Dowel or Biscuit Follow-up

[Jerry Heiser]

I've been away for awhile and have fallen behind somewhat in visiting the forum. I did, however, read the threads on the dowel vs. biscuits. In the past I've used all of the mentioned techniques. I had a dowel jig that never saw use because of the inaccuracy of it. Then a revelation hit. I landed a client who wanted some entry doors made of magogany for an 1840s rowhouse in Pittsburgh. Before starting design & production, I did a lot of research on door construction. I found that dowels were often used. I also had an old house (late 1800s) and I found that all of those doors were doweled together. I looked into the DowelMax. (I should probably say at this point that I am in no way associated with DowelMax) What a find. It's a bit pricey, but I have sold my biscuit jointer on eBay and have not looked back. This jig is by far the most highly machined accurate tool in my shop. I put 40 dowels down each side of the doors (80 total per door). When I lined up the rails and stiles, they were DEAD on. I mean, exactly flush. No fussing around!! It's amazing! I know this sounds hard to believe, but bad joints caused by using dowels are caused by using a crummy jig. I was so impressed with this jig that I wrote the company, something I've never done before. I'll probably keep my pocket hole jig and dedicated mortiser for a while, at least until I see that they're gathering too much dust, then they too may wind up oneBay.

So don't sell using dowels short until you've seen this jig in operation. You'll be amazed.
Jerry

[Mike Steinhilper]

Jerry,

Thanks for the dowelmax info. That was going to be my choice until everybody sold me on the Kreg pocket screws. The Kreg is great, and a real time saver. But I think I will still invest in a dowelmax at some point because I like the traditional look of a dowel. Not quite sold on the Kreg pocket screws if they are visible.

[Corey Hallagan]

I considered this before I bought my Kreg. It works great but like Mike says I am not crazy about the visible pocket holes. But supposedly the pocket screw combined with glue is the strongest joint. Nice to know that the Dowell Max is worth it's price... good info for the future. I would rather dowell personally than biscuit.

Corey

[Rick Lizek]

You can buy hardened steel bushings and make any configuration of a dowel jig you want. I spent a number of years doing 32 mm construction boring and made a fixture two feet long with bushings every 32 mm and could dowel most any cabinet or carcase with easy repeatability.
www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com) www.carrlane.com (http://www.carrlane.com)

[Steve Aiken]

I bought the Dowelmax about a year ago. I was new to flat panel glue-ups, and I could never get a flush surface with biscuit joints. With the Dowelmax, a perfect surface every time!

Since then I've gone on to use it for picture frames and furniture. It is an amazing tool!! Expensive, but worth every penny.

Steve

[Corey Hallagan]

I have heard Norm say several times lately he has quit using bisciuits to glue up panels as the wood tends to dry and shrink overtime in the area of the biscuits and it leaves a little depression in the wood where the biscuits are. He just joints them and glues them up now.

Corey

[John Miliunas]

Jerry and/or Steve, where did you guys purchase your DowelMax kits? (Always looking for the best deal!:D ) Appreciate any info.:) :cool:

[Paul Prescott]

The DowelMax site also lists "premium quality compressed dowels" in packs of 100. Is it necessary to use these? Would regular straight dowels do?

[Jerry Heiser]

Paul,
Alhough I used expansible dowels, I got them from Rockler and not DowelMax. Rockler had them in a longer length, 2", which I used on the doors. I like the idea of the dowel swelling slightly which provides a tighter bond than regular spiral or fluted dowels, but they're not necessary in order to use the DowelMax.

[Jerry Heiser]

John,
I'll have to check my receipt tonight, but I think I got it directly from DowelMax. I just turned 59 on the 4th and I think my brain is starting to atrophy. I'll get back to you.
Jerry

[Jerry Heiser]

Jerry and/or Steve, where did you guys purchase your DowelMax kits? (Always looking for the best deal!:D ) Appreciate any info.:) :cool:

John,
I looked everywhere and I can't find the receipt for the DowelMax OR my Akeda Jig. I really am losing it. I don't however, remember finding any kind of deal on the DowelMax & I'm pretty sure I got it from the co. I did, on the other hand, get a good deal on the Akeda a while back from Woodcraft. As a matter of fact, I believe they have a special going on right now on it. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Jerry

[John Miliunas]

John,
I looked everywhere and I can't find the receipt for the DowelMax OR my Akeda Jig. I really am losing it. I don't however, remember finding any kind of deal on the DowelMax & I'm pretty sure I got it from the co. I did, on the other hand, get a good deal on the Akeda a while back from Woodcraft. As a matter of fact, I believe they have a special going on right now on it. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Jerry

Thanks anyhow, Jerry! Yeah, I've got my eye on that Akeda, as well. :) But, BOTH are some big bucks!:) :cool:

[Steve Aiken]

I purchased my Dowelmax directly from the company, O.M.S. Tools. You can order online at www.dowlmax.com (http://www.dowlmax.com) or by phone 1-877-986-9400.

