Water stone stiction question

[Chris Merriam]

Hey guys, I'm a self taught sharpener. I've done LOTS of reading but don't have too many hours actually sharpening. I just bought a new plane and was flattening the back of the iron on Shapton ceramics 1k,5k,8k.

on the 5k things got weird. The blade would ride across the surface like its on a cushion of air, which I'm assuming is stiction right? I tried a drop of dish soap in my spray bottle and it didn't help. If the stone is not making a nice swish-swish sound, does that mean it's not cutting at all?

i ended up having to go really slow, and apply lots of downward pressure to avoid the iron chattering along the stone.

i read about using short strokes across the width of the stone, but even those got pretty sticky. It would work ok for 10 seconds then the iron would just freeze up on the stone.

last point, the stones are just resting in the plastic case they came in, I haven't rigged up a stone holder yet, maybe that's the missing piece?

any other advice?

[Winton Applegate]

Water. Lots of water.
If it sticks to the stone in ten seconds then rinse all the build up off the stones(s) after eight seconds.
all like that there.
PS:
When I say rinse, I mean under a running faucet.

[Jim Koepke]

The blade would ride across the surface like its on a cushion of air, which I'm assuming is stiction right?

That isn't my understanding of stiction.


It would work ok for 10 seconds then the iron would just freeze up on the stone.

That is more like my understanding of stiction.

The blade and stone's surface are in conformity. This happens with very flat stones on just about any blade. Somehow the surface tension of the water isn't letting water flow into the area. It is like a vacuum forming between the blade and stone.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

Make that “stiction” “surface tension” “one flat surface sticking to another flat surface which has a little too little water between them for gliding across each other” . . . work for you.

I do not use any stone holder or wooden structure around the stone (I never understood the attraction of a thing that collects stone/swarf junk in it) . . .

How do I get the stone to stay in place ?
Glad you asked that question.

You need a flat water resistant surface. Oh look here’s one in the kitchen, the laminate counter,
and . . .
it is next to the faucet/water rinsing mecca. Hmmmmm . . .
must be a sign from the gods.
Guess I will go with it.
Why fight it ? Right ?

Any way take a hunk of neoprene rubber mat. Not that foam stuff. This is 1/8 inch thick, solid, pretty hard, rubber. Get at a bearing and hydraulics supply place. Can order from Amazon by the foot also. I buy mine locally.

Take a plane ol’ wash rag, wet and wring out, wipe the counter leaving hardly any wet just a hint of damp the size of your mat. Put the mat on it.
Rinse your stone, shake all the drops off and put on the mat. Move back and forth a little.
That sucker will . . . well . . . suck right down and stick . . . like it has hide glue under it.

Sharpen to your little heart’s content. Twist the stone and it comes right up.
Rinse the stone, wipe the mat with the wash rag and repeat.

Even works with diamond stones.

[Stanley Covington]

First off, your description lists two apparently contradictory problems. The first is not enough friction when the blade is riding "across the surface like its on a cushion of air." The second problem seems to be too much friction when you wrote "even those got pretty sticky," and then after 10 seconds, the blade would "freeze up on the stone."

I can remember a similar problem with the first natural Japanese sharpening stone I owned. It was a real pig, and a total waste of money.
Don't let the goofy hat and bug burner fool you: Winton is a man of inestimable wisdom. https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/pvWRR6nVRLbFIGFhEejfj4Xl2DDT3aqBSeRWkZWMHscuUSMT8g cTMps3M_wAkskr5F9msC7t71H9BhoPzHZ11qqPhQuT8J9lUrZH bw=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/celebre/sherlock2.gifThe right amount of water should solve the second problem.... Well, maybe not "lots" of water, but more anyway. Think Goldilocks.

Besides water, the first problem of too little friction (cutting force) can be solved, I suspect, by using a decent nagura stone, (the Tsushima variety are usually pretty good), to create a bit of surface mud on the stone. It is this mud rolling and grinding between the blade and the surface of the stone (which acts as a platten or jig), that does the actual sharpening when things are going well, not the pressure of the blade on the stone, and the nagura will get it started nicely. Experiment with the amount of mud (sorry, the polite term is "slurry") and its water content to find the consistency that cuts well, while at the same time remaining on the stone's face without being splattered all over the place. You'll figure it out right away.

