Shop made tools forum - thoughts about moving the related threads from here?

[allen long]

At my request, Keith Outten graciously created a shop made tools forum. My thought was it would be nice to have a place put all our shop made tools to make them easier to find for inspiration and instruction for building new tools. I love looking at what everyone posts here and moving the tool making related tool threads would make it easier to find these truly special gems. More than once I've been inspired to get of my keester and make something. I will be looking to your the posts on panel gauges when I am ready to make my own.

I realize, though we have or own community here in the Neander forum and would not want to do anything to hurt the dynamic.

What does everyone think about moving the existing applicable threads to the shop made tools forum? Should we create a poll? Should we get permission from individuals prior to moving their threads? Our just leave everything as-is?

Let's have a lot of folks chime in here. I would like to be able to have links from one forum to the other but I am moot sure that is even an option. I know that duplicating threads is generally not allowed.

Many king regards . . . Allen

[Matthew N. Masail]

I like the idea, it would be nice to have an 'world' of shop made tools, I don't think it would hurt the dynamics of this one, because a designated place for it means it's more likely that people will actually post the stuff they make.
I don't know if threads should be moved, that would be a awful lot of work, maybe just to move a select few like that guy who made a spokeshave out of sheets of mild steel, and let the rest build over time.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I just took a look at it, and it seems the power tool guys are all over it lol it might just be a bridge place where both world meet. however, if it gets full of 1000's of shop made Jigs for that power tool and that operation it would stop being so much fun, for me at least.


I suggest maybe having 2 new forums, in order to keep the forum relevant to it's audience.
'Shop made Hand tools' and 'Shop made power tools and Jigs'
that way the hand tool one will be full of the good stuff! :rolleyes:

[Steve Voigt]

I do not like it at all. The more you break up the content into sub-forums, the fewer people are likely to see it. You create a bunch of little ghettos that are impoverished because they don't interact with the other "micro" forums.
If I want to post a plane or saw, where shall I do it now? Here, in "projects," or in "shopmade tools"? If I want to see things others have made, do I have to remember to check all three forums now?

"I realize, though we have or own community here in the Neander forum and would not want to do anything to hurt the dynamic."

In my opinion, you already have hurt the dynamic. I don't understand how a whole new forum gets created at the request of one person, instead of being discussed by the broader community first. And I don't understand how someone who posts here quite infrequently gets to make a decision that has such an impact.

[Steve Voigt]

I suggest maybe having 2 new forums, in order to keep the forum relevant to it's audience.
'Shop made Hand tools' and 'Shop made power tools and Jigs'
that way the hand tool one will be full of the good stuff! :rolleyes:

This is clear proof of my comments about about ghettoizing the forums. Now we're going to have TWO new forums?

I vote for ZERO new forums.

[David Weaver]

I don't want any of my shop made tools floated to a shop made forum. The discussion that has ensued with mine is specifically related to hand tools and would be esoteric to say the least for anyone but an ardent hand tooler.

It's not as if we have too much traffic lately and shop made tools are flooding the forum or anything.

[Robert McNaull]

I am not the author of any such threads, but as a constant learner, I wish they could be linked into a list somewhere. I don't think they need to be moved, if there was just a quick way of finding the entries, especially those that are a complete "how to" guide of how to build a jig or tool. For example, David Weaver's how to on making drawer groove planes. Wish there was a better organization for finding those threads later without bookmarking or searching. My 2 cents.

[Jim Koepke]

It is not often that my wondering take me out of the Neanderthal Haven forum.

It didn't occur to me there was a problem with too many people posting their tool creations here.

Most of the old posts can be found with use of the search function. In the past the really creative ones would get posted in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs for easy finding.

How did you convince Keith that everyone thought this was a good idea without even asking?

Will people get in trouble for posting a tool build thread here? Will they be moved to the "new appropriate" forum?

jtk

[Richard Line]

My preference would be to keep the hand tool build threads here. They very often relate to how to use a tool, and that is a prime reason I hang out on the Neanderthal Haven.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't think they need to be moved, if there was just a quick way of finding the entries

At one time that was one purpose of the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs.

I think only one moderator was keeping track of that and from what I have been told he has been too busy with other obligations to keep current on creating new links.

Awhile ago the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs was moved into a new Neanderthal Haven Announcements sub forum. I guess we were getting too many stickies at the top of the old conference.

jtk

[Moses Yoder]

I average about 20 minutes a day in Neanderthal Haven probably. It is time I really enjoy. I don't see any sense in removing some of the best threads from Neanderthal and moving it to some other forum. Most of the discussions here are about some form of shop made tool, like the toothing plane build that is currently active. Building and using your own tools is the highest form of woodworking in my opinion, and something I have really enjoyed in the Neanderthal forum. I would hate to see that taken away.

[Jim Matthews]

The appeal of handtools (for me) is less reliance on jigs and making tools,
more on using the tools directly to the work piece.

I've seen shops with hundreds of router table profiles, for example.

There's insufficient space in my shop to work that way.

[Shawn Pixley]

My preference would to leave the Neanderthal portion as is. I confess I do occasionally read forums to the north and I unappologetically use power tools as the situation warrants. The types of builds in the Neanderthal forum seem fundamentally different (as does the metal working and musical instrument forums). To me the ability to parse various threads through the search function seem adequate without another sub-aggregation. Putting them all in a single forum seem like the "better would be the enemy of the good."

[Judson Green]

Not sure what the "Tips and Tricks" sticky it supposed to be in the general forum, but perhaps the reason for wanting this new "Shop made tools" forum is because of a lack of a general forum sticky like are own "Neanderthal wisdom sticky".

Guess I like it the way it is, but perhaps "Jigs, Fixtures and Shopmade tools" sticky in the general forum would be a good idea.

[allen long]

You have an excellent point Steve - especially about a single person getting something started without a consensus. I am sorry I did not consult the whole the group BEFORE I made the suggestion to have a tool forum. Had I been sensitive enough to think there would be such a strong reaction from even a single person, I would not have made the suggestion in the first place. It was never my intention to cause discord. (My original intention was actually for a forum about making hand tools.) So you can say I messed up on all fronts!

