it. And frankly that sliding table looks kinda smallish, your not likely to be cutting up 4×8 sheets with it.

Dennis, could ya pass along some dimensions? I'm curious the length of travel on the sliding table.

And for the record, I think the table saw is cool (especially like the dovetail ways, you could make a rockin sled) just think its kinda funny how two countries develop and use essentially the same machine, quite differently.

[jack forsberg]

funny i thought rapid was Italian!

[Judson Green]

funny i thought rapid was Italian!

Then it would be rapido!

[Dennis Aspö]

I heard some comments before I bought it that it was Italian too (and that the top was not cast iron, but it clearly is), but I looked up the manufacturers site:
http://www.rapid-maschinenbau.de


Company profile:
http://www.rapid-maschinenbau.de/English/ego.html


Company history
http://www.rapid-maschinenbau.de/English/historie.html


And they still make the PK-100, you can find an english spec sheet to download if you are interested:
http://www.rapid-maschinenbau.de/English/holz_stab/pk_100.html


I'm not sure if my table ever was teflon coated but I got a pretty nice patina on it now after cleaning it with steel brushes and ballistol. Surface felt a bit tacky afterwards however.


I then got an idea to take some sawdust and sprinkle it on the top, then I rubbed it in with my hands and the sawdust clumped up and the surface was left feeling clean, not sure if there's enough oil left to offer protection or not. I believe the "patina" itself will also stop further corrosion.


I will probably take it apart further and clean parts from rust, perhaps repaint them as well. It would be nice to restore this saw.

[Loren Woirhaye]

It looks like it was inspired by Ulmia designs. Ulmia stuff is sweet. Holz-her too. I have a couple German machines and they are not messing around.

[Dennis Aspö]

I almost bought an ulmia but it was not in as good shape, and the price was higher in addition.

I got around to seeing what wattage the motor was, apparently they didn't use 3 or 4kW back in '76 as their modern specs indicate, this one is "only" 2.5kW, still plenty enough considering it's a 3-phase motor and thus it has more torque than a 1-phase of identical power rating would have.

[Bob Hoffmann]

Hi Dennis,

Some thoughts about the sliding table ... When I was in Germany - 1995, I purchases a small slider to attach to my contractor saw. I have never been sorry that a I did, and it is used for cross-cutting. It is not for cutting panels. It also has a small table -- about 1' deep and 1.5' wide. Never had an issue with it being too small to crosscut a board.

I noticed that there is a bolt slot underneath the table that keeps the arm under the table -- and it supports the table with a ball that the table rides on. The other side of the table has grooved rollers that ride on a tube -- and the rollers are cam adjustable to fit snugly. Now, if I put the table to its end, the ball falls into the wider part of the bolt slot (it is that to get the bolt head into the slot. I got around it by putting a wooden stop on the end of the rail so that the movement of the table stops before it gets to the point where it drops into the bolt slot. I was thinking that it was because I mounted the support in the wrong place -- but I also have noticed that it would be nice at times to have a way to make the table not move -- and I was wondering if that is the idea of your table dropping -- it is a stop for the table so that it is in a position that will not slide when you are cutting a sheet with the rip fence without the sliding table fence ... just a thought.

So, my suggestion is to put a stop so that it won't go that far, or use it as a stop so that the table won't move when you don't need it to ...

The support arm is very sturdy, and even when it is at the point where it is closest to the non-movable table, it can still support a board for cross cutting ... I never use the miter gauge on saw for cross cuts -- the slider is a much safer way to go.

I was also going to mention that when you are cutting using the sliding table, you only have to move the table so that the fence is past the blade -- the wood is fully cut ... at least for 90 degree cuts. The travel to the back of the saw is seldom used -- unless you can move the fence to the back of the table for wider boards.

It looks like a really nice saw set-up, and with the slider, the grooves are seldom used -- the dovetail keeps a miter gauge from falling down when it is extended to the front (for wide boards being cut at an angle) ... I am guessing that the slider does not have a way to cut a piece at an angle ... perfect use for an attachment jig to the slider that can angle a fence for miter cuts ...

[Dennis Aspö]

If it'll fit and work as I want it to I believe it will get use for crosscutting pieces, it should be able to cut at angles from what I've seen, I've honestly not had much time to look at it in detail.

