What Are Your Expectations?....

[Mark Blatter]

I fully understand that I have an unreasonable expectation when it comes to customer service. Perhaps my views border on fanatical, but having been in the service industry for the better part of 30 years, I know what I give my customers.

Here is a situation that came up this weekend.

Ten years ago, Dec 2004, I bought a Unisaw from Delta. I have enjoyed the saw for that time and made a fair bit of saw dust. At the time, Delta was offering a rebate of $50 or one of several free tools. I submitted my paperwork, filed my copy away and promptly forgot about it. Of course as happens with so many rebates, it was never fulfilled. I came across the paperwork over the weekend and out of curiosity called the number on the application. The fulfillment company no longer does work for Delta, but I looked up the Delta number on line and called.

I talked with a lady who said that Delta at that time was owned by a different company and the current company had nothing to go from, had no responsibility and would not be able to help me.

OK, I cannot say they are wrong, from any and all viewpoints, except one. Namely customer service. If it had been me, I would have at least explored more about it and tried to do something. From my viewpoint, I don't care who owns Delta today, it is the brand, not the ownership. When it comes time to replace or add tools, will I buy Delta? Perhaps, but the likelihood is lower today than last Friday, for two reasons. One I understand better how often the ownership changes, and two, the current owners don't seem to care much. Who will stand behind a purchase in a year or two?

Again, perhaps I have unreasonable expectations, but service is service. An example is that in 2007 I bought a cabinet company and two years after I bought it, I had a guy stop in that had bought cabinets from the previous owner in 1999. The lacquer finish had worn off on the sink cabinet and didn't look the best. Plus of course the wood was going to start degrading. He asked what I could do for him. Short story is that I went to his house and removed the doors from the sink cabinet, plus the one on each side and took them back to the shop. We sanded them down, cleaned them up, then resprayed them. I delivered them back to him and he was very happy. When he asked what the bill was, I said 'No charge.' Was I right? Should I have charged him? I probably should have, but I knew that the previous owner had some lacquer issues and the cabs should have lasted longer. I felt that the right thing to so was not charge him. My cost was about $200 or perhaps a little more. From a customer service viewpoint, charging him was the wrong thing to do. From every other perspective, I should have charged him. It wasn't even the idea of him complaining to others as I don't think he would have done so, but how many people did he tell about the service he received?

I would love to hear others thoughts.

[Matt Meiser]

Seriously, 10 years later?

I have a real hard time defending the current incarnation of Delta (which was bought by Black and Decker, which in turn was bought by Stanley, and was then sold off to a new owner in that 10 years) from anything but 10 years later and you're calling about a rebate????

[David Hostetler]

I rarely say this about customer service issues, but you let this slide for 10 years and now you are digging into it? Not going to get much sympathy from me on it, particularly since the Delta tool company of 2014 is not the same company that was in 2004...

Actually with the rapid hands changing of Delta I would be very leery of buying anything from them as you have no clue of who will be there to provide service down the road...

[Craig Behnke]

your service on the cabinets was among the best a customer could ever get. that level of service is rare. i would not have an expectation for a company with different ownership to honor a rebate from 10 years ago until i read the terms of the rebate offer. sometimes its not about what we think is right, it's about the terms of the offer both that parties agreed to. with that said...i personally wouldn't spend more than 5 minutes trying to get a $50 refund from 10 years ago. If it was going to take more than 5 minutes, my time is worth more than the money, hassle, and effort to chase down that tired old rebate.

[Lloyd McKinlay]

Mark, I agree with you completely. What passes for "customer service" at most companies today is pathetic. With regards to Delta they should have shown some concern and, as you said, tried to explore the options. Yes, you should have followed up in a timely manner, which you obviously realize. Conversely Delta should have employed a firm which was capable of processing the rebate. Delta had a financial incentive to offer a mail in rebate rather than money off at the point of sale as well as an incentive to make the rebate process inefficient. Many studies show less than half of all rebates are redeemed.

As to your example with the cabinet I bet you got your monies worth with word of mouth advertising.