It is unfortunate there is often a misconception that passion for the forum must be based solely on chiming in on every subject multiple times -- that listening / following the wisdom of so many in the forum on a frequent basis is not considered having passion for the group. There are many in the world following the forum who are too timid to post or who can be intimidated by either the awesome talent of many in the group, or occasionally the tone. Of course I have been called many things, but timid is not one of them. The most hurtful being called an "infrequent poster" In this case, it is the truth hurts and I will never be able to post sufficiently to be one of the cool kids! ;)

Again my most sincere apologies about obviously having overstepped, and especially if I have hurt anyone's feelings or caused damage to the group.

My suggestion, for what little it is worth, is to continue to post hand tools we have created in the Neander forum, and abandon the new forum to the power tool folks.

Many kind regards. . . Allen





I do not like it at all. The more you break up the content into sub-forums, the fewer people are likely to see it. You create a bunch of little ghettos that are impoverished because they don't interact with the other "micro" forums.
If I want to post a plane or saw, where shall I do it now? Here, in "projects," or in "shopmade tools"? If I want to see things others have made, do I have to remember to check all three forums now?

"I realize, though we have or own community here in the Neander forum and would not want to do anything to hurt the dynamic."

In my opinion, you already have hurt the dynamic. I don't understand how a whole new forum gets created at the request of one person, instead of being discussed by the broader community first. And I don't understand how someone who posts here quite infrequently gets to make a decision that has such an impact.

[Adrian Ponik]

If I'm understanding the discussion correctly, it sounds like the genesis of the home made tools subforum was a desire to more easily find topics dedicated to home made tools.

Assuming this is true, I feel like this is a perfect instance where tags could be used. The forum has the ability to search by tags (if you click on advanced search), and I wonder if we could achieve the findability (yeah, not a real word, but it gets the point across) of having a subforum for those who desired it but still retain the actual topic in the forum where they best fit (ie handtools here in Neander, jigs in the General forum, etc.). Obviously this would depend upon the initial thread poster selecting a tag, but I think this would achieve what everybody wants (hopefully)

EDIT - I just realized that it doesn't have to be the initial poster who adds tags, anybody can add up to 2. So, this kind of negates one of the negatives I mentioned above.

[Cody Kemble]

It is unfortunate there is often a misconception that passion for the forum must be based solely on chiming in on every subject multiple times -- that listening / following the wisdom of so many in the forum on a frequent basis is not considered having passion for the group. There are many in the world following the forum who are too timid to post or who can be intimidated by either the awesome talent of many in the group, or occasionally the tone. Of course I have been called many things, but timid is not one of them. The most hurtful being called an "infrequent poster" In this case, it is the truth hurts and I will never be able to post sufficiently to be one of the cool kids! ;)


I couldn't agree more. I spend close to an hour a day during the week on the forum, but don't post very often. I Have learned so much. I guess I just need to speak up more.

[bridger berdel]

the only way I can see that making sense isnt AFAIK supported in the forum software. that would be to allow a thread to display in more than one forum. that way someone who just wanted to read about homemade tools and jigs could go to that forum and read both the hand and power tool homebrew threads and nothing else, and the power tool homebrew threads would also show up in their respective fora, the hand tool homebrew threads would also show up here, etc.

[Jim Koepke]

It is unfortunate there is often a misconception that passion for the forum must be based solely on chiming in on every subject multiple times -- that listening / following the wisdom of so many in the forum on a frequent basis is not considered having passion for the group. There are many in the world following the forum who are too timid to post or who can be intimidated by either the awesome talent of many in the group, or occasionally the tone. Of course I have been called many things, but timid is not one of them. The most hurtful being called an "infrequent poster" In this case, it is the truth hurts and I will never be able to post sufficiently to be one of the cool kids!

I do not think the "infrequent poster" was intended to be name calling.

It was someone wondering how a new forum came at the request of one person.

As one person who has suggested a few new things I know how it can happen.

There is overlap with some of the forums. For now I think we can keep our neander tool builds here and let the power tool folks show of their shop made stuff.

Maybe a sojourn over there every once in awhile might give me ideas for things to adapt for hand tool use.

jtk

[Steve Voigt]

It is unfortunate there is often a misconception that passion for the forum must be based solely on chiming in on every subject multiple times -- that listening / following the wisdom of so many in the forum on a frequent basis is not considered having passion for the group.

I don't know who has that misconception. I definitely don't think frequent posting correlates with passion, knowledge, experience, or anything else useful.

But anyway, you seem to have acknowledged my main point, and I appreciate that.

[Sean Hughto]

Frequent posting hopefully correlates with adding to the content available for consumption here. If I were Allen, I might be sensitive about being seen as a person who contributes little content, but wants to steer how content is sorted here. It's an interesting question really: Do content generators have more ownership of the forum than the lurkers who far outnumber them and contribute only their attention to the content? If I was a lurker, I would probably be in favor of whatever made the content generators the most happy and inspired the highest volume of high quality entries for my consumption.

[steven c newman]

Just posted a shop built Skewed Rebate plane over there. Kind of testing the waters? Maybe we should post one now and then, just to keep things even with the Darkside?

[allen long]

Sean I am not sure how much more contrite I could be. My whole intent was based not on steering content, but rather having been so impressed and excited about the tools I have seen made here I wanted them showcased in a a place that would give them them the prominence they deserve. Talk about a rough crowd that immediately assumes the worst in a person.

Many regards . . . Allen

[Derek Cohen]

For what it is worth, the idea of a Shop Made Hand Tool forum is a nice idea. Sometimes we get stuck in our ways and need a jog to broaden our mental vista. It is not a forum that appeals to me on SMC, however, because I think that we have a nice mix here of building and using handtools on this forum. There is a good amount of theory and practical information, some days more of one than another, but overall most topics gets a decent airing.

I can see, instead, a section to post shop made tools as a resource section. Then we would definitely need to separate it into power- and hand tools as so much about using power tools requires a jig, and the hand tools would get lost in a forum where powertool jigs dominate.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Lornie McCullough]

I was very excited to see the new forum for Shop Made Tools and Machines. I am very interested in making tools or machines that will enhance my workshop experience.

Allen.... I hope you don't let the wet blankets chill your enthusiasm.... I think it is a great idea!

