Keeping track of your time on a project

[John Gregory]

Since woodworking is a hobby for my wife and I. We don't have any "billable" hours. The bulk of our work is for family. But I have noticed that many people ask "how many hours do you have in that piece" The dresser set we made for our daughter (as seen in another thread) was started in February. I am sure like most of you, we get an hour or two here and their to work in the shop.

Starting with our next project (a lyptus dress for our oldest grandson) I am going to try to keep track of our shop time attributed to that project. Purely for interests sake.

My question is.... how do each of you keep track of your time on a project? What method(s) do you employ?

Thanks.
John

[Lee DeRaud]

My question is.... how do each of you keep track of your time on a project? What method(s) do you employ?"Method"? That would imply planning and organization. :eek:
I only seem to have two kinds of projects:
1. "I did that one last week, took about an afternoon."
2. "Let's see, I started that one last...February, wasn't it? Probably finish it up this fall, unless I get busy doing something else."

[Jay Knoll]

I spent too many years working in consulting where I had to keep track of time in 1/4 hour increments.

I don't want to do that with my hobby! Actually the best time is when my wife says, "don't you want to come in you've been out there 6 hours?" and I think I've only been at it for a half hour or so!

Jay

[Frank Pellow]

At the end of each week, I write a diary entry in a file on my computer. One of the things I usualy include is pictures of projects in progress, notes about the projects, and approximate time spent on the projects that week.

[Tyler Howell]

Billables get scratched on to a scrap of paper or the shop white board, then transfered to Excel. keeps pretty good records, list of materials and prints a nice invoice with letterhead.
I use Excel to inventory tools/equipment too.:cool:

[Lee Schierer]

I've tried various methods to keep track of hurs spent on projects since I've had a few projects that were pay projects. So far nothing has worked very well. The most successful was a pad on my work bench that I recorded dates and start times. Even if I forgot to fil in the quit time, when I would start the mnext session, I could recall about how long I worked in the previous session.

Of course you have to remember to fill in the date and the start time. :D

[Dan Oliphant]

John,

The method I use is to document the start and finish time for each process, ie set ups, tear downs, execution of each process. I do not include finish drying times in my labor documentation, but use it for overall project cycle time.

[John Stevens]

Thanks to John Gregory for raising this great question. I hope some of the pros here will chime in. Even for "hobbyists" like me, time and capital available for woodworking is limited, and keeping track of time can make it easier to decide whether to use one method of work or another (e.g., table saw vs router vs hand) or whether to DIY or "sub out" (e.g., milling stock or applying finish to completed pieces).


I'd be interested in hearing some of the ways of dividing time (e.g., transportation, stock prep, assembly, finishing, shop & tool maintenance) and using time data to determine what it really costs to produce finished work when your own time is included, and when it's cost-effective to buy another machine vs using what you've got.

Thanks in advance.

[Gail O'Rourke]

John G, Interesting question. I do woodworking full time, around my kids schedule of course. When I bill a job, I usually figure how many weeks it is going to take. I have a set amount I would like to get per week for my labor then I add the materials cost. I am much better at estimating the time it will take and not as good at estimating the materials cost, especially for the bigger jobs.

I do my best to make the least amounts of trips for stock, having to run out for one more piece of plywood can cut into half the day because of the distraction.

I am pleased when I come in under my time. I track all my expenses per project the way that I bookkeep and sometimes I will write down a note on how long it took me to complete it so that I can remember down the road.

Regarding finishing. I always allow one full week just for finish work. Oftentimes it takes less, but especially with finish, you never know and drying times can vary..

Gail

[John Hart]

To me...my time in the woodshop has no monetary value. It is where I recharge by focusing on something enjoyable. In that respect, it has value, but nothing I can put a price on. For that reason, I usually do not track time. Every time I've timed myself on a project, I've made a "hurried" mistake or enjoyed the time less.

[Carl Eyman]

At the end of a work session I often sit down to relax and perhaps plan what I'm going to do next session. While in this mode if I am keeping track of time, I'll make an entry in my journal for the project on what I did and how much time I spent. I'll also note any info that might be useful later such as dye formulas, sanding grits used, etc. When I reach to bottom of the page on my composition notebook I total the hours on that page and add it up at the end of the project.

[Jim Becker]

As a hobbyist, I don't keep track...but I would if it were a business or a commission piece at some point in the future. I'm not sure how at this point, but likely just a paper record tacked to the wall for simplicity...and this from a committed computer addict!