[Yonak Hawkins]

Mark, if it were me, I would send a letter to the president of Delta, saying exactly what you wrote in your post and see what kind of response you get. It only costs 49¢.

[John Schweikert]

Move on. Life is short. Far more important things in this world.

[Duane Meadows]

I would not have the guts to even ask after 10 years. I wouldn't expect free repair on cabinets after 10 years either. Especially if the company had been sold.

I am all for reasonable customer service, but a 10 year old rebate when the only one(you) of the parties involved still exist? Some customers are worth divorcing! Sure, they should have honored the rebate 10 years ago, but if they did not and you let it slide for 10 years, I don't see where you have any right to complain.

Just curious, is the cabinet business still going?

[Mark Bolton]

How much money can you expect any arbitrary company to outlay on a roll of the dice from a past owners perfomance? Expecting any company to blanketly absorb the prior owners issues is utterly ludicrous.

A stretch is phrasing it pleasantly.

While your interaction with your companies prior customer may have lead to some good faith business on their part, you more than likely opened yourself up for a possible litany of other past customers to wipe you off the face of the earth with refinishing of work based on precedence.

A long shot either way but bad business to say the least.

[HANK METZ]

The results of their honoring a prior transaction could be construed as accepting of past owner/ operators debts. I worked for a manufacturer that went belly up, a financial investment group purchased the assets, but not liabilities from the bank after foreclosure. I was one of the few former employees retained for the restart; we were given explicit instructions to refuse any incoming shipments with the old name and advise the vendors to reship with the new one for just such a legal reason.

[Bill White]

Wanna buy a great Delta plant????
There's one for sale here in Tupelo, MS.
What a shame that a great brand has now turned to the Asian generic stuff.
Wanna buy some Delta parts? Hahahaha!!!!
Bill

[Peter Quinn]

While I'm no fan of Delta's customer service, or their exorbanant consumables costs (like the $45/qrt gear box oil and the most expensive belts on the planet), or the fact that you are lucky to get parts if you need them and will probably gasp at the price when you do.....I'm going to have a hard time faulting them for this one. 10 years later? Yes, it shows poor form that "Delta" in what ever incarnation they were in at the time didn't honor their sales gimmick at the time...but Delta has established a history of showing poor form so its at least not a surprise. You have genuinely missed your window to voice complaints about this, statute of limitations has expired, there is no context under which you should expect any company to honor a 10 year old claim for unreceived promo goods. I vote move on. If you want to hold something against them and not buy another machine from them there are a lot better reasons than this. They went from being owned by a tool company, to a hair dryer company, to a toaster oven company.....back to a hand tool and hardware company which quickly sold them...to what ever they are now. I consider them the junk bond of power tools at this point and would need some considerable convincing to have any confidence in them at all.

[Dave Zellers]

Dude, you're the one who waited 10 years not them. It was your responsibility to follow up on this after about 3-4 months.

The tools Delta makes today aren't even expected to last 10 years...

35 years ago it was a HUGE deal for me to be able to move up from Sears tools to Delta. You can't even imagine. I felt like a professional for the first time after years of struggling.

So sad to see this decline.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Ten years? What is the statute of limitations where you live? I had similar problems with Ridgid Lifetime Service Agreement (LSA.) Registered online and sent in paper work as required (same day as online registration.) Ridgid swore they never received papar work, so LSA wasn't in force. I reminded then that I had "Certificate of Mailing" in hand. Quickly was told to send copy of COM so they could activate LSA. That was last Oct, and LSA isn't in effect yet.

[eugene thomas]

Not to get off topic but seems like rigid is titening up on their lifetime deal now. Last time got replacement battries was told had to call in with cereal number details in so many days.

[Cary Falk]

How much money can you expect any arbitrary company to outlay on a roll of the dice from a past owners perfomance? Expecting any company to blanketly absorb the prior owners issues is utterly ludicrous.

A stretch is phrasing it pleasantly.

While your interaction with your companies prior customer may have lead to some good faith business on their part, you more than likely opened yourself up for a possible litany of other past customers to wipe you off the face of the earth with refinishing of work based on precedence.

A long shot either way but bad business to say the least.