Lornie

[Zach Dillinger]

I do not like the idea of a separate forum. Personally, I'd rather see the new forum go away.

[Joe Bailey]

This is a solution in search of a problem.

[David Weaver]

I hope the shop made tools forum fills up with stuff that makes work for power toolers easier.

I also hope that all of the shop made hand tool stuff stays in this forum so that we can discuss the aspects of how mortises, abutments, mouths, etc are cut and how they impact the performance of a good working plane - which is something FAR beyond what most power toolers will be able to tolerate or contribute to. It would be like me (who views power tools as coarse work items) trying to go up and tell someone what to do with a multirouter. I have no idea. I think they're interesting machines, but that forum doesn't need me saying "that's great" or "really neat" pat on the back type posts on stuff I don't know much about.

If I make a mediocre tool, or even if I get lucky and make a good one, I would like the discussion to center around that tool and the very fine details about it - the things that actually make it worth making - and discuss and field questions and pose questions to others that are very on point.

It's fine with me if other people want to put their tool making threads in such a forum, but it should be up to the discretion of the original poster about where their thread ends up. If an OP later wants a thread moved to the tool making forum, they can request to have that done. The moderators shouldn't be making that decision for us.

[Matthew N. Masail]

For what it is worth, the idea of a Shop Made Hand Tool forum is a nice idea. Sometimes we get stuck in our ways and need a jog to broaden our mental vista. It is not a forum that appeals to me on SMC, however, because I think that we have a nice mix here of building and using handtools on this forum. There is a good amount of theory and practical information, some days more of one than another, but overall most topics gets a decent airing.

I can see, instead, a section to post shop made tools as a resource section. Then we would definitely need to separate it into power- and hand tools as so much about using power tools requires a jig, and the hand tools would get lost in a forum where powertool jigs dominate.

Regards from Perth

Derek



That is how I was looking at it, being the only one not totally against the idea:o sometimes one is just looking for insperation and a shop made tool area is just the place for that. with that said I would be quite upset if it effected this forum negetivly in any way.

[Sean Hughto]

I think you are reading something into my post that isn't there. I am making no judgment one way or the other. And was responding to Steve.

[Daniel Rode]

I really like the Neanderthal forum as it is. The mix of hand tool woodworking projects, tool making and restoration as well as the related subjects like sharpening all fit together well. Being new and lacking much experience, I mostly read and ask questions. I don't really make tools per se but I have a few simple hand tools I'd like to try top make some day. Simple planes, marking tools, etc.

That said, I am a hybrid woodworker with interest in jigs, accessories and such for both hand tool and power tool work. So the new forum might be interesting to me. In fact, I might be better able to contribute content rather than only consume.

FWIW - I don't really spend time in other SMC forums at present. For what ever reason, the topics in the general woodworking forum don't often interest me. Maybe I'll just ignore the new forum too :)

If I had my choice I'd like to see a hybrid woodworking forum. At the higher end, the work I admire and aspire to, I think this is the norm rather than the exception. I'm not sure how that might overlap the Neanderthal forum.

[Keith Outten]

I decide when a new Forum is to be created or removed. I listen to Members of our Community when they offer recommendations or suggestions, whether it is one person or hundreds. Our Moderators often discuss proposed changes before I make the final decision.

I spent a few weeks considering the suggestion to create a new Shop Made Tools, Fixtures and jigs Forum. Honestly it made perfect sense and the decision was made to create the new Forum in a section that everyone could share. This particular topic can easily be buried in the more active Forums. In a few years the new Forum should become a real asset for every group here.

The decision to move threads on this topic to the new Forum is up to the Forum Moderator, I rarely override a Moderators decision.
.

[David Weaver]

I have to imagine the forum moderator in this forum will remember the reaction here, and hopefully proceed accordingly. I understand the value of a list/forum of shop tools, etc, especially in the forums that have a lot higher traffic and tend to be a little less esoteric than this section, though.

it's not my forum and thus not my rules, but if a toolmaking thread of mine gets moved to a generalized list of shop tools, I won't make the mistake of investing the time to do it again after that.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I decide when a new Forum is to be created or removed. I listen to Members of our Community when they offer recommendations or suggestions, whether it is one person or hundreds. Our Moderators often discuss proposed changes before I make the final decision.

I spent a few weeks considering the suggestion to create a new Shop Made Tools, Fixtures and jigs Forum. Honestly it made perfect sense and the decision was made to create the new Forum in a section that everyone could share. This particular topic can easily be buried in the more active Forums. In a few years the new Forum should become a real asset for every group here.

The decision to move threads on this topic to the new Forum is up to the Forum Moderator, I rarely override a Moderators decision.
.

I agree it can become an asset. but I think it shuld be considered that shop made hand tools and power tool jig are a world apart, and not many will go through 100 special power tool jig threads to find a hand tool one. I'd like to suggest that hand tools and power tool be separated, to keep the forums relevant and easier to navigate.

I feel the same as David above about having a shop hand tool thread of mine (and many are planed) being placed in a list of random shop jig.

[Pat Barry]

I hope the shop made tools forum fills up with stuff that makes work for power toolers easier.

I also hope that all of the shop made hand tool stuff stays in this forum so that we can discuss the aspects of how mortises, abutments, mouths, etc are cut and how they impact the performance of a good working plane - which is something FAR beyond what most power toolers will be able to tolerate or contribute to. It would be like me (who views power tools as coarse work items) trying to go up and tell someone what to do with a multirouter. I have no idea. I think they're interesting machines, but that forum doesn't need me saying "that's great" or "really neat" pat on the back type posts on stuff I don't know much about.

If I make a mediocre tool, or even if I get lucky and make a good one, I would like the discussion to center around that tool and the very fine details about it - the things that actually make it worth making - and discuss and field questions and pose questions to others that are very on point.

I don't see how the same sort of discussions that Dave alludes to can't or won't happen if the tool was posted in the new forum as opposed to the Neander one, unless its just because the Neanders themselves will boycott the new forum. Ie: no need to look outside OUR forum to find things of interest to US. I for one would appreciate having the tools listed in a separate forum. I guess I tend to look at lots of different forum's here - I don't just confine my visits or comments to just the Neander forum. I thought this was a woodworking site and I hope to get good ideas and knowledge from power tool users, wood carvers, guitar makers and hand tool users as well. Others may be more narrow in the interests.