By itself, the mud from the nagura will only put a fine polish on a blade, but as it's particles are pushed and dragged along the stone's face, they will in turn dig up rougher particles from the surface of the sharpening stone to do the serious cutting. Once you get the right mixture of mud on the stone's face, the heat of friction and natural evaporation will gradually make the mud thicker and more viscous. Therefore, add drops of water as necessary while sharpening to maintain the right consistency. That should solve the stiction problem. https://mail.google.com/mail/e/33E

Oh yeah, and unless it gets contaminated, don't wash the stone off until you are ready to clean up at the end of the day: The time and material it costs to repeatedly make/remake the mud are too precious to waste. In my case, I cover my muddy stones with a sheet of newspaper to keep dust off them between sharpening sessions. At the end of the day, I wrap my finishing stones in newspaper with the dried mud left on the surface, ready to start again the next day, or next week, with only the addition of a bit of water. But that is just my personal preference and the blackest heresy in the eyes of some toishi worshipers. I remain defiantly unrepentant.https://mail.google.com/mail/e/ezweb_ne_jp/1B6

BTW, if you don't have a nagura, a sharpening stone (or a piece of a broken one) of the same or finer grit can be used for the same purpose. But I recommend you get your hands on a good Tsushima nagura before too long if you intend to become proficient with Japanese waterstones.

This webpage has some interesting information about nagura. It may give you a headache, and it is not necessary to know any of it, but toishi trivia can be fun too. The guy has obviously done quite a bit of research, most of which I agree with. The blog is fun too. I am not suggesting you buy anything from this webpage. http://www.thejapanblade.com/nagura_use.htm
I have been to the toishi shop in Kyoto shown on the "Home" link at top, but the webpage owner appears to be located in Californication. Go figure.

On the subject of stone holders, like the inestimable Winton, I like rubber under my stones. In a pinch, a sheet of wet newspaper on almost any surface that can get wet will work too, and makes it easy to contain the mud from one stone to keep it from contaminating another. Wooden holders, like the one in Odate's book (thanks for letting me reminisce with your book last week, Chris) are OK.

The steel and rubber variety shown at the top of this page are very handy. http://www.fine-tools.com/schaerfsteinhalter.html. Don't get the cheap Taiwanese (probably actually mainland Chinese manufacture) type, but the one made in Japan. The Taiwanese or Chinese ones are cheaper than the Japanese ones, but they turn red and go away.

Combined with a rubber mat and newspaper, its a great setup anywhere.


Good luck.

Stan

[David Weaver]

When you're using shapton stones, the largest part of the equation that causes trouble with them is lack of experience. That doesn't sound very helpful, but if you keep using them, you'll adapt your techniques to get used to how they work and wonder why you ever had problems.

I don't have my shaptons any longer, but they were probably the best synthetics I've used (from the standpoint of someone who likes to use natural stones, too, where stiction can also be a problem). I always liked them a lot better after they were glued to something with some weight. I don't remember any stiction issues with shaptons at all after having them for a couple of months, and I flattened a lot of new irons on mine. What I learned from them equated to better use with other synthetics, too, in terms of preventing them from having parts of the surface starved for water, and in terms of not having to lap the surface every time they loaded - but instead knowing how to get the loading removed with the iron or chisel that you're flattening.

[David Weaver]

Stan, I haven't observed the single large particle issue that alex talks about there, but I've had extensive discussions with alex over the phone when I was just going nuts over everything sharpening and have bought a couple of stones from alex. He's right about several things, though, including use of a nagura, and especially what he says every once in a while about the highest class stones not being the hardest ones out there, but instead the ones that are hard enough and that are very even. Most of those stones are gone from the mines, leaving us with stuff like common tomae strata stones that may meet that hardness description but not be very fine, or have scratchy particles, and then the hardest of the ozuku types of stones that are very even but that do not have very good cutting action.

