Kitchen Cabinet Prototype Build

[Justin Jump]

Hello all,

Thought I would share my weekend project, and my thoughts and a few questions on my process and decisions.

First off, it’s a mockup of the upper cabinets that I plan to build for my kitchen. The face frame is 1.5” wide, and the stiles and rails are 2 7/16” wide. I used this number because the tenon depth is 7/16”, and it makes calculating the length of the rails very easy. I used maple on the frames, and poplar for the door, but I do plan on using soft maple for the production run.

I used the Freud Shaker style bit set.

The painted corner detail of the door is with soft maple, and the paint is Cabinet Coat from Benjamin Moore, not sure I am sold on this stuff yet, but I am still messing with the paint, both using just a brush and HVLP, but I need some more practice with HVLP.

I also cut 1/8” deep dado’s, mainly to help with locating all the box pieces during assembly and hold them in place while I drove the pocket screws.

I did finish a piece of ¾” birch before I cut it up for the pieces, just to get an idea, and glad I did. The first piece I ripped, had a nice scratch in the finish from the miter slot. Lesson learned here was I put some blue tape down on the table before I cut any more pieces.

I also took the opportunity to make two shop jigs for the build, I forgot to take some pics though, a cross cut slide for the saw, and a jig for the plunge router for the ¼” holes (see questions below on this one) for the shelves.

I also took the opportunity to make a few dovetail corners using the porter cable jig. I think I got it dialed in pretty well, but will have to adjust for my final drawer material.

I used pocket screw assembly on all the pieces, and glue. So if you guys don’t mind, I have a few questions…..

Questions….

¾” Plywood – really liking the stoutness, but I am question the cost difference from ½”, what is the consensus on this one. ¾” or ½” for the boxes?

The 2 7/16” stile and rail widths, do they look OK? Part of me thinks they might be a little too wide.

The holes for the adjustable shelves. I used a ¼” bit on a plunge router, and I bought 4-5 different pins, and it seems that even though they all are for a ¼” hole, they all are very sloppy. What’s the consensus here, is there a true ¼” pin, or should I order a smaller diameter bit?

Attaching the face frame to the box. My production and efficiency side of me says a butt joint is fine with glue and pocket screws, but should I dado these two together? I like the fact that not doing so gives me plenty of room for error, but then I look at HD or Lowes cheap store bought cabinets, and even those have the dado.

Painting the door…..even on the small corner mockup of the paint, I get the shrinkage holes along the edge where the groove is for the plywood panel. This is a pretty loose fit, I even took out all the shims on the Freud cutter to cut as small as a groove as possible, and it is still a loose fit for the ¼” plywood. Any suggestions here?

Any other comments and suggestions are welcome, especially in regards to the painting process. I had all intentions of building cherry cabinets, and just putting a slight tone to thim and finishing them with GF Water Based top coats, but the wife wants painted, hence my choice of changing over to soft maple.

THX

JJ in Pittsburgh

[Matt Meiser]

I like 2" rails and stiles myself, but I'd do another door mockup and see if you do. 1.5 is a good faceframe width overall, but assuming 1/2" overlay, add to that when you have adjacent doors (2" on the center stile of a double-door cabinet for example.

Paint--I used Sherwin Williams ProClassic on a couple projects and really liked it sprayed with an HVLP. I thinned 10% with water and used the largest needle set.

I've just done butt joints where FF's join to the box with pocket hole screws for clamping while the glue dries. On a cabinet that size I'd probably do 3 each side, 1 centered top/bottom or maybe 2.

For box construction, I've done dado's and glue and screws and I've done just screwed butt joints. Both are very strong. The latter is a lot less work if you can cut your panels accurately with no chipout. All 3/4" ply which makes hanging the uppers a breeze--no worries about where you can put screws but does make for heavier boxes. The weight is worth the simplicity to me.

What are your panels? I'd use MDF or MDF-core maple which should be very stable. You could always run a tiny bead of caulk before painting too.

[John A langley]

Justin two things on the doors because you're going to paint you could caulk where the panel needs the Door frame, second run the tenons first on your door it'll help with the chipping ,also Grass has come out with a self-contained soft close hinge it's the one piece and it's $.98 wholesale i'm going to be using them on the job that I'm working on now and I'll let you know how they are I would make my top rail little wider for some trim . Question are you going to put applied panels on the finished ends ,also consider putting a quarter inch finish panel on the bottom Too hide the pocket screws you might want to make your bottom rail wider for undercounter lighting

[Judson Green]

Guess the question of aesthetics is one that you're going to have to answer.