[Jim Koepke]

If I had my choice I'd like to see a hybrid woodworking forum.

In reality that is what we have right here. Sure there are some hand tool purist. On the other hand there are a lot of people here who use a bandsaw, table saw or other power tools to do some of their work.

An often asked question is what plane should be used to remove a particular power tool's marks.

Heck, my lathe is often used to make what are basically dowels.

If needed for shaping work my miniscule belt sander is put to work.

My feeling is Neanderthal Haven is a very special place and isn't currently in need of a tectonic shift.

With a new forum only for tool and fixture making, all the old threads would eventually disappear under multiple new pages becoming just as difficult to find.

My thought on doing this would be to start a thread like those listed in Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs with links to old tool making threads. It might be best if there were separate categories for fixtures, planes, saws, boring tools and such.

It would be a bit of work to go back to the beginning of (SMC) time to do all of this but it isn't impossible. It would require the help of a moderator to place a link in the tool making section already in Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs.

It would also require some coordination to avoid repeats and keep some semblance of usefulness.

Not sure if it would take a committee or if anyone would even want to volunteer for such an endeavor.

For now, the search function and personal tagging or cataloging of posts has been working for me.

jtk

[ray hampton]

what wrong with a poll asking for a vote about the home-made tools

[David Weaver]

I don't see how the same sort of discussions that Dave alludes to can't or won't happen if the tool was posted in the new forum as opposed to the Neander one,

If people have fairly limited time and don't wish to sort through material with M&T jigs, table saw sleds, stuff for sign making etc, how many other folks in those forums do you think will have enlightening discussion about the design elements on a coffin smoother, including things like the angle of the wear, the meeting of the wear, escapements and abutments, etc, to foster good feeding. It takes a certain amount of experience to even get to that point, not just theoretical forum reading.

There are certain things that may have wider appeal, like drawer grooving planes, but as the poster of the thread who spends the considerable time making content and taking time to make it something other people can use, I'd like to be able to determine where I'd put it to shape discussion (and it does take considerable time to stop and take pictures while you're working on something, and then come back here to a system that is not very user friendly to upload pictures two at a time and then go back and add commentary - it could be a cost of two hours when all is said and done for all of the pictures and adding commentary).

At this point in my hobby, I have already gone from the broad interest to the narrow, and as you say, I am one of the people with "more narrow interests". It's not specifically like I'd boycott any forums, that's an active avoidance. It would be more of a passive avoidance for me.

[Judson Green]

Curiously, I do not see the same discussion (adding a forum) happening in the general forum.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't see how the same sort of discussions that Dave alludes to can't or won't happen if the tool was posted in the new forum as opposed to the Neander one, unless its just because the Neanders themselves will boycott the new forum.

Most days the Neanderthal Haven forum is the only one I visit. Usually the only other one I visit is the Off Topic forum.

Most likely I would miss something of interest if it was posted in some other forum.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Yeah, as of this post, they literally do have 6 times as many people viewing the forum, and the recent ratio of posts there vs. here is probably at least that (this forum is a little slower than it was a couple of years ago, thus my initial comment about removing even more content not being necessarily a great thing for this sub-area of the creek).

[Jim Koepke]

what wrong with a poll asking for a vote about the home-made tools

Absolutely nothing.

The biggest problem is setting it up. The next problem would be making sure all the options are covered and the moderators and administrators would be willing to go along with outcome.

jtk

[Dave Anderson NH]

I am just now reading this thread for the first time. I have not even checked in to SMC since last Wednesday and let other moderators keep an eye on you folks. I was away at the SAPFM mid-year conference and with no apologies say I thoroughly enjoyed myself and didn't think of SM even once. I am going to finish reading all of the other threads from the last few days and then I will start thinking about this new shop made tools idea. So in the appropriate or inappropriate (depending on your viewpoint) standard method of managers and bureaucrats everywhere I will reserve judgment until "later."

[Daniel Rode]

In my experience, this forum is unique. The information here is exceptional and the folks who post the content are often pretty special and rare themselves. The community here is filled with highly skilled craftsman who are willing to discuss, in detail, woodcraft and all associated with it.

I've learned so much in in a few months here that I struggle to find the time to practice it all.

My feeling is Neanderthal Haven is a very special place and isn't currently in need of a tectonic shift.

[Judson Green]

Suppose it (this thread) might be more likely to get in the hottest threads if the discussion happens here though.

I, for one (though I'm sure others too) greatly appreciate your content.

[steven c newman]

Right now, I have the ONLY hand tool project over there. Outnumbered 6 to 1. Maybe a little help,people? I know some of have a hand made tool project available, why not come over and join me? maybe we can even the score a bit?

[Andrew Bell]

I like others who have chimed in is someone who reads most new posts in the neander forum daily, I rarely contribute because what I have to say is either not backed by experience or what I would add has already been said. I have tried reading the other fora (forums) regularly and they don't interest me, are about expensive machines that are not even for sale in my country and not what I'm looking for anyway. Subscribing / keeping abreast of multiple places at once is not the easiest with this forum software so keeping the current mix in one place is what I would prefer.

I understand the desire for many to goto posts that have useful and relevant content, buying, using and making tools is often the topic of discussion. This is for good reason as these are most of the things people do with their hand tools (make, buy, maintain and use them) as well as projects to make, although there are less builds than I'd prefer. Over the last year I have read through most of the historical discussions that were interesting to me that have been discussed over the life of the neanderthal forum, there is lots of quality content and lots of threads that are not helpful going past the original conversation.

I vote that we keep things working the way that they are but come up with a collective better way to categorize and inform members about finding what they are looking for. The FAQ and stickies maybe the way, as may tags or even if we could organise a wiki. Things like David's grooving plane or the tempering steel thread should not be lost amongst the host of similarly titled threads with less than useful information.

[David Dalzell]

I agree. I would like to have a Neander homemade tool forum. There are many more power tool guys than Neanders, so it wouldn't be much fun wading through power tool threads while looking for hand tool threads.