This was my thoughts as well when I read this thread. Good on you for doing something nice, butt.......... You say it only cost you $200 but where do you draw the line, $2k, $2M? Most CS has gone down hill. Companies are more interested in getting new customers then keeping the ones they have. I'm no fan of Delta, but I don't think they did anything wrong. There are some people you can never please and you don't want/need as customers. One that expects them to honor a 10 year old rebate after they changed hands umpteen times is one of them.

[eugene thomas]

As to delta . Even if was still same owner who offered you the rebate. Think ya kind of dropped the ball. I would bet 50% of time get rebate from purchase have to call to get them moving on it.

[Wade Lippman]

There is probably a 50% chance you got the rebate and forgot about it. I sure don't know what rebate checks I got 10 years ago. Yeah, you meant to throw the paperwork out when you got the check, but you also meant to follow up on it 10 years ago.

Regarding Rigid's lifetime warranty... I bought two ROS from HD 6 years ago. Rigid refused to let me register because my HD receipt wasn't adequate. Maybe they needed a video of me buying it? Now that I think of it, I haven't bought a Rigid tool since.

[Mark Blatter]

Just a generic response to some of the thoughts expressed.

1. Delta had no responsibility to honor the rebate now. I believe I said that in my original post. I called out of curiosity to see what their reaction would be.

2. I know I didn't ever receive it because I didn't select the $50, I requested a cordless drill and I have never owned a Delta cordless.

3. I was not expecting Delta to do anything. As many pointed out, there was a certain responsibility on my part to follow up a short time after the fact and not let it go for ten years.

4. As to my honoring a request from a previous customer, that was 100% my decision. In the course of a couple of years we received perhaps 3 or 4 similar requests / complaints. I handled each one on a case by case basis. Some folks said they were willing to pay, so we agreed to a number that they thought was fair. The last one, they were an older couple and I just figured it was the right thing to do.

5. As for the shop itself, we closed our doors the end of 2009. The year I bought the shop the county issued about $70 million in building permits. In 2009 they issued about $7 million, of which about $3 million was a single house. To say the least, the economy tanked to the point that about half of all trades went out of business, if not more. Lumber stores that had been open for close to 100 years had to close.

My final thought is how a different company handled something similar. I believe it was Campbell's Soup Company that in the 1920s had put an ad in a magazine saying that anyone that sent in the ad along with a certain number of soup labels would receive a free poster. Years later, sometime in the late 80s or 90s, someone came across the ad and sent it in. The Campbell company still had three of the posters on hand, but as they were now quite valuable (in the range of $30K as I recall) they were framed and hanging in the offices. The president said to honor the request and not to worry about the value of the poster. I could be wrong on some of the details as my mind isn't what it used to be, but that is what I call class.

[Rick Fisher]

My first jointer was a Delta X 6" .. I bought it for $599.. It was during a promotion where you could pick one of 4 free gifts. I picked the 690LR Router. It arrived. That was probably about 12 years ago ?

I would not hold it against Delta if they didn't give you the $50 .. You can push them into it .. they might do it but I wouldn't feel good about it. They had a responsibility to pay you .. you had a responsibility to inform them in a reasonable time if they didn't.. Maybe the post man stole your drill ? Who knows.. its over now.

I wouldn't buy Delta tools because you will probably never get parts.. but I wouldn't hold the rebate against them .. lol

[John Sanford]

The "statute of limitations" may or may not be relevant, depending on whether or not such considerations have actual legal force in the case of rebates submitted in a timely fashion. Once the OP submitted the rebate paperwork, the entire onus on fulfillment falls upon the company, not the customer. His failure to follow up can only be considered with regards to any damages he may potentially claim, but it in now way relieves the company of the burden of performance with regards to the original contract.

The multiple changes of ownership may or may not have any bearing on the matter. We don't know the details of the purchases, nor do we know the whether or not the CS individual spoken to was delivering the truth, a company directed distraction, or something off the cuff intended to save hassle.

From a marketing perspective, Delta would be well advised to honor rebates of this sort. Frankly though, I suspect that there's no nefarious plot to deny rebates, for one simple reason. "What?? 10 years? Nobody ever thought about something like that!"