¾" vs ½" I think you'll find the joinery is a lot easier with ¾" and the price difference negligible. I mostly glued and pocket screwed my face frames on. While dadoing is probably stronger I feel that it invites too much opportunity for error. And ¾" for backs, as Matt mentioned, makes for a easier, cleaner install.

The shelf pins; you may want to try DRILLING a sample, then see what your results are. Might be a little router run out or just other movement that might not be there with a slower RPM drilling. Brad point.

A little caulking around the panel isn't a bad idea.

I've mitered my finish end panels on... Miter your FF style and your FE style. I've always done this with a ¾" ply interior panel already glued/screwed in place. It's really pretty easy.

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And an alternative to finish out the bottom of the uppers a bit and have under cabinet lighting... Here's its cherry with a mostly white painted kitchen, but you could paint to match if you wanted. I kinda like natural finished wood accents. And this is removable should you need to get in there.

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[Chris Padilla]

To snug up panel, lay down several lines of pure silicone on some wax paper. When cured, peel them up and cut them into 1-2" lengths and stuff those into the grooves.

[Jamie Buxton]

Your panel plywood is probably called 1/4" in US stores, but is actually 5.2 mm, which is dominant in the metric world. 5.2 mm is nearly a sixteenth shy of a quarter. However, your router bit is probably set up for a full quarter inch. You can try to shim the plywood in the dado, but it doesn't really work IMHO. There's two better solutions. One is to find real quarter-inch plywood. The other is to get a router bit which is set up for 5.2 mm plywood. Many door profile bits can be converted from 1/4" to 5.2 mm by changing out the slotting cutter. I'm pretty sure Freud will sell you one for $20 or so.

[Jamie Buxton]

I'm seeing prefinished maple for the interiors. That's an expedient choice. But it raises the question of how you're going to edgeband the shelves. You might consider paint. The paint would be the color of the outside of the cabinets, and would be a nice surprise when you open the door.

[Justin Jump]

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Thanks all for looking….

@ Matt – what did you use for primer under that paint? The Cabinet Coat I am contemplating states that it can have several coats, with the first coat being the primer coat, but as stated in my first post, I am not sold on it yet.

@ John – keep me posted about those hinges, and as for the top rail wider for trim, you mean crown right? If I keep my bulkhead which is currently in the kitchen, I won’t have room for crown, just a small piece of shoe molding, I am thinking of getting rid of the bulkhead, but that means moving some plumbing and ductwork, which I am not sure about.

@ Chris and Jamie – I do plan to use space balls for panel fit if needed, but the issue I am having is the thickness. The groove is cut with the Freud Shaker bit (see pic), and I have remove all the shims, and the cutter is still thicker than the plywood. I am using HD ply right now, but I plan on using true maple ¼” from my hardwood supplier for the real cabinets, I am hoping it’s a bit thicker than the HD stuff.

I also plan on using the pre-finished ¾” for shelves, and gluing a prefinished piece for edge banding, but I like the idea of the painted shelf to match the cabinet, I am going to kick this idea around, thanks…

[John A langley]

Justin look in to Maple with an MDF core for your doors it tends to be thicker , don't you spaceball's . They have a chemical and tends to bleed through the paint I use a product called panel buddies PM me and I can put you in touch with the supplier

[Ken Krawford]

Justin, since you're going to be painting these cabinets, have you considered MDF for the panels? It's cheap and comes in true 1/4" sheets.

I have always fastened face frames to cabinet boxes with glue and 1 3/4" nails via nail gun. I then fill the nail holes with a few drops of epoxy and sand. They are invisible when finished and I've never had a problem with face frames moving. I never like the large holes pocket screws left.

I'd definitely vote for 3/4" for the boxes.

By the time you paint the boxes, I'd bet that there will be enough paint in the shelf holes to tighten the fit. I've always used a 1/4" bit for my shelf pins and never had a problem with them being too loose. If anything, I'd have to drill a few out after painting. I've been happy with the Kreg shelf pin jig. I've used a router before but the drill is faster and the results are just as good.

Good luck with your project.

[Matt Meiser]

I put the pocket screws on the outside of the boxes because I put end panels on any visible ends.

For primer, I used SW Wall and Wood Primer.

Definitely do prefinished inside--SO much more enjoyable than spraying inside boxes.

[Joe O'Connor]

For painted doors I've used 1/2 inch mdf with a rabbit cut on the back for a snug fit. I also like the weight the thicker panel gives the door. 1/4 inch panels can feel a bit flimsy. Also for what it's worth 1/4 mdf is 1/4 inch as well as Baltic birch.