[Shawn Pixley]

I like others who have chimed in is someone who reads most new posts in the neander forum daily, I rarely contribute because what I have to say is either not backed by experience or what I would add has already been said. I have tried reading the other fora (forums) regularly and they don't interest me, are about expensive machines that are not even for sale in my country and not what I'm looking for anyway. Subscribing / keeping abreast of multiple places at once is not the easiest with this forum software so keeping the current mix in one place is what I would prefer.

I understand the desire for many to goto posts that have useful and relevant content, buying, using and making tools is often the topic of discussion. This is for good reason as these are most of the things people do with their hand tools (make, buy, maintain and use them) as well as projects to make, although there are less builds than I'd prefer. Over the last year I have read through most of the historical discussions that were interesting to me that have been discussed over the life of the neanderthal forum, there is lots of quality content and lots of threads that are not helpful going past the original conversation.

I vote that we keep things working the way that they are but come up with a collective better way to categorize and inform members about finding what they are looking for. The FAQ and stickies maybe the way, as may tags or even if we could organise a wiki. Things like David's grooving plane or the tempering steel thread should not be lost amongst the host of similarly titled threads with less than useful information.

I think I am fully aligned with you here. I personally care little viewing another router table. There's nothing wrong with them, just not my thing. We already have a large number of forums. Creating more just extends the ambiguity on where to post certain types of threads. Consider a project made by purely hand tool methods both metal and wood where a tool was made to complete the project. Do I post here in the Neander forum, in the metal working forum, general woodworking, completed projects, finishing forum, or the potential new hand tool making forum? At a certain point, interest gets diluted through too many over specific forums.

I like it the way it stands. If we were going to augment anything, creating a lexicon of key terms to make searching easier would be my suggestion. I am certaintly not dilligent about a naming conventions nor key tags. (On retrospect, this seems very unlike me related to the precision needed in my work. Perhaps I am a bit hypocritical here)

[Frederick Skelly]

In my experience, this forum is unique. The information here is exceptional and the folks who post the content are often pretty special and rare themselves. The community here is filled with highly skilled craftsman who are willing to discuss, in detail, woodcraft and all associated with it.

I've learned so much in in a few months here that I struggle to find the time to practice it all.

Well spoken Dan. +1 on all points. Thank you.
Fred

[steven c newman]

Well, just to enlighten those power tool peoples out there. I post a second Project. Remember a saw bench build? It does have something for both "camps" Electric saws and drills for them, chisels, planes , and saws for our kind. We'll see how it goes. Might do another such project write up, later...

[Kees Heiden]

Personally I feel that removing the toolmaking threads from the Neanderforum, would be a serious amputation. And they certainly shouldn't be mixed in with the powertool ones. We are far in the minority, and that would be a "race" we can't win.

Using, restoring and making handtools are closely related to each other. You shouldn't remove one item from the mix.

[Daniel Rode]

We live in modern times with (potentially) amazing technology to solve problems like this.

I'm not a vBulletin expert but should there not be a way to tag a thread so it would appear in both? The idea being that hand tool making threads would remain in the Neander forum but would simultaneously exist in the Shop Made Tool Forum. Perhaps this is something the OP could do or something available to moderators if a thread seems like it would be valuable to share.

Relocating content from the Neander forum and discouraging content creators seems like a bad idea to me. Sharing that same same content seems like a win for everyone.

[steven c newman]

There are some out there that use a "mix" of styles. Not 100% power tool, nor 100% Galootist. Most I think fall somewhere in the mid-range. To say that All Hand tool items remain in a hand tool only place, and not be shared to all, smacks of "Elitest Snobbery"

Maybe IF we show off a bit towards the "Masses", maybe some will become converts to the Galoot side? I may post a couple more projects over at that forum, just to spark an interest. Others here can remain inside their Ivory Towers, safe from any contamination by the Power Tool Vermin......8-p.......;-)) (tongue FIRMLY in cheek)

[David Weaver]

It's not snobbery. It has to do with keeping the discussion focused and not diluting it. Most of the people from the power tool forums have nothing to teach me about plane design, and I have nothing to teach them about making a table saw jig or T-tracked this-or-that for a router table.

I don't have anything compelling to show to a dedicated random orbital sander, and no interest in trying to persuade such a person to finish work with a plane, let alone dimension it. It's their right to come here and read whatever they want and develop their own interest.

I'm going to start one more thread, probably tomorrow or so - to build a coffin smoother properly out of cocobolo (a little more properly than the last). It will be in this forum, precise in detail, and putting it here is a calculated decision and it will take me a lot of extra time vs. just making the plane and keeping it to myself. I hope that anyone who has the same questions I had gains from it. I have zero interest in the discussion going any other direction - I'd rather it involve three ardent fanatics of plane design than 60 people who would rather use a boring bevel up plane.

In my opinion, if it is helpful, as it appears the drawer grooving plane thread was, I'd rather see a post in the neanderthal wisdom thread than a post condemned to be lost among tablesaw tenoning jigs and shop made dust attachments.

[Daniel Rode]

I think the concern is more about quality hand tool conversations being moved out of the Neanderthal forum. The result would be a reduction in our already thin content. Many of the members here have a narrow focused interest on things related to hand tools. Hand tool making is, IMO, an important part of that discussion.

I think David made the point that he may not want to commit the time and effort to post a how-to if it's just going to be lost in a glut of router tables and crosscut sleds. We all lose in that case.

I'm not necessarily looking to convert power tools users (of which I am one) to hand tools. If they have an interest, the Neanderthal forum is easy to find :)



There are some out there that use a "mix" of styles. Not 100% power tool, nor 100% Galootist. Most I think fall somewhere in the mid-range. To say that All Hand tool items remain in a hand tool only place, and not be shared to all, smacks of "Elitest Snobbery"

Maybe IF we show off a bit towards the "Masses", maybe some will become converts to the Galoot side? I may post a couple more projects over at that forum, just to spark an interest. Others here can remain inside their Ivory Towers, safe from any contamination by the Power Tool Vermin......8-p.......;-)) (tongue FIRMLY in cheek)

[Zach Dillinger]

Well said Dan. Your paraphrasing of David Weaver's concerns echos my concerns exactly. I don't give a lark about converting people to all hand tools. It isn't "Elitist Snobbery", it is a recognition of one's interests and a limited amount of time. I will not waste my limited time paging through posts about things which have absolutely no relevance to me or my work.

