Need Fujitsu mini split question answered ASAP please.

[Raymond Fries]

Is there any reason why the lines that come out of the indoor unit and down to the outside unit cannot run along the foundation so the outside unit can be placed somewhere except right below where the inside unit is located? The unit is so tall that the windows in the greenhouse room cannot be opened all the way. It just looks like an after thought there. We want to locate the outdoor unit around the corner on another wall. The unit was set today but not charged or electrical hooked up. They are coming back Friday to complete it. I might add that they would have to extend the existing lines that they connected. I do not see this as a problem.

[Rich Enders]

Raymond,

I have the LG Mini-Split but it is probably similar to yours. My inside unit is about 8' off the floor and it blows directly onto my garage work area. The supply and return go from there up into the attic and then about 80 feet in the attic to where they break through to the outside and drop down through a soffit to the outside unit. The reason this extra distance was required was because the location of the outside unit was specified by local zoning. The only other thing in the vicinity of the inside unit is the condensate drain which is punched into the exterior wall, drops down and drains to the ground outside. There was an extra cost for the unusual supply and return footage, but I had no choice.

[Mike Lassiter]

Raymond you can download the manual for their systems from their website. I installed my system and got the selling dealer to do his pressure test and pull vacuum before opening valves on condenser unit ( and give his blessing on my work for warranty) about 3 years ago now. From memory I believe there was a minimum of around 16 feet of tubing required to avoid noise (I think) and much longer maximum. You don't have to mount it under the inside unit. I installed mine on a wall mount bracket and raised it about 1-1/2 feet off the ground. On the end wall of the building our laser and other equipment is in. Up high weed eating possess no danger hitting the unit or any lines or wiring to it.

[Brad Adams]

I am a Fujitsu certified installer. The outdoor unit can be mounted anywhere you like it to be. 75' is about the maximum distance between the two units.

[Raymond Fries]

Thanks so much for the tips guys. Especially Brad's. Hopefully, it will not get messy when I ask it to be moved today. I kinda feel bad since it is already connected to the copper coming from the inside unit. It was just a surprise and I thought there was not an other option. You see, the original plan was a two head unit to supply the workshop and the greenhouse room. The outdoor unit was to be placed outside the workshop and the line going to the greenhouse room would be installed in the attic. Well, on install day they decided that they could not run the lines in the attic because of access. So the sales guy said he would install two separate units and eat the cost difference because it was their mistake. So the guys just put it under the windows in the greenhouse room. It will be so much nicer around the corner on a wall with no windows. Will let you know what happens.

[Joe Leigh]

As long as the total length of run does not exceed the manufacturers specifications.

These units are critically charged so some additional refrigerant will have to be added to account for the additional piping.

[Raymond Fries]

Well that was a very stressful phone call. The contractor finally agreed to move the unit. I feel bad because I did say it was OK to put it there but had no idea of the size. Here is what they did:

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Nice looking unit but I hate where it is installed. We cannot even open the windows all the way. If I would have known the size and a little time to think about it, I would have chosen the place below before it was placed here. I want it moved to the end of the wall by the tall grass with no windows. That is only about 35' away from where it is now. The A/C unit is in the middle of this wall and you can barely see the electrical for the new mini split for the shop at the far right of the picture. All of the utility stuff is already on this wall so it blends right in.

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Why would they have not suggested to put it there to start with? I am tempted to offer to split the moving cost with them because of the misunderstending on both sides. What would you do? Would you have just left it sit there?

The location for one of these is an excellent consideration for anyone considering an installation because this is a TALL unit.

[Brad Adams]

When we bid jobs, we try to stay competitive with the next guy. They guys were probably told to install it as easy as possible. After seeing your pics of the unit, I feel that that is an unacceptable spot to put it. You are the one that has to live with it. Don't feel bad about making them move it. I can assure you they had some cushion in there price. They just won't have quite as much profit in the job. A happy customer is a good profit in itself.

[Raymond Fries]

Brad,

the plastic covering that runs down the outside of the house to cover the copper lines currently stops like halfway between the bottom of the windows and the bottom of the siding on the house. Should this be replaced so that the plastic covering extends to the bottom of the siding? is it ok for the tubes with the insulation to run around the house, or, should this plastic covering be ran to the moved unit as well?