[Justin Jump]

@ Matt and Ken - I am defintely using pre finished maple for the boxes. If I stick with 3/4" - I found it locally at a Supplier called Bennet Supply. I cannot buy directly from them, I have to go through a resaler called Allegheny Plywood. I can get the prefinshed, both sides, for $78 a sheet.

I am actually thinking of changing my build approach from a traditional side panel with a cutout for the toe kick, to the use of a base system for the toe kick, so I can get a full six (6) panles out of each full sheet of the 3/4", instead of 4, but still with teh 4, I have drops for the shelves.

@ Joe - I have kicked around the idea of an MDF panel, but I want a true all wood custom cabinets, I don't want any MDF. However, I do have the issue where I feel that the 1/4" ply for the panel makes the door feel to light and flimsy, and I dont like the idea of a raised panel installed backwards.

Why not use 1/2" maple ply like you mdf idea, and rabbit the ply to fit teh groove?

This might be my next mock up, using the 2" rails and stiles that Matt mentions. Plus - hey I get to build something right?

[Matt Meiser]

IMHO there's absolutely no shame in an MDF panel on a shaker door. I used some beautiful cherry veneer, MDF core stuff on my parents cabinetry. Its highly unlikely to be problematic as the edges are well protected.

The box-and-base approach isn't a bad idea. I've done both and it does make for an easier install.

[keith micinski]

I actually don't like the look of a half inch panel rabbited to fit as a door panel from the inside. You get an unfinished looking gap. Also the pro classic is a great paint and very easy to use but I may have been getting a little yellowing from it on my last project on some old trim that was already installed. I am hoping it was from the existing paint and I got lazy and didn't seal the trim first.

[John A langley]

Justin an MDF panel is much better than the plywood panel,it will stay flatter, stuff was developed and made to paint and it takes excellent finish, if you use plywood for your panels painted it's going to show every veneer seam

[John TenEyck]

MDF makes a great painted door panel. If you use 1/2" you can either cut a rabbet on the back side or you can make it a raised panel, again, on the back side. Very Shaker like. I've also used SW's Pro Classic with the same primer Matt cited, and it gives a beautiful, durable, non-yellowing finish. It's thick as snot, though, so you need to thin it and use a large needle to spray it with an HVLP gun. Better to use an airless sprayer.

John

[William C Rogers]

From my experience of just completing my kitchen and laundry room cabinets. I used the Somerfield shaker bits on my cabinets for rails and styles. I really liked their bits and their groove cutter for the rail and stiles is set to 7/32 instead of 1/4. I liked the swapping between rail and stile bits without having to re-set the height. On the laundry cabinets the rail and styles were 2 3/8 and the kitchen were 3" (I think). I liked the wider stiles and rails better. I used 1 1/2 for the face frame. For the laundry I used 1/2 overlay on the doors. The 1/2 overlay caused a problem with pull-out shelves as the open door extends into the cabinet opening which I had to remake the pull outs and shim the slides. I used 1 1/4 overlay for the kitchen and really like it with the wider shaker style doors. I used space balls on the laundry cabinets, but used Somerfield's Panalign strips on the kitchen cabinets. The Panalign strips worked better and less expensive. I used Somerfield's easy bore for the cabinet hinge holes. The jig is around $150, but by the time I bought a quality bit to do it on a drill press I figured it was about $0.50 per hole. The fact every hole came out perfectly and set up time almost nothing it was well worth it. It also drills the holes for the press in hinges which is much easier than using screws. All of the cabinets I built were tongue and groove using Somerfield's tongue and groove method except the face frame was pocket screws. Tongue and groove is better keeping things in place and square. The problem you may run into with just dado is the plywood thickness varies so much getting a tight fit is hard where tongue and groove width is not as important to fit. I used 3/4 inch on the construction of the cabinets. The laundry room cabinets are maple and I used 1/4 maple with a MDF core from Menards for the panels. The kitchen is mahogany with 5.2mm mahogany plywood panels. I used blum hardware as I didn't want to chance getting cheaper and not being satisfied. I used the Rockler shelf pin system and it was fine for the shelf pins. Better than I could do with a router, but still needed to be careful. Overall cost of hardware really wasn't much difference. I was going to wait until everything was installed to post pictures, but to give you an idea of what the overlay and wide stiles look like see the picture. I'll check my rail and stile width today and post if different.
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[George Bokros]

Looks good. I too like the Sommerfeld tongue and groove for cabinet construction.