The first rule of writing is to know your audience. We know our audience, and they predominately reside in the Neanderthal forum.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm, interesting. "I won't post there, they are NOT one of us.."

So, IF one should post a PIP of...say a small table that is 50-50 handtool/power tool build, WHERE does to "Elite" say to post this291416after all it used hand planes, chiseled mortises, hand and power saws, a lathe, a scrollsaw, several kinds of drills. In short, about half& half.

Of course, IF it takes too much out of one's "very Limited time of shop work" to post both here and there, fine. I happen to like a wee bit of variety in what I do..


A scene from the Sharpe's Rifles program:

Major Hogan is describing the newly raised up Lt. Sharpe and his troubles fitting in at the Officer's Mess to Sir Arthur

" you know the problem....Not one of US"

LOLOLOLOL

[David Weaver]

Steven, I have no idea what a PIP is and I'm not interested in reconciling the differences between your opinion and mine or anyone else's. There is, however, no reason to be divisive by slinging terms around or applying labels to people.

[Zach Dillinger]

I think certain people are making mountains out of molehills and fail to recognize a basic fact of our existence here: there are different forums for a reason. If I posted about chopping mortises by hand in the Power Tool forum, I probably wouldn't have much interest. If somebody posted some table saw thing here, it probably wouldn't get much interest. Ultimately, all of our concerns mean nothing as this forum belongs to one man. and that is fine. But, certain people should stop reading intent to divide when there is no such intent.

I suspect that most of the hybrid guys inhabit both the power tool forum and the hand tool forum because both are relevant to their work. If you use hand tools for one tiny process in your project, I for one still want to see your work in the Neanderthal forum. My way of doing something is unlikely to be exactly the same as yours and that is simply outstanding. We can learn from each other as long as we are speaking the same language.

I doubt the power tool only guys come here and I'd be surprised if the hand tool only guys go there. It isn't elitism. One way of work isn't better than any other. Frankly, I'm supremely annoyed that we even have to have this discussion for the seven millionth time.

The point is (others have probably said it better than I am about to): those of us who have no interest in power tool stuff (again, no judgment outside of a recognition that it doesn't interest me) will not read through a forum with a 6-to-1 against balance of relevant posts. I don't understand why this solution in search of a problem exists. This forum works just fine as is. But, as I said, the ultimate decision isn't in our hands.

But I suspect those "mountain out of mole hill" people won't let this go. I wish you all the best in your search for craftsmanship, however you define that.

[David Weaver]

Frankly, I'm supremely annoyed that we even have to have this discussion for the seven millionth time.


Ditto. I have the same indifference toward power tools, except I do use them from time to time. I have *zero* interest in getting on here and talking about them or fiddling with them beyond how they work out of the box, though - absolutely zero.

[steven c newman]

Hmm, PIP? That would be a Project In Progress? Maybe a way of showing a stage near completion of a Project? Or, Maybe a Project In Photos?


I have been doing my projects my way since the late 70s. Don't see a need to change much. I went from a large Pole barn shop with all kinds of power tools handy to a small, crowded Basement Shop I call the Dungeon. Gone are most of the big power tools, tain't any room for them. Need a long rip? 2 C clamps to hold a piece of 1x2 to the bottom of my OLD ALL METAL SEARS circular saw, and have at it. Do I miss that huge tablesaw? Nope.

If you want to keep all your fine work here, fine. No need to bother the rest of the people here that might not see what hard work you put in on a project. They just wouldn't understand, would they? Have fun, Sir...

[Zach Dillinger]

Ditto. I have the same indifference toward power tools, except I do use them from time to time. I have *zero* interest in getting on here and talking about them or fiddling with them beyond how they work out of the box, though - absolutely zero.

And that is perfectly understandable. To be honest, I have the same indifference to many hand tool threads. But I at least have a chance of learning something relevant to me there, unlike the router table plan / table saw jig / planer knife setting stuff we will be forced to wade through. Again, this isn't judgmental or "elitist", just a recognition of one man's interests.

[Zach Dillinger]

If you want to keep all your fine work here, fine. No need to bother the rest of the people here that might not see what hard work you put in on a project. They just wouldn't understand, would they? Have fun, Sir...

It was my understanding that we are talking only about shop made tools and tooling. I don't have a problem posting my furniture work anywhere I'm directed to post them. Furniture is furniture no matter how it is made.

And with that, I will extricate myself from this thread. We all seem to be talking past each other at this point and showcasing our particular prejudices, complexes, and beliefs. The owner of the site and mods will do what they will do (and they have every right to do so). Each individual will either adapt or move on as they see fit. No point in continuing the assault on this particular deceased equine...

[Steve Voigt]

If you want to keep all your fine work here, fine. No need to bother the rest of the people here that might not see what hard work you put in on a project. They just wouldn't understand, would they? Have fun, Sir...

If you want to post your projects on the new forum, no one is stopping you. In fact, no one here is trying to discourage anyone from using the new forum. The vast majority of posts here are simply expressing a preference for not having their old posts moved, and for having the right to continue posting tool builds right here. What you're doing however, is trying to browbeat people into using the new forum, and understandably people don't care for that. The phrase "live and let live" comes to mind. You've made your point; I think we get it.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm not a vBulletin expert but should there not be a way to tag a thread so it would appear in both? The idea being that hand tool making threads would remain in the Neander forum but would simultaneously exist in the Shop Made Tool Forum. Perhaps this is something the OP could do or something available to moderators if a thread seems like it would be valuable to share.

From experience with another "bulletin board" having a post in two different areas can create problems. If the responses to a thread aren't also duplicated across both forums there can be two very different accountings of a process. Also unlinked threads of the same subject can upset someone who just took a half hour to craft a response only to find someone else also spent time to come up with the same response in another area. It gets old fast causing some to not bother with a response.

Another potential problem would be something we often see here when someone asks about creating a dado we come up with numerous different ways to make a dado. This came up recently when someone asked about buying a dado plane. If we were in a shared forum surely some of the power tool users would suggest a router. Then one would likely chime in about "a dado stack" for the table saw.