Alex manages to find nice vintage stones in japan, though his highest grade stones are way out of my price range. I've gotten a couple of misfits from him (a suita with no mine mark that he discounted because the mine stamp was long gone, and a vintage ozaki mine barber hone that is an ugly little stone but that is a measure of perfection for razors)

The loose particle thing that alex talks about *does* happen with black arkansas stones, though I don't know if it's from stiction. Anyone who is using a broken in black arkansas stone will notice that every once in a while, a clump comes loose and it feels like someone dropped a grain of sand on the surface of a stone and you can often see the scratch left from it. I'd imagine that varies from stone to stone, and maybe the best black arkansas stones don't do it. I haven't noticed it on other fine arkansas stones, but sometimes loose particles stick around from prior stones only to show up right as you've finished an edge.

There are a few others here (and there) who get nice stones, now that fujibato seems to either be too popular to have mid level stones, or has no interest in them (maybe he sells them through others). One being Takeshi Aoki (who is in hawaii) and the other one being Takeshi Kuroda (who must be somewhere near miki).

Not that it has anything to do with the thread, but I personally don't have any trust in stones at this point that have Maruka stamps. Like vintage fender guitars, the supply of them increases with the demand. I suppose if there is a giant shinden suita with a hatanaka stamp on it, I'd trust that if the quality of the stone was way over the top rare, but then it would be 3 or 5 grand, anyway.

Toishi trivia is a good way to put it. Japanese natural stones are a terrible lovely stimulating waste of money. I'm glad to see that the folks over there are making available large tsushima hones, too, after using tanba aoto, a tsushima is a very welcome change. Same price, just as big or bigger, but infinitely nicer to use and much much less sloppy.

I've got a lot of thoughts on naguras, but they were formed via razor sharpening, and a bit too esoteric for me to go into them here. Safe to sum it up as I like good ones and I don't like bad ones.

[Jim Koepke]

You need a flat water resistant surface. Oh look here’s one in the kitchen, the laminate counter,
and . . .
it is next to the faucet/water rinsing mecca. Hmmmmm . . .
must be a sign from the gods.
Guess I will go with it.
Why fight it ? Right ?

My guess is you are either single or only sharpen when the wife is out shopping.

I wouldn't want anything sharp around if my wife caught me doing this.

jtk

[bridger berdel]

My guess is you are either single or only sharpen when the wife is out shopping.

I wouldn't want anything sharp around if my wife caught me doing this.

jtk


or that the kitchen knives get sharpened at the same time...

[Chris Merriam]

Thanks for all the feedback folks, I've been busy all day and forgot to check in on the forum. I think I'll definitely try out the rubber mat idea with more water(though not in the kitchen!). My current set up is not stable at all, and it's pretty easy to rock the stones around a bit. I'm also surprised to hear about more water, more slurry, I was doing the complete opposite. Once I saw the stone getting blackened up a bit I would rinse it off to avoid glazing (not that I even know what that looks like - see, I read too much).

I'm not ready to switch to any other stones at this point, I need to get my $250 worth first! And like David said, I think I need more practice. You'd think flattening a back would be easy, how much technique could there be....back and forth on a stone and keep it flat and in full contact.....

Speaking of starving a stone of water, if I'm lapping back and forth and a get a little dime sized bare spot of stone (no water in it), that is a bad sign I assume. More water in that case?

And to clarify, if my stone is not making a happy "swishy swishy" sound, does that mean it's not cutting and the iron is just floating on water?

[David Weaver]

I'm not ready to switch to any other stones at this point, I need to get my $250 worth first! And like David said, I think I need more practice. You'd think flattening a back would be easy, how much technique could there be....back and forth on a stone and keep it flat and in full contact.....



You'll be surprised how fast you become proficient with the stones. Tip number one, when you get that dry spot, you'll probably have loose water elsewhere on the stone. On a soft stone, you would just lap the iron the length of the stone. On the shapton, you want to move the iron forward an inch, and backwards a 16th or 8th less and gradually with those short strokes work up the length of the stone. When you reach the other end, do it again.

You might also think the shorter strokes will result in slow use of the stones, but that's just not the case - they will cut very fast that way. The 1k pro will make the swishy filing sound of fast cutting, the others will probably not make any sound because the particles are too small to.

