"Smart Shaper" ?

[Chris Stormer]

I've been lurking here awhile. I don't have much to contribute but I have lots of questions :)

I saw someone the other day say planers & jointers are dump machines save your money on those and use it on a smart shaper.

What would you guys consider a smart shaper? I'm purchasing for production use and my budget is about 5k-10k for a shaper. Would a SCMI T55W fit the bill as the type of shaper you guys would recommend.

Thanks

[Peter Quinn]

That is a very reasonable small shop shaper with some nice features. I don't consider the shaper to be a complicated machine at its base, they certainly can get expensive at the high end with CNC controls for height and fence alignment. The t-55w is on the heavier end of the minimax line and it seems designed to do about anything you might need. If you make tons of different door profiles a class series machine with quick change programmable spindles might be a better long term investment though start up is much higher. If you plan to make large entry doors with solid tenons a t130 with side tenon carriage might be in order. If you want to make large curved architectural moldings like curved crown a bigger table would be an asset. But a t-55 could probable handle any of it and with a foot print that doesn't eat too much floor space. At home I use a t-40, and I wouldn't trade it for almost anything. It's not as robust as a t-55 or many larger machines, but it's very capable and it's small foot print in my small shop makes it very easy to accommodate. I'm using a t-130 slider now at work and have to switch from slider straights quite often, I'd love to be able to just slide the carriage back out of the way and pivot my fence, but it's still very manageable. Tilt is one of those features I have found of limited use in my work, a more creative person or one with different needs might feel differently?

I didn't initially understand what the "smart shaper" comment meant in the other post and still don't. IMO smart shapers start around $25k new, until then you need to be a smart guy and manage your setups and production efficiently with a good basic unit. They need a good square fence with accurate adjustments, a stout spindle that spins true, a sliding table is very useful, and a precise raise/lower mechanism. Big motor doesn't hurt either, 9 hp gets you into the not taking any guff range!

[Max Neu]

I bought a "smart shaper" last year,I bought a brand new Martin T27 Flex.It is an awesome piece of equipment.I do lots of different door styles and various profiles,so dedicated shapers just didn't make sense anymore.It's amazing how fast and precise setup time is on these modern shapers,they will spoil you!Since setup time is so quick and precise,I was able to get rid of of other dedicated shapers and make room for other more useful pieces of equipment.They aren't for everyone,but I would never go back to the old way.

[J.R. Rutter]

I bought a used SCMI T130 Class a few years ago. Like Max said, it is very easy to use once the initial setups are done and stored. It does require a bunch of extra spindles to really get the most out of the automated setup, and I have ended up stacking some spindles with smaller diameter cutters even though I have 15+ spindles. I ended up with a dumb version of the same shaper to use as a dedicated cope/stick station. The spindles pop in/out in seconds with no need to move and fences out of the way, but there is no programmable setup. This combination of shapers replaced 5 quasi-dedicated machines.

[peter gagliardi]

I was the one who referenced a "smart shaper". What I meant was a shaper that has good and accurate digital read outs on the fence, spindle height, and tilt if you want it. The really smart ones, like the T27 even let you program in different heads and specific settings.
It doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a Martin, but people are rarely sorry they bought too much tool, the world is littered with folks who buy too little.
I hope this thread doesn't degenerate .
People always justify the cost of a machine by just that -cost, as in how much you pay. If you are running a custom shop, for a living, I would argue that you need to look at what the "cost" is to have a basic machine vs, some automation.
I have owned all manner of shaper, but I now own a Martin T26 I can, do and have set it and any of the others up for simple and complex stuff.
Simply put, you have to factor in the cost equation your time to set up each and every time for each different task. On simple stuff like changing a basic cutterhead, and dialing it in, old style involves swapping cutter, having several test pieces and test cuts per setup- usually a 5-10 minute affair. Doesn't seem like a lot.
Now on a "smart shaper" I can do it in about 1-11/2 minutes, saving on average about +/- 5 minutes a setup.
Now multiply that by 5-10 changes in a day, x 250 work days a year, = 145 hours on average that you either saved @ a nominal $60 per hour = $8700.00 . Or that was 145 hours you could have been working on other jobs getting that rate.
The jointer, and planer, no matter how fancy just can't do that.
The money machines in a shop are the shaper, and a molder if you have the workload.
The above are grossly oversimplified of course, but you get the picture.

[peter gagliardi]

Note: payback is much higher and faster if you do complex setups, the above was a very basic comparison

[Peter Quinn]

Peter's comments above very much clarify the smart shaper idea, which is what I was thinking it was. I see great value in that level of machine as a mechanic but have rarely been able to convince a shop owner of that. More progressive types get it....or those that can do math! You can buy back hundred of squAre feet of shop space and free up labor hours for more productive activities. Down side...I've seen too many guys selling a pile of smart equipment at their foreclosure sale because their ambitions were larger than their market. Not an easy line to walk building a business. If the smart shaper is not in your present budget keep in on the radar , and build smart systems to compensate. I use the digital height gauge, label bushings, mark set ups accurately, make gauge blocks to set fence depth, trying to shave a few minutes off of the 5 minute set up time, you don't make money when the machine is off!

[Chris Stormer]

Peter,

Thanks so much. For sure you made it clear that I do not need a smart shaper. I just need a really dependable shaper. I'm not doing a lot of different setups.

[Max Neu]

Chris,
Since you decided a CNC shaper is not for you,I would suggest an SCMI T130.Before I bought my Martin,I had a 2003 model that had mechanical readouts on the spindle and fence,I just kept a notebook with all my setups,those shapers are workhorses also.You may also want to consider a tilting spindle,I have found that to be very handy at times since owning my Martin.