To me it seems There would be very little interest from a primarily power tool user in how George Wilson or David Weaver makes a plane. They likely are not interested in making a plane tote or a build thread on a back saw.


So, IF one should post a PIP of...say a small table that is 50-50 handtool/power tool build, WHERE does to "Elite" say to post this

Steven, there is a place for posting "Projects In Progress" if one wants it in a "special place."

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?29-Woodworking-Projects

For my projects even though a bandsaw, drill press, power sander or lathe are often used they still get posted here. To me it is no more elitist than having a favorite restaurant or watering hole.

It also seems there is some conflict as to what is meant by neander, galoot or even hand tool worker. Maybe someone in the extreme would even rule out having electric lights in the shop. Personally if someone has a table saw and still wants to be considered a neander it doesn't bother me.

I think a few members have left us over such tiring arguments of who is right or wrong.

Some folks are more sensitive than others. The original poster of this thread has mentioned feeling ridiculed by some of the responses. He thought he had a great idea but somehow the implementation didn't bring pats on the back nor cheers of joy and adulation.

I just hope he doesn't abandon us over the response he received.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Is anyone even suggesting the a Mod move their posts? No? Then why the debate about it? Or, is Rumour Control behind all the hub-bub? IF someone wants to move a post of theirs, fine. Not one thing about the mods doing for them, that I remember seeing. Might be a case that IF you want a post of yours moved, YOU have to do it, NOT the Mods.

Browbeat? Ah, ....nope. Have fun the way YOU want to, I'm having fun the way I want to. Now, it seems I have a finish to do to a table. Might be more interesting subject than this is.....

[Steve Voigt]

I'm going to start one more thread, probably tomorrow or so - to build a coffin smoother properly out of cocobolo (a little more properly than the last). It will be in this forum, precise in detail, and putting it here is a calculated decision and it will take me a lot of extra time vs. just making the plane and keeping it to myself. I hope that anyone who has the same questions I had gains from it. I have zero interest in the discussion going any other direction - I'd rather it involve three ardent fanatics of plane design than 60 people who would rather use a boring bevel up plane.


Dave, I'm looking forward to seeing that.
A while back, you posted a thread showing some of your vintage English planes. As a direct result of the back and forth we had in that thread, and the pictures you posted, I was able to figure out the last missing piece (for me) of how to engineer the mouth of a double iron woodie. I think you had the same realizations. This was a huge thing for me. It's something that can't be found in Whelan or any other book, and can't even be found on most vintage, especially American, planes. The interesting thing is that it didn't come in a thread on tool building at all; the thread was about using and purchasing old tools. It just goes to show the tight relationship, as Kees already said, between threads on building planes, using planes, and collecting planes. (or spokeshaves, saws, whatever)

[Pat Barry]

I'm going to start one more thread, probably tomorrow or so - to build a coffin smoother properly out of cocobolo (a little more properly than the last). It will be in this forum, precise in detail, and putting it here is a calculated decision and it will take me a lot of extra time vs. just making the plane and keeping it to myself. I hope that anyone who has the same questions I had gains from it. I have zero interest in the discussion going any other direction - I'd rather it involve three ardent fanatics of plane design than 60 people who would rather use a boring bevel up plane.
I too, am looking forward to your new thread Dave. I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to have a subcategory to the Neanderthal Haven, focused on plane design. It would provide a dedicated location to post about projects like this, perhaps akin to the Musical Instrument forum.

[Pat Barry]

If I had my choice I'd like to see a hybrid woodworking forum.
If we weren't so inclined to be parochial then it would just be a big ol woodworking forum and we wouldn't need the fancy, and non-descript, "hybrid" term at all.

[Daniel Rode]

If we weren't so inclined to be parochial then it would just be a big ol woodworking forum and we wouldn't need the fancy, and non-descript, "hybrid" term at all.

Perhaps people in the General Woodworking forum do discuss hand tools in some form or another but how am I to wade through 100 threads about routers, tables saws and band saws to find some mention of using a plane or chisel? The signal to noise ratio is far, far too low for me.

Perhaps, a forum concerned with building furniture would be a better choice. More of a focus on the craft and less on the equipment would suit me. It's like photography. I'm far more interested in composition than cameras. Tough to sell ad space for composition.

[Judson Green]

Perhaps people in the General Woodworking forum do discuss hand tools in some form or another but how am I to wade through 100 threads about routers, tables saws and band saws to find some mention of using a plane or chisel? The signal to noise ratio is far, far too low for me.

Perhaps, a forum concerned with building furniture would be a better choice. More of a focus on the craft and less on the equipment would suit me. It's like photography. I'm far more interested in composition than cameras. Tough to sell ad space for composition.


I'm in the general forum occasionally and if a hand tool question gets posted there its usually not too long before it gets moved here.

There is a projects forum.

[David Weaver]

Dave, I'm looking forward to seeing that.
A while back, you posted a thread showing some of your vintage English planes. As a direct result of the back and forth we had in that thread, and the pictures you posted, I was able to figure out the last missing piece (for me) of how to engineer the mouth of a double iron woodie. I think you had the same realizations. This was a huge thing for me. It's something that can't be found in Whelan or any other book, and can't even be found on most vintage, especially American, planes. The interesting thing is that it didn't come in a thread on tool building at all; the thread was about using and purchasing old tools. It just goes to show the tight relationship, as Kees already said, between threads on building planes, using planes, and collecting planes. (or spokeshaves, saws, whatever)

It's definitely all interconnected. you can buy 10 old coffin smoothers before you learn what to look for and then buy one and get it. The junkers can be reconfigured to some extent (with inserts, with a supplemental metal sole, with a new wedge, etc) to work well, but when all is said and done, they're not worth anything if you ever decide you don't want them. I was never able to buy proper planes until I had one and was able to study why it worked the way it worked.

It's such a small difference cosmetically between a plane that works well and one that doesn't. That buying binge left me with a pile of planes that I will probably cut most of to pieces and just sell off the irons. It got a little out of control!! (I won't cut up the nice properly made planes, of course).