If you have a dry spot that's black and plugged, a pass or two and it'll end up getting removed by your use of the stone itself.

[Chris Merriam]

Thanks for the tips. I definitely have loose water elsewhere on the stone. That's actually how I amuse myself while flattening, watching the iron chase the water around in patterns. I didn't realize I was in a fight to hold on to that water, I thought if the stone was damp then all was good. So we're back to the "more water" recommendation then, duly noted.

[David Weaver]

Yes, you want it on the stone so that you can use it. You just don't want so much between the iron that it's not contacting the surface of the stone due to suspension on water. When you first start with the stone, it seems as if the thing is all or none and you go back and forth between skating on the water and sticking. If there's no water on the stone, though, it'll definitely load.

When you get the hang of it, it'll reward you by being fast cutting, with a good polish and with good ability to keep flatness. It's worth the effort.

[Steve Friedman]

Thanks for all the feedback folks, I've been busy all day and forgot to check in on the forum. I think I'll definitely try out the rubber mat idea with more water(though not in the kitchen!).You'd think flattening a back would be easy, how much technique could there be....back and forth on a stone and keep it flat and in full contact.....

Just to add. No, back flattening is harder than honing the bevel. For one, you're removing much more material. But, I also think it's much less forgiving because there's so much more steel touching the stone, which makes stiction worse. Also, for back flattening, the stone needs to be perfectly flat, which is why some many of us use sandpaper on granite or glass. Also, even if you think you're being really good at keeping the back flat on the stone, you may still be putting more pressure on one part of the blade. I do use stones for backs, but not for the heavy lifting. Even then, I think it's important to go across the stone, letting the edge of the blade go past the edge of the stone to avoid dubbing.

Just my observations.

Steve

[Chris Merriam]

Thanks Steve, I have a granite plate and sandpaper too, but this was a new Veritas Pm11 and a Woodriver v3 I was dealing with, I thought it would be a couple swipes on each stone and good to go. Little did I know my sharpening would come to a screeching halt because I literally couldn't slide the iron over the stone anymore. It's not a problem you'd ever imagine happening lol.

i have a 220 diamond plate and flatten the stones on that, and I did it before I started on each iron (but not during).

[Chris Fournier]

Lots of pressure means that you are rushing the stone. Soak it, soak it long and try a nagura to prep it.

[Noah Wagener]

You may want to try the locked arms approach and rocking the body. I think that is for maintaining a consistent bevel but i found it helpful for a sticky Shapton.

I think the floating and sticking are from the same issue. I saw some guy use a scraper to match a surface of something really heavy to a granite plate and floated it like an air hockey puck.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

... but this was a new Veritas Pm11 and a Woodriver v3 I was dealing with, I thought it would be a couple swipes on each stone and good to go. Little did I know my sharpening would come to a screeching halt because I literally couldn't slide the iron over the stone anymore. It's not a problem you'd ever imagine happening lol.

From the Lee Valley site:


All our blades are lapped on the face side to a flatness tolerance of 0.0005" or better, with an average roughness (Ra) of 5 microinches (0.000005") or better.


My point is just that the back is already very flat and pretty smooth. I also experienced the same problems you mention when I slapped my new blades onto a fine Shapton... I never did finish because I was called off to work on something else by the wife and I never got back to it. So, it is a bit shiny, but not as much as I would like.

[Chris Merriam]

That's pretty much what happened to me, except I just plain got tired of lapping. I have spots on the backs that have a nice clear mirror reflection, but they are right next to areas that cast a fuzzy reflection. I'm heading in to the shop tonight to give it another try, this time with plenty of water, and I plan to leave the slurry from flattening on the stone to see what that does.

[Matthew N. Masail]

What your saying doesn't quite make sense to me. I have flattened many backs, once they are flat of a 1K stone, the other shouldn't be t-h-a-t much trouble or take that long at all IF you can move the blade on the stone... I have never used shaptons, so don't know how bad the stiction is.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

What your saying doesn't quite make sense to me. I have flattened many backs, once they are flat of a 1K stone, the other shouldn't be t-h-a-t much trouble or take that long at all IF you can move the blade on the stone... I have never used shaptons, so don't know how bad the stiction is.