[Scott Coffelt]

I do a lot more upfront estimation than I do post analysis, but since my commish projects are not full time, I can afford to be wrong a little more often. If I was doing it full time, I might pay more attention to that detail. With that said, I think generally I keep a figure in my head of how much time I spent in the shop while working on a project, when it is done I try to verify that by the time I estimated... on bigger projects I often do a level set while going from step to step to see where I am at compared to estimates. I seem to always under estimate finishing hours, but often over estimate something else to make up for it.

One thing I know for sure is I no longer use the approach where I say oh that will be twice the cost of materials... them days of making $5/hr are over. Now I really try to think how much time it takes and add labor, misc. materials and shopping time. I figure the client want sme to use good wood for their project so for me to spend the time (or at least justify it back to me) to pick good wood, I do have to charge for it.

[John Gregory]

This has been interesting. And I hope to see more comments later today. I would expect someone earning money from this to take the time to track time. I am surprised that more hobbists do not track time more than they do. I see so many people ask "how much time do you have in the project" I felt that I was a minority NOT tracking my time. Tracking my time would be for personal interest only. I have been thinking of writing my start time on our Lee Valley calendar when we start and stop time when we end. Accuracy is not needed.

One reason I brought this up is that a few years ago my brother hired my wife and I to finish his basement. I was out of work at the time. With in a week I had work again. He still wanted us to do the work. We could only work on Saturdays, since he did not believe in working on Sunday. (Mormon). It took us about 9 months to complete 1100 sq feet. Since we had to track hours for him to pay us I know the time we spent. If my wife and I would have worked 40 hours weeks, we would have had it completed in a month NOT nine :D

Thanks to our family, and their wants and needs, we are never without a woodworking project. And I am lucky, my wife enjoys it as much as I do. We are a woodworking team. It is a very challenging hobby at times. :rolleyes:

[Joe Unni]

John - great question!!

I too do this full time and conversely to Gail, I'm better at estimating materials than time, but getting better. I mostly do my best to get the project completed before the day I promised another. That said, I currently DON'T have a mechanism in place to track time once I start a project, but I should.

It will be interesting to see how others respond.

-joe

[Mike Cutler]

John. I don't really keep track of hours. Like others, I use woodworking for relaxation :rolleyes:, and to relieve stress. Lately though I have been keeping track of how long certain facets of woodworking take.

John Stevens brought up a good point. Do we keep track of time spent on particular evolutions to increase our productivity, and save some time to do another project, which of course means more new tools.
As a case in point, my last project required a considerable amount of time for planing and joining rough stock. I had purchased some S2S and some rough cut. Due to the space limitations that I have, the joining/ planing and initial dimensioning, took 3 full days from start to finish. This has me considering a combo planer/joiner machine instead of the two stand alones I have now to minimize the time required to set up the shop for each evolution.
Another example is sanding. When faced with the task of all the sanding that I knew I was going to be doing, I bought a Performax Drum Sander, this greatly reduced all the rough sanding time, and was money well spent.

I had done a project last summer that required a considerable number of M&T joints. I did the mortises with a router, and the tenons on the table saw, which required each tenon to be rounded. Pretty time consuming actually, so when faced with a little over 400 of them in one project, I had to find a way to speed up the process, and bought a Delta bench to mortiser. After all those mortises I wish I had listened to my wife in the beginning and got the Powermatic floor model, with the tilting head ( I know.. I know...dumb )
Finishing time is a week for me. It doesn't seem to matter the size of the project, it just seems to take a week.Would an HVLP system help here?

[Don Baer]

Finishing time is a week for me. It doesn't seem to matter the size of the project, it just seems to take a week.Would an HVLP system help here?

It ain't gonna help the drying time or sanding between coast but it sure will make applying the finish quicker AND at least for me the results are a lot better.
Plus you can always use some new tools....:rolleyes:

[Dennis Peacock]

I am like several others here. I too don't track my time as this is my hobby and not my job. Now...I do take on commission jobs and I price them by the job based on materials to be used, design of what's to be built and how much they "pester" me after the project has been started. Changes come very expensive once I've started cutting wood. If they want to come and help, then that's fine with me. The price just trippled!!!! :eek:

Time? I got more time that I got money.....so I don't count time because I've got so much of it. Money? I can count all my money in 0.0000001 seconds!!!! :eek: :D

[Mike Vermeil]

I've stopped keeping track of the time spent on projects because it was getting too depressing!