A lot of the jigs have I planned to make for this saw will use the slots, they will be for making small and intricate cuts like box joints, dadoes and tenons, for those I don't need see a need to be utilizing the sliding board, unless I just want to use it to move the jig so I can stand on the left side, but that might be excessive.

Also I had a better look at the arbor and with both flanges and nut on there's no extra space left, so it seems even such an old saw as this was not capable of accepting dadoes, a small shame I think but not a big deal. I had believed this started in the late 90s myself due to new CE marking rules.

[Rollie Meyers]

Seeing that red Ceeform plug, I assume it's 400V 3Ø? Nice thing is in some European countries that 400V (400/230V) 3 phase is avail in a residence.

[Dennis Aspö]

Yeah 3-phase is standard here for every standalone house, only in apartments won't you get 3-phase power. It's usually only a single outlet in your power junction box (not sure what to call it) but that's enough. I'm pulling in an extension to my garage and I will be looking for 3-phase equipment in the future. I think my next investment (no time soon) is going to be a planer/jointer.

[Dennis Aspö]

I have a question about my top, do you think I need to clean it more? It has kind of a patina going now and I've read elsewhere that the patina prevents further rusting, so I am wondering if I should leave it like it is (very thin film of oil), or should I degrease and clean off all the rust and seal with a wax of some kind?

I'd almost be tempted to try and rust blue it but I don't have the equipment for such a large piece and I don't know how cast iron would react to the process as opposed to steel.

[Bob Hoffmann]

The oil on it could be transferred to the wood -- not a good idea. I use wax on the top -- and just on the saw top, and not on the sliding table -- for that, you don't want the piece to slid around on it ...

I have a dehumidifier that runs constantly in the garage shop, and that seems to provide enough moisture prevention that I don't have a rust problem. Bu the wax does provide a nice glide action to the saw top. BTW, I am a real fan of Goddard's wax -- from England ... use it on furniture and on the tools ...

[Loren Woirhaye]

Get the oil off with mineral spirits. Wire brush the top until it feels smooth. You don't have to cut through the brownish patina, though it may happen in places. Then use paste wax. Waxilit is good for machine tops. Dunno what it is exactly but I know it's a European thing. You can get a rubberized emery block... it's like a pencil eraser but black and loaded with fine abrasives for cleaning oxidized ferrous metals. In the states it's called a "Wonderbar"... I think it's made in Germany.

[Dennis Aspö]

Took a closer look at the blade that came with and it says it's meant to cut HW HL board, I don't know what that is, in this PDF file the circular saw blade that fits the blade profile on this says it's for "for sizing cuts in plasticlaminated panels". So perrhaps like laminate floor panels? I have a bunch of those that I will be putting in the house soon. Could it have other uses than this?

http://www.leucosgp.com.sg/Newsletter/01-CircularSawBlades_EN.pdf (102478 or similar blade)

Also inspected the design of the sliding table. Looks like it has no angling abilities. I am somewhat disappointed in that as to me it reduces the use of the sliding table. I guess I will be making a sled with built in angling abilities, suppose the sliding table can still be used to actuate the sled so I can stand to the side for safety reasons, and for simple straight cuts. Or perhaps some king of jig can be attached to the table itself to allow for angling. The modern PK-100's table I think can angle in both directions.

[Loren Woirhaye]

HL I think is pressure laminate like formica on particleboard. The laminates are prone to chipping. That would probably be a high quality blade and may be a real benefit in working with melamine and splintery plywoods but you may want one with a lower tooth count for general woodworking.

I have a sliding table saw and usually if I need to do an angle it's a 45, so I have this triangle I put against the fence. I can move the fence, but the triangle is faster.

[Dennis Aspö]

Yeah I bought a 40 tooth blade from a local store, some unknown brand called Javelin. I hope I can do finer crosscutting of non plywood with this laminate blade though, got some MDF moulding I want to try it on.

I also have a Freud 40 tooth blade but I bought that when I was planning on buying a saw with a 5/8" arbor and so it does not fit my current saw with its 30mm arbor. Looks like a real good blade though and it kinda stings to not being able to use it, but boring it up would cost as much as the blade so I am hoping to sell it locally.

[Loren Woirhaye]

A local machine or auto shop may do it for some beer. Boring a blade arbor hole doesn't require special equipment the way sharpening does.