I did not even try this particular blade on a 1K stone because the blade in question is already so flat. In fact, I thought that I had read something from Lee Valley that said I did not really need to do that with their blade, but, if so, it would be on the sheet that they included with the blade (since I don't see it stated as such on their web site). It certainly did a decent job right out of the container. I don't think that I have seen this behavior on a courser stone. I don't even remember what the stone is at the moment (Shapton Pro 5K Wine probably)

[David Weaver]

One other thing, work the last inch of the blade or so. I think steve or someone said above, when you're flattening an iron, you're working a much larger surface which limits how aggressively the particles dig into the metal you're abrading.

Working the last inch of an iron instead of the entire back allows two things - less stiction (and preservation of flatness on the other side of the blade for use once the side you're on is out of flat) and a deeper cut from the iron. Put your fingers or thumbs on the part of the iron where you want metal to be removed. The irons do still flex enough such that if they are flat, you'll remove metal faster where your thumb or finger pressure is than anywhere else on the iron.

In truth, you use the LV lapped irons just working the bevel and not doing anything at all to polish the back.

[Chris Merriam]

Yep, they include that sheet with the blade packaging, and it says even though the blade is a dull grey in color, it is precisely flat etc etc. I wasn't even going to touch the back, then I read somewhere, maybe here, that you should still hit it on your finer stones and have it match the bevel quality on the front.

Matthew, the stiction on my 5k was like glue. I could let go of the iron and it would easily hang off the side of the stone by itself (with just 1 inch or so on, and the other 5-6 inches in the air). I didn't try it, but I bet I could have picked up the stone just by lifting up the iron. I'm going to try to soak the stone for 2-3 minutes tonight and see what that does.

[David Weaver]

You *can* touch it on finer stones. Couple of worthless comments from me, but worth what they cost to get, I guess. We flatten irons for two reasons:
1) so that we can get a stone on the wear that occurs on the side opposite of the bevel, or so that we can reach a wire edge which if large from a coarse stone, will rip up the edge upon removal if it's not thinned via honing
2) to polish the edge because the finish level on the back isn't good enough for a cut (usually a smooth cut)

Neither of these is an issue with the LV irons. Successive sharpenings and polishing away the wear on the non-bevel side will quickly bring the working edge to a polish, and the iron already starts flat and finely lapped.

The reason that it's grey is because they're using silicon carbide abrasives loose (at least I'm guessing they are), and silicon carbide finishes are usually dull looking.

Most people don't use a sharpening method now that requires any regard for the wire edge other than to see that it's formed, so you can disregard that if you're using a premium finishing stone. Stropping it off would still result in a sharper iron, but one that is only sharper for a few strokes for practical purposes. If, however, you ever sharpen an old iron and want to remove a coarse wire edge, it will drive you nuts getting to it if the edge is not flat to the stone.

[Chris Merriam]

Well I hit the shop tonight eager to try some new things. I started by soaking my 5k stone for about 4 minutes, then I flattened it on my diamond stone and left the slurry on it. Got out my block plane blade since it's small and took a couple test strokes. I was pleasantly surprised, it glided nicely and seemed to be cutting right away. But after about 5 strokes the stickiness and the chattering came back. I kept at it for about 35 minutes and learned a few things:

1. The short back and forth stroke method works much better than full stone-length strokes

2. Pre-soaking the stone, and liberal amounts of water during sharpening certainly helped more, I'd say I got maybe a 30% improvement

3. I have a technique problem. I focused on flattening only the first inch or so, but I wasn't precise about it. So say I went about 7/8ths of an inch on my 1k stone, then I switch to the 5k and I go a full one inch. The only parts of the blade that get touched now are the front tip and the back around the 1 inch mark, everything in-between is sort of hollowed out from the 1k stone. So I need to work in reverse order, flattening more of the back on the course stones, and less as I work up the grits.