[Justin Jump]

OK - I think you guys may have sold me on the mdf core stuff, but only if if measures to be a bit thicker than 7/32" and closer to 1/4". I want to get a sung fit between the groove cut by my Freud bit, and the actual panel thickness. The Frued bit is adjustable, this is exactly my issue though, I have it adjusted (took out all of the shims) to it's minimal thickness, and the groove is still too wide for the 1/4". The 1/4' I used is measuring evn less than 7/32", with calipers, I am getting around .210" thick.

@ William - nice work, do you mins sharing your finish schedule? I also looked at and watched the Somerfield videos, that's where I got the 2 7/16" idea for the width of the stiles and rails.

I also kicked around the tongue and groove concept, but I got a pretty square box on mock up, and once setup, I got pretty consistent results, so I may stick with just dado's.

For the Rockler shelf pins, are you using the 1/4" bit? and do their pins fit snug?

THX

[Jamie Buxton]

OK - I think you guys may have sold me on the mdf core stuff, but only if if measures to be a bit thicker than 7/32" and closer to 1/4". .

From my suppliers, quarter inch MDF really is .25". However, MDF-core hardwood-veneered sheet goods are usually .19" -- that 5.2 mm thickness. Go figure.

[John TenEyck]

The 1/4 and 1/2" MDF I buy is withing 0.005" of being at exact nominal, so they should fit very well in whatever panel bit you run. As others have mentioned, you don't want veneer over MDF core for paint grade, you want MDF. If you use veneer the seams and even the grain will show, sooner or later. With MDF the paint will look as good as you can apply it and it will stay that way.

John

[William C Rogers]

Justin
For my kitchen cabinets I did two coats of poly. The first coat was gloss followed by satin. The gloss helps show the wood grain. I used Sherman Williams Classic because I could get it locally. There are other good brands such as Target coating, but I would have needed it shipped. For the kitchen cabinets I used VAR brand stain from Benjamin Moore. 50/50 mixture of dark mahogany and rosewood. I felt this gave me that rich mahogany look. The laundry cabinets are maple and we were going to stain them also, but decided to paint them white. I used Benjamin Moore Impervo paint. If I didn't have a boat load of maple I would use poplar instead of maple because it takes stain much better. Maple, even sealing it with shellac can blotch. I got a great deal on the mahogany and got the mahogany crown off CL for less than $70.
I checked my rail and stile width and I did use 3" for the kitchen and I used 2 7/16 for the laundry room. There is no real set size, it is a matter of what I liked. I even built doors for my last house with 2" rails and 3" stiles. Those were non shaker style. Same thing with overlay distance. I like the 1 1/4 overlay better than 1/2" overlay with shaker style doors. Again this is preference. I can tell you this is a big project. One new tool I did buy was a drum sander. That allowed me to make all my stock to the proper size and I ran my doors through it also. I probably spent about $3000 on new tooling, drum sander, new saw blades, Ceros sander and Abranet sand paper, routerbits, clamps etc. and another $3000 on materials.

good luck

[Dan Rude]

On the bulkhead, I have the same problem. A friend who just did a gut remodel, I think it is number 7 for him and his wife. Suggested that I do some small holes and see how it is made, then maybe take off about half the height and do a wide molding. I would gain the height I could use. and would not have the insulation fall out of the attic. Dan

[Justin Jump]

Having trouble finding 1/4" MDF around here, just to get and idea of cost.

So shoulfd I stay away from 1/4" ply altogether, or just 1/4" veneered plywood? Remember I will most likely be painting these white.....

@ William - thanks for sharing the finishing info, and yes, I am already aware of the costs and size, but I have been building up my tooling over the past year, little by little. I have been scouring CL for a drum sander, no luck in the Pittsburgh area, but I am sure one will crop up before I start. I kicked around Poplar since they are painted, but was persuaded from Poplar to Soft Maple due to hardness issues.

@ Dan - I already looked in the bulkhead, and there is one run of hot and cold water going to a bathroom above, and one duct running heat/air to the same bathroom. I am hoping if I remove the bulkhead, it wil be an easy fix. I will have to take out a section of wall I wasnt planning on demo'ing, but hey, whats one more piece of drywayy right?