Those little detail discussions are what I come here for, to bounce things off of people that are also enthusiastic about trying to do something just right (even though my workmanship isn't quite up to "just right" levels, knowing what to do is still important), and that specific question - "how do I need to cut the bits and pieces in a coffin smoother or any double iron wooden plane to get it to feed right without having a wide open mouth". I just don't know where else you can get that stuff.

[Moses Yoder]

Is anyone even suggesting the a Mod move their posts? No? Then why the debate about it? Or, is Rumour Control behind all the hub-bub? IF someone wants to move a post of theirs, fine. Not one thing about the mods doing for them, that I remember seeing. Might be a case that IF you want a post of yours moved, YOU have to do it, NOT the Mods.

Browbeat? Ah, ....nope. Have fun the way YOU want to, I'm having fun the way I want to. Now, it seems I have a finish to do to a table. Might be more interesting subject than this is.....

Read much? Or has it been so long since the first post that you have forgotten what the discussion is about? I would suggest you read the initial post that this thread started with. I will be ignoring any further comments in this thread. Must say I am looking forward to the Weaver Creek plane build.

[Don Huffer]

withdrawing my post due to no one bothering to answer

[Pat Barry]

I will be ignoring any further comments in this thread. Un-necessary extra verbiage.

[Tom Stenzel]

Looking through the neander forum there's plenty of posts about metal working, shaping and heat treating irons and chisels. Yet our Ever Watchful Moderator hasn't found it necessary to move these to the long existing metalworking forum. I for one am grateful for that as the information is typically pretty focused.

I think that fretting the neander projects will be moved and scattered around SMC is premature.

Myself, I'm on the fence about this. It seems like a good idea to have a home made tool forum but then it's Yet Another Forum to wade through. I'm not sure if I'll remember to read it more than once a month.

Building a workbench-shouldn't that part of the Workshop forum? There'll always be some fuzziness about where things belong. But I wouldn't think of looking for a neander bench build there.
-Tom

[steven c newman]

The project mention above is now posted for your enjoyment in it's proper forum, IF you would be so kind as to look. It even features legs turned on a lathe, a lathe I hadn't even seen in almost two years. Joinery is still hand cut mortise and tenon work. Hand planed stock. Amazing what one can do with just old Barn Siding boards....


I think I may have a source for some Beech, and IF I can season it just enough, I might try to make a hand plane from it. Just a hobby to me, though, so no real rush. On the Disabled List, due to an injured back, right leg is acting funny. May have to get a fix for it....

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Missed this. Don't know if it's really anything worth adding, and I do generally agree with others, that the content here ought stay here, but a couple thoughts:

There's really two "phases" to any thread, in my mind; the initial phase, where's it's a vibrant, on-going discussion, and the "archived" phase, where the thread has gone "quiet", but remains a valuable resource to folks after the fact. For instance, David's drawer-bottom-grooving plane thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214301-Time-to-build-two-quickie-drawer-grooving-planes-step-by-step), which was both a how-to and very instructional, and developed into a five-page discussion, hasn't been posted to since March, and is now on the 20th page of the Neanderthal Haven.

Had that thread (and the associated threads) been yanked from here while we were learning, discussing and sharing, that would have been a little frustrating. Now that it's well off the front page, I'm less likely to be annoyed. Maybe being in another forum makes it easier for someone to stumble across.

But that assumes a lot of folks are reading/skimming through forums like a big table-of-contents. Are people really doing it like that? I don't, but maybe others do. I certainly browse the most recent threads, or the threads since I've been here last like that, but I don't browse very far back like that.

Once something is far enough back, it's the sort of thing I either find by searching, (i.e., I want to make a grooving plane, so I look for threads) or I don't know I want that solution, but I ask about it here, and someone says "hey - check out this old thread by Dave; it's a quick way to get what you want done a lot easier", and gives me a link.

That's actually brings up a big question - do links still function if a thread gets moved? If Dave's drawer-bottom-grooving-plane thread I linked to above gets moved, does my link above still point to the thread? What if someone mentions the thread in the outside world, on blog or something, and the thread gets moved. Does it still work? I'm assuming vBulletin just links the post number to a forum automagically, and it's fine, but I have to ask.

I also wonder about the utility of the shop-made tools forum if it takes off. Right now it's got 9 threads. (Interestingly enough, it looks like one was moved back to the Turner's Forum) If it ends up the size of the other forums over time, though, I'm not sure it has as much utility. If a thread is on the 30th page here, or the 10th page here, it still feels effectively "buried" to me, and more apt to be found via the search.


If we feel the original info may be of value to the new forum, but want the original thread in place, what's the forum ettiquitte on posting a thread with simply a link to the original? I.E., leave a plane-building thread here, and post a thread in the other forum titled "building a rabbet plane" (or whatever) that simply contains a link to the thread back here. Is that a no-no? The thread in the new forum could be locked to push all discussion to the original thread.

What about when a thread currently gets moved (like someone mis-posts something that should be in the classifieds, for instance) and the thread title stays in the original forum, with a little wrapped arrow around the thread icon: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/statusicon/thread_moved-30.png Can that stay forever, rather than the limited time it appears to remain right now? Do they move up and down as the thread has activity, or do they get pushed down by other threads in the original forum? If it's not foreseen that the shop tools forum is apt to grow large, perhaps moving the thread twice (from here to the shop tools forum, and then back) would leave that "moved" icon in the Shop Tools forum, while preserving the original thread in the Haven?

Just my thoughts, i guess, so if this is going to be the new system going forward and threads are going to be moved, of how to make the system more amenable to those that prefer the status quo.


I'll also add there had been some mention of the difficulty of finding some things, I will say that I don't use the search function here anymore - maybe it's a little better now, but it didn't always work for me. I now just go to Google and type something in like, "making a plow plane site:sawmillcreek.org" to get Google results just from here and seems to work quite well.

[Jim Koepke]

Joshua,

Good post.

My only comment is about the SMC search function. It was good then got strange and now is back to pretty good.

I just searched > weaver groove plane < here on SMC and it goes to Google like this > weaver groove plane site:www.sawmillcreek.org <. It is doing pretty much what you described. David's plane is the fifth one down.

Searching > drawer grooving plane < brings it up to the top.

Searching is almost an art in itself.

jtk

[Judson Green]

Odd that a shopmade tool got moved out of the shopmade forum.