4. My stone generates a huge amount of suction. I said earlier I thought I could lift the stone, and indeed I can. Is this normal?
291594

As I said, I spent about 35 minutes on this, and at one point took it back to the 1k to start over. Roughly how many minutes would you expect to spend with a block plane blade on a 5k stone? Everything at 1k looked great and took maybe 5 minutes or so, but I think to get a consistent scratch pattern at 5k it would take me like 45 minutes.

I was getting the beginning of a nice mirror reflection at 5k, but it was still smeary looking. Is this too much to expect at the 5k level? This is my first set of stones, so unfortunately I have nothing else to go by. I have half a mind right now to buy a different brand 5k or 6k just to see if I'd like it better.

[Matthew N. Masail]

LOL ! I'm sorry Chris, but that picture is halerious!~ I have NEVER had anywhere close to that much stiction on ANY stone, and I have used
quite a lot of stones, but no where near as much as David. No wonder your having a hard time. This is how it works when I do it:

1. Flatten on 1k - I do about 1inch + a little but keep moving the blade deeper and shallower as to not create a step, this takes the longest of all stones.
2. than a 2\3\4\5\6K to remove scratches, I don't care how uniform it is, just as long as the scratches are gone, but a good back working stone will make it uniform
automatically if it flat to the stone. just a few minutes heren(like 1 or 2), 1\2 or 1\4 of the time of the 1k.
3. maybe 30 seconds to 1 minute on my finest stone just tot start a polish, the rest will polish out over time.


Always make sure to apply even pressure - screwing the blade to a flat stick of wood that is 1\8 narrower than the blade can help with even pressure but I only do that if I need to do heavy work on a coarse stone.


Different stones work differently for flattening backs, the Sigma power stones are amazing at back work (except they tend to load), and my Chosera do quite well too. Maybe David will chime in on this, since he will know if the problem is with the Shaptons or not, even though I suspect he would have said so already if it was.
if you can't seem to solve it, it might be worth your time to get a different 3-6K stone to use for pre polishing the back and keep the fine shaptons for everyday sharpening. I keep a certain stone around because I like how it does on backs.

One last thing - when I started out I thought the back needed to be an "even perfectly bright polish with no scratches" - that is not true! the very fine scratches of a fine stone are just fine, and will be removed slowly over time if you hone the back on a finer stone.

[David Weaver]

On a really hard iron I'd spend about 2 minutes with a block plane iron. On something like a stock Stanley, half of that assuming the 1k and 5k were flat to each other.

[Matthew N. Masail]

What diamond plate are you using? maybe it's not as flat as you think. are the stones new? sometimes a stone has a hard top layer that dosen't work as well as the rest of the stone.

[David Weaver]

What's funny is that I've seen pictures (and I can't remember where) of japanese sharpeners using natural stones and getting an iron to stick to their stone surface so that they could pick up the stone. They're pleased with it because it shows that they've honed a very flat bevel.

I could've created the situation you've shown with the shapton 5k and 15k when I was using them, but you don't want to for obvious reasons. Gluing the stones to a base of some sort is a help because of weight, the same way using a 300 pound bench is easier than using one 150 pounds. You don't often need 300 pounds in a bench, but it makes it easier to use in the times you do.

It sounds repetitive, but keep working with the stone. Keep it lapped, keep the strokes short and learn to move the slurry and water around and you'll be rewarded with a really fast cutting stone that makes very sharp edges.

[Chris Merriam]

Lol Matthew, I did have fun taking that picture, it took a few tries.

My diamond plate is a DMT DuoSharp, 220/320.

I haven't been testing the plate or stones for flat with a ruler and a feeler gauge, I will try that next time. Previously I've just used the pencil mark method to ensure a clean surface.

I've had the stones for a while, but they've seen little use. I've used them to flatten and hone 5 plane irons and 5 chisels.

I'll recharge my batteries and give it another go this weekend. Clearly if you guys are just spending minutes on each stone, then I have a technique problem. I've already identified one issue about creating a step in the back, so I can work on that. I think the second problem I have is knowing when to stop on the 5k. The 1k leaves a nice even matte finish with clear scratch pattern. The 5k starts to give me a clear reflection, but only around the perimeter, that's why i spent so much more time, trying to get that clear reflection in the center of the iron as well. That's when I realized I was creating a step and probably only hitting the front and back of the iron, and I called it quits.