[Paul Shaffer]

Justin,
I finished building a whole kitchen full of cabinets last year. I believe there is a thread in the projects section. Mine were natural finished cherry, so I can't help you much on the finishing, but I will offer some insights on other aspects. First, I used the exact same Freud bit set for the doors and it worked amazingly well. Get a true 1/4" panel and you will be very happy with the doors. My rails and stiles were 2 7/16" for the same reason as you, simple math. I think it looks good, but again you have to be the judge of that. I used all Blum hardware and I would absolutely recommend you do the same. It simply works, without any fussing. I had inset doors and drawers and the adjustments made it easy enough for even me to get good, uniform gaps all the way around.

One very important thing that I didn't appreciate until I built some shop and laundry cabinets out of scrap wood I had laying around... Get good wood. Period. Pay the money. I got my cherry freight shipped from Irion Lumber in PA and it was worth every penny. I didn't have one door out of plane because of wood movement. I can't say the same about soft maple and cherry I have gotten from very, very well respected lumber yards around New England. Even taking several steps to get to final thickness over the course of a week to let the wood "relax", I always have a couple pieces that just won't stay flat. In the whole scheme of things, the wood is actually not that big a part of the cost, considering plywood, paint, hardware... So pay the money for the absolute best wood you can find.

Finally, I don't know your shop situation, but I work from my 1 car garage. The best thing I did was outsource the cutting of the carcass parts to a CNC shop near NY and have the parts flat packed (Ikea style) and shipping. Instead of wrestling 11 sheets of 3/4" plywood, I got all the parts custom cut to much more precise standards then I could on my table saw. The construction was blind dados with pilot holes cut for screws. Very strong, went together in a couple minutes for each cabinet. Every hardware hole was pre-drilled, which made hardware installation a breeze. All shelf pin holes precisely drilled, no slop, all exactly level with the others. It wasn't ridiculously more expensive and worth every penny in retrospect. I got to spend my time on the stuff everyone sees, the face frames, doors, drawers, end panels, while someone else did all the hard lifting on the carcasses.

Good luck. I found it very rewarding and would absolutely do it again. Hopefully your experience is the same.

Cheers.

[Ethan Melad]

ill just mention that i just used the Grass soft close hinges on a job and they're only ok. the soft close mechanism works well, but there is a lot of play in the hinge, and this makes them feel a little sloppy.

[Matt Meiser]

I did the opposite. I came up with a good workflow for building boxes pretty darn fast with minimal work. But building and especially sanding dozens of doors becomes tedious so I outsourced those. They showed up ready to finish at a cost not a whole lot higher than materials and consumables would have been. They did dovetailed drawers for me to, which came pre-finished. I still did a number of custom components like a wine bottle rack and such. Start to finish, I did the actual cabinet construction and finishing in something like a month of evenings, lunch times, and weekends But, I had the advantage of a large workspace, dedicated finishing area, and we kicked the cars out of the garage and I was able to use the lawn and garden equipment storage space in the back of the shop as a warehouse. That said, I know a couple guys who did their whole kitchens from scratch in basement shops.

One way to get more temporary storage is to rent a POD or similar--we've got one here called Mobile Attic that uses a lot nicer containers. We did that when I did my parents' kitchen. I used it for storing materials and finished components. Then we packed the finished cabinets in it and the company set it right outside their kitchen door. We're using at least one for moving (might hire movers for the big stuff) and it is running us $75 for each container move plus $119/mo.

[Justin Jump]

@ Paul - thanks for the info on Irion Lumber, never heard of them,and they are only about an hour away from my camp in the Allegheny National Forest, I will defintely look them up.

And yes - I have budgeted for all Blum soft close hardware.

Luckily, if you look at mythread below on my workshop, I added an ddition that gave me a new 2 car garage, workshop on top. The exisiting house has a smaller one car garage, that is basically storage, and will be used for storage once the boxes and cabinets are assembled.

Being in a production enviroment, and having a 5S background, I think I got a pretty good setup for material delivery, breaking down the 3/4" plywood into manageable pieces, and final sizing and storage. I setup some shop space for breadrack, wire racks from Target on wheels, that will give me plenty of storage.....I think!!!

@ Matt - The wife already knows she is on the hook for sanding!!



http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?193353-Finally-I-think-I-am-ready-to-build-something&highlight=

[Justin Jump]

Matt - the SW Wall and Wood primer.....

That's a latex. You used the latex under the acrylic? Any issues?

[Matt Meiser]

That's what they recommended and it worked well. Seems to be plenty durable.

Irion is awesome. I used them for cherry for a table and got all the WIDE material for the top from a single tree, all RED. Plus some huge 16/4 timbers for the base.

[Aaron Berk]

1/4" door panels are a horrible idea. They sound cheap when they close, and you'll be closing them allot.