[Rick Fisher]

The press release on the sale of Delta to Chang Type said Chang Type purchased the assets including trademarks and designs..

If it was actually an asset sale then B+D would still owe the $50 ..

[HANK METZ]

The press release on the sale of Delta to Chang Type said Chang Type purchased the assets including trademarks and designs..

If it was actually an asset sale then B+D would still owe the $50 ..

See my prior post (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?218791-What-Are-Your-Expectations&p=2278657#post2278657) Rick; it is a standard business practice to purchase assets only and avoid liabilities like the o.p. tried to invoke.

[Brian Tymchak]

OK, I cannot say they are wrong, from any and all viewpoints, except one. Namely customer service. If it had been me, I would have at least explored more about it and tried to do something.



You are disturbed that the CS rep didn't even try to help you. More than likely, they have been trained to handle this situation and have a planned response. Your comparison to how you handled a customer service situation is completely different. You were the business owner, and a small business at that, empowered to make that kind of decision. And since the customer asked how much, I conclude you went well beyond any reasonable expectation the customer had. The CS rep has a line of management above them relying on call center metrics to determine this reps performance and next raise, if any. Since the situation was so clearly beyond reasonable expectations, if I were the CS rep, I likely would have given you the same answer. Did you ask to talk to a supervisor when you didn't get the answer you wanted? That is a typical escalation path for a customer to take. No harm in asking the question I guess, but give the CS rep a break.

[Mark Blatter]

You are disturbed that the CS rep didn't even try to help you. More than likely, they have been trained to handle this situation and have a planned response. Your comparison to how you handled a customer service situation is completely different. You were the business owner, and a small business at that, empowered to make that kind of decision. And since the customer asked how much, I conclude you went well beyond any reasonable expectation the customer had. The CS rep has a line of management above them relying on call center metrics to determine this reps performance and next raise, if any. Since the situation was so clearly beyond reasonable expectations, if I were the CS rep, I likely would have given you the same answer. Did you ask to talk to a supervisor when you didn't get the answer you wanted? That is a typical escalation path for a customer to take. No harm in asking the question I guess, but give the CS rep a break.

I didn't ask to speak with a supervisor for two reasons, first it just wasn't that important, and second because the rep put me on hold while she talked to someone else about it.

Let me be clear on this....my goal, the reason for even making the call in the first place, was to see how Delta handled it. A cordless drill that is worth about $50 isn't one that I would ever buy. If I was going to buy one, well honestly I don't know what I would buy today. Years past I would have looked at Milwaukee or possibly Dewalt, but I understand that these have changed hands and the quality has dropped. So many venerable tool brands have become junk that you never know what to buy. I called to see what the attitude was at Delta towards customer service. How that call was handled told me all I need to know. Since Delta also owns Dewalt and a number of other brands, I plan on staying away from them as well.

[Rod Sheridan]

To me, great customer service is what a company does when it is no longer legaly required to do so.

Anything else is simply complying with the law.

I have an example, about 20 years ago I purchased a rosewood/steel/brass try square from Lee Valley, it wasn't square at all.

It looked so nice in the tool crib that I never returned it.

10 years later I decided that keeping a not square in the tool crib was stupid so I took it back to LV.

They checked it, it wasn't square, and I had no proof that I had purchased it at LV.

A few weeks later I received a letter from Leonard Lee (President) indicating that they had to go back into their old catalogues to determine the last year that I could have purchased the square from them, and to please find enclosed a cheque for the full amount plus the appropriate Provincial sales tax for that year.

It wasn't a store credit, it was a cheque that I could spend as I wished, so of course I purchased a replacement square at LV.

That's customer service..............Rod.

[John Piwaron]

After 10 years of no follow up I'd leave it alone. This isn't so much about customer service as completing a transaction. It's long over. Forget it. I would.

As to the customer service of the current incarnation of Delta, I can only say good things. I had an issue with a new Unisaw that they handled in a very short amount of time. A week, tops. It was great. For the people "leery" of buying from them - why? In the case of a table saw, there's not much to go wrong with it. Basically these are old designs. Not too many parts in them, not much to go wrong. In a hobby shop. I'm not worried in the least.