[Shawn Pixley]

LOL ! I'm sorry Chris, but that picture is halerious!~ I have NEVER had anywhere close to that much stiction on ANY stone

I can get that sort of stiction most times I flatten a back. A quick twist and a spritz from my spray bottle and its gone. As David says, you know your back is flat at that point.

[Steve Friedman]

Chris,

Just to add another thought. Besides adding water to remove stiction, I find that I need to avoid pressing down too hard when trying to flatten a back on a water stone. The short strokes also definitely help, but I still think it's harder to flatten a back going along the length of the stone than across it.

Deneb Puchalski at Lie-Nielsen has an excellent YouTube video on flattening the backs of chisels. I use the same technique for plane blades, but end with the ruler trick. My back flattening problems disappeared when I started using Deneb's technique.

Here's a link to the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aDPZzMvVTA&list=PL5BE69422F61CEE64

Hope that helps,

Steve

[Chris Merriam]

Thanks Steve, that video was very helpful, I'll give his technique a shot this weekend.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I can get that sort of stiction most times I flatten a back. A quick twist and a spritz from my spray bottle and its gone. As David says, you know your back is flat at that point.

I assume you are using Shaptons as well?

[Shawn Pixley]

I assume you are using Shaptons as well?

No, I use Sigmas that I bought from Stu.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I had a similar Issue with the 13K Sigma, stuck like mad. but the 6K was OK. the Chosera 3K has very little to none stiction. I don't know how you guy's handle it, it drove my nuts.

[Chris Merriam]

Well I made some decent progress yesterday. I soaked the stone a bit longer, maybe 6-7 minutes, used plenty of water, but I think what helped the most was working across the stone instead of down the length, per the Lie Nielsen video (and dividing the stone in to 1/3s).

I had definitely put a step in the blade earlier, so I started at 1k with the new technique. No issues, 3-4 minutes and nice uniform matte pattern + scratches.

Going to the 5k, movements were much easier across the stone, though it still got sticky at times. I still need to come up with a stone holding mechanism, I was spending too much time worried about the stone moving rather than focusing on maintaining even contact with the blade. I'm still getting a weird polish pattern, I've got a nice clear polish on maybe 1/8+ at the tip, and then a strip of nice polish about an inch back, everything in between is a littly fuzzy. I probably spent 10-15 minutes working on this, and I could see the nice polish area growing in size, but I still think my technique is a little off. I'm going to try to lock the stone down tight today and try again back at 1k.

Here's two sample pictures of where I'm at now, I added some red lines to show the clear polish areas. In the second picture you can see the clearer reflection through the "o" for example:
291781291780

What do you guys think? At a 5k level, should I be looking to achieve the polish level I have right now at the tip of the iron, or is the fuzzy area in the middle acceptable? I'm having a hard time discerning the scratch patterns at this point.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, you're done. By the time you get to that part of the iron, you will have polished it with the polish stone just from successive sharpening.

[Chris Merriam]

Thanks, great to hear that!

[Matthew N. Masail]

yeah, that's way MORE than you need. just to add some confirmation. the blade is probably thinking "if this guy tries to polish me one more time !#!@$"

[Chris Merriam]

Lol, I know I got tired of polishing, I can only imagine what the blade thinks! Thanks for the additional note, like I said, I'm self-taught so it's really hard to know what good-enough looks like without seeing another example in person.

[Jim Koepke]

Lol, I know I got tired of polishing, I can only imagine what the blade thinks! Thanks for the additional note, like I said, I'm self-taught so it's really hard to know what good-enough looks like without seeing another example in person.

Don't worry about what "good-enough looks like." Let the results it leaves on the work determine if it is good enough.

jtk

[Matthew N. Masail]

Don't worry about what "good-enough looks like." Let the results it leaves on the work determine if it is good enough.

jtk

solid advice. the sharpening and scratches on metal thing were unknowen to me too, and I see the same look of "I have no clue" on peoples faces when I teach them