I just want a good and nice looking install even if it comes to paying more because it was not in the original quote.

thanks so much for your tips.

[Joe Leigh]

Why is the unit elevated like that?

Why not just sitting on the pad? That might provide clearance for the window to open.

Moving the unit requires power and control wiring to go around one inside and two outside corners as well as the refrigerant piping. That would be less attractive than the current position in my opinion.

[Brad Adams]

The line sets can be installed without the channel. It is just to make the install look good. The unit is elevated because it is a heat pump. The snow stands let the water run out, in defrost mode in the winter.

[Rich Enders]

I note the explanation for the elevation of the outside unit. In my opinion that is not a very attractive. Isn't there some other way to deal with the defrost mode in winter?

I have attached a photo of our outside unit. FYI, it is 32 inches tall.


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[Raymond Fries]

I agree that it is not the most attractive up on the cones. Your install looks way more professional. The installers said it needed to be up because of the snow. We are planning on planting low growing plants like maybe some hostas to hide it.

I am just glad it is getting moved from under the windows to the side of the house. I can live with hiding the cones and extra space with plants.

[Joe Leigh]

The line sets can be installed without the channel. It is just to make the install look good. The unit is elevated because it is a heat pump. The snow stands let the water run out, in defrost mode in the winter.

We've installed hundreds of heat pump mini splits every year and never elevated a single one. Reverse cycle refrigeration is not efficient and typically does not run in mechanical heat when the temperature is cold enough for snow. This ambient temperature point is called the "balance point" and in the northeast U.S. is about 35 degrees. Below that point electric supplemental heat is needed.
To simplify, if it's snowing the compressor ain't running. Again, no reason for that unit elevation.

[Raymond Fries]

We were told that this is a new inverter technology and it is efficient down to minus 25 degrees and our room would be just fine all winter.

[Joe Leigh]

Practically every mini split manufactured in the last 8-10 years has inverter technology. It's nothing new.
I have a high end unit in my own home. Outside temps fall below 40 deg F and they put out very little heat.
They work well on 45-60 degree days to help take the chill out, but below that there's very little heating capacity.

Im not sure how cold it gets in your area, but I assume you have some secondary heat source?

P.s. the unit is located way too close to the house. Hard to tell from the pic but it appears to be only 12-14 inches from the house. Not nearly far enough to insure proper air circulation.

A quick check of the Fujitsu website shows the heating output for the 12-18-24k btu inverter heat pumps are all rated at 47 deg F. As the ambient falls below that the heating output falls.

[Brad Adams]

The new Fujitsu units maintain full capacity down to 20 degrees. They still work down to minus 15. 12" is plenty of room for circulation.

[Joe Leigh]

Sorry, but no heat pump works to full capacity down to 20deg F regardless of the manufacturer without a supplemental heat source. Even if it did that's a long long way from zero or below at which point the unit would produce little to no heat.

Also, I haven't seen a manufacturer yet whose inlet clearance was less than 18"
based on those pics I'd say he has less than 12"

Edit: I just checked the Fujitsu tech submittals on their Halcyon heat pump products and the entire line shows approx 50% reduction in capacity at 17 deg F. The capacities are not available below this number but you can bet they are much lower.

[David Weaver]

There are a lot of numbers thrown around with different units. My mitsu literature said the unit was 100% efficient at zero degrees. I would assume that means that I am getting the same efficiency more or less that I'd get from a coil heater when pre-heat current use is figured in. I believe it will deliver close to its rated 15k btu around 0 degrees, too, but at closer to 2kw than the 950 or so watts that the unit uses at temperatures where preheat isn't required.

Joe, presume you are saying that they lose their ability to work without any supplemental heat in the unit below about 45 degrees? Because they certainly will still generate a lot of heat at 20 degrees, or even zero, just not without supplemental heat.

[Raymond Fries]

We were told that we did not need a secondary heat source with this unit and the existing unit was disconnected to use the power for the mini split. I hope we were told the truth as I would hate to see all of my wife's garden be lost next winter. The salesman said they have a four head unit at their office here in Fort Wayne and it works fine all winter. They are coming back to install the dehumidifier and run the drain out the exterior wall into a french drain. They had to do the call before you dig thing. And it should be all finished.