[Dennis Aspö]

I was told elsewhere, in big black letters, that it was a bad idea and I should never bore up a blade, if I had to I should only leave it to some professional service with specialized equipment and even then better to buy a new blade. There was a place specializing in boring and shaepening blades here and they wanted 30 euros for it, I paid 37 euros inc. shipping for the blade.

I do know some guys with lathes and the like, such as gunsmiths, maybe they could do it? If so I'll return this Javelin blade as I have not opened the package yet.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Well, you can't so it with a drill bit. People with more metal experience may chime in. I have bored them out with a special guided cutter machinests use... I smoked the tips and ruined the carbide on it. Normally I think it is done on a lathe.

[Dennis Aspö]

Noticed a part has broken in the saw, seems to be part of the assembly that tilts the motor, not sure what to make of it, looking at the schematics the part seems to be bent like it is in the pictures, but there's no tear in the metal.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3901/14503434191_b9f14340ee_c.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5274/14505480764_b3fdbfc76d_c.jpg

Also looking at this arbor, do you think it's long enough to take a dado set, even a partial one?
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/14510047445_c5d06108f6_c.jpg

Also noticed the arbor is 20mm (when I noticed that the saw blade I took out had a spacer), not 30mm as the currently made PK100s have.

[Dennis Aspö]

Bumping this thread back up since I finally put the sliding table back on and I got some pictures if anyone's interested. Garage is still a mess, more so since I got the saw:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5566/14756508053_28c7889240_b.jpg

From the other side:
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3906/14734288854_18ff71d7ed_b.jpg

The suspension mechanism
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2914/14713655136_d6e64fbe01_b.jpg

Table rides on ball bearings
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2912/14549981320_970e0a6005_b.jpg

In standard mode it'll cut up to almost 150 centimeters (almost 5 feet I guess), but it can be extended up to 250cm (8 feet)
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3882/14549983360_35fee6b691_b.jpg

The scale turned out to be exact to the millimetre when I tested it against a tape measure as well, good enough for me. This will really come in handy when I am cutting molding for the floor and trimming around doors in my house as I'll need to cut pieces 7 feet in length or more and I need to get them exact. Doing it so far in a miter box has been a less than pleasant experience IMO. Had time to use it cut a bunch of trimmings to identical and proper lengths last night before I went home.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3920/14734296654_8875700095_b.jpg

[Phil Thien]

This will really come in handy when I am cutting molding for the floor and trimming around doors in my house as I'll need to cut pieces 7 feet in length or more and I need to get them exact. Doing it so far in a miter box has been a less than pleasant experience IMO.


If you need them exact I'd just direct-mark the molding pieces in place. When you measure with one tape, and then use a different tape (the one on your fence), you're just begging for joints that are gappy.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I do recall you were inquiring about importing a contractor saw from the UK. Hah. That's most useful looking machine and that long stop bar is a plus too.

[Dennis Aspö]

If you need them exact I'd just direct-mark the molding pieces in place. When you measure with one tape, and then use a different tape (the one on your fence), you're just begging for joints that are gappy.

Yeah what I do is I measure & mark with my tape measure, then set up the table stop so it cuts at the mark, then I can do a bunch of trimmings for the doors to identical lengths.

I am not sure about the built in readouts on the scale by the way, there is one metal block (not pictured) that seems to work as a stop with a lever to tighten it down and a magnifying glass and line that hovers over the scale, so you see clearly to the sub-mm, but the block doesn't line up with what the indicator says so I am not sure what purpose it serves. It's a piece of metal without much adjustment so I don't think it's been damaged somehow, it's just designed like that.


I do recall you were inquiring about importing a contractor saw from the UK. Hah. That's most useful looking machine and that long stop bar is a plus too.

Yeah, fortunately I was steered away in the last minute by a local woodworker who happened to post there. This is a much better saw for essentially a little more money as the saw I was looking at (Woodford, which I wanted for the dado ability) and it'll probably outlast me. The lack of dado is something I can live with or work around.

EDIT: And the table doesn't adjust for angles, but I found this german forum where someone did just that to their table, maybe it's within my reach todo this sometime in the future:
http://www.woodworking.de/cgi-bin/holzbearbeitungsmaschinen/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/75906/sbj/pk100-umbau-sehr-viele-bilder/