[Mark Blatter]

Rod

I hear you completely. I bought a lawn mower from Costco in July of 2005 and used it to mow about an acre of lawn for the rest of that summer. The next year I tried to use the lawn mower but while it tried to start it just would not keep running. I took it to a small engine repair guy that lived close by and he spent a day going through it and finally said that it had to be inside the motor. I called Costco to see who the local warranty place was and they wouldn't tell me. They said, 'Bring it back.' I said no, it has been a year and no way I am going to bring it back. After about the fifth of sixth attempt to get the local warranty place, they convinced me to just bring it back, so I did. They of course looked up what I had paid and refunded it in full.

Costco may not be the greatest company in the world, but I cannot think of a better one anywhere. Why? Because their customer service is simply outstanding.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I would not expect them to even consider honoring a 10 year old rebate.

Maybe I have low expectations, but, I was shocked when I called Dewalt to figure out what I should do about a damaged piece (fake wood top on the 735 planer stand) that I had ordered mail order. They sent me a replacement top without asking for a copy of the receipt or anything. I did not expect that.

[Yonak Hawkins]

Awhile back I had a pair of Ridgid locking pliers which failed during an especially vigorous wrestling match with a fence post. Knowing Ridgid tools are warranted for life I returned them for replacement. I got a note back, along with the broken pliers, saying that line was no longer made and they couldn't replace them.

I felt they shouldn't be able to abandon their responsibility that way so I called customer service. When the rep said they couldn't replace them because they aren't made anymore I asked if they could send me a pair of pliers that replaced that design. Since they were a somewhat innovative design there wasn't a direct replacement but she said she would ask her boss when he was available.

I got a call later that day from an executive-level type who, after a short but interesting conversation, offered me one of two types of channel-lock-type or one style of vice-grip-type pliers to choose from, which he sent me with a nice note.

I now have no hesitation buying Ridgid tools. ..And now that I have posted this before such an august group of craftsmen, they may get an additional sale or two .. who knows ? Good customer service can go a long way in these days of broad internet communication.

On balance, I feel I must add that, like Bruce Wren and Wade Lippman, when registering for a warranty on another tool, I was irritated about how long it took and, I seem to remember having to call when the delivery time had lapsed. Hopefully, that's due to the beancounters' instructions to the fulfillment processors, not that that ameliorates the practice.

[Matt Meiser]

Since Delta also owns Dewalt and a number of other brands, I plan on staying away from them as well.

That is incorrect. The previous 2 owners (B&D, Stanley B&D) of the Delta brand owned Dewalt.

[Mark Blatter]

That is incorrect. The previous 2 owners (B&D, Stanley B&D) of the Delta brand owned Dewalt.

I may be mistaken, but from the call and the web page, I had the impression that Delta and Dewalt had the same owners. Thanks for the correction.

[Tom Walz]

How about I give you a $50 refund or $50 worth of credit fortools on our website. Www.carbideprocessors.com (http://www.carbideprocessors.com/)

I suppose I’m doing this for the same reason you fixed thatguy’s cabinets. Some of us were just taught the concept thatif you see something wrong then you should fix it if you can. (As with all philosophical concepts this getsa lot deeper.)

And then there’s the fact that helping people is what we do.About half the people who call have a real problem and need either the righttool or a better tool. We had up helping a fair percent of those withoutselling them anything. We do sell enoughof them to keep the doors open and the children fed.

Part of it is that the woodworking tool industry has a goodreputation over all for customer service and honesty. I would like to see that continue.

I think Brian Tymchak pretty well nailed the situation. One of the things we have to teach our newcustomer service reps is that they can and should spend money to take care ofthe customer. We call it the $50 rule. Essentially anyone who answers the phone canspend $50 or more if needed to take care of the customer. This covers a lot of replacement parts, rushshipping and so on.