[Brad Adams]

Don't worry, Raymond. The unit will work. The new extra low temp Fujitsu units are great. To someone who hasn't installed or used one, they just don't understand.

[David Weaver]

Raymond, as I mentioned, I got a mitsu - but it is very similar to the fujitsu in function, capabilities and efficiency. My unit will work down to -13F, and it's in an area on my house that can be closed off to supplemental heat (very very similar to yours, a converted porch that is a large room now with a lot of window surface.

My inlaws stay in there during the winter when they visit, and they close the door. This past winter, they stayed in there for the better part of a week where it was below zero most nights and had no issues at all. My electricity bill was a little higher than normal, but not much.

Your garden would only be in danger if the unit actually broke.

[Raymond Fries]

Well - They moved the unit today and both units are installed and operational now. It will be so nice to have A/C in the shop this summer. Will post a couple of pics later.

Thanks for the encouragement guys!

David - Good to hear you have a similar room and it works just fine. We do have a plan should we lose power. I have a couple of space heaters that we can run from the power inverter I got to hook up to the car.

Brad - Can you offer and advice on the dehumidifier that must be installed for the winter. The unit will be installed on the exterior wall just to the right of where the channel runs down. They plan to drill through the wall and run the drain pipe out of the wall and into a french drain. I have never heard of this but the contractor said it is a 2' deep hole filled with gravel. Since the hole is below the frost line it will not freeze. Someone told me this would not work but I do not see what he problem is. I guess I should just trust my contractor as everything has been just fine so far...

[Joe Leigh]

Joe, presume you are saying that they lose their ability to work without any supplemental heat in the unit below about 45 degrees? Because they certainly will still generate a lot of heat at 20 degrees, or even zero, just not without supplemental heat.

David, not sure if the OPs unit has supplemental heat, but a look at the submittals for that heat pump line show that the mechanical heating, that is compressor operation, at 17 deg F. drops to approx 50% of the rated capacity which is 47deg F. Same issue on the cooling side which is rated like most manufacturers at 95deg F. Once the ambient climbs above that the capacity drops.

The other consideration, if you look at the picture of the area in question, is the large amount of window/glass area. As the outdoor temperature falls the temperature of the air being delivered from the indoor unit also drops making the area feel drafty if no supplemental heat is used.

[Joe Leigh]

To someone who hasn't installed or used one, they just don't understand.

Actually we're one of the three largest ductless mini split installation contractors in the North East.

Anyway, good luck.

[David Weaver]

I don't know how his room will be - mine has 13 windows and a door and I have no issue. The other part of the house is more drafty.

I get what you're saying about the mechanical heating, but the supplemental heat makes up for it. You just have to pay the extra in the current used to run it like that.

My unit is a bit oversized for the space (15k btu for essentially 250 or 300 sq feet, but that space is on a slab with 13 windows and a door and only 4 inches of insulation overhead), so I've never had to push the unit and it's never struggled to heat it, even this past year when it was -5 overnight. The rest of the house was made in the 50s. The room the split is for is the most comfortable room in the house - maybe that will change when the windows are no longer so new and so tight.

I can't imagine the fujitsu unit wouldn't have supplemental heat. I had the same concerns, despite mine having supp heat, that it would get behind in really cold weather, but in the end they were unfounded.....as long as the outside temp doesn't drop below -13. If it does, it'll only be a concern for me if the inlaws are in town. For raymond, it'll only be a concern basically if he can't adapt any other type of heat to the room to avoid a hard frost in the greenhouse.

[Brad Adams]

Joe, you aren't looking at the specs for the right heat pump. The new Fujitsu extra low temp unit is a totally different animal than what you are thinking of. It WILL produce full heat capacity at 20 degrees. If you like I can send you the capacity charts. Above 20 degrees they actually produce more heat than labeled. I have installed a few of them, and with as cold as it was last winter I would have had complaints. I didn't believe it myself until we installed them. The rooms we installed them in, just like Raymond's, heated great with no back up heat.

[Brad Adams]

Also, I haven't seen a manufacturer yet whose inlet clearance was less than 18"


Not that you should install them that close, the Fujitsu specs for rear clearance is actually only 4".