I did not use the Dowelmax dowels. I picked up regular fluted dowels at HD or the local hardware store.

Steve

[Michael Melo]

I just placed my order for the Dowelmax.

I checked out the website after reading about it here and was mildly interested. I mean dowel joinery has been around a while, surely by now, dowel joinery and methods have reached the upper limit of design and implementation yes? NO. It wasn't until the most recent Woodworkers show here where I got to see it in person that I was absolutely convinced.

The company should hire a photographer to take macro shots of the seams of joined pieces. For those who have not touched two pieces of wood joined by this tool, its the next best thing to inidicate just how accurate it is. A long connection was demonstrated for us and the darn thing was both gapless and perfectly even with the adjoining piece in about 2 minutes (with a full explanation of the process...)

If you use biscuits for hidden joints this is better WAY better.

[Harish C. Mathur]

You can get it at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-2836009-9755140

If you can't find it on Amazon on at Costco -- you don't need it!

[Tim Sproul]

I'm a bit surprised.

Dowel joints (mainly those that are used instead of 'standard' mortise and tenon) in solid wood are notorious for failing over time. This failure is over many years.....not after just a few. IIRC, one of Hoadley's books gives a good account for why dowel joints fail. It has mainly to do with expansion and shrinkage of the dowel. The mortise that you've bored to accept the dowel is end grain on opposing faces and long grain on other opposing faces. Combine that with the relatively little glue surface and the expanding dowel compresses only the long grain faces since end grain resists compression better than long grain....so then the dowel preferentially destroys the only long grain to long grain glue surface it has. To assemble a doweled joint, the dowels need to be parallel....and so the only thing holding the joint together is the glue. Once the glue fails.....I have a friend who really likes his Dowelmax. IIRC, he only uses it for protoypes/models.

One might surmise that the same can be said of mortise and tenon....but my thinking would be that the mortise has much wider long grain walls which tend to flex rather than compress as the tenon expands. To make a mortise and tenon have longevity, one can easily mechanically lock a mortise and tenon which is not such an easy task with blind dowels.

I have repaired quite a few chairs that use round tenons in round mortises. I have not repaired many chairs that use traditional mortise and tenon joinery. But this may also just reflect the joinery numbers rather than the quality of joinery since I think there are many more chairs out there with doweled joinery versus regular mortise and tenon joinery.

[Gary Curtis]

Has anyone tried the Mafell or Hoffman Dual Dowel Jointer? From Germany. It has a fence like a Biscuit jointer and drills two parallel holes at the same time along an edge.

Close to the price of a Lamello. But if biscuits are so much trouble, I don't want to go there.

[Steve Schoene]

I have heard Norm say several times lately he has quit using bisciuits to glue up panels as the wood tends to dry and shrink overtime in the area of the biscuits and it leaves a little depression in the wood where the biscuits are. He just joints them and glues them up now.

Corey

Yeah, that happens if you work on Norm's schedule. You have to WAIT at least several days before surfacing the glued up panel for the moisture from the glue to equalize. Should do it anyway, or you risk sunken joints.

Of course, having defended the biscuits, I can't say I use them for joining panels. Glue works just fine, with a caul (and a hammer) to get them aligned. I do use my bisquit joiner to put together quick and dirty shop jigs.

[Corey Hallagan]

Good to know. Thanks Steve!

Corey

[Michael Melo]

Tim,

Dowel joinery may not have the longevity of a M/T. I haven't really found anything conclusive either way, but what you mentioned makes sense. Regardless I use dowels where appropriate like I would any joinery method.

One thing we all know is; all glue joints fail at some point. Its just a matter of when.

My father ran a furniture repair and refinishing business for some time and came across all types of failed joints. His found dowels one of the easier joints to repair as it simply required a new set of dowels, where dowels were stuck a flush cut and re-drill was all that was needed. M/T were not much more difficult usually requiring the addition of new material to tighten the connection again (unless the tenon was broken thats in league with his least...) Dovetails were his least "favourite."