I've been a remodeling contractor for about a year now, and the majority of my business has been cabinetry of different types. Initially, I was keeping very close track of my time - from design right through to finishing. Based upon my ten years or so of woodworking experience, prior to starting each job, actually prior to even quoting it, I broke down each project, estimating how much time each aspect would take, adding them all up and then multiplying by the $/hour I hoped to make. After adding material cost, which is pretty easy to calculate if you have some history to work from, I arrived at my "quoted" price. It took about two projects to realize that my time was too high when compared to going market rates. In order to bring my prices in line with the competition (which is too often small to medium sized furniture/cabinetry factories), I would cut back my time estimates to the bare minimum, cut a little more, and then hope for the best. Well, as you can imagine, I could never meet the time standards I had set in the quote. That got depressing, real, real fast - especially when I calculated out what I actually made per hour once the jobs were done.

Over this past year I've worked hard to reduce my mfg times, but due to shop & equipment limitations, that only goes so far. As my confidence in my own abilities has grown, I've also increased my prices bringing them more in line with the quality of product my customer is receiving. More & more I take the attitude that if the customer doesn't understand the difference in quality of both design and construction between my product and the more mass-produced competition, then he's not my type of customer. I was nervous initially about taking this position, but somewhat to my surprise, the jobs keep rollling in. I still have a tendency to undervalue my own work, but I'm getting better with every job.

Sorry for babbling. It's the end of the day, and I've been working in 110 degree heat!

[Per Swenson]

If I kept track of time I would probably give this up.
I do this for a living, I do this as a hobby, I do this as a life style.
I really don't do any thing else. Sure I have friends and family members,
but my friends are Carpenters and my children indentured servants.
I take commissions on large projects that last for months.
Prefab in the shop and then extensive install.
During long weeks of shop time, If I feel I need a break I will do
a small house job from the never ending list
of people that need a little something done. (This is New Jersey where a good
house carpenter is well, very busy or nonexistent.)
I have a bottom line number that I expect to net a year.
We try to exceed that within 8 mos. I have a two year waiting list.
Then again we cater to the client who says "it is what it is"
You see it is 9:45pm eastern standard time, after I hit the submit button
I am going to shoot 12 large cabinet doors with filler, because this
is what I do.
Per

[Frank Pellow]

...
I'd be interested in hearing some of the ways of dividing time (e.g., transportation, stock prep, assembly, finishing, shop & tool maintenance) and using time data to determine what it really costs to produce finished work when your own time is included, and when it's cost-effective to buy another machine vs using what you've got.
...
When I finish a project, I can usually give a rough breakdown of:
-design time
-material research and acquisition time
-productive work on project
-non productive work on project (and the reasons for this)
I hasten to add that woodworking and construction are hobbies for me. But, I do believe in working as "smart" as I can and I am always attempting to improve.

I guess that keeping statistics about all kinds of things is also a hobby. :D

[John Stevens]

When I finish a project, I can usually give a rough breakdown of: [snip]
-non productive work on project (and the reasons for this)
I hasten to add that woodworking and construction are hobbies for me. But, I do believe in working as "smart" as I can and I am always attempting to improve.


Thanks, Frank, I wouldn't have thought of that in a hundred years. Being a beginner, I spend a lot of time going back over my work to find the causes of errors, so your suggestion is one that'll surely help.

[George Matthews]

I do WW as a weekend/evening hobby. Much more for therapudic value than for anything else. My children all have their own homes and would like 'this-n-that' made. I made them a deal. They supply the materials and I'll keep track of time and attempt to share that time equally over the years. So a simple running list of hours and costs is all that I need.




Dresser
2005-05-24
5hr Design

2005-05-27
1.5hr Cut corner posts
*** 6bd ft of Dave's red oak.

2005-05-29
1/5hr Design

2005-06-03
1hr Picked up plywood at HD
$205.96
$300 to deposit from Julie

2005-06-04
7 Hr building carcus

2005-06-05
6hr building carcus

2005-06-21
3hr Mortis & Tenon jig

2005-06-23
3hr Make ends

2005-06-25
6hr Assemble ends

2005-06-27
4hr Web frame

2005-06-28
2hr Face frames

2005-06-30
3hr prepare face frames

2005-06-31
2.5hr glueup face frame, ends and webs

It is surprising how much time and money is invested. But my daughters quickly point out that the quality is very high and it will last for many generations.

[Lloyd Brown]

I have the easist way. A 7 year calender! The wife says some are going to need carbon dating to figure out the start date. :p

[Richard Wolf]

I guess that keeping statistics about all kinds of things is also a hobby. :D

I knew that.

Richard