[Brad Adams]

Brad - Can you offer and advice on the dehumidifier that must be installed for the winter.

Can't comment on that as I have never installed one like that. But I would trust your contractor, they now what is best in your area.

[Raymond Fries]

Our room is 14' x 16' with 22 windows, a door with glass, and 4 skylights. The rest is well insulated. I expressed my concerns about this winter and the installers told me today that the Fujitsu is more efficient than the 4,600 watt PTEC (sp?) unit we currently had. He said he has never had a call stating that the new units did not heat in winter. Guess time will tell.

[Mike Lassiter]

I have a Fujitsu mini split system in the 12x32 building we have our laser and embroidery machine in. I am extremely please with it! I cut out an opening above a end wall window for a Home Depot window unit heat/air combination unit when we finished the building after it was delivered. The unit was ok, it did the job: however you either had heat or a/c. In a/c mode it had an energy saver feature that would shut the blower fan off for about 5 minutes then turn it on to take a temperature sample to see if the unit needed to come back on. If not fan shuts back off. On heat, which was strictly resistance strip heat the fan ran non-stop. There are times here where it is cool at night and then heats up during the day. At the time I put the Fujitsu system in nobody is home during the day to change from heat to cooling. Several days I came in to find the inside temperature well above the recommended range of the laser. We have a ULS ILS with a 60 & 75 watt cartridges and have more invested in it than my home. Very adamant about trying to baby it and make those cartridges last. I removed the unit and closed the opening in the wall and installed the inside unit in that same area and mounted the outside unit on the left corner of that end wall.

So the Fujitsu also has a remote control and you can set it on "auto" and the fan also can be set to "auto" and the unit will basically run on autopilot. When the inside gets above temp it will automatically change to cooling mode. If it gets below temp it will automatically change to heat mode. The fan speed changes according to demand. When they unit is "idling" the fan blows very slightly but still moves and circulates air. With the old combination heat/air unit it cost us around $100 each month in the winter (West TN) to heat the 12x32 building. Insulated very well ( I did all of this myself), but has the 6 cheap single pane windows still the builder put on it. The Fujitsu system runs in the $30 a month range during the winter. Cooling during the summer not that much difference but the Fujitsu is slightly lower again in the $35 range. This is hard to qualify as running the laser (240 volt) also requires running a 3-1/2" HP exhaust unit and sometimes the Craftsman air compressor while cutting. As anyone imagine these will increase electric cost way more than the Fujitsu system alone.
When the power has gone out, the unit resumes operation just like nothing happened. I think my unit has a SEER of 25. It has heated the building just fine in the single digits and even during some at zero give or take a degree or two. We got some money back on it but couldn't get the highest tax rebate due to this was not our residence. It was classified as a commercial building and only got $75 credit back from TVA I think.

Raymond if your installing dealer correctly sized your unit for your room, you are going to be pretty happy with the cost to run it, and the constant temperature it will give without you having to manually change from heating at night to cooling in the daytime during those times of year that can happen.

[Raymond Fries]

Mike - sounds great and it should work fine for us. He put in an 18K unit for a 224 sq ft room. I also have the same size unit in the garage for my workshop. The electric bill sounds very nice as last winter we paid like $150 - $200 per month for that room. OUCH!

I really like it in the new location compared to the pictures below where it all started. We just need to do a little landscaping to hide the tubes running around the foundation. They are also going to extend the channel to the bottom of the siding when they come back to install the dehumidifier. Here are a couple of pictures:

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I am still a little concerned from some of the other views here. But even if the room cannot maintain 70 - 80 degrees this winter, she can plant cole crops which need a cooler environment. We shall see what the future brings.

Once again - thanks for everyone's feedback and hopefully this discussion will help someone else avoid the equipment placement that happened here.

[David Weaver]

Raymond, it'll have absolutely no trouble with that room. We're in the same ballpark with our room using a 15k btu unit here, and it loafs to get to 72 degrees. If we leave the unit off and shut the door and let that space go down to 45 or so, it's so fast back up to 72 when we turn the unit on that it's almost hard to believe. I'd bet your heating bill will be a third of what it was before.