The tool industry is full of small companies that give greatcustomer service. Someone starts abusiness, sells quality at fair prices, works their rear off, and really takescare of their customers. After manyyears of hard work, they have a successful company. Then some giant buys them and immediatelymakes changes to pay for the buyout. Typicallythis is lower quality, less service, a narrower selection and similar. I have been in the tool business since 1981and seen this pattern repeatedly.

[scott spencer]

If it was 10 months ago, it's on them. After 10 years, it's on you.

[Eric DeSilva]

The "statute of limitations" may or may not be relevant, depending on whether or not such considerations have actual legal force in the case of rebates submitted in a timely fashion. Once the OP submitted the rebate paperwork, the entire onus on fulfillment falls upon the company, not the customer. His failure to follow up can only be considered with regards to any damages

A statute of limitations basically requires claims to be pursued within a set period of time after they mature. Having submitted a valid rebate is a precondition to having a claim, but that isn't the issue. The legal claim would have matured one day after whatever date they said they would pay the rebate in (e.g., the fine print about when to expect a check). So he's been sleeping on his claim since whenever that date was, and a statute of limitation would certainly be relevant to his ability to pursue a legal remedy. You also authoritatively state that his failure to follow up would only be considered with regard to damages, but that isn't the way I understand damages to work.

[johnny means]

things like this is why Sears no longer replaces tape measures. People will inherently try to game the system.

[Don Huffer]

Wanna buy a great Delta plant????
There's one for sale here in Tupelo, MS.
What a shame that a great brand has now turned to the Asian generic stuff.
Wanna buy some Delta parts? Hahahaha!!!!
Bill

Parts are pretty easy to get. http://www.ereplacementparts.com/delta-parts-c-3275.html?ps=1&gclid=CNKP6Le_r6wCFZJS7AodLDxJHg

[Don Huffer]

My first jointer was a Delta X 6" .. I bought it for $599.. It was during a promotion where you could pick one of 4 free gifts. I picked the 690LR Router. It arrived. That was probably about 12 years ago ?

I would not hold it against Delta if they didn't give you the $50 .. You can push them into it .. they might do it but I wouldn't feel good about it. They had a responsibility to pay you .. you had a responsibility to inform them in a reasonable time if they didn't.. Maybe the post man stole your drill ? Who knows.. its over now.

I wouldn't buy Delta tools because you will probably never get parts.. but I wouldn't hold the rebate against them .. lol

Parts?
http://www.ereplacementparts.com/delta-parts-c-3275.html?ps=1&gclid=CNKP6Le_r6wCFZJS7AodLDxJHg

[Matt Meiser]

Sure its easy to find catalogs of parts. Try to actually get a part. Most parts not discontinued (and the list of those is quite long) is on indefinite backorder.

[jeff shanz]

I had some siding work done by a company several years ago and it had a 100%, no hassle warranty. If anything needed work in the future they would come and fix it at no charge. Four years later I did end up having a spot where a section of soffit came loose and it gapped enough for animals to get through. After calling to see what they could do, they said they were under new ownership and were not liable to honor the "old" warranties. The company however is allowed to keep the name, a name that has been around almost 90 years. There's an element of deception here.

I went to the BBB website and observed an F rating. I wasn't the only one with this complaint.
It's risky saying no to a customer when you consider how easy it is to tell people about it, but if companies operate in similiar ways, it can't hurt that much. Laws are made to favor the business so we have to plan accordingly.

[Chris Fournier]

Really? I don't think that you'll ever be a happy person. You missed the boat by ten years and now the problem is Delta's? Wow.

[William C Rogers]

I guess I don't see this as Delta issue. The fulfillment company dropped the ball. The paperwork went to that company, not Delta. How would Delta even know if you were paid. They are not going to sent out $50 to someone who says he didn't get his rebate. Delta may have well paid the fulfillment company, who didn't pay you. This is not a warranty issue or issue with a part, it is not a customer service issue to me. Maybe the post office lost the paperwork, who knows. But after 10 years it is unreasonable IMO to think any company would honor a rebate.

[Mark Blatter]

Tom

I appreciate the offer. At this point the only tool I really have my eye on a Saw Stop which is a little over the $50.

I am sure you will continue to prosper in business because the attitude you show to customers earns their business each and every day.